Cash for Clunkers went bankrupt after four days

[Mr Tick]

Use cars.gov and lose control of your files??

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bWs12ccbOiE

What yall think?

[thegodfather]

All I hear is complaints from the opposition but no answers. I'm waiting for someone to come up with a real alternative to stimulate the economy. You may not like what Obama is doing, but at least he's doing something. Something he thinks will stimulate the economy. Only time will tell if it's effective.

Fact remains, that the cash for clunkers has worked. People are trading in their gas guzzlers for more economical cars, causing these car companies to have to manufacter more cars, keeping people employed. It's caused banks to lend money. Wait to see what happens. It's been 6 months, fellas. And I know many of you thought our country would implode, but it hasn't happened and I don't think it will.

1) Eliminate central banking and fractional reserve banking. Slowly phase out the Federal Reserve bank over 1-2 years. Artificial manipulation of interest rates is responsible for bubbles. Setting interest rates below what the market can tolerate causes the economy to eventually correct itself, as we are seeing now.

* Interest rates should be set by competition between lenders.

* Fractional reserve banking is also responsible for this. The last time I checked, banks were being held to a 1:30 reserve ratio. That means for every dollar someone deposits into an account, they can loan out $30 with $1 of physical money backing it. The problems of this system are self-evident. At the least the reserve ratio should be greatly reduced.

* Congress needs to take back control over the ability to coin money, as it was originally stated in the Constitution, and as it has not been amended since, making the actions of the Federal Reserve illegal.

2) Cut all Federal agencies and programs at least 50% across the board. Eliminate wasteful and INEFFECTIVE AGENCIES, such as Dept.Of Education, Dept.Of Homeland Security, Dept.Of Agriculture, Food&Drug Administration, etc, etc, etc. YOU HAVE TO CUT SPENDING! Cutting spending to year 2000 levels, would allow us to eliminate the income tax on wages completely.

3) Repeal the 16th amendment and ELIMINATE THE INCOME TAX ON WAGES. The traditional meaning of income, was profits&gains. Income was usually reserved for businesses and corporations. A profit is when you have a surplus. When you go to work for someone, you are making an EXCHANGE, your time&labor for X amount of money per hour. It is impossible for the government or anyone else to delineate which part of your hour of work is an exchange, and which part is profits&gains. Citizens would have an extra 18%-39.5% of their income to put into the economy. Spending stimulates the economy. Additionally, the only two forms of taxation permitted under the Constitution were apportioned taxes and excise taxes.

4) Eliminate all Federal drug laws, decriminalization across the board. Allow states to determine their own drug laws, as they are Constitutionally permitted to. Roughly 50% of all incarcerated persons in Federal prisons are serving time for Federal drug crimes. This amounts to approximately 800,000 people at a cost of $35,000/yr PER INMATE, to the tax payer. Additionally, agencies like the Drug Enforcement Administration have enormous budgets for the "war on drugs," which can be better spent fighting REAL CRIME like rape, murder, and robbery, instead of trying to penalize people for unpopular personal decisions. Drug laws is nothing more than LEGISLATED MORALITY. Additionally, States who choose to tax these substances can turn a profit therefore passing on the savings to the tax payer, or by providing a service to the tax payer.



I wrote a 20 page thesis on this topic. So I'm giving you an abstract basically. My paper goes into very thorough detail, with tons of data to back up each of my points, and there are many more. If we just do the FOUR things that I pointed out, THAT ALONE is enough to get this country out of the economic downturn and get the economy really working again.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

1) Eliminate central banking and fractional reserve banking. Slowly phase out the Federal Reserve bank over 1-2 years. Artificial manipulation of interest rates is responsible for bubbles. Setting interest rates below what the market can tolerate causes the economy to eventually correct itself, as we are seeing now.

* Interest rates should be set by competition between lenders.

* Fractional reserve banking is also responsible for this. The last time I checked, banks were being held to a 1:30 reserve ratio. That means for every dollar someone deposits into an account, they can loan out $30 with $1 of physical money backing it. The problems of this system are self-evident. At the least the reserve ratio should be greatly reduced.

* Congress needs to take back control over the ability to coin money, as it was originally stated in the Constitution, and as it has not been amended since, making the actions of the Federal Reserve illegal.

2) Cut all Federal agencies and programs at least 50% across the board. Eliminate wasteful and INEFFECTIVE AGENCIES, such as Dept.Of Education, Dept.Of Homeland Security, Dept.Of Agriculture, Food&Drug Administration, etc, etc, etc. YOU HAVE TO CUT SPENDING! Cutting spending to year 2000 levels, would allow us to eliminate the income tax on wages completely.

3) Repeal the 16th amendment and ELIMINATE THE INCOME TAX ON WAGES. The traditional meaning of income, was profits&gains. Income was usually reserved for businesses and corporations. A profit is when you have a surplus. When you go to work for someone, you are making an EXCHANGE, your time&labor for X amount of money per hour. It is impossible for the government or anyone else to delineate which part of your hour of work is an exchange, and which part is profits&gains. Citizens would have an extra 18%-39.5% of their income to put into the economy. Spending stimulates the economy. Additionally, the only two forms of taxation permitted under the Constitution were apportioned taxes and excise taxes.

