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  1. #1
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Now I know I'm getting Fvckin old

    Well I got a tell you guys. No one else understands. I am just besides myself, ****ed to the max. I blew out an umbilical hernia yesterday. Yep, I did. my father was a doc, I was born with one. and in the 80' I had to have it repaired. I know what they look like . I know how they feel. I know all about them and this is IT. If I just push a little, a little and it comes out. It doesn't look good or fell good. I couldn't go train today, or the next or the next until it is repaired. Sorry guys but no one around here understands how fvckin hard I've been training and being careful at that, working with an antique body. Ya know if any of you had sen me 6 months ago, I tell you the truth you would not believe my gains. I'm not trying to boast but others at the gym keep coming up to me. I'm not good, I'm not big, I'm in fact a small fvck. And old guy, gas been ya know and I just want to train. I am on SSD and I don't have to work I just want to train. Now back to square one, when. How long do I fvckin have at 61. I'm working on a up hill battle. Sorry but you guys just can't fathom this sh*t. Am I upset, ....SH*T... WHAT?...Do I feel sorry for myself am I crying in my sh*t, well please for give me but YES.
    Oh now get this how do I have surgery with no pain meds., huh. I have no natural pain defense left after what I did for so many years. They can't even give me anything close to what it wold take. No one can conceive of how much, Just saying not bragging, I'm a fvck up. SO Now give me pain meds, are you kidding. How do I defend that sh*t. Hey I'm a SERIOUS adict and bi-polar type I. So I like you all but don't even try to tell me just get strong. I will try dammit. But I am scared as Sh*t. Only 1yr and 3 months clean.
    So sorry but i just had to vent. Poor mike, oh poor a*s hole mike. My prize posesion, my VOLVO, unscratched, was hit while still in the parking lot at the gym entrance, last week, 103,000 miles only and it drives ok and they w ant to total it. Should I reup my pr*zac today, I'm out in a day. Huh. My days work around the gym. The gym doesn't work around my life. Yes I am fvckin upset an I have good reason. I am sad, anxious, fearful, angry but I'll be dammed if I'm going to be a statistic and let this get me to drvg and drink. But the pain management thing, I want to just lift and not loose what I've worked so hard for. ...crazy mike

  2. #2
    Knockout_Power's Avatar
    Knockout_Power is offline "Even sexier than Siggy"
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    Geez man, that sucks... injuries are the worst... pretty much helpless until surgery and healed... hard to stay motivated especially when you will enevitably lose gains which are so hard earned.

    Feel for ya Mike, but cant pretend to be in your shoes

  3. #3
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    jimmyinkedup is offline Disappointment* Known SCAMMER - Do Not Trust *
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    Life can be tough Mike but hey at least now your in the game Bro.

  4. #4
    Hazard's Avatar
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    Dam man I wish you the best. My father is 51 - bipolar - and had a painkiller problem also. His back is so far fvcked right now that he can't live without them anymore so once again he's on them. I've seen him go from 50 to 75 in a years time.

    He was preparing for a masters show and ended up having his stomach cut open. 4 stomach surgeries, 2 shoulder, 1 knee, and 2 back surgeries. He's been to hell in back but I give the man credit..... He still tries.

    I hope you find the strength to keep pushing on. This is a lifestyle - keep doing jt because you love it.

    ~Haz~
    Failure is not and option..... ONLY beyond failure is - Haz

    Think beyond yourselves and remember this forum is for educated members to help advise SAFE usage of AAS, not just tell you what you want to hear
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  5. #5
    twitz's Avatar
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    You've already been through an incredible amount, just keep doing what you are doing, continue moving past everything that comes your way, and hang in there. We will all be here thinking of you and supporting you.

  6. #6
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    GirlyGymRat is offline Knowledgeable Elite ~ Respected Female Leader ~
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    CM. so sorry to hear of your injury. Glad u vented with your friends. Be keeping u in my prayers!

  7. #7
    MickeyKnox is offline Banned
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    Ouch! That just shriveled my "boys" up. I feel for you Mike. That really sucks man. I hope you recovery as fast as humanly possible!

