Philosophical Discussion: Do you think people are born bad or do they learn it?

**Euroholic** · 05-02-2014, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I don't think it is 100% either way.

if a gay man chose to be gay, (free will), then why would they (in certain cases) risk death? (There have been way too many documented cases where gays have been tortured/killed). I can't imagine an argument where someone was trying to convince me in these particular cases, the real intent is to be a gay martyr. Can you? And there have been far too many documented cases where the gay individual was so traumatized, they began wishing with all their soul they were no longer gay. If it is a "choice", the only real argument I can imagine is that early on, it had to have been some type of subconscious choice.

But even in certain rat populations, where over population is outstripping the food supply, the population turns homosexual and populations abate on their own. Is this really a decision? Do rats "decide"? Or is this hardwired into their brain. And why has the homosexual population held steady at around 10% all these years?

Just say as a example If i see a hot women walking down the street its my free will whether or not i attempt to rape her. Same reason a gay man decides to be gay he likes it. Im not a homosexual but i could go out tomorrow and live the lifestyle of a gay man and put on a accent. But i choice not to because it does not appeal to me. Free will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

**Times Roman** · 05-02-2014, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by Euroholic

Just say as a example If i see a hot women walking down the street its my free will whether or not i attempt to rape her. Same reason a gay man decides to be gay he likes it. Im not a homosexual but i could go out tomorrow and live the lifestyle of a gay man and put on a accent. But i choice not to because it does not appeal to me. Free will!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm not sure that is a very good analogy. Raping a woman is a brutal act. Most homosexuals will tell you their attraction to men is just as strong as my attraction to women. It's really not much of a choice. The feeling of attraction is a compelling one.

You can't really say your attraction to women is a choice, can you?

**slfmade** · 05-02-2014, 07:05 PM

There seems to be an equal amount of studies suggesting that autism is just as likely caused by environmental factors as biological factors.

**Euroholic** · 05-02-2014, 07:26 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I'm not sure that is a very good analogy. Raping a woman is a brutal act. Most homosexuals will tell you their attraction to men is just as strong as my attraction to women. It's really not much of a choice. The feeling of attraction is a compelling one.

You can't really say your attraction to women is a choice, can you?

Well it is a choice. I know its illegal to use dbol but i do it anyway out of my free will. People make there own choices. I have just as much free will as anybody else to be gay but im not utilizing that right. See what im getting at? People need to except there choices.

**Euroholic** · 05-02-2014, 07:30 PM

If you say gays have a predisposition then that opens up a big flood gate. What about peodophiles? Are they hard wired like that? Or have they used there free will?

**Hazard** · 05-02-2014, 08:29 PM

Originally Posted by Euroholic

Well it is a choice. I know its illegal to use dbol but i do it anyway out of my free will. People make there own choices. I have just as much free will as anybody else to be gay but im not utilizing that right. See what im getting at? People need to except there choices.

But do you have a compelling need to use dbol ?

That analogy sucks man lol

Ok..... There are two girls infront of you but you are more attracted to one than the other. Why? It's what you prefer. It's not a flip of a coin. You can't help whom you fall in love with..... No matter the sex. You see what I mean?

**trikydik** · 05-03-2014, 08:00 AM

Psychopaths are born that way... sociopaths are created.

A sociopath or a person with antisocial disorder is characterized by a pervasive pattern of disregard for, or violation of, the rights of others. There may be an impoverished moral sense or conscience and a history of crime, legal problems, impulsive and aggressive behavior. An example of a sociopath is Gary Gilmore, who murdered two young men in cold blood and then refused to appeal his death sentence. He was executed in Utah in 1977. Gary knew what he was doing was wrong. He felt sorry for the 2 men he killed, but he did it anyway.

Psychopathy builds on the antisocial disorder by having a diminished or complete lack of empathy.

You can be both a sociopath or psychopath but not be a criminal. Surprisingly a lot of people who score low-moderate to moderate of the psychopath testing charts grow up to be doctors and CEO's...

**Times Roman** · 05-03-2014, 09:40 AM

Originally Posted by Euroholic

Well it is a choice. I know its illegal to use dbol but i do it anyway out of my free will. People make there own choices. I have just as much free will as anybody else to be gay but im not utilizing that right. See what im getting at? People need to except there choices.

Say you hooked up with this hottie at a bar, and you take her to your place, and she gives you oral pleasures, then insists on finishing you off with her letting you go anal, and it was really good. Only until after, then next day, when she is coming out of the shower, do you notice testicles. Do you just shrug your shoulders and say, "oh well, it was a choice?" Or do you feel a little sick and betrayed, now knowing your hottie is a man? Answer that question, and then we can continue our discussion of whether orientation is a choice or a compulsion.

