*Israel*

[Twist]

What exactly is our relationship, how is it our ties are so deep, and what is the 'real deal'?

[Times Roman]

There was an "understanding" when we placed the jews after the war that we would take care of them. There's an official political name for the agreement/document, but couldn't get to sleep last night so my brain is mushy. The thinking goes that since we placed them there, we are responsible for them. So we've been giving them billions of dollars a year for 60+ years.

Maybe someone else can explain it better

[Nooomoto]

Because of their history, the Israeli's are very adept at all aspects of war fighting. They are also very adept at peacetime military operations in the interests of their own security. Also due to their history, they enjoy a political climate favorable to many of the things they do that most of the world would find distasteful. Isreali's view is...well you aren't us, so we don't care if you think it's distasteful.

Throughout the development of the American Special Operations community and military units, from their inception up until now there has been a great deal of sharing going on between us and them at all levels of government. A lot of what we know we learned from them. A lot of what they know they learned from us. We also share boat loads of intelligence and intelligence gathering methods/techniques.

I feel that even while our administration seemingly turns it's back to Israel in the eye of the public, the lower levels of government and military are still in full cooperation. They always have been. Israel does a lot of crazy shit, most of which no one ever really finds out about because it usually ends up being a sidenote on a news broadcast lasting no more than 2 minutes, and then you never hear about it again. The only real difference between us and Israel is, Israel doesn't care if the world finds out what they do...we do care, so we are more hush hush about everything.

You have to remember where Israel came from, they were born from war. Most of their first administration was comprised of resistance fighters in WW2. They have bred a warrior culture.

If you really want an in-depth view of our relationship since Israel became Israel, you should read "Every Spy A Prince"...it's kind of a rough read but it's really great at covering everything. Very eye opening, informative and has a lot of cool stuff in it.

[bjpennnn]

i think its time for everyone to bump up their test so we can go back to having threads that only revolve around tits and ass.

[baseline_9]

i think its time for everyone to bump up their test so we can go back to having threads that only revolve around tits and ass.

So true...

[Matt]

I'd like to see Israel given back to the Palestinians..

[auslifta]

Jews fund the war campaigns of the world (rothschilds http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rothschild_family ). Israel needs a big brother(USA) to help them from being forced to leave. Alot of Americas power brokers are Jews, they run alot of large corporations in America. They have a huge influence on foreign policy within America.

For those that aren't interested

[auslifta]

[bjpennnn]

much better. but on topic, i have a lot of respect for jewish culture and Israel.

[JJ78]

Free palistine!!

[crazy_rocks]

Free palistine!!

whos stopping palestine from being free?

[stevey_6t9]

Free palistine!!

no, free the bikinis from the girls above.

[wmaousley]

There was an "understanding" when we placed the jews after the war that we would take care of them. There's an official political name for the agreement/document, but couldn't get to sleep last night so my brain is mushy. The thinking goes that since we placed them there, we are responsible for them. So we've been giving them billions of dollars a year for 60+ years.

Maybe someone else can explain it better

In 1947, the United Nations created the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) to find an immediate solution to the Palestine question, which the British had handed over to the UN. As recommended by UNSCOP, the UN General Assembly approved what is known as the Partition Plan in Resolution 181 on November 29, 1947. The plan determined a specific date for the end of the British Mandate, May 15, 1948. More importantly, the proposal called for the creation of two states, while Jerusalem and Bethlehem would be placed under United Nations control.

US had nothing to do with sending the Jews to Israel.

[Times Roman]

In 1947, the United Nations created the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine (UNSCOP) to find an immediate solution to the Palestine question, which the British had handed over to the UN. As recommended by UNSCOP, the UN General Assembly approved what is known as the Partition Plan in Resolution 181 on November 29, 1947. The plan determined a specific date for the end of the British Mandate, May 15, 1948. More importantly, the proposal called for the creation of two states, while Jerusalem and Bethlehem would be placed under United Nations control.

US had nothing to do with sending the Jews to Israel.

there we go! my thinkking was/is muddled due to lack of sleep, and this sounds about right.