4) Eliminate all Federal drug laws, decriminalization across the board. Allow states to determine their own drug laws, as they are Constitutionally permitted to. Roughly 50% of all incarcerated persons in Federal prisons are serving time for Federal drug crimes. This amounts to approximately 800,000 people at a cost of $35,000/yr PER INMATE, to the tax payer. Additionally, agencies like the Drug Enforcement Administration have enormous budgets for the "war on drugs," which can be better spent fighting REAL CRIME like rape, murder, and robbery, instead of trying to penalize people for unpopular personal decisions. Drug laws is nothing more than LEGISLATED MORALITY. Additionally, States who choose to tax these substances can turn a profit therefore passing on the savings to the tax payer, or by providing a service to the tax payer.



I wrote a 20 page thesis on this topic. So I'm giving you an abstract basically. My paper goes into very thorough detail, with tons of data to back up each of my points, and there are many more. If we just do the FOUR things that I pointed out, THAT ALONE is enough to get this country out of the economic downturn and get the economy really working again.

boom!

[SMCengineer]

All I hear is complaints from the opposition but no answers. I'm waiting for someone to come up with a real alternative to stimulate the economy. You may not like what Obama is doing, but at least he's doing something. Something he thinks will stimulate the economy. Only time will tell if it's effective.

“Stimulating the economy” is simply empty political rhetoric and nothing else. Time is not the factor that will determine if this or any program that Obama or Bush has tried will be successful. The laws of economics and human nature can and will suffice.

Fact remains, that the cash for clunkers has worked. People are trading in their gas guzzlers for more economical cars, causing these car companies to have to manufacter more cars, keeping people employed. It's caused banks to lend money. Wait to see what happens. It's been 6 months, fellas. And I know many of you thought our country would implode, but it hasn't happened and I don't think it will.

In what way is cash for clunkers a success? The fact that it’s taking fully working paid off cars, off of the road and out of the market and then destroying them, while simultaneously giving away money as an incentive and as corporate welfare, is absolutely asinine, especially during a recession. There are people, myself included, who can only afford the ‘clunkers’ that are being destroyed. There’s no telling what those cars or even their parts may have been used for. This is NOT in any way a new or different policy. This is very much the same Keynesian policies that failed during the Great Depression. What you just explained is the Broken Window fallacy (http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm) to the T! It’s otherwise known as opportunity costs or “that which is unseen.” This kind of reminds of Hoover and Roosevelt plowing crops, killing livestock, and, subsequently, paying farmers to plow crops all in the name of raising food prices, meanwhile millions were starving!

[BgMc31]

1) Eliminate central banking and fractional reserve banking. Slowly phase out the Federal Reserve bank over 1-2 years. Artificial manipulation of interest rates is responsible for bubbles. Setting interest rates below what the market can tolerate causes the economy to eventually correct itself, as we are seeing now.

* Interest rates should be set by competition between lenders.

* Fractional reserve banking is also responsible for this. The last time I checked, banks were being held to a 1:30 reserve ratio. That means for every dollar someone deposits into an account, they can loan out $30 with $1 of physical money backing it. The problems of this system are self-evident. At the least the reserve ratio should be greatly reduced.

* Congress needs to take back control over the ability to coin money, as it was originally stated in the Constitution, and as it has not been amended since, making the actions of the Federal Reserve illegal.

2) Cut all Federal agencies and programs at least 50% across the board. Eliminate wasteful and INEFFECTIVE AGENCIES, such as Dept.Of Education, Dept.Of Homeland Security, Dept.Of Agriculture, Food&Drug Administration, etc, etc, etc. YOU HAVE TO CUT SPENDING! Cutting spending to year 2000 levels, would allow us to eliminate the income tax on wages completely.

3) Repeal the 16th amendment and ELIMINATE THE INCOME TAX ON WAGES. The traditional meaning of income, was profits&gains. Income was usually reserved for businesses and corporations. A profit is when you have a surplus. When you go to work for someone, you are making an EXCHANGE, your time&labor for X amount of money per hour. It is impossible for the government or anyone else to delineate which part of your hour of work is an exchange, and which part is profits&gains. Citizens would have an extra 18%-39.5% of their income to put into the economy. Spending stimulates the economy. Additionally, the only two forms of taxation permitted under the Constitution were apportioned taxes and excise taxes.

4) Eliminate all Federal drug laws, decriminalization across the board. Allow states to determine their own drug laws, as they are Constitutionally permitted to. Roughly 50% of all incarcerated persons in Federal prisons are serving time for Federal drug crimes. This amounts to approximately 800,000 people at a cost of $35,000/yr PER INMATE, to the tax payer. Additionally, agencies like the Drug Enforcement Administration have enormous budgets for the "war on drugs," which can be better spent fighting REAL CRIME like rape, murder, and robbery, instead of trying to penalize people for unpopular personal decisions. Drug laws is nothing more than LEGISLATED MORALITY. Additionally, States who choose to tax these substances can turn a profit therefore passing on the savings to the tax payer, or by providing a service to the tax payer.