  8. #8
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    you crazy..

    remember we grow when we rest..

    and due to injury we often times come back even stronger given correct diet and rest..

    rest being the secret..
    The answer to your every question

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  9. #9
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Wow, you guys are great. I won't quote you all, because you all showed such empathy and some sympathy. Ya know sometimes you want to be strong and not cry over the milk spilled but SH*T, come on. But thanks because all I get out here is see your to old, Oh we knew you would get hurt, do you think your still young.....huh Well I feel pretty young some times. I tell you and you need to tell me oh don't do it etc.. be cool with me. Today I just wanna get high. Thinking in a short while I'll need some meds, so why not. But I DON"T WANT TO SICK AGAIN. This isn't the place for this. I bought some ice cream instead and some tootsie roll pops, ha. Eatin ice cream before dinner. Well i now need to put some pct in place for however. Or might cruse through on Winni. Gota work this whole thing out. Well I will see the doc maybe by Friday. I believe it is doable through laparscopic surgery. That's what Ive been reading today. But trust me guys this thing is REAL, there is no doubt, my wife pushed it back in and to the hole. A friend saw it pop out. So just so you know I'm not cryin wolf.
    Thanks again I'm so glad to have a place to vent this, cause these people are blind and can't think outside their own box. So enough out of me.................Jezz I am just fvckin besides myself. Hey "one day at a time " My wife has the Oxy hidden good, so no quick rash decisions. ...crazy mike

  10. #10
    Aziz's Avatar
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    Crazy mike can I call you father lol anyways I'm so sorry about your injury but hey things get a little rough down the road but enjoy the moment and be prepared for the worse you just gotta learn to accept it and remember at the end of the day things do get better. Also you look better then most guys in their 20's take care have fun and god bless

    Yours truly

    Aziz

  11. #11
    Times Roman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy mike View Post
    Well I got a tell you guys. No one else understands. I am just besides myself, ****ed to the max. I blew out an umbilical hernia yesterday. Yep, I did. my father was a doc, I was born with one. and in the 80' I had to have it repaired. I know what they look like . I know how they feel. I know all about them and this is IT. If I just push a little, a little and it comes out. It doesn't look good or fell good. I couldn't go train today, or the next or the next until it is repaired. Sorry guys but no one around here understands how fvckin hard I've been training and being careful at that, working with an antique body. Ya know if any of you had sen me 6 months ago, I tell you the truth you would not believe my gains. I'm not trying to boast but others at the gym keep coming up to me. I'm not good, I'm not big, I'm in fact a small fvck. And old guy, gas been ya know and I just want to train. I am on SSD and I don't have to work I just want to train. Now back to square one, when. How long do I fvckin have at 61. I'm working on a up hill battle. Sorry but you guys just can't fathom this sh*t. Am I upset, ....SH*T... WHAT?...Do I feel sorry for myself am I crying in my sh*t, well please for give me but YES.
    Oh now get this how do I have surgery with no pain meds., huh. I have no natural pain defense left after what I did for so many years. They can't even give me anything close to what it wold take. No one can conceive of how much, Just saying not bragging, I'm a fvck up. SO Now give me pain meds, are you kidding. How do I defend that sh*t. Hey I'm a SERIOUS adict and bi-polar type I. So I like you all but don't even try to tell me just get strong. I will try dammit. But I am scared as Sh*t. Only 1yr and 3 months clean.
    So sorry but i just had to vent. Poor mike, oh poor a*s hole mike. My prize posesion, my VOLVO, unscratched, was hit while still in the parking lot at the gym entrance, last week, 103,000 miles only and it drives ok and they w ant to total it. Should I reup my pr*zac today, I'm out in a day. Huh. My days work around the gym. The gym doesn't work around my life. Yes I am fvckin upset an I have good reason. I am sad, anxious, fearful, angry but I'll be dammed if I'm going to be a statistic and let this get me to drvg and drink. But the pain management thing, I want to just lift and not loose what I've worked so hard for. ...crazy mike
    shit mike
    I've had one my whole life. My mom just called it an "outtie". but you are right. if I bear down, it pushes out like a balloon. there is no pain for me, just this funny belly button that balloons up when i exert myself.