However, to say the US had nothing to do with it? Maybe officially.

Think about this. In this world of disinformation and media spin, when was the last time a major world event occurred and the US was NOT involved in some capacity?

[Twist]

Why do we act as if we owe them anything? Are we helping israel or palestine (I assume Israel of course), and why are we doing that/what do we have to gain? What would happen if we stopped helping? I don't really know much about this topic and everyone I ask seems to have strong bias in some way.

[crazy_rocks]

there we go! my thinkking was/is muddled due to lack of sleep, and this sounds about right.

However, to say the US had nothing to do with it? Maybe officially.

Think about this. In this world of disinformation and media spin, when was the last time a major world event occurred and the US was NOT involved in some capacity?

i think the reason why people get confused is because the u.s. was the first nation to recognize the nation.

[jasc]

Why do we act as if we owe them anything? Are we helping israel or palestine (I assume Israel of course), and why are we doing that/what do we have to gain? What would happen if we stopped helping? I don't really know much about this topic and everyone I ask seems to have strong bias in some way.

Military assistance... shared intel... Its part of being the World Police.. and sh*t since we print unlimited $ and basically don't have a budget why not? We'll just keep raising the debt limit and trying to eliminate every bad guy on the planet, and the almighty US will seem superior, although we are really broke with a failing economy and terrible unemployment, but who cares about those little details.. AMERICA... FVCK YEAH!

[thegodfather]

Israel is the one the worlds Top 10 Human Rights Violators, however, due to political reasons, and an extremely effective public relations/propaganda campaign by Israeli forces, they do a good job of keeping themselves off of that Top 10 list, for similar reasons that we have lowered China's rank among top human rights violators.

We support Israel officially, because they are our only allie in the middle east, surrounded by enemy nations, that we have a vested interest in having intelligence on, and as well as a foothold by which to launch a campaign should that become necessary (in our eyes). We have given Israel a large amount of support both monetarily but militarily as well in the form of weapons. Addditionally, we have unofficially participated in nuclear arms non-proliferation with Israel, giving them around 300 US made nuclear weapons, with various delivery methods.

In a nutshell, the state of Israel's history is as follows, and I will try to deliver this with as LITTLE bias as possible.

1)After WWII, Britain decided that the Jewish people should have their own state, so they armed Jewish resistance fighters of WWII, and together with a force of British soldiers, invaded the areas now known as Israel- Jerusalem, Gaza, The West Bank, etc, and so on. The "PLAN" was to create two states, an Israeli state, and a Palestinian state. However, when the invasion began, the Palestinian peoples resisted heavily against occupation. You must understand, that the Palestinian people they attempted to displace, had been living on this land for ehhh about a thousand years or so. However, Jewish peoples claimed a right to the land, since their ancestors had lived there, a thousand years or so before the Palestinian peoples. Although, prior to the 1947-48 invasion, Muslims and Jews lived in this region together, with no squabbles. After the invasion successfully quelled most of the uprisings, the invaders established the "State of Israel" to which the United States recognized as "legitimate." In this fighting, roughly 2,000,000+ Palestinian peoples were DISPLACED, made homeless, forced from their homes.

Instead of the "Two State Solution" agreed upon, the Israeli state renigged upon said agreement, and declared all of the Palestinian peoples to be terrorists, and therefore in their minds, declared the deal null and void, and ever since, have isolated the Palestinian peoples into two areas, Gaza, and the West Bank. Israel controls all routes in and out of these areas, including sea routes and ports to the area. They use FOOD, WATER, and MEDICINE, as WEAPONS against approximately 2,000,000 innocent peoples, because a few thousand among them routinely fire homemade rockets into Israeli held territory, and occasionally kill a few Israeli soldiers.