I wrote a 20 page thesis on this topic. So I'm giving you an abstract basically. My paper goes into very thorough detail, with tons of data to back up each of my points, and there are many more. If we just do the FOUR things that I pointed out, THAT ALONE is enough to get this country out of the economic downturn and get the economy really working again.

I agree with your post there! I would be interested in reading your thesis as well if you don't mind emailing it to me (PM plz). But, can you give me some arguments that would be approved by any of the two parties. My point was the republican party has yet to offer any real rebutes to Obama's plans. I have heard your arguments before from some Libertarian friends of mine, and I whole heartedly agree, but I'm a realist and I know that none of the above proposals stand a snow balls chance in hell of passing.

“Stimulating the economy” is simply empty political rhetoric and nothing else. Time is not the factor that will determine if this or any program that Obama or Bush has tried will be successful. The laws of economics and human nature can and will suffice.

In what way is cash for clunkers a success? The fact that it’s taking fully working paid off cars, off of the road and out of the market and then destroying them, while simultaneously giving away money as an incentive and as corporate welfare, is absolutely asinine, especially during a recession. There are people, myself included, who can only afford the ‘clunkers’ that are being destroyed. There’s no telling what those cars or even their parts may have been used for. This is NOT in any way a new or different policy. This is very much the same Keynesian policies that failed during the Great Depression. What you just explained is the Broken Window fallacy (http://freedomkeys.com/window.htm) to the T! It’s otherwise known as opportunity costs or “that which is unseen.” This kind of reminds of Hoover and Roosevelt plowing crops, killing livestock, and, subsequently, paying farmers to plow crops all in the name of raising food prices, meanwhile millions were starving!

I doubt those cars are being destoyed Blome. They are probably being dismantled and sold off for parts. Corporate welfare...maybe, but it also stimulates the car companies by selling more cars causing more cars to be built, thus keeping people employed (both car builders and car sellers). Is it the best answer...NO? But its still, SOMETHING, right?

[BgMc31]

Bush never manipulated the media. All news outlets were totally against him including the traditional left wing stations except fox which covered him fairly either good or bad, just the truth and nothing more. With Obama he is not manipulating the media, rather the media decides to not report the news but their radical views and Obama happens to be their poster boy. Obama is making stupid decisions left and right and including the cutting of spending on military, why??? He is a nut case I hate that fool.

The absurdity of that comment doesn't even deserve a response.

[thegodfather]

I agree with your post there! I would be interested in reading your thesis as well if you don't mind emailing it to me (PM plz). But, can you give me some arguments that would be approved by any of the two parties. My point was the republican party has yet to offer any real rebutes to Obama's plans. I have heard your arguments before from some Libertarian friends of mine, and I whole heartedly agree, but I'm a realist and I know that none of the above proposals stand a snow balls chance in hell of passing.



I doubt those cars are being destoyed Blome. They are probably being dismantled and sold off for parts. Corporate welfare...maybe, but it also stimulates the car companies by selling more cars causing more cars to be built, thus keeping people employed (both car builders and car sellers). Is it the best answer...NO? But its still, SOMETHING, right?

I would love to send it to you in its entirety, however, it would be way too easy to identify who I am from a google search because it has been quoted in one of my professors research that's published.


One of the problems with cash for clunkers, or giving tax rebates if your purchase a GM car, is that it unfairly advantages GM against the other automakers. If the government provides an incentive to the consumer to purchase a GM over a Honda, Lexus, Ford, Toyota, etc, and so on, then it has unfairly advantaged GM and further interfered with the free market. Also, when government takes something over, it tends to want to advantage it's own pet project over the rest of the competition because it wants it to make money. This is not fair to the competing car manufactures.

Additionally, government is subsidizing smaller more gas friendly cars because it thinks that is the future. Government has proven time and time again that it cannot predict the future and is the worst at picking future technologies and innovations. Just look at what a disaster the Ethanol subsidies have been. Government gave huge subsidies for it, caused a god damn food shortage in some countries, and in the end we found that it takes almost as much energy to product the shit as you get out of it.

The free market will always find the most efficient and productive technology. The free market is the best predictor of future innovations, because it will always seek the most economical, efficient, and consumer demanded product. American car buyers DONT WANT TO BUY small compact gas friendly cars. Americans like their SUVs and big bodied vehicles. There are numerous problems with the cash for clunkers, only a few of which I've hit on. I don't want to beat a dead horse, because it also involves conflicting philosophy's.

One of the biggest problems with the economic situation, is that politicians always want to "DO" something. However, most often the problems we face are BECAUSE of politicians "DOING" something, and most often the best solutions are to DO LESS, A LOT LESS. Instead of taxing, tax less. Instead of more laws, more arrests, more prison time, the answer is LESS LAWS, LESS PRISON TIME, etc. Regarding regulation of markets. Regulating markets often leads to unforeseen problems, and politicians usual answer is MORE REGULATION. It is so asinine, so against everything logical, that it boggles the mind. Often the answer is LESS REGULATION, or NO REGULATION. Of course, the reality is that there is a lot of political capital to be gained from "DOING" something, even if you f**k shit up more than it was.

