Discussing Atheism and atheistic beliefs

[thisAngelBites]

there is no way of knowing the probability of this theoretical discussion of a deity.

Here, I agree with you, which is why I did not attempt to quantify the unquantifiable.

I think the problem is that when you discussed this, you mixed it with another idea, the pascal's wager idea, which fails miserably, as I have shown. But yes, in short, the supernatural vs lack of supernatural, since there is no evidence, but still could exist, is just a chance, and best described as 50/50 since we can't say anything meaningful about it.

[thisAngelBites]

Now that video questions a lot

Thanks for posting will be watching more of this guy's videos.

Marcus, Sam Harris is brilliant at showing how you can be raised with ideas and find them to be a totally ordinary part of life, but when subjected to just the regular amount of scrutiny we apply to everyday events, they are exposed as totally mental.

[thisAngelBites]

I agree that the "mysterious ways" comment or those like it are irritating answers. I would prefer a simple "I don't know" to any of those.

I would prefer a simple "yeah, that is incoherent."

[marcus300]

Marcus, Sam Harris is brilliant at showing how you can be raised with ideas and find them to be a totally ordinary part of life, but when subjected to just the regular amount of scrutiny we apply to everyday events, they are exposed as totally mental.

Very true, ive been reading and watching some of his stuff. He kind of shows you the stone age mentality some of the population have.

[Times Roman]

Here, I agree with you, which is why I did not attempt to quantify the unquantifiable.

I think the problem is that when you discussed this, you mixed it with another idea, the pascal's wager idea, which fails miserably, as I have shown. But yes, in short, the supernatural vs lack of supernatural, since there is no evidence, but still could exist, is just a chance, and best described as 50/50 since we can't say anything meaningful about it.

I sometimes pose questions not to get answers, but just get a round of lively debate going. I'm a big campfire philosopher, especially if there is a big jug of wine going around. Damn.... I miss those days!

there was this one time we had a lively debate going around the campfire at the beach one night. I was looking up at the stars, and saw one moving at a pretty good clip considering the altitude. So I pointed it out to my buddy and proceeded to explain to him that it was actually a satellite a hundred miles up, probably the size of a VW bug...............

[Hazard]

Irony.....


This is an image I took while working in the hood today.....

[Deal Me In]

Something else that I struggle with as an atheist is my disdain for organized religion. I think it's the greatest con ever pulled. If there is such thing as the devil, inventing organized religion is just the sort of thing he would do. There will never be a source of greater conflict than religion on this planet.

I think if more people thought as TR does, in a possible being we can't articulate or understand, instead of a particular god, then I think there would be less strife in the world. You would also see much less anger from atheists.

While I find the concept of a supreme being very unlikely, monotheism is just plain hubris. And silly.

[Times Roman]

I really don't care what anyone believes, so long as they keep it to themselves and with others in a civilized manner. I silently laugh to myself when I see people get all worked up when they try to convince me their personal belief is so much more than a personal belief.... "it's a universal truth!"

It's sad when their mind is so closed that all they can parrot is what preacher man said. And to quote as gospel a human construct, the product from the Niceum Council, this thing we call the bible?

But, there are many that lack the ability, the cognitive horsepower, to think critically. And so maybe they do need preacher man to think for them. Unfortunately, this also means that when preacher man tells them to do something, they do it. Even if it is of a violent nature and hurts others.

[Metalject]

I really don't care what anyone believes, so long as they keep it to themselves and with others in a civilized manner. I silently laugh to myself when I see people get all worked up when they try to convince me their personal belief is so much more than a personal belief.... "it's a universal truth!"

It's sad when their mind is so closed that all they can parrot is what preacher man said. And to quote as gospel a human construct, the product from the Niceum Council, this thing we call the bible?

But, there are many that lack the ability, the cognitive horsepower, to think critically. And so maybe they do need preacher man to think for them. Unfortunately, this also means that when preacher man tells them to do something, they do it. Even if it is of a violent nature and hurts others.

I agree that many tend to rely on whatever the "preacher man" (nice label) says and refuse to think for themselves. But many atheist do the same, it's simply on the other end of the spectrum. People have a tendency to believe what they want to believe and parrot anything that supports it, atheist, christians and everyone else included.

