Darwinism vs creationism

[DSM4Life]

I go over it time and time again on how people can believe. Then when people make statements like this " "If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down ( Rep. Todd Akin from Missouri )" I understand.



http://www.livescience.com/22515-aki...ncy-myths.html

[lovbyts]

There are stupid people saying or believing idiotic things one both sides of the spectrum.

[Flagg]

I love science, I believe Science to be the one true "faith" that should lead humanity into a Utopian future. Religion is an old, archaic belief system that teaches us nothing but to be fearful of the thing you're supposed to love.

Anywho, I will try and be impartial.

Religion:

Pros: For many people it can be a great comfort, in times of hardships some find simply praying can be therapuetic. If you think no one is listening, then praying means "someone" has heard you. For people in prison, Religion becomes a means of atonal, to become a better person. Religion also serves to remind a person, that no matter bad things are on this earth, if you're a "good person", then you will be going to a better place when you die, so death does not seem as bad.

Cons: Religion has the ability to blind people to the world around them. For things they dont understand, or dont want to understand, there's a convenient passage in the Bible or Koran that will "explain this". Religious people also like to impose their belief on others, whether that person is receptive or not. And of course, war. You only have to look at the rep of religion in times gone by, The Tuetonic Knights for one, the barbarian and muslim hoards that pillaged Rome in it's last days, and then there is today. The Middle East and Northern Ireland. Two areas where people dont want to get along because one group believes in one religious doctrine, and believe they need to impose their belief through violence. For much love that religion professes, it seems to come steeped in blood. The Bible itself is plagued with bigotry, violence, intolerance, racism and sexism. The Koran is much the same, sadly though many Muslims on the screwier end still take that, word for word.

SCIENCE:

Pros: Science literally means "knowledge", which is the latin translation. God said Eve was wrong to eat from the Tree of Knowledge, and right there, so early in the Bible, that should tell you that these men that wrote the Bible didn't want people to learn, to enhance their capacity to understand things. Evolution perhaps gave us the greatest ability out of all the animal kingdom, larger brains, so why does religion and the bible find this offensive?

Science encompasses an enormous field of expertise, Physics, Chemistry, Ontology Biology, Ecology, Geology, Astronomy, Mathematics, Psychiatry and many more. All have benefited and improved humanity in some form. Through ecology, the study of wildlife, things like Kevlar armour was created through simply studying how spiders and silk worm make webs. Through biology and chemistry we have made incredible leaps in Medical fields, people live longer today through these break throughs. Geologists can detect with a high degree of accuracy when earthquakes will occur. Astronomers showed that there was more outside of our planet. All the praying in the world will not stop a earthquake from happening, or a patient bleeding out and so forth. I think science has always been a weakness in parts of the Middle East which is why some areas are still living as if its 500 AD still.

Science teaches us what works, and what doesn't, and science never proclaims to be infaliable. There is always the possibility of change, of theories being fine tuned, and if it wasn't for things like that, we wouldn't have scientific breakthroughs.

Science also gives us lots of cool, shiney gadgets

CONS: Science created things like the Nuclear bomb. Arguably it's the ultimate war deterent, but we have seen the effects of what a nuclear weapon can do to a city and it is not pleasant. Nuclear power can be considered a breakthrough, but that isn't without it's failings. As good as Nuclear history is, accidents do occur, and background radiation still makes parts of Chernobyl, a complete dead zone. Medical break throughs in science are all well and good, but people are living longer. Which means we all have an ageing population, that after they retire, expect to be looked after, fed, homed, etc, leading to an every growing population that simply isn't self sustainable. Drilling for oil can cause horrendous damage, examples being the BP oil spill two years back, which BP are still paying for today.

And of course, the drive to make things like weapons, look for more oil, seems to take precedence over things like space exploration, which I personally believe long term, will be better for safe guarding humanities future.

The bottom line is, both can be used for good and bad, but I do feel that science will be the answer to our prayers, not a superstitious book. Why do religions rise and fall, rise and fall, recycled, where as science continues to progress. Even some of the bad points I highlighted, I should state, that Nuclear weapons are now the ULTIMATE DETERANT, and with todays technology (something else science is responsible for), it takes something extreme to trigger a nuclear melt down at a station. They can even withstand impacts from things like planes now.

Science will be the key to our survival in the end, not religion. Religion can only lead to our extinction.

[Flagg]

Why is evelution of those apes not still occuring? Why are there no creatures in existance that are primates in different stages of evolution? Did the process just stop?

LUNK, that is not how evolution works! It is a gradual thing. And humans ARE PRIMATES. Your question is so flawed mate, no offence, that's like saying "if domestic cats and dogs are decended from big cats and wolves, why are they still around?"

Evolution is a result of many processes like natural selection, mutation, genetic drift, and so on. Most of it is chance, but sometimes, an individual in a population will have inherited something that gives them an advantage over everyone else. That individual breeds with a like kind, and their offspring will have these advantages and so on.