[Immortal Soldier]

Cash for clunkers is nothing more then a huge publicity stunt gone horribly wrong. How can the president straight face say the program was a great success, let me tell you, he is the master of all deceit. The program was supposed to be funded till November the 1st, but is wiped out in four days? What happens when they issue 2 billion more? The program lasts for eight days now? The true question is why is Obama in such a frenzy to spend so much money for every last little thing; he is inept and incapable of explaining anything with any detail and his ignorance on the subjects which he carefully chooses to speak publicly about are staged. The guy can not even give a speech without a teleprompter for goodness sakes. All I'm saying is that Obama is so good at mesmerizing and deceiving the people with beautiful lies that it makes you wonder what his bigger plan is, I think it is something of disaster and only time will tell.

Yeah you are right Obama was the only president who used teleprompters, what a moron for not having an entire 30 minute speech memorized

[IM708]

Bush never manipulated the media. All news outlets were totally against him including the traditional left wing stations except fox which covered him fairly either good or bad, just the truth and nothing more. With Obama he is not manipulating the media, rather the media decides to not report the news but their radical views and Obama happens to be their poster boy. Obama is making stupid decisions left and right and including the cutting of spending on military, why??? He is a nut case I hate that fool.

Cash for clunkers is nothing more then a huge publicity stunt gone horribly wrong. How can the president straight face say the program was a great success, let me tell you, he is the master of all deceit. The program was supposed to be funded till November the 1st, but is wiped out in four days? What happens when they issue 2 billion more? The program lasts for eight days now? The true question is why is Obama in such a frenzy to spend so much money for every last little thing; he is inept and incapable of explaining anything with any detail and his ignorance on the subjects which he carefully chooses to speak publicly about are staged. The guy can not even give a speech without a teleprompter for goodness sakes. All I'm saying is that Obama is so good at mesmerizing and deceiving the people with beautiful lies that it makes you wonder what his bigger plan is, I think it is something of disaster and only time will tell.

Can you please just leave this thread? I feel my IQ dropping when I read your comments.

[BG]

^^^^I think George W. Bush, single-handedly, accomplished that himself.

X 2 No doubt !!!!

[SMCengineer]

[B]I agree with your post there! I would be interested in reading your thesis as well if you don't mind emailing it to me (PM plz). But, can you give me some arguments that would be approved by any of the two parties. My point was the republican party has yet to offer any real rebutes to Obama's plans. I have heard your arguments before from some Libertarian friends of mine, and I whole heartedly agree, but I'm a realist and I know that none of the above proposals stand a snow balls chance in hell of passing.

Not entirely true, there's legislation pending to audit the Fed (HR1207) that's garnered a near veto proof majority in the house and 20 cosponsors in the Senate. If that passes, which if it ever gets brought to the floor for a vote it will, then you can bet that there's gonna be some significant changes to the Fed.

I doubt those cars are being destoyed Blome. They are probably being dismantled and sold off for parts. Corporate welfare...maybe, but it also stimulates the car companies by selling more cars causing more cars to be built, thus keeping people employed (both car builders and car sellers). Is it the best answer...NO? But its still, SOMETHING, right?

The cars are indeed being destroyed. The oil is drained from them and is being replaced with a sodium silicate solution and being run until they seize! In fact, one of the biggest complaints is that it's helping the big corporations, while intentionally hurting the parts stores that are already struggling with dozens of bankruptcies this year! That is the definition of corporatism. Something most leftists claim to be against, yet don't fully understand. Read it for yourself (from a not so conservative site, I might add):
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_246467.html.

However, lets consider for a moment that they weren't being destroyed and, instead, being sold off for parts. Would you not agree then that the stated goal of taking gas guzzlers off of the road is not fully being met? Indeed, there's no way it could be when those same parts would be used to preserve the same gas guzzlers that haven't been taken off the road.

As for doing SOMETHING, John Maynard Keynes said it best when he, in all seriousness, wrote in his General Theory (the bible to leading mainstream economists like Paul Krugman and Brad Delong):
"If the Treasury were to fill old bottles with banknotes, bury them at suitable depths in disused coalmines which are then filled up to the surface with town rubbish, and leave it to private enterprise on well-tried principles of laissez faire to dig the notes up again . . . there need be no more unemployment. . . . It would indeed be more sensible to build houses and the like; but if there are political and practical difficulties in the way of this, the above would be better than nothing."

[Kratos]

innovation will save the enviroment, not a few extra miles per gallon
smaller more fuel efficent cars are not the future

first of all cars, light trucks and SUV's combined represent 28% of greenhouse gas emissions.

Second of all, we're going to burn all the gas until it's gone, end of story.

[Kratos]

One of the problems with cash for clunkers, or giving tax rebates if your purchase a GM car, is that it unfairly advantages GM against the other automakers. If the government provides an incentive to the consumer to purchase a GM over a Honda, Lexus, Ford, Toyota, etc, and so on, then it has unfairly advantaged GM and further interfered with the free market. Also, when government takes something over, it tends to want to advantage it's own pet project over the rest of the competition because it wants it to make money. This is not fair to the competing car manufactures.

