Discussing Atheism and atheistic beliefs

**Times Roman** · 11-30-2014, 03:42 PM

Originally Posted by jolter604

| Creation Education Center

Originally Posted by jolter604

its in the dirt.

still waiting for some kind of point. instead of giving me a link, just tell me what's on your mind. We are discussing here on this website, not some other website.

ok?

**jolter604** · 11-30-2014, 03:55 PM

I think if there is a God and he created us we would have been created without the ability to define or fully understand it.Not being able to write the explanation on a chalk board does not mean it is not true.Not being to explain something makes it hard to comprehend witch usually makes people think it is not true.Just like people say there is no other life out there,like we are the only mixture of minerals and energy that some how became a living organism.There are so many stories that never made it to the bible that are even more crazy than the ones in the bible.I am a Christian and I believe in God.I would never tell someone that evolution is wrong or write I just go by my instincts.I have my own life experiences that brought me to what i believe,to each his own.

**Times Roman** · 11-30-2014, 04:03 PM

Originally Posted by jolter604

I think if there is a God and he created us we would have been created without the ability to define or fully understand it.Not being able to write the explanation on a chalk board does not mean it is not true.Not being to explain something makes it hard to comprehend witch usually makes people think it is not true.Just like people say there is no other life out there,like we are the only mixture of minerals and energy that some how became a living organism.There are so many stories that never made it to the bible that are even more crazy than the ones in the bible.I am a Christian and I believe in God.I would never tell someone that evolution is wrong or write I just go by my instincts.I have my own life experiences that brought me to what i believe,to each his own.

so you are saying god made us dumb so that we cannot challenge him? why would he do such a thing? do you have any proof that there is something intrinsically wrong with our brain that prevents us from understanding complex ideas? or the scientific principle is flawed some how? or the accumulation of knowledge over time is some how constrained?

that statement is definitely a "glass is half empty" comment, and it also means you do not have much "faith" in mankind.

See, I believe differently. Our grasp and understanding of the universe around us has been "exploding" over the last generation. The next big event will be the singularity, and from then, all bets are off.

Maybe this is why so many people of faith do not grow intellectually. They accept we are too dumb to understand things around us and when bad things happen, it's god's will.

Please....

**jolter604** · 11-30-2014, 04:19 PM

He did not make us dumb,he gave us all the knowledge needed for his plan.I watch science channel and history channel because it is interesting.Do not think I have no faith in mankind,I plenty of faith in man kind that is why i do steroids ,lol.So if a little kid gets shot by a cop and a bunch of little thugs go around and steal shoes and riot is that part of evolution too.Or do you think they are just wired wrong?I think God is much more than a equation,that is why we can not figure it out.Not that we are stuipid or something bro,maybe we are trying to figure it out the wrong way.

**Times Roman** · 11-30-2014, 04:26 PM

HIS plan?

....and what plan might that be?

he only gave us all the knowledge for his plan?

see, everything I've heard/read about religion is that we have a choice. Not "all the knowledge needed for his plan". Your statement implies there is other knowledge available but since not needed for his plan, we don't have that knowledge. and how does excluding certain knowledge from us come to terms with the other thought "we have a choice"? because if he had given us all the knowledge, then maybe we don't "choose" his plan, and then what kind of free will would that be?

**Times Roman** · 11-30-2014, 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by jolter604

He did not make us dumb,he gave us all the knowledge needed for his plan.I watch science channel and history channel because it is interesting.Do not think I have no faith in mankind,I plenty of faith in man kind that is why i do steroids ,lol.So if a little kid gets shot by a cop and a bunch of little thugs go around and steal shoes and riot is that part of evolution too.Or do you think they are just wired wrong?I think God is much more than a equation,that is why we can not figure it out.Not that we are stuipid or something bro,maybe we are trying to figure it out the wrong way.

do you know what an equation is? what it represents? and why we use equations in the first place?

the nature of scientific inquiry is much more than equations. it is a process of learning and understanding. it is the backbone of all our recent modern advances. the process is not wrong. it is replicable and duplicable by others, meaning it is verifiable, regardless who the experimenter is or where located or when conducted. if this process were the "wrong way" then all these advances we have, even this bulletin board, would not exist. no, that statement of yours isn't well thought out.