    I know what you can do. put a ping pong ball over it and duct tape it down while you lift?

    .....sorry, didn't mean to make light of your situation

  12. #12
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    shit mike
    I've had one my whole life. My mom just called it an "outtie". but you are right. if I bear down, it pushes out like a balloon. there is no pain for me, just this funny belly button that balloons up when i exert myself.

    I know what you can do. put a ping pong ball over it and duct tape it down while you lift?

    .....sorry, didn't mean to make light of your situation
    Ha I am aware. When I was just a babe my mother had a silver dollar taped over it. I also had the outie, but in 80' it came out and didn't go back and that it will die and get infected. But this will push back in a hole and sting and go gush, swish....ouch. Gross, and not good. I will wait and not chance getting it bigger so the repair will be small. There is no way I could lift today and I was scared of making it worse. I was thinking about something under my belt.. I wear a leather belt when I lift. Hey this one is the first and the only belt I ever used. I kept it, ha,haaa ...crazy mike

    That belt is 33 yrs old.
    Last edited by crazy mike; 02-19-2013 at 08:42 PM.

  13. #13
    Times Roman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy mike View Post
    Ha I am aware. When I was just a babe my mother had a silver dollar taped over it. I also had the outie, but in 80' it came out and didn't go back and that it will die and get infected. But this will push back in a hole and sting and go gush, swish....ouch. Gross, and not good. I will wait and not chance getting it bigger so the repair will be small. There is no way I could lift today and I was scared of making it worse. I was thinking about something under my belt.. I wear a leather belt when I lift. Hey this one is the first and the only belt I ever used. I kept it, ha,haaa ...crazy mike
    does it hurt?

    I absolutely feel no pain with mine.

    with mine, I'm G2G as long as it doesn't spring a leak, and then if it did, all holy hell would break loose.

    but i've been lifting for years, and it's never been an issue

  14. #14
    PistolPete33's Avatar
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    It's not the end of the world. I had an umbilical hernia repair 2 years ago and it was a piece of cake. I NEVER took any drugs post surgery and the pain was fine. You'll be uncomfortable for a week or so and then you'll be fine. You'll be back to training in a month or so. Honestly don't sweat it and just don't take any pain meds and you'll be fine. I also had my hip replace last year and again just suck it up and push forward.

  15. #15
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Thanks guys. I know that it isn't like thew old days 80's. I had basic surgery and no scope work and it was a bitch. I had general anesthesia and it was heavy for some reason. I've had other surgeries and it wasn't bad. The pain after was. But I hear the laparscopic is OK and not bad. I just have no natural pain defense in my system after using such high levels for so long. But anyway I will see the doc and go from there. But no way I can even lift the bag of dog food right now. it pops out, and stings when I push it in.
    My level of anxiety, frustration and the pain med, (not the pain) fear is running high. You don't know me. I haven't missed one day since November 1th at this gym. 5 days and this month 6 doing legs on Sunday. I don't have to miss on my life schedule. Ok I'll stop now. And thanks for all your support. Just got a text from a friend (non-lifter) giving me sh*t... "hey mike you need to quit that Sh*t your to old to do that, now ". I haven't text him back. My wife read what you guys said to me and she told me the hell with him and the others, You got some nice new friends that seem to be caring and respecting so don't let them down. Way to cool for her to say that. That's it now thanks everyone. ...crazy old mike

  16. #16
    Aziz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy mike
    Thanks guys. I know that it isn't like thew old days 80's. I had basic surgery and no scope work and it was a bitch. I had general anesthesia and it was heavy for some reason. I've had other surgeries and it wasn't bad. The pain after was. But I hear the laparscopic is OK and not bad. I just have no natural pain defense in my system after using such high levels for so long. But anyway I will see the doc and go from there. But no way I can even lift the bag of dog food right now. it pops out, and stings when I push it in.
    My level of anxiety, frustration and the pain med, (not the pain) fear is running high. You don't know me. I haven't missed one day since November 1th at this gym. 5 days and this month 6 doing legs on Sunday. I don't have to miss on my life schedule. Ok I'll stop now. And thanks for all your support. Just got a text from a friend (non-lifter) giving me sh*t... "hey mike you need to quit that Sh*t your to old to do that, now ". I haven't text him back. My wife read what you guys said to me and she told me the hell with him and the others, You got some nice new friends that seem to be caring and respecting so don't let them down. Way to cool for her to say that. That's it now thanks everyone. ...crazy old mike
    Nope only crazy mike take out the old