The best correlation one could draw from this, is the identical situation to which is going on between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The people of Ireland regard the presence of the United Kingdom in Northern Ireland to be an OCCUPATION, and the PIRA(Provision Irish Republican Army) frequently launched attacks against British soldiers, infrastructue, and etc. The PIRA's regard themselves as freedom fighters trying to throw out an occupying nation, but the United Kingdom's government regards them as "terrorists." The various Palestinian factions such as Hezbollah and the PLO regard themselves as freedom fighters, trying to oust a foriegn invader from their lands, and the Israeli government regards them as "terrorists." This is despite the fact that in both cases, the people most often targeted by these organizations are soldiers, and not civilians. However, because these people fight using guerilla tactics, and do not wear uniforms, nor do they have an actual state, they get no protections under the Geneva Convention. Additionally, when the Palestinian people tired to establish a government within their areas, neither Israel or the rest of the world recognized them as legitimate. In contrast, none of the surrounding Arabic and Persian countries regard Israel as a legitimate state.

To give you guys a perfect analogy to the situation. This would be akin to those of us living all around the United States, living in our homes, many of us having no roots to our ancestors who lived in these areas originally correct? Well, a foreign nation decided to support Native Americans, gave them arms, and helped them to invade the United States, they did by rights, live on this land before us, for thousands of years, and they came here with a military, and ousted us from our homes, and then they set up two areas in the united states, South Carolina, and Kentucky, and said that every single person in the United States has to live in those two states, and then the Native American army surrounded those two states by tanks, soldiers, constantina wire, and concrete barriers. Additionally, they put us in there, and then controlled the amount of FOOD, WATER, and MEDICAL SUPPLIES that got in or out of there, and for 40 years, didnt let us move freely in or out of those areas, and denegrated us essentially, to second class citizen status.

How would that make you guys feel?

[Sgt. Hartman]

^^ Excellent summary of a subject that people have written thousands if not millions of pages about.

This issue is so complicated that it cannot be accurately represented or portrayed on a steroid forum. LOL.

[Sgt. Hartman]

......

[Twist]

^Thank you for the response Godfather. Are any of these points disputable? As in can I rely on this as fact or is there many versions of this and this is one interpretation?

[crazy_rocks]

Israel is the one the worlds Top 10 Human Rights Violators, however, due to political reasons, and an extremely effective public relations/propaganda campaign by Israeli forces, they do a good job of keeping themselves off of that Top 10 list, for similar reasons that we have lowered China's rank among top human rights violators.

We support Israel officially, because they are our only allie in the middle east, surrounded by enemy nations, that we have a vested interest in having intelligence on, and as well as a foothold by which to launch a campaign should that become necessary (in our eyes). We have given Israel a large amount of support both monetarily but militarily as well in the form of weapons. Addditionally, we have unofficially participated in nuclear arms non-proliferation with Israel, giving them around 300 US made nuclear weapons, with various delivery methods.

In a nutshell, the state of Israel's history is as follows, and I will try to deliver this with as LITTLE bias as possible.

1)After WWII, Britain decided that the Jewish people should have their own state, so they armed Jewish resistance fighters of WWII, and together with a force of British soldiers, invaded the areas now known as Israel- Jerusalem, Gaza, The West Bank, etc, and so on. The "PLAN" was to create two states, an Israeli state, and a Palestinian state. However, when the invasion began, the Palestinian peoples resisted heavily against occupation. You must understand, that the Palestinian people they attempted to displace, had been living on this land for ehhh about a thousand years or so. However, Jewish peoples claimed a right to the land, since their ancestors had lived there, a thousand years or so before the Palestinian peoples. Although, prior to the 1947-48 invasion, Muslims and Jews lived in this region together, with no squabbles. After the invasion successfully quelled most of the uprisings, the invaders established the "State of Israel" to which the United States recognized as "legitimate." In this fighting, roughly 2,000,000+ Palestinian peoples were DISPLACED, made homeless, forced from their homes.

Instead of the "Two State Solution" agreed upon, the Israeli state renigged upon said agreement, and declared all of the Palestinian peoples to be terrorists, and therefore in their minds, declared the deal null and void, and ever since, have isolated the Palestinian peoples into two areas, Gaza, and the West Bank. Israel controls all routes in and out of these areas, including sea routes and ports to the area. They use FOOD, WATER, and MEDICINE, as WEAPONS against approximately 2,000,000 innocent peoples, because a few thousand among them routinely fire homemade rockets into Israeli held territory, and occasionally kill a few Israeli soldiers.