By the way, if you could go back in time and pluck a cheetah from 500 years ago and plop it into the wild today, it wouldn't last 5 minutes. Modern cheetahs would be faster, and the prey would be faster, even though they would look the same. This is because things like antelope have evolved to be faster over time, so the only way for Cheetahs to compete, is to become faster themselves.

This is the problem with religious people, you ask these questions, which arent bad, they are quite valid, but you simply wont go and educate yourself and expect a simple answer and im sorry, I cannot explain every aspect of evolution to you in one post. Read Red Queen Theory, you can probably find it on Wikipedia.

[Flagg]

People also don't realise, but mankind is in direct competition with insects on this planet. Because of our growing population, we grow these massive fields of crops. What most dont realise, is that a full FORTY PERCENT of all crops will be lost due to pests. We create more and more insecticides, pesticides, herbicides, but because insects are "r selected species", that is, organisms that have the ability to reproduce quickly and in high numbers, there is a high chance that a mutant insect will be born that is immune to the pesticide, and then it's offspring will. So we have to make a new pesticide, the pest will evolve a new defence. This is an evolutionary arms race going on right now between mankind and insects. And the thing is, there wouldn't be large numbers of insects eating our crops if there were crops in the first place. Everything on this world can take advantage of something.

This is actually a great example of observing evolution in real time.

Evolution in things like K selected species, that is, organisms that have a small number of offspring (things like us, and other large mammals), is generally slower and less apparent.

Cancer cells are also another example of watching evolution working on a small scale, as morbid as that sounds.

[Times Roman]

here I come again! aargh!

someone else brought this up, and so I will touch on this very lightly.

1. There may be a supreme being, I like to think of her as a prime mover. The one that started the ball rolling. There may be a prime mover, but that doesn't necessitate that this entity created us. There could be a prime mover AND evolution could still be right!

2. There may NOT be a prime mover, yet there could still be a supreme being. This supreme being could be a part of this universe, and constrained by it. This would mean, in all likelyhood that this entity evolved into her current state.

if you find this line of discourse intgriguing, I'd recommend Mortimer J. Adler's book, "How to think about God"
http://www.amazon.com/How-Think-Abou.../dp/0020160224

[JohnnyVegas]

JV u only have to looks as far as Genesis to see a refutation of evolution.

I don't want to get into a discussion about what the Bible says, because the Bible provides no evidence and I cannot believe it based on faith (although I totally respect that you do).

But I will back up my claim that even the Pope said there is scientific proof to support evolution, but that it could not exclude a role by God (I previously said that many religions have begun to admit that evolution is a proven thing, but they don't have to agree that it is the origin of life).

So, my earlier point is that evolution is irrefutable...it is proven to exist...the question should really be about the origin of life.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19956961.../#.UJlKxu1waM4

Pope Benedict XVI said the debate raging in some countries — particularly the United States and his native Germany — between creationism and evolution was an “absurdity,” saying that evolution can coexist with faith.

The pontiff, speaking as he was concluding his holiday in northern Italy, also said that while there is much scientific proof to support evolution, the theory could not exclude a role by God.

“They are presented as alternatives that exclude each other,” the pope said. “This clash is an absurdity because on one hand there is much scientific proof in favor of evolution, which appears as a reality that we must see and which enriches our understanding of life and being as such.”

He said evolution did not answer all the questions: “Above all it does not answer the great philosophical question, ‘Where does everything come from?’”

Benedict also said the human race must listen to “the voice of the Earth” or risk destroying its very existence.

The pope is wrapping up a three-week private holiday in the majestic mountains of northern Italy, where residents are alarmed by the prospect of climate change that can alter their way of life.

“We all see that today man can destroy the foundation of his existence, his Earth,” he said in a closed door meeting with 400 priests on Tuesday. A full transcript of the two-hour event was issued on Wednesday.

“We cannot simply do what we want with this Earth of ours, with what has been entrusted to us,” said the pope, who has been spending his time reading and walking in the scenic landscape bordering Austria.

[JohnnyVegas]

I go over it time and time again on how people can believe. Then when people make statements like this " "If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down ( Rep. Todd Akin from Missouri )" I understand.



http://www.livescience.com/22515-aki...ncy-myths.html

There are definitely idiots on both sides of any issue.

[JohnnyVegas]

Thats my point about man evolving from primates...if it never stops then why is there not primates today in different stages of evolving into humans>?

Not sure if you caught my explanation about how we ARE NOT evolved from modern apes toward the beginning of the thread. They are on a different branch than us on the evolutionary tree. They are not going to evolve into humans.

And evolution is still happening. It is all around us. But, it is VERY slow.

