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  1. #1
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Mmm body temp of 98.8 from the T3/abuterol + 30cm of snow here.

    This T3 and albuterol stack (along with my Testosterone /Trenbolone /Anavar cycle, and recently included IGF-1 LR3 as well) has my body temperature soaring from the increase in metabolic rate. Just checked it now and i'm up to 98.8 farenheit, sitting here with my shirt off and the furnace turned down.

    Seeing as though where I am we are getting dumped on in a major winter storm (supposed to be 30+ cm of snow hitting us), I think i'll just go outside right now topless and shovel some snow and look good while I do it. Can't wait to see the look on people's faces driving by.

  2. #2
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Oh at least I know my T3 is working - 250mcg per day in case you might be wondering AND NO THAT IS NOT A TYPO. I AM DOING two hundred and fifty mcg/day.

    I do not advise anyone else to do this. I am a weird freak when it comes to T3. Here's my story on it in case anyone is wondering...

    T3 right now for me is working INCREDIBLY. I've run T3 before about 3 years ago or so but for some reason it never worked back then, and I ran AR-R 's T3, I ran a UGL's T3, and I also ran pharmaceutical grade T3. Each time it didn't do a damn thing, and I ran it pretty high at 100mcg daily. I've got a thread to show you here that I made long time ago, http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...those-who-know! I posted there about the possibility that I am a T3 non-responder. There are some good responses there by other members there that are interesting too.

    This time around i'm running a UGL's T3 and all the signs show it's working: just 2 days after I started it, I dropped 3 lbs and 1.5% bodyfat, and my daily resting body temperature has skyrocketed ever since (average resting temp is floating around 98.5 or higher as I said, that's how you know its working). I have no clue as to why this T3 is working and why the T3 runs I attempted before didn't do anything. Maybe I didn't gauge my results properly in the past. Maybe my body didn't respond in the past but for some unknown reason it is responding very well now. Genetics? Age-related body changes (as I have not run T3 in about 2-3 years)? I don't know, but all I know is this: it's working now, and i'm very happy thus far. HOWEVER, my T3 dose STARTED AT 150mcg/day. I'm now up to 250mcg/day.

    NO MUSCLE LOSS. IN FACT I AM GAINING!!

  3. #3
    Brick's Avatar
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    Glad to know it is working for you. I have not checked out the other thread you posted but I will later. If nothing is different than before maybe your thyroid produces upwards of 100mcg a day so you weren't really going up and above what you were already producing?

  4. #4
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Fvck it's cold outside.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brick View Post
    Glad to know it is working for you. I have not checked out the other thread you posted but I will later. If nothing is different than before maybe your thyroid produces upwards of 100mcg a day so you weren't really going up and above what you were already producing?
    Who the heck knows, but I do know that the mechanism by which T3 operates in the body is actually REALLLYYYY complex. Most people have no clue. It would take me ages to describe it, but in a nutshell of a few points here are a few things to know:

    T3 requires adequate Cortisol levels to function properly. Cortisol works with T3 to initiate lipolysis, which is strange considering the common knowledge about cortisol being a fat-storing hormone, right? I know! Well, Cortisol is required to drive T3 into the cells so that it can do its work. Essentially, Cortisol works as a 'gatekeeper' that opens the gate for T3. Not enough cortisol in your system? Expect T3 not to work (or not as well as it should anyways). This is why it's not a good idea to take a cortisol blocker with T3. This is also why using AAS with T3 may also be a concern, because what else suppresses Cortisol? Anabolic steroids ! Especially the stronger ones. Some individuals have tried injecting Hydrocortisone into themselves while on a T3 cycle and reported EXTREEEEEEEME fat loss almost instantly when doing that, also accompanied with intense euphoric feelings. I DO NOT RECCOMEND ANYONE TO SCREW AROUND WITH CORTICOSTEROIDS THOUGH!!! It's an extremely dangerous practice, you don't want to mess with that just to get T3 working (this is for those people out there reading this post who might try and get ideas). A big sign that you might have inadequate cortisol levels while on T3: lethargy.