But this isn't simply a religious belief situation, it's a human nature situation. Think about all the people who voted for Obama and still support him despite the numerous failures and scandals...think of all the people who will vote in the next election for the republican candidate no matter what he says simply because he's not Obama. You (not you personally) cannot tell me the vast majority of voters who elected Obama did so by any means of critical thinking. And unless we go back to some sort of only vote if you have substantial land holdings system, the next president will also be elected with little to no critical thinking. So if critical thinking is not part of the equation, what does that leave us with? Emotion, and emotion tends to support what one already wants to believe, and in the scheme of this conversation, that would be a belief or disbelief in the existence of God.

I'm not saying the above applies to all, but I do think it applies to most.

[Times Roman]

I agree that many tend to rely on whatever the "preacher man" (nice label) says and refuse to think for themselves. But many atheist do the same, it's simply on the other end of the spectrum. People have a tendency to believe what they want to believe and parrot anything that supports it, atheist, christians and everyone else included.

But this isn't simply a religious belief situation, it's a human nature situation. Think about all the people who voted for Obama and still support him despite the numerous failures and scandals...think of all the people who will vote in the next election for the republican candidate no matter what he says simply because he's not Obama. You (not you personally) cannot tell me the vast majority of voters who elected Obama did so by any means of critical thinking. And unless we go back to some sort of only vote if you have substantial land holdings system, the next president will also be elected with little to no critical thinking. So if critical thinking is not part of the equation, what does that leave us with? Emotion, and emotion tends to support what one already wants to believe, and in the scheme of this conversation, that would be a belief or disbelief in the existence of God.

I'm not saying the above applies to all, but I do think it applies to most.

Two points, and Angel will quickly jump on this I'm sure.....

...Atheists are not told to say/think any kind of way. They are typically NOT born into a atheist family and taken early on to an institution and told what to think, along with many fellow community members. They are not disfigured at birth (circumsized), do not carry around the "Book of Atheism", nor do they hold as sacred universal guidelines on how to worship such as the ten commandments. Most atheists are fairly well educated, have come to their beliefs on their own as opposed to being brain washed from birth, and do not start Holy Wars in the name of their beliefs. I have never heard any one yell as a battle cry "Death to all believers". So the parroting comment is not a fair representation of that group. So, for the group as a whole, (since most religious people are of their faith as a function of being born/raised in a certain geographic area aka "birth faith"), I feel that Atheists have put significantly more thought in their position than true believers. Yes, there is an emotional component to their belief, yet there is also this rational side they have developed that most true believers lack.

Now, the REAL touchy comment, and I hope the members here can be mature enough, and patient enough to think this through.

Take a look at OJ Simpson.

The schism this caused between the white/black communities is very similar to the schism between the true/non believers.

To a high degree, many blacks refused to believe that OJ killed Nicole. In fact, due to some very fancy lawyering on his side, and some very clumsy lawyering on the other side, the prosecutors failed to convict.

Emotions were running high, and many had faith it was yet another effort to convict an innocent black man, despite all the evidence.

As OJ nears the end of his life, finally understanding he probably won't get out, I believe he has finally admitted that yes, he killed her. And there are still those that refuse to believe, even with this "confession".

My point is this. An emotional belief is a strong thing, and not subject to rational persuasions to the contrary.

There are many that will argue it is the end of days, even when they can clearly see the sun rising on yet another day.

And just like Poo Bear, many have stuffing for brains.

Yes, it is human nature, unfortunately.

[thisAngelBites]

Roman,

I don't mind at all if you press me on any of this, for the sake of conversation (which there has been a lack of lately, so I see your point) or otherwise, so have at me if you like, and I think I will be able to defend my views. And if I can't, well, then, I am sure to learn something.

To be honest, I think we lose something in the marketplace of ideas when we choose political correctness, where every idea has to be respected, no matter how inimical to good reason it is. Pretty soon mathematics problems won't have definitive answers, but interpretations. And people are SO happy to lambaste people for their political views, so I say why exempt religious views from a similar scrutiny? I think if you don't want your stuff subject to consideration, you don't put it out on a thread like this.

[Deal Me In]

Two points, and Angel will quickly jump on this I'm sure.....