Originally Posted by Euroholic

If you say gays have a predisposition then that opens up a big flood gate. What about peodophiles? Are they hard wired like that? Or have they used there free will?

Being gay involves two consenting adults.

Being a pedophile involves someone else's minor child, and in most cases, has zero sexual experience. Most victims of pedophilia later will describe their experience as traumatic, confusing, with feelings of betrayal thrown in there as well. Pedophiliacs may be hardwired, but since it involves a non consenting partner, then it makes that particular orientation anti social, and also a form of rape.

**slfmade** · 05-03-2014, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

Say you hooked up with this hottie at a bar, and you take her to your place, and she gives you oral pleasures, then insists on finishing you off with her letting you go anal, and it was really good. Only until after, then next day, when she is coming out of the shower, do you notice testicles. Do you just shrug your shoulders and say, "oh well, it was a choice?" Or do you feel a little sick and betrayed, now knowing your hottie is a man? Answer that question, and then we can continue our discussion of whether orientation is a choice or a compulsion.

Being gay involves two consenting adults.

Being a pedophile involves someone else's minor child, and in most cases, has zero sexual experience. Most victims of pedophilia later will describe their experience as traumatic, confusing, with feelings of betrayal thrown in there as well. Pedophiliacs may be hardwired, but since it involves a non consenting partner, then it makes that particular orientation anti social, and also a form of rape.

Unless you're a 16 year old boy and the the pedophile is your hot 21yr old female teacher/tudor/baby sitter...Right? haha

**Times Roman** · 05-03-2014, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by slfmade

Unless you're a 16 year old boy and the the pedophile is your hot 21yr old female teacher/tudor/baby sitter...Right? haha

there was a time in our country where very young girls were married off. I'm talking barely out of puberty. To men much older.

**lovbyts** · 05-03-2014, 10:49 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

there was a time in our country where very young girls were married off. I'm talking barely out of puberty. To men much older.

Wait, what you mean thats not still practiced?

Yeah people seem to think that was back in the stone age but it was still common practice less than 80 years ago. What's funny is how they keep thinking by making new laws somehow it will stop or change puberty and biological urges in kids.

Dont get me wrong, I'm not condoning an adult messing with kids in any way but some of these laws are just to cut and dry such as if you are 18 and have a girlfriend who is 16 or 15 you can be charged with statutory rape even if nothing really happens and you are marked for life as a predator.

**trikydik** · 05-04-2014, 05:34 AM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Dont get me wrong, I'm not condoning an adult messing with kids in any way but some of these laws are just to cut and dry such as if you are 18 and have a girlfriend who is 16 or 15 you can be charged with statutory rape even if nothing really happens and you are marked for life as a predator.

That happened here in Indy about 10 years ago to a co-worker... He was a young kid 18 or 19 who had been dating this girl he met while he was in high school. Her parents filed rape charges against him when he turned 18 because they didn't like him. He got hit with the sexual predator tag... was pretty messed up. Daughter had no say because she was under 18. If I remember right, she filed with the court when she turned 18 to have the charges dropped... not sure what happened...

**Chicagotarsier** · 05-04-2014, 08:35 AM

1. Having served during Desert Shield/Storm and marched to Baghdad I saw human qualities that differ person to person. Taking the life of another person for instance. Some people had issue doing it period, some had issue doing it the first time and not the times after, some had no issue the first or any time. This brings up two instances...those that can and those that can not with a third not so clear choice...can not but do and then can. At most from this I can say that environment and teaching has input toward moral compass.

2. My best friend in school form 3rd grade to 9th was the middle of 5 children. From the earliest ages the youngest of the 5 displayed unnatural tendancies toward an indifference and actual "like" of removing life from living creatures. At 32 months the child placed 6 baby kittens in a drier and turned it on killing them with no remorse or understanding it was Fed up. Was he predisposed to be a serial killer or was it just the one extreme of normal? He was raised with 4 brothers that kicked his behind daily with little to no parental input.

3. I was raised in a very strict and religious environment and have a very caring side to me I show 99% of the time. During Storm/Shield I had no problem taking life and was considered above average at the task. I have no violent tendencies and live a peaceful life but do not allow myself to be pushed around by anyone (male or female). Everything taught to me by my parents was non-violent but I was good at violence.

So what does it all mean?