[--->>405<<---]

JV i appreciate ur post im not much of a science buff but when i think of the term "evolution" i think we all came from one single cell organism. this i DO NOT believe. i havent researched it (and am not particularly interested in doing so) but im sure there have been certain adaptations to take place within particular species that people could label evolution but to me this is a different term/occurrence than the traditional sense of the word evolve as i understand it.

i would also like to note that just because the pope acknowledges something does not mean that it should be ascribed to all christians. i grew up catholic and used to believe a lot of what catholics believe simply because i was told this is what i believe by my parents. as an adult after having researched thru the scruptures myself disagree with a lot the catholic faith proclaims and have found holes in their theology to the extent i no longer consider myself catholic and do not follow blindly the findings of the pope or anyone associated with that denomination of christianity.

thru prayer and bible study i arrive at my own conclusions with the help of God. this i find to be important and one (of many) things that are discouraged by the catholic faith which IMO is a very big flaw!

[Lunk1]

Not sure if you caught my explanation about how we ARE NOT evolved from modern apes toward the beginning of the thread. They are on a different branch than us on the evolutionary tree. They are not going to evolve into humans.

And evolution is still happening. It is all around us. But, it is VERY slow.

Yes and my wording may have been to simplistic. If modern primates and human beings evolved from some OTHER creature, then is the process essentially finished. I mean, I realize we are still evolving to a degree.

[JohnnyVegas]

JV i appreciate ur post im not much of a science buff but when i think of the term "evolution" i think we all came from one single cell organism. this i DO NOT believe. i havent researched it (and am not particularly interested in doing so) but im sure there have been certain adaptations to take place within particular species that people could label evolution but to me this is a different term/occurrence than the traditional sense of the word evolve as i understand it.

i would also like to note that just because the pope acknowledges something does not mean that it should be ascribed to all christians. i grew up catholic and used to believe a lot of what catholics believe simply because i was told this is what i believe by my parents. as an adult after having researched thru the scruptures myself disagree with a lot the catholic faith proclaims and have found holes in their theology to the extent i no longer consider myself catholic and do not follow blindly the findings of the pope or anyone associated with that denomination of christianity.

thru prayer and bible study i arrive at my own conclusions with the help of God. this i find to be important and one (of many) things that are discouraged by the catholic faith which IMO is a very big flaw!

I totally agree that the word "evolution" can be broad and has become a hot button issue. The posts I did in the very beginning of the thread were to discuss that evolution does exist (in the "life changes to suit its environment" way) and that should be a given. Whether that is the origin of all life is where the exciting debate is.

I also totally understand that the Pope does not speak for all Christians. I use that as an example because they are one of the Old School churches that are very slow to change their thinking. The Catholics don't have a history of being science-friendly.

[JohnnyVegas]

Yes and my wording may have been to simplistic. If modern primates and human beings evolved from some OTHER creature, then is the process essentially finished. I mean, I realize we are still evolving to a degree.

We are still evolving.

I just went looking for a story I read a while back, but couldn't find it...but here is an article on the same subject: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/02/science/02tibet.html

It involves looking into whether the ability for Tibetans to function at high altitudes is the fastest case of human evolution. The evolution is proven, they are just arguing about dates and how quickly the adaptation happened.

Interestingly, the previous record holder for fast evolution is the spread of lactose tolerance among Europeans.

[Lunk1]

Great info and insight JV an God Bless your faith 405. I really appreciate how mature everyone has remained on this thread. I mean that with the complete sincerity.

[JohnnyVegas]

Great info and insight JV an God Bless your faith 405. I really appreciate how mature everyone has remained on this thread. I mean that with the complete sincerity.

My first comment on this thread was "this won't go well." But I was wrong!

This doesn't need to be a fight between science and religion. I don't need to say anything bad about religion in order to present things that I find fascinating about science. Furthermore, I have no compulsion to disprove religion...I have friends and family that are both Mormon and Evangelical. They are, without doubt, the best people I know. They put me to shame in many facets of life.

[Lunk1]

My first comment on this thread was "this won't go well." But I was wrong!

This doesn't need to be a fight between science and religion. I don't need to say anything bad about religion in order to present things that I find fascinating about science. Furthermore, I have no compulsion to disprove religion...I have friends and family that are both Mormon and Evangelical. They are, without doubt, the best people I know. They put me to shame in many facets of life.

This thread has opened my eyes to the thought of not having to choose one over the other but instead, understanding that both could work together to a degree! Just depends on where you choose to draw your lines!

[JohnnyVegas]

This thread has opened my eyes to the thought of not having to choose one over the other but instead, understanding that both could work together to a degree! Just depends on where you choose to draw your lines!

At the very least it is possible for religion to say, "these proven mechanisms were put in place by Whomever and it is Their plan for creation."

It will take a long time for science to "disprove" religion, it that is even possible.

I am not religious myself, but think arguing about it is futile. Better to enjoy people for who they are, not distance myself from them because of what they believe.

[Lunk1]

At the very least it is possible for religion to say, "these proven mechanisms were put in place by Whomever and it is Their plan for creation."

It will take a long time for science to "disprove" religion, it that is even possible.

I am not religious myself, but think arguing about it is futile. Better to enjoy people for who they are, not distance myself from them because of what they believe.