...Atheists are not told to say/think any kind of way. They are typically NOT born into a atheist family and taken early on to an institution and told what to think, along with many fellow community members. They are not disfigured at birth (circumsized), do not carry around the "Book of Atheism", nor do they hold as sacred universal guidelines on how to worship such as the ten commandments. Most atheists are fairly well educated, have come to their beliefs on their own as opposed to being brain washed from birth, and do not start Holy Wars in the name of their beliefs. I have never heard any one yell as a battle cry "Death to all believers". So the parroting comment is not a fair representation of that group. So, for the group as a whole, (since most religious people are of their faith as a function of being born/raised in a certain geographic area aka "birth faith"), I feel that Atheists have put significantly more thought in their position than true believers. Yes, there is an emotional component to their belief, yet there is also this rational side they have developed that most true believers lack.

Now, the REAL touchy comment, and I hope the members here can be mature enough, and patient enough to think this through.

Take a look at OJ Simpson.

The schism this caused between the white/black communities is very similar to the schism between the true/non believers.

To a high degree, many blacks refused to believe that OJ killed Nicole. In fact, due to some very fancy lawyering on his side, and some very clumsy lawyering on the other side, the prosecutors failed to convict.

Emotions were running high, and many had faith it was yet another effort to convict an innocent black man, despite all the evidence.

As OJ nears the end of his life, finally understanding he probably won't get out, I believe he has finally admitted that yes, he killed her. And there are still those that refuse to believe, even with this "confession".

My point is this. An emotional belief is a strong thing, and not subject to rational persuasions to the contrary.

There are many that will argue it is the end of days, even when they can clearly see the sun rising on yet another day.

And just like Poo Bear, many have stuffing for brains.

Yes, it is human nature, unfortunately.

That describes my conversion to atheism almost perfectly. I was raised roman catholic and when I got into my late teens I really started to think about it. I had always had questions but had nowhere to really express them. I went looking for other religions and even landed on Buddhism for several years. It was a real struggle. You want to believe in something. But I could never the get the answers I was looking for and finally just accepted that I'm an atheists.

I view the OJ thing differently. I know many people looked at as a race issue but to me it was always about class. OJ is free because he was rich. To me, it wasn't white vs black. But I understood that I wouldn't be treated the same way.

If you are looking for a case to be made on race the current situation in Ferguson, MO would be a more apt analogy, IMHO.

[Deal Me In]

I agree that many tend to rely on whatever the "preacher man" (nice label) says and refuse to think for themselves. But many atheist do the same, it's simply on the other end of the spectrum. People have a tendency to believe what they want to believe and parrot anything that supports it, atheist, christians and everyone else included.

But this isn't simply a religious belief situation, it's a human nature situation. Think about all the people who voted for Obama and still support him despite the numerous failures and scandals...think of all the people who will vote in the next election for the republican candidate no matter what he says simply because he's not Obama. You (not you personally) cannot tell me the vast majority of voters who elected Obama did so by any means of critical thinking. And unless we go back to some sort of only vote if you have substantial land holdings system, the next president will also be elected with little to no critical thinking. So if critical thinking is not part of the equation, what does that leave us with? Emotion, and emotion tends to support what one already wants to believe, and in the scheme of this conversation, that would be a belief or disbelief in the existence of God.

I'm not saying the above applies to all, but I do think it applies to most.

I disagree with this analogy of our political system. I don't believe we lack critical thinking. I believe we lack options. We only get two choices. I voted for Obama, twice. I didn't vote for him because I thought he would be the greatest president ever. I voted for him because I thought he would be a better president than John McCain and caribou Barbie.

Sadly, many times our election process is simply, I think that guy/girl will not be as bad as the other guy/girl.

[Times Roman]

I disagree with this analogy of our political system. I don't believe we lack critical thinking. I believe we lack options. We only get two choices. I voted for Obama, twice. I didn't vote for him because I thought he would be the greatest president ever. I voted for him because I thought he would be a better president than John McCain and caribou Barbie.

Sadly, many times our election process is simply, I think that guy/girl will not be as bad as the other guy/girl.

I voted FOR Perot instead of Bush and Clinton......