  17. #17
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aziz View Post
    Nope only crazy mike take out the old
    Thanks man, you are kind. ...cm

  18. #18
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    Damn that sucks old bro. . . . My dad went through the same exact shit in his early 40's. One surgery then a few years later I believe he had to go back for another one. He never lifts, it was just from his awful job.

    Somehow the genes treated me very well. Both of my parents are tiny(under 5.5) - Yet I'm 5'10".

    Life sometimes really hands you turds for sure. After seeing everything around me, I figure life only gets easy when we croak. Everything else throughout life is a challenge. Which we can whine about or just deal with.

    Still man, @ 61 you are damn well. Especially for having that kind of life style.

    Keep at it, just take it a bit easier.

  19. #19
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    Hey CM, sorry to hear about the injury brother. They absolutely suck. As a recovering smack addict I totally feel your pain when it comes to the painkillers of any kind. One pill and it can be back off to the fvcking races just like that. I have 18 months clean myself and lifting is basically the only thing keeping me sane. I do worry about injuries and what i am gonna do when I eventually get one. Sooner or later it is going to result in me getting surgery and that doc prescribin me pills. Stay strong friend. Aint nothin in the world that would bring me back to using, even though it gets on my mind at times. Keep your head up, and as always... Time heals everything.

  20. #20
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElDude View Post
    Hey CM, sorry to hear about the injury brother. They absolutely suck. As a recovering smack addict I totally feel your pain when it comes to the painkillers of any kind. One pill and it can be back off to the fvcking races just like that. I have 18 months clean myself and lifting is basically the only thing keeping me sane. I do worry about injuries and what i am gonna do when I eventually get one. Sooner or later it is going to result in me getting surgery and that doc prescribin me pills. Stay strong friend. Aint nothin in the world that would bring me back to using, even though it gets on my mind at times. Keep your head up, and as always... Time heals everything.
    Man I see you know, I mean if true you know. But I will just have to cross that bridge when it happens, with some what of a plan. Some don't believe this and think oh bull sh*t you just wanna get some pity and wanna dramatize this thing about the opiates, but I will tell you the honest trut. If I went back I will surely die. I would want to die and I would go out in a blast (dose). If anyone thinks that that's bull, well they (thank God ) have never been close to it.
    ENOUGH about that. I'm lost today, slept in, now guilty for that, ate crap last night, belly blown up, I feel smoother already, Why watch my diet, what do I do all day, what is my purpose each day now. I'm on hold. I can beging to work on the recovery once I get the docs and the surgery done. But i am just waiting for doc calls.

    I'm scared but I think I'm gonna go in and try some bicep / tricep fixed bench work. But I still tighten up in my ab so ? huh ? atrophy sets in in two days. I have to try something. ...crazy mike

  21. #21
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    Mike I woke up in the middle of the night and my rotator cuff was hurting. Have strained or torn it three times no surgery only rehab exercises which have helped greatly. I got in there today and did my normal shoulder warm up and rehab routine (cable rear delt, reverse pec deck, innies and outties with a band exercise, raise broomstick over my head). I was able to do my shoulder routine but wasn't able to go heavy on anything. I was just happy to be in there though moving weight feeling the squeeze and contraction with almost perfect form. Will save all the cheat reps for bicep day which I almost never have any pains or tweaks on. I see bodybuilding as a sprint when you are trying for a short term goal and a marathon overall. I have met guys who were big guys just giants among men and gotten to know them and been told they use to compete in PL or BB ing. Seen the pics couldn't believe it. I think the worst mistake we can make is to get caught up into this idea that if I can't look the way I looked at 25 whats the point. Its just not true. I always look at today. I love being told I don't look my age and I love being in the top echelon of guys in shape my age.