**jolter604** · 11-30-2014, 04:42 PM

I also believe if you truly have a good heart and live in some hut in africa and never heard of God but you help other so are going to make it.I also believe in all religions I am not saying mine is the only one.Each minority has been given there own compatible beliefs.Its is all in your heart.If you nock some guys teeth out and he chokes to death on his teeth do you feel bad?Or r u like hell yeah I can kill.If you went to his funeral and seen his mom on her knees crying you should feel some compassion.We all have a inner voice that tells us what is wrong or write,we do not need the bible to tell us just like reminder.Its not all about knowledge.When I look at my kids and i know life is more than just eating,fawking,and sleeping.There is more knowledge because the universe is never ending.Maybe we need to invent a brain steroid .....

**Times Roman** · 11-30-2014, 04:47 PM

Originally Posted by jolter604

I also believe if you truly have a good heart and live in some hut in africa and never heard of God but you help other so are going to make it.I also believe in all religions I am not saying mine is the only one.Each minority has been given there own compatible beliefs.Its is all in your heart.If you nock some guys teeth out and he chokes to death on his teeth do you feel bad?Or r u like hell yeah I can kill.If you went to his funeral and seen his mom on her knees crying you should feel some compassion.We all have a inner voice that tells us what is wrong or write,we do not need the bible to tell us just like reminder.Its not all about knowledge.When I look at my kids and i know life is more than just eating,fawking,and sleeping.There is more knowledge because the universe is never ending.Maybe we need to invent a brain steroid.....

ok, i'll go easy on you, since you are saying the right things. and i'll let the reference to minorities having different beliefs go too.

at least you are saying, in your own way, that other religions besides yours may be valid too. not so sure about all the "teeth knocking" thing, but I'm sure of your sincerity.

and brain steroids are called nootropics, even though their effectiveness is debatable.

**Hazard** · 11-30-2014, 05:38 PM

Originally Posted by jolter604

I also believe if you truly have a good heart and live in some hut in africa and never heard of God but you help other so are going to make it.I also believe in all religions I am not saying mine is the only one.Each minority has been given there own compatible beliefs.Its is all in your heart.If you nock some guys teeth out and he chokes to death on his teeth do you feel bad?Or r u like hell yeah I can kill.If you went to his funeral and seen his mom on her knees crying you should feel some compassion.We all have a inner voice that tells us what is wrong or write,we do not need the bible to tell us just like reminder.Its not all about knowledge.When I look at my kids and i know life is more than just eating,fawking,and sleeping.There is more knowledge because the universe is never ending.Maybe we need to invent a brain steroid.....

Having a good heart and being a good person have nothing to do with religion or god. I help people whenever I can. I have compassion for others and I try to do the best I can every single day. This doesn't mean I don't have a few moments of anger but I live my life to its fullest while trying to be a better person.

I don't need a bible or a god to tell me what's right and wrong. I just do things because it feels right. I don't want to be an asshole.

**Times Roman** · 11-30-2014, 10:46 PM

a quick aside for some that try to fit in culturally.

my neighbor is I believe Indian, possibly from Pakistan maybe. Either way, they have groups of others with a similar persuasion come over, and very quiet, so we're cool. His son's inside car light was on one night when I was putting the trash cans by the street. So I knock on the door, around 9 or so. They were a little tentative when answering, but I just mentioned that their light is on and it will drain the battery over night unless they turn it off. Still a little tentative, the son, probably in his thirties, comes outside and turns off the light.

Tonight, there was a knock at the door. I go to answer it, and there's my neighbor, with a gift. Very quietly he just said Happy Thanksgiving and gave me a bag. So I shook his hand and thanked him, asking his name, then offering mine. He quietly leaves and inside the bag I see a rather "expensive" candy apple and a candy turkey.

This is the point of my thread. Tolerance. Even though some can be very different, we can still get a long. No one has to be right or wrong with what they believe or how they live. I believe everyone has a basic right to live as they please, so long as they don't bother others.

**Rwy** · 11-30-2014, 11:44 PM

I am going to share something.

I do not believe in god. I started questioning religion at a young age. Which made me sad because the thought of Heaven is such a wonderful thing. I believe you get one life and this is it. So you really need to make the most of it. Its so cliche but people waste time now believing that something better is coming and their shorting this life now.