The best correlation one could draw from this, is the identical situation to which is going on between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The people of Ireland regard the presence of the United Kingdom in Northern Ireland to be an OCCUPATION, and the PIRA(Provision Irish Republican Army) frequently launched attacks against British soldiers, infrastructue, and etc. The PIRA's regard themselves as freedom fighters trying to throw out an occupying nation, but the United Kingdom's government regards them as "terrorists." The various Palestinian factions such as Hezbollah and the PLO regard themselves as freedom fighters, trying to oust a foriegn invader from their lands, and the Israeli government regards them as "terrorists." This is despite the fact that in both cases, the people most often targeted by these organizations are soldiers, and not civilians. However, because these people fight using guerilla tactics, and do not wear uniforms, nor do they have an actual state, they get no protections under the Geneva Convention. Additionally, when the Palestinian people tired to establish a government within their areas, neither Israel or the rest of the world recognized them as legitimate. In contrast, none of the surrounding Arabic and Persian countries regard Israel as a legitimate state.

not many palestinians were kicked out. it happened in a few places but overall it is NOT why they left. how many times does this have to be disproven?

they left because the neighboring arab countries warned and encouraged them to leave because there was suppose to be an attack against newly formed israel. once israel was to wiped out they could return. the arab leadership at the time were not in denial that this was the case. also they refused to share the land under a jewish state which is another reason. interesting how when israel was reformed that jews all over the middle east were being attacked so they fled to israel but the neighboring arab nations didnt take in the palestinian. interesting how they always try and accuse others of what they are actually doing themselves. this is a recurring theme.


the jews were moving back to this area for a long time. this has been taking place well before wwII. land was up for sale and the jews were buying.
everyone likes to leave this part out.

To give you guys a perfect analogy to the situation. This would be akin to those of us living all around the United States, living in our homes, many of us having no roots to our ancestors who lived in these areas originally correct? Well, a foreign nation decided to support Native Americans, gave them arms, and helped them to invade the United States, they did by rights, live on this land before us, for thousands of years, and they came here with a military, and ousted us from our homes, and then they set up two areas in the united states, South Carolina, and Kentucky, and said that every single person in the United States has to live in those two states, and then the Native American army surrounded those two states by tanks, soldiers, constantina wire, and concrete barriers. Additionally, they put us in there, and then controlled the amount of FOOD, WATER, and MEDICAL SUPPLIES that got in or out of there, and for 40 years, didnt let us move freely in or out of those areas, and denegrated us essentially, to second class citizen status.

How would that make you guys feel?

what empire was built without taking something from someone? therefore the point is invalid.

im really curious about the u.s. giving israel 300 nukes though. where did you hear that?

[wmaousley]

there we go! my thinkking was/is muddled due to lack of sleep, and this sounds about right.

However, to say the US had nothing to do with it? Maybe officially.

Think about this. In this world of disinformation and media spin, when was the last time a major world event occurred and the US was NOT involved in some capacity?

If we took the same stance the British did in 1947 and washed our hands with the Israelis we would be better off.

[wmaousley]

Israel is the one the worlds Top 10 Human Rights Violators, however, due to political reasons, and an extremely effective public relations/propaganda campaign by Israeli forces, they do a good job of keeping themselves off of that Top 10 list, for similar reasons that we have lowered China's rank among top human rights violators.

We support Israel officially, because they are our only allie in the middle east, surrounded by enemy nations, that we have a vested interest in having intelligence on, and as well as a foothold by which to launch a campaign should that become necessary (in our eyes). We have given Israel a large amount of support both monetarily but militarily as well in the form of weapons. Addditionally, we have unofficially participated in nuclear arms non-proliferation with Israel, giving them around 300 US made nuclear weapons, with various delivery methods.