.

In my town the toyota and honda dealers have 150 cars out each under the cash for clunkers program. The Hyundai dealer is cleaning up. We're not giving GM a leg up right now, I can promise you.

[Kratos]

Yeah, go research the F-22, the program was becoming a coffin call, more planes were going down and problems surfacing in the aircraft TOWARDS THE END OF THE PROGRAM then in the beginning. Hence why Obama halted all flights until an investigation was put it.

The F-22 is a "Hollywood plane" pure and simple, it looks nice and has all the gadgets, but what is its use? Who have we fought or going to fight that will be able to challenge us in the air effectively? Russia and China are years away from releasing their new fighter jets and a conflict with them in the near future is slim to none.

The plane itself is a quagmire, for every hour of flight it needs 30 hours of maintenance think about it the plane is as tough as Paris Hilton. It needs more work to survive than Joan Rivers' face.

The F-35 is a cheaper yet effective alternative for the current climate, it's not like terrorists are magically going to develop an air force. The F-22 has not seen combat in a while and probably won't for a while.

The F-16 was and still is the ideal image of the airforce it is versatile/cheaper/effective and still one of the best fighter aircrafts in the world if not the best (but lets not go there because then it becomes a debate over the new Russian Migs vs F-16's)

I know the problems with the F-22. There is a diffence between unintentionally developing an expensive airplane with problems, then flushing money down the toilet. Sometimes innovation isn't a straight line. They're made by the same company...no? So you don't think much of the devolopment costs for the JSF carry over to the f-22 program? Look at the photo, can you even tell which one is which?

If they can solve the cost of flight hour issue, it will be the superior fighter plane and the best plane in a dogfight we've ever built. Do they need it? prolly not, but development began far before Bush.

[thegodfather]

In my town the toyota and honda dealers have 150 cars out each under the cash for clunkers program. The Hyundai dealer is cleaning up. We're not giving GM a leg up right now, I can promise you.

I was referring to the talk of giving out tax rebates for purchasing GM vehicles, not the cash for clunkers program. But both programs advantage one sector of the private sector over another.

[monkeyman33]

hey ironmaiden, take a hike! I feel my IQ dropping when I read your posts and that is why I just ignore you. Immortal soldier, Obama is a douche bag and you know it, this guy if he is so smart and so intelligent can not even give a three minute speech without a teleprompter let alone thirty minutes. Bush was way more intelligent then Obama even though Obama is all gloss on the surface and a stage act. Nothing more than a dog and pony show with Robert Gibbs dumb ass always trying to defend the pres for his ineptness to explain anything in detail.

[monkeyman33]

Whoever wants to eat that stuff up go ahead it just will make you another drone of Obama's, use some common sense like Glenn Beck would say.

[Immortal Soldier]

I know the problems with the F-22. There is a diffence between unintentionally developing an expensive airplane with problems, then flushing money down the toilet. Sometimes innovation isn't a straight line. They're made by the same company...no? So you don't think much of the devolopment costs for the JSF carry over to the f-22 program? Look at the photo, can you even tell which one is which?

If they can solve the cost of flight hour issue, it will be the superior fighter plane and the best plane in a dogfight we've ever built. Do they need it? prolly not, but development began far before Bush.

Yes, I can tell which one is which. The bottom is clearly the F-22, the differences are more than noticeable to anyone with an idea of what an F-22 looks like.

The JSF is not necessarily the better of the two fighters, but it is the more economical version. Do you think the military really wants to have airplanes that take over 2 days of repairs and maintenance after they were in the air for only 2 hours?

No, this plane is made for dogfighting and I can tell you something if this its not going to survive if it is a prima donna that needs 30 hours of maintenance for one hour in the fvcking air. Not because its not strong enough because it is, but because it has no endurance, no ability to accept wear and tear.

The military is taking the right approach, canceling the F-22 at around 230 planes and deciding to order some 2,300+ F-35's.

[yucon92]

Whoever wants to eat that stuff up go ahead it just will make you another drone of Obama's, use some common sense like Glenn Beck would say.

i like your point of view its like no one can see what a disaster this country is gonna be in because of that retard

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Obama will fail, but will still end up looking good because Bush was such a joke.


Then again, Obama's approval rating is falling. I think he started in the high 60s, and now in the low 50s. Maybe there is a hope for the general public to get their dicks out of their asses.

But boy he is so funny and such a sweet talker. What a rockstar! I think I'll vote for him in 2012 because he is down to earth and "real"

[TITANIUM]

Interesting views.Immortal is actually, what I call book smart.Prone is a x-military(I presume, as myself), so we know how broken the system is.To know how corrupt the government is, you need to work for it.

The tax payers have the right to protest, but they are wasting there time.I have alot to say on this subject, actually too much.I believe in a good government and president.But, that is not how it went down.Obama's "slight of hand" used to get in office was executed brilliantly.But is far from a prize.

The Bush administration is not the only admin that screwed things up.I'm a Regan man myself. He was the last of a certain type of president.One which we will never see again.It was a honor to serve under that administration.