[Times Roman]

I'm not pressing you Angel..........

actually trying to be neutral, but maybe favorably biased in your direction a bit

Roman,

I don't mind at all if you press me on any of this, for the sake of conversation (which there has been a lack of lately, so I see your point) or otherwise, so have at me if you like, and I think I will be able to defend my views. And if I can't, well, then, I am sure to learn something.

To be honest, I think we lose something in the marketplace of ideas when we choose political correctness, where every idea has to be respected, no matter how inimical to good reason it is. Pretty soon mathematics problems won't have definitive answers, but interpretations. And people are SO happy to lambaste people for their political views, so I say why exempt religious views from a similar scrutiny? I think if you don't want your stuff subject to consideration, you don't put it out on a thread like this.

Being politically correct has it's place twenty years ago. But like any good thing, is easily over done.

For instance....

....remember "seeing eye dogs"?

It was a big deal to allow those dogs in resturants and other areas not normally available to animals.

............now all you have to do is slap a sign on a mutt saying "service dog" and that mangy beast is allowed in anywhere. I've seen many apparently perfectly normal people carrying their mutts into stores under the guise of being a "service dog". When pressed, these people I'm sure will say "the dog makes me feel good". You don't even have to have a bona fide disability, maybe just feeling a little anxious, or maybe your sperm count is low, and wham! Service dog!

I think we have gotten pretty ridiculous as a society, and this PC issue is a sticking point with me.......

[lovbyts]

I'm not pressing you Angel..........

actually trying to be neutral, but maybe favorably biased in your direction a bit



Being politically correct has it's place twenty years ago. But like any good thing, is easily over done.

For instance....

....remember "seeing eye dogs"?

It was a big deal to allow those dogs in resturants and other areas not normally available to animals.

............now all you have to do is slap a sign on a mutt saying "service dog" and that mangy beast is allowed in anywhere. I've seen many apparently perfectly normal people carrying their mutts into stores under the guise of being a "service dog". When pressed, these people I'm sure will say "the dog makes me feel good". You don't even have to have a bona fide disability, maybe just feeling a little anxious, or maybe your sperm count is low, and wham! Service dog!

I think we have gotten pretty ridiculous as a society, and this PC issue is a sticking point with me.......

Ah-men. You just hit one of my pet peeves.

[Times Roman]

i think the wisest of men are those that readily admit they do not know......




............what other position can one take?


it is the folly of men into tricking themselves into thinking for certainty, uncertain things.

[Metalject]

Maybe a slight detour from the main topic but still in the same realm of the main topic...

Some one has to be right. Of all the religious beliefs out there, including the belief of non-belief, one of these has to be right. Or perhaps a better way to put it would be there has to be a right answer. Perhaps the full right answer hasn't been fully realized, that's possible, but there still has to be a full right answer. With that in mind, how many will be disappointed, disheartened or devastated when their belief isn't realized? And if the belief of non-belief is the right answer, again how disappointing as that, IMO, really takes away from the full purpose of life. Granted, the belief in non-belief can never be fully realized if it happens to be the one true right answer, but that's not really what I'm arguing or getting at. Anyway, I'm not sure if anyone else ever thinks about that or even entertains it but I'd imagine they do.

[Deal Me In]

Maybe a slight detour from the main topic but still in the same realm of the main topic...

Some one has to be right. Of all the religious beliefs out there, including the belief of non-belief, one of these has to be right. Or perhaps a better way to put it would be there has to be a right answer. Perhaps the full right answer hasn't been fully realized, that's possible, but there still has to be a full right answer. With that in mind, how many will be disappointed, disheartened or devastated when their belief isn't realized? And if the belief of non-belief is the right answer, again how disappointing as that, IMO, really takes away from the full purpose of life. Granted, the belief in non-belief can never be fully realized if it happens to be the one true right answer, but that's not really what I'm arguing or getting at. Anyway, I'm not sure if anyone else ever thinks about that or even entertains it but I'd imagine they do.

Why would it be disappointing if there was nothing out there. We just die. That's the end of the story. I don't find that disappointing. Quite the contrary. It motivates me to make the most out of everyday, every moment, every encounter. I only get one shot at this. Shouldn't that be how we live our lives?