I said it in an earlier post. If I believe I am out nothing and stand to gain everything

If I don't believe there is a chance I could be out everything and gain nothing

[Juced_porkchop]

without looking it up I'm under the impression we didn't evolve for modern apes(obviously) we all evolved from a primate species somewhere along the line this primate species broke into different branches one evolving into modern humans and into modern apes and some evolving into species that have gone extinct

agreed.


GOD is mearly a label........ to an energy in all and connected to all, a root life force... not some guy on a could watching us with a set of rules to follow.... just my op


I believe in god and Evolution, to me its foolish not to.

[Hunter]

I go over it time and time again on how people can believe. Then when people make statements like this " "If it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down ( Rep. Todd Akin from Missouri )" I understand.



http://www.livescience.com/22515-aki...ncy-myths.html

When some dumbass used the term "Faggot" I came to your defense. My mother would could you cook you dinner and ask you all about your life, etc. I can name tons and tons of christians who wouldn't pay any mind to your sexual orientation. Instead of focusing on these good people you constantly bring up assholes. When you could say hey their are assholes on both side of the spectrum.

[JohnnyVegas]

When some dumbass used the term "Faggot" I came to your defense. My mother would could you cook you dinner and ask you all about your life, etc. I can name tons and tons of christians who wouldn't pay any mind to your sexual orientation. Instead of focusing on these good people you constantly bring up assholes. When you could say hey their are assholes on both side of the spectrum.

You being awesome doesn't make the idiots any less frustrating.

I think the difference is that when someone says something dreadfully wrong, and they are in a position of great power, they should be pointed out. Hopefully it will result in him losing the election. Today I heard that that raced changed considerably (not in his favor) after he made that statement. I am conservative and will be happy to see him go.

[Hunter]

You being awesome doesn't make the idiots any less frustrating.

I think the difference is that when someone says something dreadfully wrong, and they are in a position of great power, they should be pointed out. Hopefully it will result in him losing the election. Today I heard that that raced changed considerably (not in his favor) after he made that statement. I am conservative and will be happy to see him go.

We have had a very heated senate race here in Nd between Berg and Heitkamp.

[Bryan2]

Considering there are no real contrdictions in the bible TR id have to say thats a pretty bold statement u made. While some things appear to contradict each other to the enlightened believer and bible scholars everything in he bible complements itself!

Id be real interested to see u come up with 3..

The bible has withstood criticism from the entire world and still holds strong. Why do u think that is? Its because God wrote it

I was raised christian and still believe in a God. Unfortunately it is no longer the God of the bible. Once I really started reading and studying the bible I saw just how many contradictions it has.

Here is a short list

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

I can find a much more if you like that revolve around Moral Precepts and what the bible teaches in one place yet says the exact opposite in another. Like killing, lying, robbery and so forth. If anyone is interested let me know and I will reference more


The thing is why would God allow such things to even have the chance to misinterpreted in the bible. Just from the small list I wrote if they are somehow taken out of context..... Why would God allow the bible to be written with that chance. I would assume he would want to bring as many followers to him as possible. So why not write the bible in such a way that prevents such things.

[Lunk1]

I was raised christian and still believe in a God. Unfortunately it is no longer the God of the bible. Once I really started reading and studying the bible I saw just how many contradictions it has.

Here is a short list

Theological doctrines:

1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6
2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48
3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2
4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16
5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28
6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8
7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12
8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19
9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14
10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12
11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13
12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17
13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28
14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33
15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8
16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5
17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12
18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31
19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13
20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9
21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21
22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28
23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

I can find a much more if you like that revolve around Moral Precepts and what the bible teaches in one place yet says the exact opposite in another. Like killing, lying, robbery and so forth. If anyone is interested let me know and I will reference more


The thing is why would God allow such things to even have the chance to misinterpreted in the bible. Just from the small list I wrote if they are somehow taken out of context..... Why would God allow the bible to be written with that chance. I would assume he would want to bring as many followers to him as possible. So why not write the bible in such a way that prevents such things.

This post has nothing really to do with the subject of the thread. The discussion isn't over whether god exists or not. Let's please avoid this debate!

[--->>405<<---]

Byran good post man im not going to go thru them because ive been thru a bunch at my church. all those references have been taken out of context. if put into proper context by a knowledgeable pastor they can ALL be remedied to show no contradiction.

[Bryan2]

Yeah that was not my intention. I would say just disregard the post.

[--->>405<<---]

Yeah that was not my intention. I would say just disregard the post.

After reading ur last paragraph again i think insee what ur trying to say. I dont know why God wrote the bible in such a way. The fact remains He did indeed write it in a mysterious way that cannot easily be understood by all. The Spirit can and does guide us when studying the bible and some stuff can be interpreted literally but a lot of stuff cannot.

I suppose the only answer (which does not give much explanation) would be because he chose to and it pleased him to write it in such a way.

God does not owe u or i or anyone for that matter anything! As a believer i am the one who owes him. And as unbelievers an eternal debt is owed that can only be paid one of 2 ways. By the unbeliever or by cHrist thru faith in him and substitutionary atonement. The choice is ours which one its gonna be. Believe it or not..