All things being fare, we can all agree with one thing, that we, as a people, do not like the way the government is running things.The whole thing is dirty.It's a long laundry list of shit.

Our forefathers new how a Constitution should be constructed.If what is going on now, took place 150 years ago, they would hang all of them for tyranny.

I'll catch shit on this post, but that's is what I exspect .I respect all of the opinions voiced here, that's the great thing about an open forum, you can voice your opinion.

After all, it's your first amendment........

[Narkissos]

yep, just like hitler..

Comparing Obama to Hitler is way off base, IMO!!!

It's worse than just 'off base' IMHO.

[thegodfather]

It's worse than just 'off base' IMHO.

Well, if Obama came to power after Hitler, he would not have prosecuted the Nazi's or the SS. Because in Obama's own words, the country needs to look forward not back, never mind all those pesky little war crimes that occurred for 8 years under the Bush regime. Who really gives a shit about torturing detainees, holding people for 5-7 years without a trial, and the 93 detainee deaths at Guantanamo which were ruled not from natural causes? Well, Obama certainly doesn't.

“it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution,” President Obama said in a statement released today.

So not only should we not prosecute war criminals, because after all they were just "following orders," as many of the war criminals in Nuremberg claimed, we should also ASSURE them they are off the hook for violating peoples human rights under the Constitution and International Law. Change? Reallyyyyyyyy............


Are you a US citizen?

[Kratos]

Yes, I can tell which one is which. The bottom is clearly the F-22, the differences are more than noticeable to anyone with an idea of what an F-22 looks like.
.

Namely the shape of the wings, fins, and indentation in the aircraft body for a second engine. You have to agree they are very similar aircraft.

The development cost of the raptor is 2/3 of the price. Lets wait to see long term data on f-35 performance, and see if they are delivered on budget to see if they are really cheaper.

The reason the Virgina class sub was developed at a huge cost was because the seawolf was too expensive to produce. Except somehow it ended up costing more per boat to make...go figure.

Anyway, the program had reached maturity. It was dead with or without Obama. The pentagon didn't want any more of them, plain and simple. That isn't going to stop them from spending 8 billion to upgrade the ones they have.

The only people who were fighting for it were congress-men in districts that had jobs at stake. Defense contractors learned a long time ago, the best way to make it difficult to cancel a program is to sprinkle jobs around the country.

To me saying they wasted money over here so we can't complain about the money they wasted over there is the wrong way to look at it. Complain about both.

[monkeyman33]

I do not think it extremely off base. Who knows what he is going to cook up in his tenure. He is weak on national security and the next few years look to be the most cynical in history with the proliferation of nukes in the mid east. What will Obama do if north korea sells a nuke to some terrorist group? Will he say, oh lets just go have some six party talks or some bs? All the while he just got done making a world tour as though he is some kind of rock star and apologizing for America and its long held beliefs; He is an extremely smart fool who has happened to perpetrate the largest scam ever and now everyone is starting to come out of this tranz he had them in. Good thing I seen through his bull crap from the beginning because I can have peace inside knowing I never supported this douche bag from jump.

[BgMc31]

Well, if Obama came to power after Hitler, he would not have prosecuted the Nazi's or the SS. Because in Obama's own words, the country needs to look forward not back, never mind all those pesky little war crimes that occurred for 8 years under the Bush regime. Who really gives a shit about torturing detainees, holding people for 5-7 years without a trial, and the 93 detainee deaths at Guantanamo which were ruled not from natural causes? Well, Obama certainly doesn't.

“it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution,” President Obama said in a statement released today.

So not only should we not prosecute war criminals, because after all they were just "following orders," as many of the war criminals in Nuremberg claimed, we should also ASSURE them they are off the hook for violating peoples human rights under the Constitution and International Law. Change? Reallyyyyyyyy............


Are you a US citizen?

Similar to how we didn't prosecute any of the Southern general's after the Civil War, right? We can't say for sure Obama would not have prosecuted the Nazi's after WWII. That was a different matter altogether.

Comparing Obama to Bush is just a low brow attempt to villify the man for being popular. It's way off based and insulting. I can understand not agreeing with the man's policies and such but stooping to name calling and ridiculous comparisons to probably the worst human being in human existence is a show of desperation.

[BgMc31]

I do not think it extremely off base. Who knows what he is going to cook up in his tenure. He is weak on national security and the next few years look to be the most cynical in history with the proliferation of nukes in the mid east. What will Obama do if north korea sells a nuke to some terrorist group? Will he say, oh lets just go have some six party talks or some bs? All the while he just got done making a world tour as though he is some kind of rock star and apologizing for America and its long held beliefs; He is an extremely smart fool who has happened to perpetrate the largest scam ever and now everyone is starting to come out of this tranz he had them in. Good thing I seen through his bull crap from the beginning because I can have peace inside knowing I never supported this douche bag from jump.

How is he weak on national security? Adding more forces to Afganistan proves that he is interested in stomping out real terrorists threats not made up ones like Bush. But of course you believe Bush never manipulated the media and he was more intelligent than Obama. So it really makes no sense debating with you. It's obvious you don't have a clue about much.