  22. #22
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Quote Originally Posted by cherrydrpepper View Post
    Mike I woke up in the middle of the night and my rotator cuff was hurting. Have strained or torn it three times no surgery only rehab exercises which have helped greatly. I got in there today and did my normal shoulder warm up and rehab routine (cable rear delt, reverse pec deck, innies and outties with a band exercise, raise broomstick over my head). I was able to do my shoulder routine but wasn't able to go heavy on anything. I was just happy to be in there though moving weight feeling the squeeze and contraction with almost perfect form. Will save all the cheat reps for bicep day which I almost never have any pains or tweaks on. I see bodybuilding as a sprint when you are trying for a short term goal and a marathon overall. I have met guys who were big guys just giants among men and gotten to know them and been told they use to compete in PL or BB ing. Seen the pics couldn't believe it. I think the worst mistake we can make is to get caught up into this idea that if I can't look the way I looked at 25 whats the point. Its just not true. I always look at today. I love being told I don't look my age and I love being in the top echelon of guys in shape my age.
    Thanks so much. I will heed what you have said. That's a great statement " I love being told I don't look my age" and I hear that everyday, but i I hold myself up to most on here and then It gets real. But we are who we are and we're at where we're at.

    So anyway I'm gonna stop at the gym and see if I can do some light arm work keeping my abs out of it, hmm,? Also can't figure out what tp do with my present begining cycle of Decca and Winsrtol. I get on another thread about that later in the day. ...crazy mike

  23. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy mike View Post
    Man I see you know, I mean if true you know. But I will just have to cross that bridge when it happens, with some what of a plan. Some don't believe this and think oh bull sh*t you just wanna get some pity and wanna dramatize this thing about the opiates, but I will tell you the honest trut. If I went back I will surely die. I would want to die and I would go out in a blast (dose). If anyone thinks that that's bull, well they (thank God ) have never been close to it.
    ENOUGH about that. I'm lost today, slept in, now guilty for that, ate crap last night, belly blown up, I feel smoother already, Why watch my diet, what do I do all day, what is my purpose each day now. I'm on hold. I can beging to work on the recovery once I get the docs and the surgery done. But i am just waiting for doc calls.

    I'm scared but I think I'm gonna go in and try some bicep / tricep fixed bench work. But I still tighten up in my ab so ? huh ? atrophy sets in in two days. I have to try something. ...crazy mike
    I started slammin early but luckily got out of it early. Can't dramatize shit about opiates, if I take one it clicks that ON switch in my head and I won't stop. But you are right, ENOUGH about that. Don't overdo it in the gym today.

  24. #24
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Quote Originally Posted by ElDude View Post
    I started slammin early but luckily got out of it early. Can't dramatize shit about opiates, if I take one it clicks that ON switch in my head and I won't stop. But you are right, ENOUGH about that. Don't overdo it in the gym today.
    Again thanks. We agree on that's enough abut that ! So I didn't go. I am confused and sacred to try. Sleeping in and not eating correctly etc.. through me off, so the day is gone. I did a light dumbbell movement and it didn't pop out. So I'll try tomorrow. Legs were up for today's schedule but that is OUT of the question. Gotta get a good nights sleep and start off, up and out in the am and kick this poor mike thing. ...crazy mike

  25. #25
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Got an appointment with my GP doc tomorrow for my referal to the surgeon. ...crazy mike

    Gonna go today to the gym and see if I can do some light arms. I'll know right off the bat, later ...cm

  26. #26
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    Best of luck Mike!!

  27. #27
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    Hey Mike!

    I'm not gonna minimize the stuff you have going on, or try and relate to it. I'm not gonna tell you to hang tough. I'm just gonna say one thing.

    You're awesome.

    You crazy bastard....

  28. #28
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigshotvictoria View Post
    Hey Mike!

    I'm not gonna minimize the stuff you have going on, or try and relate to it. I'm not gonna tell you to hang tough. I'm just gonna say one thing.

    You're awesome.

