Philosophical Discussion: Do you think people are born bad or do they learn it?

[Times Roman]

I'm not talking about everyone, but those that are "career criminals", rapists, and psychopaths, what do you think?

I mean, most of the gay community would support the argument they are more or less, born gay. So is it possible that some are born psychopaths? (and please don't get cute by trying to link the two, ok?)

[Black]

I can see that side of it. There could be some sort of chemical imbalance in the brain. But I feel A LOT of changes happen during early childhood development in which the environment (upbringing) has a HUGE impact.

[Hazard]

My initial thought is that they learn the behavior and is a product of environment. Then again there are very wealthy people who do evil things even though they had the best of everything.

I guess it depends on the types of crimes. Stealing, drugs, murders, gangs, etc are more often then not a product of someone growing up around it. Your friends all sell drugs so you do too......

Cases like dahmer, btk, SOS, etc....... Those people are born with issues. Maybe they weren't born killers but they either lack somethin genetically or they build a desire based upon a lack of something and they develop this sickness.

[Hazard]

Good question TR.....

[Times Roman]

some say environmental, others say biological/genetic.

then there is the interesting case of the identical twins that were separated at birth and both became fireman. Having said that, and notice I used the term "interesting", is that from a statistical standpoint, this one case is statistically insignificant. But still interesting.

even hitler thought he was doing the world a public service by his actions.

[Hazard]

Hitlers concept is on point in regards to breeding the strong etc..... When applied to animals. That's how we end up with dog breeds and show winners.

When applied to humans..... It doesn't make sense. What are your goals? People have such an array of skills that breeding one superhuman race is crazy if not impossible. Who's to say blonde hair and blue eyes is perfect? Hitler? What makes brown hair and brown eyes less perfect?

We're more complex and we need to be able to do more than just look pretty. We're all perfect..... In our own way. Except austinite...... Who's just a train wreck

[slfmade]

Ahh the Great "nature vs nurture" debate. One of my favorites and one that can easily get hostile. I say in all cases it's nurture.

[Times Roman]

Hitlers concept is on point in regards to breeding the strong etc..... When applied to animals. That's how we end up with dog breeds and show winners.

When applied to humans..... It doesn't make sense. What are your goals? People have such an array of skills that breeding one superhuman race is crazy if not impossible. Who's to say blonde hair and blue eyes is perfect? Hitler? What makes brown hair and brown eyes less perfect?

We're more complex and we need to be able to do more than just look pretty. We're all perfect..... In our own way. Except austinite...... Who's just a train wreck

i'll pm you. what I'm about to say is not fit for public consumption

[austinite]

Both. Some have imbalances that trigger irrational behavior, while others are a product of poor upbringings. I find that we can't generalize this, however. There's a tremendous difference between thieves and rapists and what goes on in their minds. As for being born this way... yes, it's possible for someone to be born with a defective and/or out of order brain.

Could intellectual disabilities trigger criminal activity? Absolutely. However, this does not happen overnight and preventative measure can most certainly be put in place; hence the upbringing. 'Follow the leader' plays a remarkable role with folks, regardless of their intellectual status.

Are their any cases where parents are not to blame? Of course. However, this is quite rare. So rare, it's not worth considering.

Keep in mind I'm not speaking of the typical rebel teenager that we all once were. I'm speaking of career criminals.

[Lunk1]

I am a firm believer in nurture vs nature.

[Times Roman]

Hitlers concept is on point in regards to breeding the strong etc..... When applied to animals. That's how we end up with dog breeds and show winners.

When applied to humans..... It doesn't make sense. What are your goals? People have such an array of skills that breeding one superhuman race is crazy if not impossible. Who's to say blonde hair and blue eyes is perfect? Hitler? What makes brown hair and brown eyes less perfect?

We're more complex and we need to be able to do more than just look pretty. We're all perfect..... In our own way. Except austinite...... Who's just a train wreck

Rumor has it that Austinite is female. Haven't you been paying attention to the threads? =)

[HitIt]

both

[austinite]

Rumor has it that Austinite is female. Haven't you been paying attention to the threads? =)

Blasphemy! And here I was packing chicken and tuna cans to ship to you. I stole them from Hazard. Criminal Mind!

[Times Roman]

Blasphemy! And here I was packing chicken and tuna cans to ship to you. I stole them from Hazard. Criminal Mind!

let it be known that as the chivalrous gentleman that I am, I threw down my coat so that when you crossed the street, you wouldn't get mud on your stilettos. And now you are suggesting that this gesture was not received in the spirit in which it was given?

OMG!!!!

[lovbyts]

I believe its 95% nurture and 5% nature or there abouts.