[warmouth]

I would love to get into this thread. This is my area of expertise. I have studied and debated this subject on every format possible and it is a subject I a obsessed with. I can dabble a bit, but since marriage and my move, I dont have my resources at hand. I can get them from storage if needed. I am for a firm supporter of creationism, but am not the type to jamb something down the throats of anyone. I will state my case and rebut if asked, but this video is perfect for my belief to be stated, and I think it will answer any questions, no matter what you believe. I amnot saying it will change you, but will make you think, which is a good thing. This video has 6 parts, and I urge you to listen to them all. Greg Bahnsen has long passed on, but he is still my "go to" in evidence for creation and other matters. He was brilliant, even if he is not agreed with. He is truely baffling and many people are still puzzled by his knowleged, that for me, cant be rivaled(by other christian/creationists).

[cherrydrpepper]

I am going to step in and just say this.

I have had this fruitless discussion a hundred times. You CANNOT develop a rational argument that will persuade those that believe in god. Belief in god is not a Rational decision, but an emotional one! And the same is true for those that embrace science. Emotion has no place in a scientific discussion.

I can sit here all day and poke holes in the bible and show a variety of major contradictions, but it does no good! Being rational/logical will not change the opinion of someone that will not embrace the scientific method.

IMHO, this discussion is as fruitless as Republicans and Democrats trying to find compromise.

But this thread WILL attract alot of attention!

Pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I personally believe in evolution as orchestrated by God. I don't know why thats so hard to accept that it was all part of his plan. I was looking up about how God created man and woman on the 6th day because I wasn't sure which day it was, and I came across someone saying exactly what I would say about why the bible doesn't say God set into motion man's creation through evolution from life. The guy says "The Bible is full of discrepancies due to human error". THATS IT. Its not anymore complicated than that. To me this is scrutinizing the trees and not seeing the forest to say evolution couldn't have happened because God made man/woman on the 6th day.

[Times Roman]

Pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I personally believe in evolution as orchestrated by God. I don't know why thats so hard to accept that it was all part of his plan. I was looking up about how God created man and woman on the 6th day because I wasn't sure which day it was, and I came across someone saying exactly what I would say about why the bible doesn't say God set into motion man's creation through evolution from life. The guy says "The Bible is full of discrepancies due to human error". THATS IT. Its not anymore complicated than that. To me this is scrutinizing the trees and not seeing the forest to say evolution couldn't have happened because God made man/woman on the 6th day.

Can't have it both ways mate! The bible was either written with Divine Inspriration and is exactly how god intended, or it is written by man and is NOT the direct voice of god, in which case, should NOT be taken literally and would quite naturally be full of flaws, discrepencies and other distortions.

The issue as I see it, is the original bible was a compilation of a variety of scripture and was put together for POLITICAL reasons by the Romans. Many scripture were NOT included, including the infamous Gospel according to Judas!!

[--->>405<<---]

Pretty much hit the nail on the head.

I personally believe in evolution as orchestrated by God. I don't know why thats so hard to accept that it was all part of his plan. I was looking up about how God created man and woman on the 6th day because I wasn't sure which day it was, and I came across someone saying exactly what I would say about why the bible doesn't say God set into motion man's creation through evolution from life. The guy says "The Bible is full of discrepancies due to human error". THATS IT. Its not anymore complicated than that. To me this is scrutinizing the trees and not seeing the forest to say evolution couldn't have happened because God made man/woman on the 6th day.

cherry how did u arrive to this belief?? thru study?? or is it just "what u think"??? one thing i noticed about myself is i arrived at beliefs based on my own opinion on things not because i studied things out for myself to see where the evidence led me but simply because "thats what i think".. i hope u dont let urself fall into the same trap. it can be a good deceptive tactic of the enemy!

the book of genesis clearly lays out the creation of man and all the animals, plants, planets, earth in a 6 day literal time span.. there is NO HUMAN ERROR in the bible. period! anyone that thinks so is deceived.

Can't have it both ways mate! The bible was either written with Divine Inspriration and is exactly how god intended, or it is written by man and is NOT the direct voice of god, in which case, should NOT be taken literally and would quite naturally be full of flaws, discrepencies and other distortions.

The issue as I see it, is the original bible was a compilation of a variety of scripture and was put together for POLITICAL reasons by the Romans. Many scripture were NOT included, including the infamous Gospel according to Judas!!

well TR i totally agree with the first paragraph! i do however find it unfortunate u felt the need to include the second! for ur sake i hope something compels u to continue seeking truth my friend..

for the record i believe in "verbal plenary inspiration".
http://www.brainout.net/VPI.htm

[Times Roman]

cherry how did u arrive to this belief?? thru study?? or is it just "what u think"??? one thing i noticed about myself is i arrived at beliefs based on my own opinion on things not because i studied things out for myself to see where the evidence led me but simply because "thats what i think".. i hope u dont let urself fall into the same trap. it can be a good deceptive tactic of the enemy!

the book of genesis clearly lays out the creation of man and all the animals, plants, planets, earth in a 6 day literal time span.. there is NO HUMAN ERROR in the bible. period! anyone that thinks so is deceived.



well TR i totally agree with the first paragraph! i do however find it unfortunate u felt the need to include the second! for ur sake i hope something compels u to continue seeking truth my friend..

for the record i believe in "verbal plenary inspiration".
http://www.brainout.net/VPI.htm

unfortunate for whom? certainly NOT me! I seek the truth and enlightenment, not dogma and having a closed mind. Certainly not saying this is the case with you, but it certainly doesn't describe me either.