In a nutshell, the state of Israel's history is as follows, and I will try to deliver this with as LITTLE bias as possible.

1)After WWII, Britain decided that the Jewish people should have their own state, so they armed Jewish resistance fighters of WWII, and together with a force of British soldiers, invaded the areas now known as Israel- Jerusalem, Gaza, The West Bank, etc, and so on. The "PLAN" was to create two states, an Israeli state, and a Palestinian state. However, when the invasion began, the Palestinian peoples resisted heavily against occupation. You must understand, that the Palestinian people they attempted to displace, had been living on this land for ehhh about a thousand years or so. However, Jewish peoples claimed a right to the land, since their ancestors had lived there, a thousand years or so before the Palestinian peoples. Although, prior to the 1947-48 invasion, Muslims and Jews lived in this region together, with no squabbles. After the invasion successfully quelled most of the uprisings, the invaders established the "State of Israel" to which the United States recognized as "legitimate." In this fighting, roughly 2,000,000+ Palestinian peoples were DISPLACED, made homeless, forced from their homes.

Instead of the "Two State Solution" agreed upon, the Israeli state renigged upon said agreement, and declared all of the Palestinian peoples to be terrorists, and therefore in their minds, declared the deal null and void, and ever since, have isolated the Palestinian peoples into two areas, Gaza, and the West Bank. Israel controls all routes in and out of these areas, including sea routes and ports to the area. They use FOOD, WATER, and MEDICINE, as WEAPONS against approximately 2,000,000 innocent peoples, because a few thousand among them routinely fire homemade rockets into Israeli held territory, and occasionally kill a few Israeli soldiers.

The best correlation one could draw from this, is the identical situation to which is going on between Ireland and Northern Ireland. The people of Ireland regard the presence of the United Kingdom in Northern Ireland to be an OCCUPATION, and the PIRA(Provision Irish Republican Army) frequently launched attacks against British soldiers, infrastructue, and etc. The PIRA's regard themselves as freedom fighters trying to throw out an occupying nation, but the United Kingdom's government regards them as "terrorists." The various Palestinian factions such as Hezbollah and the PLO regard themselves as freedom fighters, trying to oust a foriegn invader from their lands, and the Israeli government regards them as "terrorists." This is despite the fact that in both cases, the people most often targeted by these organizations are soldiers, and not civilians. However, because these people fight using guerilla tactics, and do not wear uniforms, nor do they have an actual state, they get no protections under the Geneva Convention. Additionally, when the Palestinian people tired to establish a government within their areas, neither Israel or the rest of the world recognized them as legitimate. In contrast, none of the surrounding Arabic and Persian countries regard Israel as a legitimate state.

To give you guys a perfect analogy to the situation. This would be akin to those of us living all around the United States, living in our homes, many of us having no roots to our ancestors who lived in these areas originally correct? Well, a foreign nation decided to support Native Americans, gave them arms, and helped them to invade the United States, they did by rights, live on this land before us, for thousands of years, and they came here with a military, and ousted us from our homes, and then they set up two areas in the united states, South Carolina, and Kentucky, and said that every single person in the United States has to live in those two states, and then the Native American army surrounded those two states by tanks, soldiers, constantina wire, and concrete barriers. Additionally, they put us in there, and then controlled the amount of FOOD, WATER, and MEDICAL SUPPLIES that got in or out of there, and for 40 years, didnt let us move freely in or out of those areas, and denegrated us essentially, to second class citizen status.

How would that make you guys feel?

The United States has stronger relationships with its Middle Eastern allies Saudi Arabia, Qatar, UAE, Kuwait, Oman, Bahrain than they do with Israel.

[Times Roman]

If we took the same stance the British did in 1947 and washed our hands with the Israelis we would be better off.

agreed. with china nipping at our heals, there is a potential for another cold war. we need to consolidate power, develop our own country, and let others fend for themselves. It's part of being a soverign nation, the ability to stand on two feet, and do for yourself as a country. Otherwise, it would seem they are more a colony of some other country if they need/require all this support?