    I have never had lethargy while on T3, so the cortisol issue can't be my problem. Then there are also the other factors like RT3 (Reverse T3), blah blah blah blah. I'm still trying to figure out all of this myself, as I have not delved too much into my knowledge about all of the aspects of how T3 works in the body. But, I have done enough research and learning to know that the stupid myths about T3 destroying thyroid function are just not true. Your thyroid gland operates just like any other endocrine gland in the body. In fact, the thyroid is actually probably the stupidest endocrine gland in the body. It takes SO long for it to catch on to what's going on before it starts to reduce its output. One study was conducted in which several patients who were on T3 for THIRTY YEARS were promptly taken off of it, because they were MISDIAGNOSED(!!!) as being hypothyroid 30 years ago when they really weren't. Cessation of exogenous T3 resulted in every test subject's thyroid output return to normal levels within 3 months or something. And remember, this is people on it for half a lifetime. Several weeks of use in the bodybuilding world would have very little effect.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    This T3 and albuterol stack (along with my Testosterone /Trenbolone /Anavar cycle, and recently included IGF-1 LR3 as well) has my body temperature soaring from the increase in metabolic rate. Just checked it now and i'm up to 98.8 farenheit, sitting here with my shirt off and the furnace turned down.

    Seeing as though where I am we are getting dumped on in a major winter storm (supposed to be 30+ cm of snow hitting us), I think i'll just go outside right now topless and shovel some snow and look good while I do it. Can't wait to see the look on people's faces driving by.
    Screw the shoveling, you'll just have to do it again with that much snow. I would BBQ (shirtless of course) and watch their expressions. That could be funny

    Glad to hear the T3 is going well for you.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by twitz

    Screw the shoveling, you'll just have to do it again with that much snow. I would BBQ (shirtless of course) and watch their expressions. That could be funny

    Glad to hear the T3 is going well for you.
    Your BBQ shirtless?! Apron or no?

    -TroN-

  7. #7
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by twitz View Post
    Screw the shoveling, you'll just have to do it again with that much snow. I would BBQ (shirtless of course) and watch their expressions. That could be funny

    Glad to hear the T3 is going well for you.
    Yeah i've just been waiting for the snow to pile up, no point in doing anything until the storm is over lol. BBQ in the winter time shirtless? I'm down!

  8. #8
    Brick's Avatar
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    Thanks for the read. I always find your posts knowledgeable and they greatly increase my love of body.

    I eventually want to run after school programs for at risk youth that have to deal with fitness and health. While I will not be suggesting the use of steroids to youth I am sure I will come across questions about them. Your posts help me prepare for them!

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    Oh at least I know my T3 is working - 250mcg per day in case you might be wondering AND NO THAT IS NOT A TYPO. I AM DOING two hundred and fifty mcg/day.

    I do not advise anyone else to do this. I am a weird freak when it comes to T3. Here's my story on it in case anyone is wondering...


    T3 right now for me is working INCREDIBLY. I've run T3 before about 3 years ago or so but for some reason it never worked back then, and I ran AR-R 's T3, I ran a UGL's T3, and I also ran pharmaceutical grade T3. Each time it didn't do a damn thing, and I ran it pretty high at 100mcg daily. I've got a thread to show you here that I made long time ago, http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...those-who-know! I posted there about the possibility that I am a T3 non-responder. There are some good responses there by other members there that are interesting too.

    This time around i'm running a UGL's T3 and all the signs show it's working: just 2 days after I started it, I dropped 3 lbs and 1.5% bodyfat, and my daily resting body temperature has skyrocketed ever since (average resting temp is floating around 98.5 or higher as I said, that's how you know its working). I have no clue as to why this T3 is working and why the T3 runs I attempted before didn't do anything. Maybe I didn't gauge my results properly in the past. Maybe my body didn't respond in the past but for some unknown reason it is responding very well now. Genetics? Age-related body changes (as I have not run T3 in about 2-3 years)? I don't know, but all I know is this: it's working now, and i'm very happy thus far. HOWEVER, my T3 dose STARTED AT 150mcg/day. I'm now up to 250mcg/day.