So let me be clear, since we should probably discuss some biblical history, something most bible study classes do not do, not in a rational manner anways.

The Roman Emporer around 300AD was named Constantine. It is well known AND documented he led a team of over 70 scholars and rewrote the bible into a consolidated version we are more or less familar with today. Before that, the bible really was NOT consolidated, and instead the scripture were spread out and contained in a variety of locations. During this process, much scripture was edited, or omitted (destroyed) entirely, such as the Gospel according to Judas.

If you really want to get to know your bible, then please do so by means of other than what is taught in church. It is a hugely fascinating document, rich with history, wisdom and entertaining stories.

Here is something I was able to dig up within seconds on the internet:


Where did the Bible come from? You might have heard the convenient answer "from God", but the practical truth is that a man named Constantine - supreme ruler of the Roman Empire around 307 A.D. - led a group of about 100 scholars, politicians and military leaders to destroy most books about Jesus and keep a small number of 74 books that supported the government and still gave the Christians a solid Bible that could be used to give hope to the masses. In this way Constantine cemented his authority as a "friend of God" and yet was able to burn hundreds, possibly thousands, of books about religion and even Jesus Christ that were a threat to the government of that time. Constantine created a clever and powerful justification for power that has been called "divine right rule", a claim that has since been used by earth rulers for thousands of years, and which is still used by many leaders on earth today as justification for their actions and authority over the masses.

To be fair, churches today seldom or never mention the true origins of the Bible. It is much better sounding to say "the Bible is from God" and just leave it at that. No need to get the truth involved that a Roman Emperor compiled the 74 books and started the Catholic church (called the Byzantine church in its early beginnings).

Emperor Constantine, also called Constantine the Great, ruled the most powerful empire on the Earth from 307 to 336, and is most well known because during that time, Constantine distinguished himself by creating the organized Christian church and the Bible, with the help of about 100 theologians, scholars and politicians.

The average Christian these days goes to church and assumes the "Holy Bible" was dropped out of heaven by Angels, perhaps delivered by hand to the various headquarters of the official Christian denominations, usually located in the United States of America, or in Rome, Italy for Catholics.

After starting the church and putting together the Bible, Emperor Constantine allowed slavery to continue in his empire, he executed his own son and conducted many wars to defend and extend the Roman Empire. Anyone who is familiar with the teachings of Jesus to be able to teach a "new life" and "reborn spirit" will understand why Constantine's born-again life seem inconsistent with his new Christian faith. In fact, Emperor Constantine claimed for his entire life to be the incarnation of the God Apollo and the hand of the pagan Gods to rule the earth. His creation of the Bible and the Christian church did not deter Constantine from worshiping at pagan alters and building pagan monuments to pagan Gods. So it also seems inconsistent that the 74 books of the Bible that Constantine had compiled are still used today by the dogmatic and often war-hawkish modern Evangelical Christians, who never mention Constantine in their sermons.

Emperor Constantine had the same problem that leaders and rulers, Kings and Emperors had at that time, that the masses of people would question their "right to rule". Even in the modern times we see governments claiming to have the right to control everyone and make laws, but what gives them this right? In Constantine's day, the two claims to power came from:

1) Military families and military success gives us the natural right to rule - this means that the family of Constantine and other rulers were generals and great in battle to defend the empire (or country)
2) We are just better than you and should rule - this was a common attitude of the "elite" in the Roman Empire, and it did not always convince the masses. The logical question "why are you better than us?" would often be heard.

So Emperor Constantine got together with 100 people who were powerful either in politics (the Roman political system) or who were theologians and scholars, and together they assisted Constantine to create a religion that would help control the people and also could give the people some hope.

Today, churches around the world do not teach the origins of the Bible. They teach only that "God gave the Bible to us and you should follow it." The problem with teaching the origins of the Bible is that it undermines the power of the local church, once you hear that the 66 books in the modern Protestant bible came from this ruler Constantine, a few years after his government burned most books about Jesus or any religious view that could challenge the government. The Catholics use the same Bible from Constantine, with the only difference being that the "anti-Catholic" movement of Protestants got rid of about eight of the chapters (called the "Apocrypha") in the 1800's, so out of 74 original Bible chapters the modern Catholic Bible still has all 74, while the modern Protestant (i.e. Baptist, charismatic, pentecostal, militant neocon, etc.) now still has 66, all from Emperor Constantine's project 1700 years ago.