[Hrothgar]

I think it the case of psychopaths its a mixture of genetic and social influence. But mostly social influence. If you look at the background of many famous serial killers most of them had some pretty traumatizing childhoods. A lot of people do and most people don't end up that way, but it always seemed like those type of people never figured out how to cope with things.

[DAAS]

The born gay thing interests me. I don't really understand that one. I mean we don't really develop a sexual desire until much later in life. Although it is possible to develop one before puberty, I don't see how some one can be born with a sexual preference. I think its all in the events that unfold in early life that might shape that, but I also don't believe you have to be a victim of abuse or a similar situation to become gay. Is it actually common for a homosexual to claim they were born gay? Being gay for as long as someone can remember is not the same. I can't really remember to much before I was the age of around 6.

[marcus300]

There is evidence that both behaviour is learnt and also some individuals are born with these traits. If you put a person through psychopathic testing you will see that there is a high level of these individuals that have less activity in certain parts of the brain like the neurons which have an effect on the emotions, anger, pleasure and fear side. There is a test which shows the response and brain activity to show if someone is expressing psychopathic tendencies and if these characteristic are shown to be there by certain criminals certain things can be put into place to protect further harm to the public. Something can also trigger this imbalance in the brain and it can also be learnt over time but the most disturbing ones are the people who are born this way IMHO .

[Metalject]

Surroundings definitely play a role and I'm sure when it comes to some of the ultimate nut jobs there are possible imbalances in the brain. However, more so than anything with a few minor exceptions, it all boils down to choice. Hate, anger, envy and jealousy are all natural human feelings, but how we deal with them is up to the individual. Even desires that do not fall into such a black and white state of good an evil, in the end, which side of the line we fall closest to is a choice. And desires can be changed based on choice: I may hate someone's guts to the point of truly wishing them dead, I may even have a desire to pull the trigger. But as time passes and i choose not to act on that desire, that same desire begins to fade away. I act on the desire, then it becomes easier and even more acceptable in my mind to act upon in the future.

In short, we are born evil or with evil intent - it takes effort to go the other direction.

[Euroholic]

Everything is free will. No excuse. Just like fleet wood mac says. "Go your own way"

[redz]

I have met gay people who claim they were straight then changed. They are typically far less flamboyant than typical gay men. I have also seen cases where abuse seems to be a factor in people being gay.

[Black]

I don't believe people are born gay. Even they can't prove that. Something could easily happen to the development of the brain during infancy into childhood.

Like stated above, there's a certain time when our memory starts to develop. Up until then, its like being SUPER drunk.

[Euroholic]

I have met gay people who claim they were straight then changed. They are typically far less flamboyant than typical gay men. I have also seen cases where abuse seems to be a factor in people being gay.

Agree. People need to accept the fact that their responsible for there life style choices. Be it a smoker, serial rapist, homosexual, non homosexual etc etc. predisposition or not everyone is in control of the actions they choose!!!!!
Don't have a chip on your shoulder and say its not my fault blah blah just except it is your choice.

[kelkel]

I have dated many gay people who claim they were straight then changed. They are typically far less flamboyant than typical gay men. I have also seen cases where abuse seems to be a factor in people being gay.

Interesting.

[diesel101]

I believe that we are "pre wired" with some tendencies when we are born whether they are violent,gay,happy,etc but it is how we are raised if those good or bad tendencies will come out in us.

[RaginCajun]

I don't believe people are born gay. Even they can't prove that. Something could easily happen to the development of the brain during infancy into childhood. Like stated above, there's a certain time when our memory starts to develop. Up until then, its like being SUPER drunk.

i watched a family down the street have 3 kids. the oldest is a super hot blonde who modeled, the youngest a stud young golfer, and the middle child is gay. ever since i have known them, she has always dressed and wanted to be a boy. even when she was very young, she did not want to wear dresses or play with dolls. she is now about to graduate high school and is still the same person she was a baby.

[slfmade]

i watched a family down the street have 3 kids. the oldest is a super hot blonde who modeled, the youngest a stud young golfer, and the middle child is gay. ever since i have known them, she has always dressed and wanted to be a boy. even when she was very young, she did not want to wear dresses or play with dolls. she is now about to graduate high school and is still the same person she was a baby.

This could have everything to do with being a middle child. As a middle child the pressure to be as good or better than both the elder and younger siblings can be very great. If for whatever genetic factors (physical/mental) the middle child cannot achieve this, it puts a lot of stress on that child and can cause the child to go to extremes to find their own identity. Often when someone is lacking or not fitting in they will go to extremes. I mean....do you think kids these days are born emo? LOL

[RaginCajun]

This could have everything to do with being a middle child. As a middle child the pressure to be as good or better than both the elder and younger siblings can be very great. If for whatever genetic factors (physical/mental) the middle child cannot achieve this, it puts a lot of stress on that child and can cause the child to go to extremes to find their own identity. Often when someone is lacking or not fitting in they will go to extremes. I mean....do you think kids these days are born emo? LOL

in some ways, yes, it is the middle child syndrone, but she was like this as a kid before the little brother came along. EMO kids, what the hell is that anyways.