When I was younger I was envious of people with faith and now I wonder how they can be so naive. However I am not here to figure out their life's journey just mine. It took me time to wrap my head around the belief that the universe came from nothing.

I am getting married in two weeks. My fiancees's parents are super religious and would disown their daughter if she didnt get married in a church with a full mass. I agreed to get married in a church out of respect for them but they do not know how I truly feel. I have to admit over the past couple of weeks I have become bothered that I agreed to this.

Our priest is 100% gay and there is nothing wrong with him if he is gay. He is from Colombia and probably going the priest route to get citizen ship. My "sacrament" of marriage is being done by a gay priest. I cant help but laugh yet I am feeling a little bitter. Not towards my fiancee but towards my fiancees parents. I love my girl and I am doing this for her but its really been hard putting on the act as we come down to crunch time.

Part of me feels like I am doing the right thing but the other part of me feels like such a fraud.

**lovbyts** · 12-01-2014, 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Rwy

I am going to share something.

I do not believe in god. I started questioning religion at a young age. Which made me sad because the thought of Heaven is such a wonderful thing. I believe you get one life and this is it. So you really need to make the most of it. Its so cliche but people waste time now believing that something better is coming and their shorting this life now.

When I was younger I was envious of people with faith and now I wonder how they can be so naive. However I am not here to figure out their life's journey just mine. It took me time to wrap my head around the belief that the universe came from nothing.

I am getting married in two weeks. My fiancees's parents are super religious and would disown their daughter if she didnt get married in a church with a full mass. I agreed to get married in a church out of respect for them but they do not know how I truly feel. I have to admit over the past couple of weeks I have become bothered that I agreed to this.

Our priest is 100% gay and there is nothing wrong with him if he is gay. He is from Colombia and probably going the priest route to get citizen ship. My "sacrament" of marriage is being done by a gay priest. I cant help but laugh yet I am feeling a little bitter. Not towards my fiancee but towards my fiancees parents. I love my girl and I am doing this for her but its really been hard putting on the act as we come down to crunch time.

Part of me feels like I am doing the right thing but the other part of me feels like such a fraud.

Just think of it the same as the wedding ring. It's only a symbol or tradition. Dont put to much religious thought into it.

**Times Roman** · 12-01-2014, 09:06 AM

Originally Posted by Rwy

I am going to share something.

I do not believe in god. I started questioning religion at a young age. Which made me sad because the thought of Heaven is such a wonderful thing. I believe you get one life and this is it. So you really need to make the most of it. Its so cliche but people waste time now believing that something better is coming and their shorting this life now.

When I was younger I was envious of people with faith and now I wonder how they can be so naive. However I am not here to figure out their life's journey just mine. It took me time to wrap my head around the belief that the universe came from nothing.

I am getting married in two weeks. My fiancees's parents are super religious and would disown their daughter if she didnt get married in a church with a full mass. I agreed to get married in a church out of respect for them but they do not know how I truly feel. I have to admit over the past couple of weeks I have become bothered that I agreed to this.

Our priest is 100% gay and there is nothing wrong with him if he is gay. He is from Colombia and probably going the priest route to get citizen ship. My "sacrament" of marriage is being done by a gay priest. I cant help but laugh yet I am feeling a little bitter. Not towards my fiancee but towards my fiancees parents. I love my girl and I am doing this for her but its really been hard putting on the act as we come down to crunch time.

Part of me feels like I am doing the right thing but the other part of me feels like such a fraud.

Two points:

1) A purpose of religion: To take the minds of the miserable off of their current misery with a promise of better days. This was a great control device used through out the ages by those fortunate few that controlled, via religion, the masses. It allowed those that rule to do so in such a way so as to minimize revolts and insurgency. And religion, in this context, allowed greater control over the masses as opposed to without the tool called religion.

2) I got married at a church too. So what? if it makes your fiancé's family and her comfortable, then you are the better man for it. There is more to religion than the belief system. There is also the ceremony, which can be a beautiful thing. And there is also tradition. Many take comfort in the tradition of wedding, as apparently your future in-laws seem to find. I see absolutely nothing contradictory in your getting married in a church.

**lovbyts** · 12-01-2014, 09:46 AM

There are also people who NEED religion otherwise they would run a muck more than they do already.