The great thing for Emperor Constantine was that when he created the church, he had a new reason for claiming the right to rule: "God wants me to be in charge". This claim has been used ever since by kings and rulers all the way up to the controversial modern U.S. president George W. Bush who ruled the USA with his regime from 2000 to 2008. Mr. Bush said several times "I believe that God has chosen me for this position." All of the famous Kings and Queens that are figureheads in human history have Constantine to thank for their ability to hold on to power using this "divine right rule" claim. Even modern rulers in Islamic countries, as well as Western leaders in the modern world, still use the "divine right rule" claim to power, even to the extent of killing opposition in the "name of God" as if the opposition is always wrong because "God said so".

It is a common theme among earth rulers to claim endorsement from higher deities (Gods) who are always unavailable for verification or comment. The key to Divine Right Rule is that it is very difficult to argue, because the "God" who has made you the King or Queen is never around to be questioned or asked about the validity of this claim.

We do not know Emperor Constantine's heart or true motivations, but it is wrong to assume that the Bible is reliable just because a local pastor claims it is. The fact is, many books were burned by Constantine's executive "bible-creating" council, they only wanted certain books that flowed together well and which supported the right of the government to exist and control the people. Verses in the Bible like "Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" (Matthew 22:21) really helped support the Roman government's control over people's money and finances, and how can you question that, if GOD HIMSELF says you have to pay Caeser some regular money, that is impossible to argue against since the God of the Bible has never been around to actually prove these claims that started with Emperor Constantine. Add to that the tendency of the governments of the world to kill or silence you if you oppose them or question things, and also the modern church's refusal to listen to questions, and really this "Divine Right Rule" that Emperor Constantine cemented into history has been great for rulers of governments, and terrible for the citizens of the earth's countries since the Bible was created over 1700 years ago.

Modern Christians blindly accept the Bible without knowing much about its origin. They accept Jesus without having any proof of his teachings other than the "Bible" that came from the Roman Emperor Constantine.

Occasionally you will get splinter cult groups who claim the Bible was delivered by extra-terrestrials from another planet far from earth (such as the Urantia cults), but don't be fooled, the Bible was Constantine's creation and any basic academic study of the subject can easily prove the facts of the matter.

Next time you open your Bible, remember it is the exact same Bible that Emperor Constantine put together with the politicians and hand-picked scholars in his executive council. What power does it have over your mind today if you read it? Perhaps the same power that it has had over the "rest of us" peasants for the last 1700 years.


This article is original and compiled by the author David Lieder from a chapter of one of his books.


Article Source: http://EzineArticles.com/5956564

[Times Roman]

cherry how did u arrive to this belief?? thru study?? or is it just "what u think"??? one thing i noticed about myself is i arrived at beliefs based on my own opinion on things not because i studied things out for myself to see where the evidence led me but simply because "thats what i think".. i hope u dont let urself fall into the same trap. it can be a good deceptive tactic of the enemy!

the book of genesis clearly lays out the creation of man and all the animals, plants, planets, earth in a 6 day literal time span.. there is NO HUMAN ERROR in the bible. period! anyone that thinks so is deceived.



well TR i totally agree with the first paragraph! i do however find it unfortunate u felt the need to include the second! for ur sake i hope something compels u to continue seeking truth my friend..

for the record i believe in "verbal plenary inspiration".
http://www.brainout.net/VPI.htm

yep. a defense originally created by Emporer Constantine justifying his revision of the bible..........

[--->>405<<---]

that is an interesting post TR. the tactics of the devil can be persuasive and convincing especially to those who dont believe. while i have heard a little about constantine i admit i have not done a lot of research. being a christian and having a living relationship with God i have all the proof i need. i do not expect u to understand because if u dont have the spirit of God dwelling inside u to give u discernment and confirmation there would be no way for u to be able to understand.

the bible clearly talks about the hearts of men being veiled. its was not until my conversion that the eyes of my heart were open.

i stand by my position and would die for my faith. i dont need a bunch of historical books to convince me of the existence of God or my relationship with Him. i have my life experiences to do that. it is sad to see others who are currently in the same shoes i was in.

id also like to note i have done some study into the canonization of the Bible. here is a link that briefly explains it.

http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html

also is a link to my church website that has some studies that specifically address how we can have faith in the bible.

http://www.cbcofbeaufort.org/pages/p...page_id=238868

[Times Roman]

that is an interesting post TR. the tactics of the devil can be persuasive and convincing especially to those who dont believe. while i have heard a little about constantine i admit i have not done a lot of research. being a christian and having a living relationship with God i have all the proof i need. i do not expect u to understand because if u dont have the spirit of God dwelling inside u to give u discernment and confirmation there would be no way for u to be able to understand.

the bible clearly talks about the hearts of men being veiled. its was not until my conversion that the eyes of my heart were open.

i stand by my position and would die for my faith. i dont need a bunch of historical books to convince me of the existence of God or my relationship with Him. i have my life experiences to do that. it is sad to see others who are currently in the same shoes i was in.

id also like to note i have done some study into the canonization of the Bible. here is a link that briefly explains it.

http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html

also is a link to my church website that has some studies that specifically address how we can have faith in the bible.

http://www.cbcofbeaufort.org/pages/p...page_id=238868

the muslims vilify anyone who does not believe as they do, and call them infidels.