[Times Roman]

Everything is free will. No excuse. Just like fleet wood mac says. "Go your own way"

I believe that we are "pre wired" with some tendencies when we are born whether they are violent,gay,happy,etc but it is how we are raised if those good or bad tendencies will come out in us.

I don't think it is 100% either way.

if a gay man chose to be gay, (free will), then why would they (in certain cases) risk death? (There have been way too many documented cases where gays have been tortured/killed). I can't imagine an argument where someone was trying to convince me in these particular cases, the real intent is to be a gay martyr. Can you? And there have been far too many documented cases where the gay individual was so traumatized, they began wishing with all their soul they were no longer gay. If it is a "choice", the only real argument I can imagine is that early on, it had to have been some type of subconscious choice.

But even in certain rat populations, where over population is outstripping the food supply, the population turns homosexual and populations abate on their own. Is this really a decision? Do rats "decide"? Or is this hardwired into their brain. And why has the homosexual population held steady at around 10% all these years?

[Sicko]

I believe that people are born with traits and tendencies but it is how they learn to deal with obstacles, defeats and successes that mold them into adults. If a child is never held accountable for his/her actions the learned behaviors of coping with trauma, betrayal, hate, love, anger etc.. project into their ability to function as an adult. For instance if your child has ADHD and you as a parent constantly tell everyone..." well he/she has AHDD and that is why he/she acts like that" the child learns this is a scape goat for unacceptable behavior and never has to deal with the issue of failure or rejection.
I am not saying those types of behavioral issues do not require special attention but the child still needs to know that their are repercussions for these types of misconduct. Once you become an adult no one cares that you have ADHD.
You will go to jail for breaking the law or get fired for not performing at work.
So in summary... I do believe some people are born with psychological dysfunctions but I believe that it is a failure to learn how to cope with trauma and/or a lack of proper guidance that creates a monster with the ability to commit heinous crimes.

[lovbyts]

i watched a family down the street have 3 kids. the oldest is a super hot blonde who modeled, the youngest a stud young golfer, and the middle child is gay. ever since i have known them, she has always dressed and wanted to be a boy. even when she was very young, she did not want to wear dresses or play with dolls. she is now about to graduate high school and is still the same person she was a baby.

Send the middle child my way, I'll straighten her out. Like I have told many lesbians its ok, I'm also a lesbian caught in a mans body. :-)


How did those turn into a discussion about being gay or not?

[< <Samson> >]

Well,

This is a typical nature Vs. nurture argument

Nature seems to win damn near every time. If someone is born gay, they are gay. It is not a reversible thought process. This I would think goes for any other type of in-depth trait. If I seen people kill someone almost every day, I still don't see why I would have that same tendency.

This goes for all other extremes, such as rapists and child molesters. This type of shit just makes me personally cringe. Yet, there are those that find it "their thing".

Some of this I believe could be emphasized throughout life. Such as, if you are questioning something in your life - But, you were raised around it and seen it all throughout life. It might give you more of okay & go ahead - Yet, at the same time it can do the opposite.


This is what I have learned throughout my childhood into adulthood. I have zero interest or tendency to be like my parents or do as either one of them have. It actually makes me want to do the opposite.

[Lunk1]

We are born with the same fundamental needs, beyond that its all about outside influence.

[diesel101]

We are born with the same fundamental needs, beyond that its all about outside influence.

Ok DR Lunk! Don't you have to go beat somebody with a night stick?

[Lunk1]

Ok DR Lunk! Don't you have to go beat somebody with a night stick?

Met my quota of bribes and evidence planting for the day.

[Sicko]

Met my quota of bribes and evidence planting for the day.

Ahhh... but have you indiscriminately profiled anyone today...someone out there definitely looks guilty of something...ehehhehh...

[GirlyGymRat]

let it be known that as the chivalrous gentleman that I am, I threw down my coat so that when you crossed the street, you wouldn't get mud on your stilettos. And now you are suggesting that this gesture was not received in the spirit in which it was given?

OMG!!!!

That would be such a turn on for me. Gentleman wins here every time!!!

[GirlyGymRat]

Back on topic.
By age of 2, the influence of nurturing / boundaries or no boundaries is apparent.

[Times Roman]

That would be such a turn on for me. Gentleman wins here every time!!!

you and your shoes.....

......too funny!

[Times Roman]

Back on topic.
By age of 2, the influence of nurturing / boundaries or no boundaries is apparent.

autism can be derived from a lack of love. (autism, right?). kids that are not "stroked" by a certain age withdraw and are, more or less, damaged for life.