[thegodfather]

I do not think it extremely off base. Who knows what he is going to cook up in his tenure. He is weak on national security and the next few years look to be the most cynical in history with the proliferation of nukes in the mid east. What will Obama do if north korea sells a nuke to some terrorist group? Will he say, oh lets just go have some six party talks or some bs? All the while he just got done making a world tour as though he is some kind of rock star and apologizing for America and its long held beliefs; He is an extremely smart fool who has happened to perpetrate the largest scam ever and now everyone is starting to come out of this tranz he had them in. Good thing I seen through his bull crap from the beginning because I can have peace inside knowing I never supported this douche bag from jump.

Are you serious dude? Did you even graduate high school? What is your educational/professional background?

People like you are the reason the Republican party look like such jackasses. Neo-conservative rhetoric and believing that America has the authority to be the f**king police force of the world. Who cares WHAT North Korea does? They are a sovereign nation, and they can do whatever they want so long as they do not directly threaten the national security of the MAINLAND of the United States of America. Please point to the section number or amendment in the Constitution that authorizes America to tell other countries what to do...can you do that? Of course you cant because it doesn't exist. The founding fathers of this country developed a policy of NON-INTERVENTIONISM, not to be confused with isolationism. Simply put, we have ALWAYS achieved more with trade and talks with other nations than we ever have in war. We supported Afghanistan and gave Saddam Hussein weapons, only for him to be our enemy 10 years later. Our friends one day are our enemies the next. It is BECAUSE we get so heavily involved in other countries affairs that we have the problems we do, and the hatred for our country that many people hold.

I bet you even believe that the Arab people hate us because "WE ARE FREE AND PROSPEROUS." Anyone who buys into that nonsense that Rush Limbaugh is proselytizing is a complete and utter moron and not someone I would take seriously for one second. The Arab people, and people in other countries, hate our country because we are responsible for killing MILLIONS of their friends and family. We have continuously meddled in their affairs for 70 some odd years, overthrowing their elected governments, and causing them hardship both economic and physical. Get a f**king clue.

He needs to apologize for America. I dont always blame America, but you know what crowd im not a part of? I'm not part of your crowd that believes you should blame America NEVER.

[BgMc31]

Obama will fail, but will still end up looking good because Bush was such a joke.


Then again, Obama's approval rating is falling. I think he started in the high 60s, and now in the low 50s. Maybe there is a hope for the general public to get their dicks out of their asses.

But boy he is so funny and such a sweet talker. What a rockstar! I think I'll vote for him in 2012 because he is down to earth and "real"

Just remember the republican idol, Ronald Reagan, enjoyed extremely high ratings initially, then his rating slump to around 48% early in his first term. From what I hear from republicans he is the greatest president ever.

[MuscleScience]

One thing I think that is overlooked about this program is that its getting cars off the road that may not really be road worthy. Most people do not know how to properly maintain a car nor do they care. Even if a car seems to drive fine you never know what could happen if the car is not being serviced regularly. I know this was probably not a big reason for it. Supposedly to cut green house gases. Coming from someone that nearly lost a friend because the person driving their car until wheels literally fell off and caused an accident that should have never happened, I think thats a success of sorts.

[SMCengineer]

One thing I think that is overlooked about this program is that its getting cars off the road that may not really be road worthy. Most people do not know how to properly maintain a car nor do they care. Even if a car seems to drive fine you never know what could happen if the car is not being serviced regularly. I know this was probably not a big reason for it. Supposedly to cut green house gases. Coming from someone that nearly lost a friend because the person driving their car until wheels literally fell off and caused an accident that should have never happened, I think thats a success of sorts.

I'm not sure how true that is. To be eligible for the program, you also have to be in a position of buying a brand new car, which indicates having at least several thousand dollars of expendable income (of course this program also incentivizes accruence of debt which introduces a set of new problems).

Generally, people who neglect the bare minimum service on their vehicle (tires, brakes, oil, etc) are only doing so because of a lack of money or other factors have priority over the vehicle (children, mortgage, food, etc.). This program would not help them. Of course, there are exceptions where people just don't care about their car, but that is not the majority. Typically, if someone is literally driving a 'clunker,' it would indicate to me at least, they are not in a position of buying a new car.

[Narkissos]

Are you a US citizen?

Do I need to be to have a. an opinion? b. an understanding of government and politics?

[thegodfather]

Do I need to be to have a. an opinion? b. an understanding of government and politics?

No, it was just a curiosity. I have a few friends from college who have dual citizenships from other countries. They have very interesting perspectives because they have vested interests in two different systems of government in some cases.

[monkeyman33]

Wow thegodfather you are such a bookworm, congrats! I have two bachelors degrees so thanks for the insult, but I do not take people like you serious anyways. You just think you have all the answers because you have some "friends" that have all this "knowledge" because they have seen two different types of government in action. You sound just like a typical liberal who does not know sh*t. People like you who stare at imminent destruction coming there way and do nothing because of their strong fuc*ed up beliefs and higher moral values. If north korea is making and selling nukes we have every right to do whatever we need to disarm those bastards for the safety of our country but others who do not have such resources to defend themselves, let me guess, you think the nuclear silos they have are being used for power plants? Get a clue you flaming goober, arabs hate us because we are all that they want to be but never will, rush limbaugh is the bomb as well as hannity, beck, oreilly, willard, etc.