[Hazard]

The way I see it..... We're reincarnated. Right now you are alive and see everything from your own point of view. You have no recollection of a past life..... You can't say whether or not you've ever lived before.

What if there are only so many souls..... And once your body dies you take a number and wait in a 4th dimension while another body is produced for you.

What if...... The light you see when you die is actually the light your new body sees as birth is being given?

[Times Roman]

Maybe a slight detour from the main topic but still in the same realm of the main topic...

Some one has to be right. Of all the religious beliefs out there, including the belief of non-belief, one of these has to be right. Or perhaps a better way to put it would be there has to be a right answer. Perhaps the full right answer hasn't been fully realized, that's possible, but there still has to be a full right answer. With that in mind, how many will be disappointed, disheartened or devastated when their belief isn't realized? And if the belief of non-belief is the right answer, again how disappointing as that, IMO, really takes away from the full purpose of life. Granted, the belief in non-belief can never be fully realized if it happens to be the one true right answer, but that's not really what I'm arguing or getting at. Anyway, I'm not sure if anyone else ever thinks about that or even entertains it but I'd imagine they do.

Oh contraire my friend. No one has to be right! We may not even be asking the right question. How do we know any of this is real? Because we say it is? Who are we to say we are real? Is it possible we are but a bit of undigested food creating the illusion of what we see in someone's dream? Or how about we are mere possibilities in a spectrum of possibilities in a multi-verse where there are an infinite number of dimensions and possibilities? Or maybe we are simply program in a virtual reality we know not the existence of. Or we could be mere two dimensional shadows on an Aristotelian wall somewhere....
.........or more on the practical side, how would it be if there were no "Big Bang"? Maybe our understanding of C is wrong, and it has been slowing down over time, and there was no "beginning". Our universe may have been created as an out-pouring of another universe's "black hole".

Just because we conceive of only two probably "beginnings" doesn't mean that there couldn't be more.

What would you say if I told you maybe we live in an oscillating universe and that after a certain point, our universe will slowly contract and implode, only to explode again. And we have no idea how many times we've gone through this process already?

We only perceive three aspects of the universe....
-the incredibly small, which seems to be mostly empty
-the incredibly large, which seems to be mostly empty
-and in between, which we conveniently find ourselves.

What would you say if I told you there were more than three aspects of the universe?
-maybe there is an imaginary aspect to it. Anyone dealing with theoretical math knows all about imaginary numbers. Imaginary numbers are very real when dealing with theoretical math.

maybe our in between aspect, where we coincidently find ourselves, has something to do with vacuum energy? This is the energy present in empty space. We've known about this for awhile now. And maybe the empty space between the very large and the very small, where we find ourselves, maybe we "are" that vacuum energy? Energy where energy shouldn't be. Substance where substance shouldn't be.

We could all be wrong mate. Maybe we aren't smart enough to know how to ask the right question is the problem..........?

[Times Roman]

The way I see it..... We're reincarnated. Right now you are alive and see everything from your own point of view. You have no recollection of a past life..... You can't say whether or not you've ever lived before.

What if there are only so many souls..... And once your body dies you take a number and wait in a 4th dimension while another body is produced for you.

What if...... The light you see when you die is actually the light your new body sees as birth is being given?

it's all turtles mate

our world is a giant turtle, on the back of another giant turtle. in fact, that turtle is on the back of yet another........

...........and to be quite honest, it's turtles all the way down! =)

[Hazard]

it's all turtles mate

our world is a giant turtle, on the back of another giant turtle. in fact, that turtle is on the back of yet another........

...........and to be quite honest, it's turtles all the way down! =)

[Metalject]

The way I see it..... We're reincarnated. Right now you are alive and see everything from your own point of view. You have no recollection of a past life..... You can't say whether or not you've ever lived before.

What if there are only so many souls..... And once your body dies you take a number and wait in a 4th dimension while another body is produced for you.

What if...... The light you see when you die is actually the light your new body sees as birth is being given?

If that happens to be the case, that would imply that souls do exist, and you did mention souls. Wouldn't the soul still have to have a point of origin? Wouldn't it have to have a creator?