**Metalject** · 12-01-2014, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

Start a thread on this and we will debate it. I've never heard of an atheist committing mass murder in the name of "there isn't a god". I've never heard of an atheist movement like the Christian crusaides responsible for killing.

You are confusing atheists murdering in the name of "there isn't a god" with an atheist murdering in general. Different.

And without reading your article, since I'm drinking wine and don't want to go over the intellectual cliff with you right now, if you are referring to Hitler, he believed in the metaphyhsical world. He was a huge occultist. A true atheist only believes in those senses you can quantify, and nothing in the spiritual realm. Because of this, Hitler does not qualify as a true atheist, regardless what came out of his mouth.

Start the thread, and we can debate.

Could be an interesting thread. I'll try to muster one up.

Originally Posted by Hazard

Having a good heart and being a good person have nothing to do with religion or god. I help people whenever I can. I have compassion for others and I try to do the best I can every single day. This doesn't mean I don't have a few moments of anger but I live my life to its fullest while trying to be a better person.

I don't need a bible or a god to tell me what's right and wrong. I just do things because it feels right. I don't want to be an asshole.

How do you measure what is right? How do you decide? I'm not trying to be an ass here, not at all. But if you're going by what feels good, what if my feelings tell me something different? I know the obvious answer would be if the actions aren't hurting anyone else then they're OK but if they did hurt someone why would it matter? What's the basis of right and wrong?

Is it all based on what a particular society decides is right and wrong? Is right and wrong then defined by what the majority perceive it to be? What if right and wrong are not agreed upon by a majority but the rules of right and wrong are thrust on the whole of society by only one or a few individuals? In either case, by majority or a few, what determines right and wrong?

**Metalject** · 12-01-2014, 12:44 PM

Originally Posted by Rwy

I am going to share something.

I do not believe in god. I started questioning religion at a young age. Which made me sad because the thought of Heaven is such a wonderful thing. I believe you get one life and this is it. So you really need to make the most of it. Its so cliche but people waste time now believing that something better is coming and their shorting this life now.

When I was younger I was envious of people with faith and now I wonder how they can be so naive. However I am not here to figure out their life's journey just mine. It took me time to wrap my head around the belief that the universe came from nothing.

I am getting married in two weeks. My fiancees's parents are super religious and would disown their daughter if she didnt get married in a church with a full mass. I agreed to get married in a church out of respect for them but they do not know how I truly feel. I have to admit over the past couple of weeks I have become bothered that I agreed to this.

Our priest is 100% gay and there is nothing wrong with him if he is gay. He is from Colombia and probably going the priest route to get citizen ship. My "sacrament" of marriage is being done by a gay priest. I cant help but laugh yet I am feeling a little bitter. Not towards my fiancee but towards my fiancees parents. I love my girl and I am doing this for her but its really been hard putting on the act as we come down to crunch time.

Part of me feels like I am doing the right thing but the other part of me feels like such a fraud.

This reminds me of a funny story. My father is a homebuilder and once had a customer who was pretty adamant and vocal about his atheistic beliefs. They had never talked about anything other than the work at hand but as the customer learned more about my father he became distressed. What troubled him was my father being a christian and he wasn't sure if this was someone he wanted building his home. Again, my father had never said anything about this topic to him, never once brought it up. The customer had simply learned more about my dad, found out where he went to church, which is an odd thing to look into IMO. Anyway, the customer confronted my father about what was bothering him and I thought my dad's response was pretty good, he simply said "I'm not going to force you to go to church with me. Do you want a house or not?"

I think people worry far too much about the beliefs of others being thrust upon them. People tend to act as if their beliefs are so sacred, anything that contradicts them is a travesty. This goes for religious and non-religious people. As for your situation here, regardless of how religious your girl is or not, it's important to her to do it this way. You are going through it this way because it's important to her - that's not putting on an act, that's simply going through something with someone because you love them and what's important to them is important to you. This is a much better path to follow than the standard yet increasingly common attitude of "yeah I'll do this or that but what do I get out of it?"

**Hazard** · 12-01-2014, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Metalject

How do you measure what is right? How do you decide? I'm not trying to be an ass here, not at all. But if you're going by what feels good, what if my feelings tell me something different? I know the obvious answer would be if the actions aren't hurting anyone else then they're OK but if they did hurt someone why would it matter? What's the basis of right and wrong?