[gixxerboy1]

Wow thegodfather you are such a bookworm, congrats! I have two bachelors degrees so thanks for the insult, but I do not take people like you serious anyways. You just think you have all the answers because you have some "friends" that have all this "knowledge" because they have seen two different types of government in action. You sound just like a typical liberal who does not know sh*t. People like you who stare at imminent destruction coming there way and do nothing because of their strong fuc*ed up beliefs and higher moral values. If north korea is making and selling nukes we have every right to do whatever we need to disarm those bastards for the safety of our country but others who do not have such resources to defend themselves, let me guess, you think the nuclear silos they have are being used for power plants? Get a clue you flaming goober, arabs hate us because we are all that they want to be but never will, rush limbaugh is the bomb as well as hannity, beck, oreilly, willard, etc.

What if we would have took that stance with Russia during the cold war?

[EndlessDreams]

On it's goal of reducing inefficient cars, I heard someone explain the plan as: crushing the cars using fuel, transporting the crushed cars on a freight train using fuel, shipping the metal over to China on a boat using fuel and finally melting the metal down so China can make Hummers (a company they just bought from us) and then selling them back to American consumers. I guess that's a success in the governments eyes?

I thought they blocked the sale of hummer???

On June 26, 2009 Chinese state radio announced that the bid by Sichuan Tengzhong to buy Hummer would be blocked on environmental grounds..

That is the last I heard so I wasnt sure if it was sold..

[MuscleScience]

Wow thegodfather you are such a bookworm, congrats! I have two bachelors degrees so thanks for the insult, but I do not take people like you serious anyways. You just think you have all the answers because you have some "friends" that have all this "knowledge" because they have seen two different types of government in action. You sound just like a typical liberal who does not know sh*t. People like you who stare at imminent destruction coming there way and do nothing because of their strong fuc*ed up beliefs and higher moral values. If north korea is making and selling nukes we have every right to do whatever we need to disarm those bastards for the safety of our country but others who do not have such resources to defend themselves, let me guess, you think the nuclear silos they have are being used for power plants? Get a clue you flaming goober, arabs hate us because we are all that they want to be but never will, rush limbaugh is the bomb as well as hannity, beck, oreilly, willard, etc.

I dont think you have ever read any of his post if your calling him a typical Liberal....LOL

[Kratos]

Wow thegodfather you are such a bookworm, congrats! I have two bachelors degrees so thanks for the insult, but I do not take people like you serious anyways. .

So, after you got your first bachelors degree, you decided: "what the heck, forget grad school, or a PhD program, I'm going for another bachelors degree."

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

monkeyman...

[Immortal Soldier]

Namely the shape of the wings, fins, and indentation in the aircraft body for a second engine. You have to agree they are very similar aircraft.

The development cost of the raptor is 2/3 of the price. Lets wait to see long term data on f-35 performance, and see if they are delivered on budget to see if they are really cheaper.

Don't go off looks my friend, radar signature is where it is at. The F-35 blows up like a freaking balloon on modern radar, it is not "ste@lthy" and will never be "ste@lthly". The F-22 is made for ste@lth (internal bay was one of the signatures to improve *******) however, its cross-radar signature near the tail fins can cause it to implode on radar. So any trained radar crew (Russian/Chinese/even Iranian) would be able to pick up the F-22 if they had the right equipment and training. Remember there is no such as thing as a "perfect" aircraft since there were always be a counter-attack for it.

Hence why I support the F-35, it is cheaper, the performance is similar but the F-22 still beats it out in certain categories. But again this isn't a hollywood movie, we aren't trying to make the "best cool looking" planes and best gadgets to win wars. We need effective, yet reasonably priced weapons to do the job.

At the end of the day, every empire that has fallen did not fall because it didn't have the "latest in gadgets/weapons/whatever" it fell because of internal turmoil, better opponent strategists, and costly mistakes.

Don't confuse how much you spend on new weaponry as to how well your military will do. Paper tigers are not threatening.

Well, if Obama came to power after Hitler, he would not have prosecuted the Nazi's or the SS. Because in Obama's own words, the country needs to look forward not back, never mind all those pesky little war crimes that occurred for 8 years under the Bush regime. Who really gives a shit about torturing detainees, holding people for 5-7 years without a trial, and the 93 detainee deaths at Guantanamo which were ruled not from natural causes? Well, Obama certainly doesn't.

“it is our intention to assure those who carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice that they will not be subject to prosecution,” President Obama said in a statement released today.

So not only should we not prosecute war criminals, because after all they were just "following orders," as many of the war criminals in Nuremberg claimed, we should also ASSURE them they are off the hook for violating peoples human rights under the Constitution and International Law. Change? Reallyyyyyyyy............


Are you a US citizen?

There are people more powerful than the president running this country, if you really think that the entire United States in the 21st century would be put in the hands of one man or a group of people (senate/house of reps) ELECTED BY THE PEOPLE, than you are naive.

What you see is not what you get.