So am I hearing you correctly? Anything that contradicts your beliefs is the work of the devil?

This sounds like anything but having an open mind.

and this is why I cannot debate at a rational level....

....if you present a rational argument, then it is the work of the devil?

(big sigh)

[Times Roman]

that is an interesting post TR. the tactics of the devil can be persuasive and convincing especially to those who dont believe. while i have heard a little about constantine i admit i have not done a lot of research. being a christian and having a living relationship with God i have all the proof i need. i do not expect u to understand because if u dont have the spirit of God dwelling inside u to give u discernment and confirmation there would be no way for u to be able to understand.

the bible clearly talks about the hearts of men being veiled. its was not until my conversion that the eyes of my heart were open.

i stand by my position and would die for my faith. i dont need a bunch of historical books to convince me of the existence of God or my relationship with Him. i have my life experiences to do that. it is sad to see others who are currently in the same shoes i was in.

id also like to note i have done some study into the canonization of the Bible. here is a link that briefly explains it.

http://www.gotquestions.org/canon-Bible.html

also is a link to my church website that has some studies that specifically address how we can have faith in the bible.

http://www.cbcofbeaufort.org/pages/p...page_id=238868

so try and keep an open mind for a second? So suppose I am right, and Constantine DID rewrite the bible for political purposes. Would this rattle your faith? And why is that?

[Blergs]

Science will be the key to our survival in the end, not religion. Religion can only lead to our extinction.

as i always say now:
I believe in GOD NOT Religion...

GOD is not an issue. Religion and greed connected to it is and most have alot of hate and greed in it.

[Times Roman]

as i always say now:
I believe in GOD NOT Religion...

GOD is not an issue. Religion and greed connected to it is and most have alot of hate and greed in it.

you know, I can't make up my mind.

For me, the big bang is equally as implausible as a supreme being creating the universe out of nothing.

the one satisfying thing about the quantum theory of the creation of the universe is that it needs no prerequisite in it's explanation of how we got here.

when god is cited as the creator, then there is a huge and equally important question that needs considering....

....who created god?

So the original quesition of first beginnings is not really answered by citing god as the source without considering the source of god. This doesn't mean that the quantum explanation is anymore plausible than the metaphysical explanation.

Maybe I should toss a coin?

[DSM4Life]

When some dumbass used the term "Faggot" I came to your defense. My mother would could you cook you dinner and ask you all about your life, etc. I can name tons and tons of christians who wouldn't pay any mind to your sexual orientation. Instead of focusing on these good people you constantly bring up assholes. When you could say hey their are assholes on both side of the spectrum.

JohnnyVegas hit the nail right on the head. If some "everyday Joe" said this it wouldn't have even made the papers.

[--->>405<<---]

the muslims vilify anyone who does not believe as they do, and call them infidels.

So am I hearing you correctly? Anything that contradicts your beliefs is the work of the devil?

This sounds like anything but having an open mind.

and this is why I cannot debate at a rational level....

....if you present a rational argument, then it is the work of the devil?

(big sigh)

there is a difference between having an open mind and taking into consideration something i believe to be inherently evil. as a christian who has done some bible studying i know the difference. being open-minded would be considering trying the fish at a restaurant i typically would not go to. it would NOT be taking into consideration text that clearly attempts to impugn the work of God.

im sure this appears to you to be being close-minded but to me it appears to be obedient to scripture. as a christian i know that i have a compass which will lead me properly down the path of life. Matthew 12:30 says: " He who is not with Me is against Me; and he who does not gather with Me scatters."

the article u presented i perceive as being the latter of the 2 possibles in this verse. therefore i know not to give it much heed. i was open-minded enuff to read it, but thats where it stops for me.

so try and keep an open mind for a second? So suppose I am right, and Constantine DID rewrite the bible for political purposes. Would this rattle your faith? And why is that?

let me make somewhat of a clarification. i do NOT take the position of trying to refute the text u presented above. i simply will not allow its content to have the desired effect on me that is intended by the author. while it may or may not be possible that there is some truth to the article the consideration i believe the article leaves out is the sovereignty of God over EVERYTHING including evil.

isaiah 45:7 " 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things."

consider the egyptian pharaoh. he was an evil man. God used him and manipulated his actions to bring about the outcome he desired: the exodus of the israelites which ultimately led them to the promised land. romans 9:17 "
17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."


Judas (who u referenced earlier). an evil man God used to deliver Christ to the romans for crucifixion. john 6:64 " Yet there are some of you who do not believe." For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him."

so to address ur question: suppose u are right (which i am not confirming nor disputing). i believe the Lord who is sovereign over everything in existence could very well have used constantine's evil actions in part to bring about the bible we read today.

so, NO it would not rattle my faith one bit, but to the contrary could possibly strengthen it.