[Metalject]

Oh contraire my friend. No one has to be right! We may not even be asking the right question. How do we know any of this is real? Because we say it is? Who are we to say we are real? Is it possible we are but a bit of undigested food creating the illusion of what we see in someone's dream? Or how about we are mere possibilities in a spectrum of possibilities in a multi-verse where there are an infinite number of dimensions and possibilities? Or maybe we are simply program in a virtual reality we know not the existence of. Or we could be mere two dimensional shadows on an Aristotelian wall somewhere....
.........or more on the practical side, how would it be if there were no "Big Bang"? Maybe our understanding of C is wrong, and it has been slowing down over time, and there was no "beginning". Our universe may have been created as an out-pouring of another universe's "black hole".

Just because we conceive of only two probably "beginnings" doesn't mean that there couldn't be more.

What would you say if I told you maybe we live in an oscillating universe and that after a certain point, our universe will slowly contract and implode, only to explode again. And we have no idea how many times we've gone through this process already?

We only perceive three aspects of the universe....
-the incredibly small, which seems to be mostly empty
-the incredibly large, which seems to be mostly empty
-and in between, which we conveniently find ourselves.

What would you say if I told you there were more than three aspects of the universe?
-maybe there is an imaginary aspect to it. Anyone dealing with theoretical math knows all about imaginary numbers. Imaginary numbers are very real when dealing with theoretical math.

maybe our in between aspect, where we coincidently find ourselves, has something to do with vacuum energy? This is the energy present in empty space. We've known about this for awhile now. And maybe the empty space between the very large and the very small, where we find ourselves, maybe we "are" that vacuum energy? Energy where energy shouldn't be. Substance where substance shouldn't be.

We could all be wrong mate. Maybe we aren't smart enough to know how to ask the right question is the problem..........?

When I say someone has to be right, the better way to put it might be there has to be a right answer, which is why I mentioned that perhaps the right answer hasn't yet been fully realized. Not knowing the answer doesn't mean there isn't an answer. Equally important, in my opinion, not knowing the answer doesn't necessarily make the answer a complicated one...it could be a complicated answer but it stands to reason that it's just as likely to be uncomplicated.

And I'm not familiar enough with theoretical math to comment on that part. I'm aware of it but that's about it. I did once here someone make an argument that there's no such think as theoretical or applied math but that there's only math. Somewhat interesting but overall it was over my head. Just the honest answer.

As far as not being smart enough to ask the right questions, that could sometimes be the case. Equally it could sometimes be we don't want to ask the right questions. When I say "we" I'm speaking as people as a whole, just wanted to clarify. But it's not uncommon for a man to stop asking questions when the possible answers do not meet his desired answers. I know this isn't a political argument but I think religious and political type discussions are often very similar if not often one in the same since it is our belief system that shapes how we see and make decisions...that includes a non-belief system. Point being - people will often stop asking questions or ignore situations or outcomes that pertain to a political argument when evidence or at least strong probabilities go against what they desire. The same can be said of religious views, arguments on the existence of life, it's origin, etc. It makes for a difficult discussion with a lot of people, not all but a lot.

Anyway, this thread has been awesome! Would be cool to have more like them. Religious or not, anything that makes you think and share ideas and opinions are enjoyable conversations, at least I think so.

[Metalject]

Why would it be disappointing if there was nothing out there. We just die. That's the end of the story. I don't find that disappointing. Quite the contrary. It motivates me to make the most out of everyday, every moment, every encounter. I only get one shot at this. Shouldn't that be how we live our lives?

It would be disappointing because it devalues life. You live, you die and you rot in the ground...whether you lived a good life, a bad life or somewhere in-between means nothing. Further, there's nothing to measure against. Sure, you can choose to be a good person, or at least what you consider to be a good person, but does it matter? Once you're dead and gone you're forgotten, your life held no meaning. Maybe your life was highly successful in societies terms, you contributed greatly, produced offspring that have flourished and have continued to grow and maybe you're even remembered, but only for a time...as more time passes you're still nothing, no one remembers and in the grand scheme of your once existing life, it doesn't really matter that you existed at all.

And let's say you lived a terrible life, maybe not a bad person but a life of zero note, zero worth. And now you're dead and forgotten. Are you any different than the successful man?