    NO MUSCLE LOSS. IN FACT I AM GAINING!!
    I'm the same way. I don't know about t3 never used but when I used clean I had to go to around 160mcg on my 3rd day just to get mild sides and a slight raise in temp was up to 240mcg by the end. My vitals were stable. This is how my body reacts to most meds.

    When I was getting ready to deploy the army decided that it was important for me to get my wisdom teeth removed... The dentist was in a semi-truck trailor... Took 3 hours to remove them and they just numbed me, well it started wearing off when they started using the electric saw. I bit that f*ckers finger as hard as I could... Needless to say he injected me with more. That weekend I went through 3 bottles of Vicodin because I have to take 15mg/1500mg every 6-8 hours to alleviate the pain. I'm sure my liver was hating me. I'm sure that I went over the 4g acetaminophen 24hr limit. The worst part was that I had to take antibiotics too, but my mouth was so swollen and sore I couldn't eat with them

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tron3219 View Post
    Your BBQ shirtless?! Apron or no?

    -TroN-
    Only when I do my food prep in the early am, if it's at night no... I have neighbours

    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    Yeah i've just been waiting for the snow to pile up, no point in doing anything until the storm is over lol. BBQ in the winter time shirtless? I'm down!
    Let us know how this goes!

  11. #11
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    60 degrees here. Headed to buy steaks for tonight. Filets for the ladies and riveted fir the gents. Ahh the south.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Capebuffalo
    60 degrees here. Headed to buy steaks for tonight. Filets for the ladies and riveted fir the gents. Ahh the south.
    Ribeyes for the gents.

    That's not even auto correct.

  13. #13
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    You're only .2-.9 degrees over average body temp...
    Last edited by Bonaparte; 02-09-2013 at 01:46 PM.

  14. #14
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bonaparte View Post
    You're only .2-.9 degrees over average body temp...
    My baseline body temperature prior to starting T3 was in the mid 97 degree range. I am also taking arm pit measurements, which are generally lower on average than cavity (mouth, rectal, or ear) measurements.

  15. #15
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    So...the fact that being on t3 makes me feel like i've been run over by a truck is a potential indication of low cortisol levels?
    Ive been running 60mcgday for about two months. Decided to get more aggressive and jumped to 120mcg today. I have felt incredibly drained and downright AWFUL since.
    Last edited by BBJT200; 02-10-2013 at 08:58 PM.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by BBJT200 View Post
    So...the fact that being on t3 makes me feel like i've been run over by a truck is a potential indication of low cortisol levels?
    Ive been running 60mcgday for about two months. Decided to get more aggressive and jumped to 120mcg today. I have felt incredibly drained and downright AWFUL since.
    Absolutely, that's the cortisol being inadequate for the T3 to do its job properly. Google it, you'll see all the details about it yourself. That's what the commonly reported lethargy on T3 is from. I've never experienced it myself.

  17. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    Absolutely, that's the cortisol being inadequate for the T3 to do its job properly. Google it, you'll see all the details about it yourself. That's what the commonly reported lethargy on T3 is from. I've never experienced it myself.
    Me either.

  18. #18
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    Well shit, i've known I have had adrenal issues for a long time. I never made the correlation between times I used hydrocortizone suppositories for hemorrhoids, or hydrocortisone cream for rashes and dramatic weight loss until now.

    Something I'm going to be looking into for sure. ...

    It also makes sense why I felt AWFUL all day today at 120mcg, and within half an hour of using one of those suppositories (25mg hydrocortisone acetate), I felt like a million bucks again.
    Atonimi, you again have delivered some amazing information to me and the rest of the board. Thank you for your contributions, really!

  19. #19
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Not a problem man. Like I said, my knowledge of T3-Cortisol interaction isn't as great as other topics of the endocrine system but I plan on researching into it more and finding out more behind the connections between Cortisol and T3, and what one could be able to do in order to increase Cortisol effectively and safely without the risky use of corticosteroids. There has to be a way of doing it safely.

    This issue is also why it is important to understand that the use of stimulants such as Clenbuterol , Albuterol, ECA, etc. can be counterproductive to T3 use IF excessive use either in dose or duration causes adrenal burnout in an individual. If your adrenals are shot, T3 won't work for you at all due to decreased Cortisol production. The only solution is to come off everything and take a break to allow your adrenal function to recover.