    You crazy bastard....
    Ha, I am a crazy bastard ! , I just got home from the gym. I spent the afternoon trying different things out to see what I could do without using my abs. So I can work Tri's with a seated tri machine, and a one arm cable push downs and one arm cable reverse grip pull downs for tri's. Oh I can do calves...haaa. I did biceps curls on a machine being real real strict so as not to use my other body parts. I couldn't go to heavy. Then I went back to the cables and did some concentrated one arm curls. I was able of course to get in the 30 min ion the bike to keep the OLD MAN fatty tissue of the waist and to sweat the water out. That's all for now but it felt so good to be there and know that I'll still be able to hang in there. So I gotta get the docs to drop what they are doing (right) and do this so I can get on with recovery.

    I have to say I am just a little sore but it didn't pop out.....crazy mike

  29. #29
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Well I went back to the gym and did some chest some different bis and tris again just to get more feel and things and the bike again and now I'm a little sore at the umbilical site. Not good to night. Don't know if I should do this until after the surgery. Oh met with the Gp and I'll meet the surgeon Mon /Tues. Now that I'm sore there, I remember what it's like and it aint gonna be fun. ...crazy mike down for the count maybe.

  30. #30
    TheClinch's Avatar
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    Hey Mike sorry to hear about the hernia. I had a left inguinal hernia some years back. Started out as a grape sized lump when the intestine was hanging out. I'd push it back in and cringe every time... needless to say I couldn't do much in the way of training.
    I still had to work everyday though (bridge construction at the time) and by the time my surgery came around I had a large egg sized lump. I'd have to bunch up a sock and tape it to a belt then wear the belt right over the herniated area to help keep the intestine inside in fear of it tearing...

    Point is take it easy man, I cant speak for an umbilical hernia but I do know that an inguinal hernia can grow in size if not cared for. Well anyways, thats my $.02

    I wish you all the best Mike, I've been following some of your posts and I really appreciate your point of view. Even of it cuts like a knife some days!

  31. #31
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    I wish you all the best Mike, I've been following some of your posts and I really appreciate your point of view. Even of it cuts like a knife some days![/QUOTE]

    Thanks my friend. Don't know what I've said the cuts like a knife, but I guess that's cool ...crazy mike

  32. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazy mike View Post
    I wish you all the best Mike, I've been following some of your posts and I really appreciate your point of view. Even of it cuts like a knife some days!
    Thanks my friend. Don't know what I've said the cuts like a knife, but I guess that's cool ...crazy mike[/QUOTE]

    Nothing in particular Mike. But I was around when you tore Euroholic a new a$$ hole for the whole miscarriage thread. Dont get me wrong I agreed with you 100%.

    Anyways, you keep in mad real in here and many of the members sem to need it.

    Keep up the crazy good work pal

  33. #33
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheClinch View Post
    Thanks my friend. Don't know what I've said the cuts like a knife, but I guess that's cool ...crazy mike
    Nothing in particular Mike. But I was around when you tore Euroholic a new a$$ hole for the whole miscarriage thread. Dont get me wrong I agreed with you 100%.

    Anyways, you keep in mad real in here and many of the members sem to need it.

    Keep up the crazy good work pal[/QUOTE]



  34. #34
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    lovbyts is offline Knowledgeable Member
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    It's all just part of life and a speed bump in the road. By no means does it mean your finished. Look at my last 2 years. If that isnt enough go back 5 years for me and you will find a LOT of speed bumps in my life where most people would have given up. To me it just means I have to work a little harder, a lot smarter and longer than I had originally planned to get where I want to be.

  35. #35
    crazy mike is offline Banned for repping Dangerous Substances
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    Quote Originally Posted by lovbyts View Post
    It's all just part of life and a speed bump in the road. By no means does it mean your finished. Look at my last 2 years. If that isnt enough go back 5 years for me and you will find a LOT of speed bumps in my life where most people would have given up. To me it just means I have to work a little harder, a lot smarter and longer than I had originally planned to get where I want to be.
    Morning I just got this and thanks for the promising words. I know you're right . I was going thru the initial pity party ya know. But I'm not young, so I'll work harder but more important smarter , Thx ...crazy mike

    Oh, If I was to be set back two yrs then I'll be 63....huh,. Don't want to think bout that. Won't be very long...cm

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