Is it all based on what a particular society decides is right and wrong? Is right and wrong then defined by what the majority perceive it to be? What if right and wrong are not agreed upon by a majority but the rules of right and wrong are thrust on the whole of society by only one or a few individuals? In either case, by majority or a few, what determines right and wrong?

I'm talking about holding doors and helping old people carry groceries. I work in bad neighborhoods so if someone can use my help I lend it.

There is no set "right or wrong" criteria. I couldn't decide that..... I just try to be a decent human being. This world needs a little more good in it.

**Metalject** · 12-01-2014, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

I'm talking about holding doors and helping old people carry groceries. I work in bad neighborhoods so if someone can use my help I lend it.

There is no set "right or wrong" criteria. I couldn't decide that..... I just try to be a decent human being. This world needs a little more good in it.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you just said, in fact, I agree with all of it. I'm simply saying there has to be something that determines what's right or wrong, good or evil beyond what we determine ourselves. Because if it is merely self-determined, it only takes a few "selfs" out there to decide some horrible things are in fact right. We've seen that play out countless times throughout history.

**lovbyts** · 12-01-2014, 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Hazard

I'm talking about holding doors and helping old people carry groceries. I work in bad neighborhoods so if someone can use my help I lend it.

There is no set "right or wrong" criteria. I couldn't decide that..... I just try to be a decent human being. This world needs a little more good in it.

When there is talk about holding doors, helping people and just being polite it always reminds me of when I was in my late teens (1980s) and my friends and myself had LONG hair and dressed like rockers Yes we actually had a garage band. When we went to the mall or xyz we always held department doors open for people behind us, didnt act rude or anything but of course everyone always looked/acted surprised. On the flip side there were the preps, guys with short perfect cut and manicured hair, polo shirts trying to look like GQ and they were always barging through people, being rude and letting doors close on little old ladies and such. Quite the contrast to what you would think it would be.

It's all about the individual and of course upbringing. If you think you are better than others or they are below you then you there is a problem IMO.

**Times Roman** · 12-01-2014, 11:27 PM

Originally Posted by Metalject

I'm not disagreeing with anything you just said, in fact, I agree with all of it. I'm simply saying there has to be something that determines what's right or wrong, good or evil beyond what we determine ourselves. Because if it is merely self-determined, it only takes a few "selfs" out there to decide some horrible things are in fact right. We've seen that play out countless times throughout history.

let me take a crack at this and let's see how I do.........

doing what is right is a positive constructive process.

Doing what is wrong is a negative destructive process.

Doing the right thing enhances and compliments not only yourself, but others around you. And conversely, wrong things detracts and minimizes from your environment.

Evil is taking from others what does not belong to you.

Good is freely giving to others what does belong to you.

So when you hold a door open for others, you are giving of yourself. What you are giving is courtesy and respect. You are also acknowledging them as someone worthy of your respect. In psychology, this is referred to as "stroking". We all need to be stroked, to have others acknowledge us, else we wither and die. It is known that unless we are stroked sufficiently as children, we develop behavioral conditions such as autism.

So, to wrap it up.

Taking what doesn't belong to you is wrong/evil. Most of the sins revolve around this principle. Murder is the taking of a life. Adultery is the taking of another's spouse.

Make sense?

**lovbyts** · 12-01-2014, 11:56 PM

Originally Posted by Times Roman

let me take a crack at this and let's see how I do.........

doing what is right is a positive constructive process.

Doing what is wrong is a negative destructive process.

Doing the right thing enhances and compliments not only yourself, but others around you. And conversely, wrong things detracts and minimizes from your environment.

Evil is taking from others what does not belong to you.

Good is freely giving to others what does belong to you.

So when you hold a door open for others, you are giving of yourself. What you are giving is courtesy and respect. You are also acknowledging them as someone worthy of your respect. In psychology, this is referred to as "stroking". We all need to be stroked, to have others acknowledge us, else we wither and die. It is known that unless we are stroked sufficiently as children, we develop behavioral conditions such as autism.

So, to wrap it up.

Taking what doesn't belong to you is wrong/evil. Most of the sins revolve around this principle. Murder is the taking of a life. Adultery is the taking of another's spouse.

Make sense?

Unless you are Redz.