  20. #20
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    atomini i am curious and have recently been contemplating utilizing T3 and possibly clen or ECA to try to get my bf% lower than it is currently (9%) and was curious as to how effective T3 would be on its own without clen? i realize this would just be an estimation but am curious to ur thoughts. also i have never run clen before and am not a big fan of stims but have run the ECA stack and wanted ur opinion on the possible effectiveness of T3 with ECA instead of clen?

    also what would be a std decent dose for a 190lb 9%bf guy?

    how well do u think these substances would work in conjunction with say 300mg test per week and 75mg anavar ED (for 5 weeks)??

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    Atomini's Avatar
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    Clenbuterol is not an essential addition to T3. It can be used on its own with no problems in fat loss, and I have done it before myself.

    Just make sure you run it on a cycle of AAS to avoid any possible muscle wasting. As far as standard doses go, I can't give any reccomendations because T3 seems to affect everyone differently, regardless of weight and bodyfat %. Many people seem to be very sensitive to T3, and will start to burn up at the lowest doses. This is why it is reccomended, if it is your first time using it, to slowly ramp up the dose in order to first of all gauge your body's effects, and second of all, to get used to the increase in body temperature. Once you know what T3 dose works for you, you can run it like that right off the bat (like I do). I'd suggest starting off at 75mcg/day, see how you feel for the first 2 days, and then go from there and adjust up or down depending on how you feel. T3 is not like AAS where we can just say "300mg/week" or "50mg/day". That is the real reason for slowly increasing dose, not because of the stupid lies and rumors about destroying your thyroid gland.

    300mg/week of Testosterone with 75mg daily of Anavar is perfect to stave off muscle catabolism with T3. That should assist in promoting enough nitrogen retention in the muscles to avoid muscle catabolism from T3. You should be able to run up to 100 - 125mcg per day with no issues of muscle loss (also depending on caloric intake as well, remember that too). That's another reason why a set-in-stone universal standard dose can't be given. A lot of this depends on your caloric intake. If it is too low, no amount of anabolic steroids will save your muscle from T3.

  22. #22
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    ^^ thx man

    i was considering running pretty close to maintenance cals and letting the T3 do the work. my logic being if i am eating right at or slightly below maintenance and the T3 increases my metabolic rate then i would lose fat.

    curious as to whether u have an opinion on type of diet for T3 usage? currently my maintenance diet looks like: 3500-4000cals on one day then 1500-1800cals the next day with a 21hr fast , then repeat.

    the reason i ask is i am curious as to whether the fasting would be a problem that u can see?

  23. #23
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Well i've been carb cycling as you know, and on my low days my cals can drop quite drastically and I have had no issues with muscle loss. In fact, the nature of carb cycling on T3 has perhaps helped me gain a bit of muscle on top of the fat loss.

    In any case the T3 doses, your caloric intake, and how much gear to use with it are all dynamic things that you have to play around with and get a feel for and adjust these 3 factors accordingly.

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    I don't think I've enjoyed a compound as much as I've enjoyed T3. (Maybe Primo )

    On cycle, even with an extreme calorie deficit, I saw no muscle. loss. Of course that was with cycling doses, not maintenance. I mostly use it to bulk now a days.

  25. #25
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    is there a certain amount of time i need to have been on the test and var before starting the t3?

  26. #26
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    Interesting. You have any studies of people running T3 without anything else?

  27. #27
    --->>405<<---'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by austinite View Post
    I don't think I've enjoyed a compound as much as I've enjoyed T3. (Maybe Primo )

    On cycle, even with an extreme calorie deficit, I saw no muscle. loss. Of course that was with cycling doses, not maintenance. I mostly use it to bulk now a days.
    im glad u popped in austin as im curious as to how many cals u are able to eat more during ur bulk while running T3? id also be interested to hear of ur experiences with it for cutting? im thinking T3 might just be what i need! i cant take more of a deficit than ive run and 9% is the best that i can get with said deficit.

    the maintenance i was referring to above was in regards to caloric intake not AAS dosage..