[auslifta]

I doubt another cold war is on the cards

[Matt]

I used to have a load of sympathy for the jews, you know the way they were treated during the war ect ect.......

However any sympathy i had was soon washed away when i realised how they were treating their fellow human beings (the Palestinians). Sort of now makes me wish the entire jewish race were wiped out during WW2...

Its funny how we change when we open our eyes and realise whats really happening. I remember being in a bar about 15 years ago and i stopped some muslims from attacking a jew, there was so much hate and i told them if they were going to fight him then they would have to fight me and of course i knew half the people in the club so it was never going to happen.... I look back now and wish i'd of just let them knock shlt out of him...

I truly hope Iran get the nuclear bomb and we can sit back and watch them blow each other up.....

[terraj]

I used to have a load of sympathy for the jews, you know the way they were treated during the war ect ect.......

However any sympathy i had was soon washed away when i realised how they were treating their fellow human beings (the Palestinians). Sort of now makes me wish the entire jewish race were wiped out during WW2...Its funny how we change when we open our eyes and realise whats really happening. I remember being in a bar about 15 years ago and i stopped some muslims from attacking a jew, there was so much hate and i told them if they were going to fight him then they would have to fight me and of course i knew half the people in the club so it was never going to happen.... I look back now and wish i'd of just let them knock shlt out of him...

I truly hope Iran get the nuclear bomb and we can sit back and watch them blow each other up.....

That's Harsh man. However, it's astonishing to me that Israel can treat another race like that...human nature is fvcking ugly

[BG]

i think its time for everyone to bump up their test so we can go back to having threads that only revolve around tits and ass.

What's wrong not intelligent enough to hold a normal conversation ?

[ramacher]

I agree, as a conservative Republican, this is where I am in total opposition of my party's undying support of Israel. Let them fend for themselves. I, for one don't believe that they should deserve a state, as that was Arab land prior to 1947, but since the British occupied that land since the overthrow of the Ottoman Empire and throughout WWII, they just thought it was a good place to put them. Needless to say, that their decision has had a huge impact on the world we live in today. Most of the jihad groups hate America because it has undying loyalty towards Israel, and if we brake that bond, I feel that there would not be so animosity towards us from the Arabs (of course with us leaving Afghanistan and Iraq in the future).

[Flagg]

Again, what terrorist ever took out the person he had a beef with?

Palestinians will be the displaced people soon. Think anyone's going to give them their own nation once that happens? Infact, spin that again...once the U.S. is completely broke and it has no choice but to put all funds into propping itself up, think China or anyone will subsidise Israel.

The whole region is a joke. Christians, Jews and Muslims alike believe Jerusalem belongs to them. If the place turned into a crater, you might finally have peace in the Middle East.

[auslifta]

thegodfather post is spot on as usual, this vid might help a bit too

[auslifta]

Again, what terrorist ever took out the person he had a beef with?

Palestinians will be the displaced people soon. Think anyone's going to give them their own nation once that happens? Infact, spin that again...once the U.S. is completely broke and it has no choice but to put all funds into propping itself up, think China or anyone will subsidise Israel. They wont need subsidising in the near future, alot of NY and world banks will shift there.
The whole region is a joke. Christians, Jews and Muslims alike believe Jerusalem belongs to them. If the place turned into a crater, you might finally have peace in the Middle East.

So true.

[bjpennnn]

What's wrong not intelligent enough to hold a normal conversation ?

Ya man dont know what i am doing in here...gotta be a rocket surgeon i mean brain scientist to compete with the geniuses in the ar lounge.

[Twist]

thegodfather post is spot on as usual, this vid might help a bit too

That was extremely biased just so everyone knows. That is a one sided version of the story with a lot of blatantly wrong statements.

[crazy_rocks]

That was extremely biased just so everyone knows. That is a one sided version of the story with a lot of blatantly wrong statements.

yes very misleading

[stevey_6t9]

[Shol'va]

Israelis need lovin too...

[wmaousley]

The Zyzz thread is that way ----------------]