Some people are wired Fd up in my opinion. Taking into consideration what I know from life experience I would estimate of normal people (those without some medical condition that is known) 1 in 10K are just really wired wrong from birth. I would say 1 in 3-4000 are forced wired wrong via their upbringing. I do not consider stupidity as "wired wrong" or "lazy mofo" or "cries over facebook" as wired wrong...I think they are just the weak and eventually will be lambs when survival of the fittest trumps socialism again.

**Times Roman** · 05-04-2014, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Chicagotarsier

1. Having served during Desert Shield/Storm and marched to Baghdad I saw human qualities that differ person to person. Taking the life of another person for instance. Some people had issue doing it period, some had issue doing it the first time and not the times after, some had no issue the first or any time. This brings up two instances...those that can and those that can not with a third not so clear choice...can not but do and then can. At most from this I can say that environment and teaching has input toward moral compass.

2. My best friend in school form 3rd grade to 9th was the middle of 5 children. From the earliest ages the youngest of the 5 displayed unnatural tendancies toward an indifference and actual "like" of removing life from living creatures. At 32 months the child placed 6 baby kittens in a drier and turned it on killing them with no remorse or understanding it was Fed up. Was he predisposed to be a serial killer or was it just the one extreme of normal? He was raised with 4 brothers that kicked his behind daily with little to no parental input.

3. I was raised in a very strict and religious environment and have a very caring side to me I show 99% of the time. During Storm/Shield I had no problem taking life and was considered above average at the task. I have no violent tendencies and live a peaceful life but do not allow myself to be pushed around by anyone (male or female). Everything taught to me by my parents was non-violent but I was good at violence.

So what does it all mean?

Some people are wired Fd up in my opinion. Taking into consideration what I know from life experience I would estimate of normal people (those without some medical condition that is known) 1 in 10K are just really wired wrong from birth. I would say 1 in 3-4000 are forced wired wrong via their upbringing. I do not consider stupidity as "wired wrong" or "lazy mofo" or "cries over facebook" as wired wrong...I think they are just the weak and eventually will be lambs when survival of the fittest trumps socialism again.

I think I agree with most of this.

99.99% of people are basically good.

But every once in a while, one is born with something wrong/different with their brain, and it seems they take pleasure in seeing others suffer, for what ever reason.

I think gayness can be a choice. But not always. I've seen first hand, as many here have, the pain society brings on those that are gay, and for some where gayness is not a choice, I've heard (indirectly) that gayness is like a curse too. Not the actual orientation part, but the grief the orientation brings.

**Times Roman** · 05-04-2014, 10:29 AM

where's Shol'va?

**Honkey_Kong** · 05-04-2014, 01:33 PM

People by nature are selfish cvnts looking out for themselves. Being good I believe is what is taught to people.

**Honkey_Kong** · 05-04-2014, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

I think I agree with most of this. 99.99% of people are basically good. But every once in a while, one is born with something wrong/different with their brain, and it seems they take pleasure in seeing others suffer, for what ever reason. I think gayness can be a choice. But not always. I've seen first hand, as many here have, the pain society brings on those that are gay, and for some where gayness is not a choice, I've heard (indirectly) that gayness is like a curse too. Not the actual orientation part, but the grief the orientation brings.

I don't know if it's a choice or not. I didn't make a choice to like girls. I just do.

Now I don't think anyone is born gay or straight. When I was a kid I didn't think of sex at all. And I'm willing to bet you didn't either. I also bet gay people didn't. So I'm sure the events in ones life determine their orientation.

But I'm sure the social stigma for gays can be pretty bad. But it doesn't have to be either. They can surround themselves around people who accept them for who they are. Sure they'll come across a few bad elements every now and then, but doesn't everybody?

**Times Roman** · 05-04-2014, 02:29 PM

Originally Posted by Honkey_Kong

I don't know if it's a choice or not. I didn't make a choice to like girls. I just do.

Now I don't think anyone is born gay or straight. When I was a kid I didn't think of sex at all. And I'm willing to bet you didn't either. I also bet gay people didn't. So I'm sure the events in ones life determine their orientation.

But I'm sure the social stigma for gays can be pretty bad. But it doesn't have to be either. They can surround themselves around people who accept them for who they are. Sure they'll come across a few bad elements every now and then, but doesn't everybody?

I started thinking of sex around age 5 or so. Wasn't really sure what it was.

I knew a young kid in my school that acted very differently from other kids. was feminine acting to a certain extent. didn't like hanging out with other boys. nothing sexual was going on. he was in the second grade. later I found out he was gay.

You don't have to be sexual to be gay. It's also a way of thinking.

studies and MRI's have occurred that show the biological differences between genders. The same is also true, to a certain extent, between gay/straight men.