  28. #28
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    is there a certain amount of time i need to have been on the test and var before starting the t3?
    Good question. I'd reccomend being on anything (regardless of ester type, injectable, or oral) for at least a week before starting T3 just to ensure blood plasma levels are high and steady, and that the hormones are already underway at doing their job in increasing nitrogen retention in the muscles before including the T3. I have started T3 the same day as starting my cycle before, and I do believe I experienced strength loss in the first 3 days. Nothing huge, but it was noticeable enough that I could tell it was because the blood plasma levels of the AAS were not steady enough to provide a systemic increase in nitrogen retention. I was on short esters at the time, I believe (no orals).

    Quote Originally Posted by t-dogg View Post
    Interesting. You have any studies of people running T3 without anything else?
    Unfortunately not. I haven't found any studies that refer to T3 use for the purpose of perfomance/physique enhancement, and that's probably because anabolic steroids used far more commonly than T3, and are more likely to be studied in a clinical setting at performance/physique enhancing doses than T3 would be. Nearly all of the studies on T3 I have come across have been on patients who were prescribed T3 for their medical conditions, whether it be hypothyroidism or a different medical condition that required T3 supplementation.

    Would be interesting to perform a few clinical studies that involve the use of T3 at supraphysiological doses both with and without anabolic steroids included.

  29. #29
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    How is the igf going for you?

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    im curious atomini as to what ur starting bf% was , how long u have been on, and what ur bf% is now plus what ur deficit has looked like?

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    If your adrenals are fried, couldnt one just use 10mg hydrocortisone 4-5x a day to remedy the lack of cortisol?

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    1g hydrocortisone cream (otc) = 10mg. Also amounts to 1ml on a syringe.

    Took 200mcg t3 this morning. Along with 10mg hydrocortisone upon waking.
    Felt great until mid morning when the cortisone clearly wore off. Body temp dropped, etc. I redosed hydrocortisone, within half an hour I felt better.

    If I can manage a stable schedule of cortisone, I should be able to keep t3 effective regardless of having fried adrenals. Right?

  33. #33
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by t-dogg View Post
    How is the igf going for you?
    Oh my god, IGF-1 LR3 IS INCREDIBLE!!!! I only included it 1 week ago (been on it 1 week so far) and 3 days after starting it, the fat loss started to really accellerate. I dropped 1.7% bodyfat in one week, where the last 3 days of that week was IGF (last weigh-in and bodyfat check was last Thursday). Can't wait to see what this Thursday's weigh-in and bodyfat check will show.

    Quote Originally Posted by --->>405<<--- View Post
    im curious atomini as to what ur starting bf% was , how long u have been on, and what ur bf% is now plus what ur deficit has looked like?
    Starting bodyfat % was 17%. As of last Thursday I was down to 14.3%. Prior to this cut, I let it rise higher than I normally would let it. I normally cut off bulking at 15% bodyfat when mass gaining or bulking, but this time I let it go just a bit higher than I wanted. So that's why I decided to hit this cutter hard by running Albuterol/T3/Testosterone /Trenbolone /Anavar alongside a carb cycle. Note that the T3 was only included about 6 weeks into my cycle, and IGF was recently started to maximize fat loss during the last 2 weeks of the cycle, and I will continue the IGF into PCT to assist in keeping gains and minimizing fat gain during PCT.

    IGF will be 4 weeks on / 4 weeks off at 50mcg daily. I don't want to be developing Palumboism here.

    I have been taking weekly pictures and you can see some in-fvcking-credible progress over this cycle. I will be posting my week 1 and final week pictures here for you all to see. I am HOPING to drop to 10% at least, but i'm not sure if that will happen in these last 2 weeks. I've been tempted to extend my cycle length to another 2 weeks depending on whether or not i've reached that 10% or lower goal, but I don't want to end up being one of those guys that ends up being on cycle for way longer than anticipated. So whether or not I hit 10%, I may just cut it off anyways and call it a good run. Tempting to extend another 2 weeks but the potential to abuse AAS is very easy... I don't want to go down that slippery slope. Longer cycles also mean longer time off between cycles, and I am always a big fan of short cycles (8 weeks) and so far this cycle has been 10 weeks.