And I'm not making an argument that man needs a god to help him live a good life or to be a decent man, that's not the argument here at all. I know it might seem like that at first glance but it's important to know that's not what I'm getting at, at all. The argument is also not about needing or not needing a god in order to live a good life. The argument is about validation, purpose, reason, etc.

Last note, one could argue that some are always remembered. There are individuals from thousands of years ago that we all know of. But out of the Trillion plus that have existed in the last, let's just say 2000yrs to keep it simple, only a minuscule number are remembered, beyond minuscule and even those that are, well they're still dead and really served no purpose, that is if there is no purpose other than making the most of your life.

[JEVIII]

Some food for thought...

We notice that some things cause other things to be (to begin to be, to continue to be, or both). For example, a man playing the piano is causing the music that we hear. If he stops, so does the music.

Now ask yourself: Are all things caused to exist by other things right now? Suppose they are. That is, suppose there is no Uncaused Being, no God. Then nothing could exist right now. All things need a present cause outside of themselves in order to exist. So right now, all things, including all those things which are causing things to be, need a cause. They can give being only so long as they are given being. Everything that exists, therefore, on this hypothesis, stands in need of being caused to exist.

But caused by what? Beyond everything that is, there can only be nothing. But that is absurd: all of reality dependent—but dependent on nothing! The hypothesis that all being is caused, that there is no Uncaused Being, is absurd. So there must be something uncaused, something on which all things that need an efficient cause of being are dependent.

[thisAngelBites]

It would be disappointing because it devalues life. You live, you die and you rot in the ground...whether you lived a good life, a bad life or somewhere in-between means nothing. Further, there's nothing to measure against. Sure, you can choose to be a good person, or at least what you consider to be a good person, but does it matter? Once you're dead and gone you're forgotten, your life held no meaning.

Your life held no meaning? Why? Because it was finite? Does that mean you think all finite things have no meaning? Your spouse and children aren't infinite, your job isn't infinite does that mean none of that is worth partaking?

I don't really understand the emphasis on being remembered. Once you are dead, what possible gain do you get from people remembering you? Does one enjoy one's death more if people are actively remembering you?

Like Deal Me In, I don't find anything disappointing about life itself - I find it impressive, interesting and fun, and I think the fact that it won't exist forever for me to be a positive, rather than a negative.

[Times Roman]

If that happens to be the case, that would imply that souls do exist, and you did mention souls. Wouldn't the soul still have to have a point of origin? Wouldn't it have to have a creator?

not necessarily. reincarnation could be similar to quantum entanglement. consciousness is a construct; self aware. it could very well be that there is a stream of consciousness that coexists, again, like the collective consciousness of a hive, real, yet not real. And it very well could be that reincarnation is simply remnants of consciousness left over in the stream....

........it's funny about ant hills. fvck with one part of the hive, and the whole hive seems to respond. Now we all know the "hive" really doesn't have a consciousness, right? Or does it?

When I say someone has to be right, the better way to put it might be there has to be a right answer, which is why I mentioned that perhaps the right answer hasn't yet been fully realized. Not knowing the answer doesn't mean there isn't an answer. Equally important, in my opinion, not knowing the answer doesn't necessarily make the answer a complicated one...it could be a complicated answer but it stands to reason that it's just as likely to be uncomplicated.

And I'm not familiar enough with theoretical math to comment on that part. I'm aware of it but that's about it. I did once here someone make an argument that there's no such think as theoretical or applied math but that there's only math. Somewhat interesting but overall it was over my head. Just the honest answer.

As far as not being smart enough to ask the right questions, that could sometimes be the case. Equally it could sometimes be we don't want to ask the right questions. When I say "we" I'm speaking as people as a whole, just wanted to clarify. But it's not uncommon for a man to stop asking questions when the possible answers do not meet his desired answers. I know this isn't a political argument but I think religious and political type discussions are often very similar if not often one in the same since it is our belief system that shapes how we see and make decisions...that includes a non-belief system. Point being - people will often stop asking questions or ignore situations or outcomes that pertain to a political argument when evidence or at least strong probabilities go against what they desire. The same can be said of religious views, arguments on the existence of life, it's origin, etc. It makes for a difficult discussion with a lot of people, not all but a lot.