    Once again, quick breakdown of my progress so far: 17% bodyfat at the start, and as of Thursday last week I have progressed to 14.3%. Could've gone much faster at the beginning but for the first 6 weeks I had no T3 and no IGF-1 LR3. I also had some issues at the beginning with my carb cycle where I had to adjust and tweak it because I wasn't seeing fat loss as efficiently as I wanted (I ended up basically gaining mass for the first 3 or 4 weeks, which is still not too bad considering everything).

  34. #34
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    Interesting results man, nice. You feel T3 or igf1 is from the fat loss?
    Last edited by t-dogg; 02-11-2013 at 05:33 PM.

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    If you're thinking of using IGF though, just realize that it doesn't burn fat. It is simply a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY strong nutrient partitioning and nutrient shuttling hormone. On its own its not too shabby, but when combined with AAS and fat burners, its like turning on the booster switch for everything. And though I have not done this, I heard that if you combine it with AAS, insulin , HGH, and fat burners... you basically augment your body's biochemical subsystems to create an environment that ONLY favors fat loss and mass building. Apparently you can eat small countries every day and it all goes right to the muscles.

    IGF-1 LR3 will now be an essential addition to any cycle for me from now on, whether it be a mass-gainer or a cutter. 50mcg daily seems to be pretty effective, let alone the 100mcg - 150mcg or higher that a lot of people i've seen do. One friend of mine only did 30mcg daily and experienced great results, and when I saw that in him, I was sold immediately and impulse bought it. I wish I had seen my friend's results sooner so I could've included IGF early on in my cycle. Problem is I was always skeptical of it for the last few years, and I don't know why.

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    Thats what Ive basically understand about combining everything. T3 will be added to the next cycle, still alot to learn about igf and such. Dont know much about dioses, cycle leght, ect.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBJT200
    1g hydrocortisone cream (otc) = 10mg. Also amounts to 1ml on a syringe.

    Took 200mcg t3 this morning. Along with 10mg hydrocortisone upon waking.
    Felt great until mid morning when the cortisone clearly wore off. Body temp dropped, etc. I redosed hydrocortisone, within half an hour I felt better.

    If I can manage a stable schedule of cortisone, I should be able to keep t3 effective regardless of having fried adrenals. Right?
    I would be interested in this. My body temperature has risen very slightly but I am feeling very lethargic. Hydrocortisone, you recommended against this Atomini, but. As the post above says, could it be done?!

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    After all....they do treat severe adrenal fatigue with cortisone....given the patient is cortisol deficient anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krugerr View Post
    I would be interested in this. My body temperature has risen very slightly but I am feeling very lethargic. Hydrocortisone, you recommended against this Atomini, but. As the post above says, could it be done?!
    Yes, it can be done and many have done it succesfully. But just be very careful and make sure you know what you're doing. Also be sure to research other methods of increasing Cortisol output in the body before resorting to corticosteroid administration. Hey I have an idea! Try getting married. Guaranteed Coritisol boost lol. But jokes aside, I have heard that supplementation with Pregnenolone (a precursor to Cortisol) works, but I have neither tried this nor looked into it. The next time I run T3 again, I will look into it myself.

    I have noticed on the days that when I take Adderall while i'm on T3, my temperature GOES THROUGH THE ROOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I suspect that Adderall (Dextroamphetamine and Levoamphetamine) possibly increase Cortisol output. This is just a logical conclusion that i've gathered from my observation, so don't take my word on it. And no, I don't reccomend anyone to use amphetamines to increase the effectiveness of T3. I was just stating my observations.

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    I've tried pregnenolone...it seemed to increase my estrogen levels considerably.
    I'm on amphetamines for ADHD. 20mg XR 2x/day. I just took my internal temp...99.5 degrees. Normally, I'm in the mid 96's. Historically, my "metabolism has sucked ass." Now I'm seeing that it's probably just that I didn't have any cortisol for my body to actually use my natural T3.

    Anything to be concerned over about having a 99.5? I know anything over 101 I should be worried....but I'm thinking I should be fine if I can keep things stable like this.

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