Anyway, this thread has been awesome! Would be cool to have more like them. Religious or not, anything that makes you think and share ideas and opinions are enjoyable conversations, at least I think so.

So what would you say if the universe is like an 8 track player, one big continuous loop, with no end and no beginning? in this case, there would be no creation and no end. some kind of a self referential loop, or even worse, a metaphysical circular reference? Each moment is preceeded by and caused by an earlier moment/action. And we can trace this all the way through. yet given infinite time, we finally get to a point where we say "wait, this shit looks familiar?"

[Times Roman]

Your life held no meaning? Why? Because it was finite? Does that mean you think all finite things have no meaning? Your spouse and children aren't infinite, your job isn't infinite does that mean none of that is worth partaking?

I don't really understand the emphasis on being remembered. Once you are dead, what possible gain do you get from people remembering you? Does one enjoy one's death more if people are actively remembering you?

Like Deal Me In, I don't find anything disappointing about life itself - I find it impressive, interesting and fun, and I think the fact that it won't exist forever for me to be a positive, rather than a negative.

I have a type of belief, one that I do feel strongly about. It's not much of a leap, but it's the best I can do right now.

See, I feel that where ever we came from, is the direction we are going post death.

Additionally, and this is a little eastern, but I haven't ruled out the possibility that it may be possible to change the nature of our consciousness. It may have started out mortal, but under the right circumstances, and with the right training/mindset, we may be able to maintain some form of consciousness post death.

That's all I got right now.....

[bruary17]

It's funny beacause some atheists have a problem with what other people believe in? When in fact, atheism is a religion itself....it's the belief that there is no God and that all things can be proven through science. Hear about atheists requesting the removal of the cross at ground zero in NYC? It's extremely hypocritical of any atheist to request that based on the their contention that the presence of the cross indicates that people are choosing one religion over another. If they really thought about it, maybe they would understand that the removal of religious materials imposes their religion on everyone else.

[lovbyts]

I have a type of belief, one that I do feel strongly about. It's not much of a leap, but it's the best I can do right now.

See, I feel that where ever we came from, is the direction we are going post death.

Additionally, and this is a little eastern, but I haven't ruled out the possibility that it may be possible to change the nature of our consciousness. It may have started out mortal, but under the right circumstances, and with the right training/mindset, we may be able to maintain some form of consciousness post death.

That's all I got right now.....

In other words you believe in Ascension and want to ascend some day?

[Deal Me In]

It's funny beacause some atheists have a problem with what other people believe in? When in fact, atheism is a religion itself....it's the belief that there is no God and that all things can be proven through science. Hear about atheists requesting the removal of the cross at ground zero in NYC? It's extremely hypocritical of any atheist to request that based on the their contention that the presence of the cross indicates that people are choosing one religion over another. If they really thought about it, maybe they would understand that the removal of religious materials imposes their religion on everyone else.

You don't understand atheists. Atheists work very hard to separate religion and government. I don't care that there is a church on every street corner but if you try to put your religion in my government I will speak up loud.

The argument you are making is made, in this country, by Christians because of their protected class. Remember the "ground zero mosque" that had all the right wing, Christian nut jobs get their panties in a bunch? That is religious persecution. Christians went bat shit crazy because it wasn't "their" religion. Atheists never said a word because it wasn't a government building so it didn't concern us.

Last week a school board was asked to include Muslim holidays on the school calendar. Instead of including them, they removed all religious holidays. This is religious persecution. God forbid we teach our Christian children that other theory's exists.

The two most protected classes in this country are white men and Christians. Christians want to put religion in everything. But only if it's their religion. This is religious persecution.

It's simple. If taxes pay for it, no religion. Period.

And atheism isn't a religion, recent court cases to the contrary.

[Deal Me In]

It would be disappointing because it devalues life. You live, you die and you rot in the ground...whether you lived a good life, a bad life or somewhere in-between means nothing. Further, there's nothing to measure against. Sure, you can choose to be a good person, or at least what you consider to be a good person, but does it matter? Once you're dead and gone you're forgotten, your life held no meaning. Maybe your life was highly successful in societies terms, you contributed greatly, produced offspring that have flourished and have continued to grow and maybe you're even remembered, but only for a time...as more time passes you're still nothing, no one remembers and in the grand scheme of your once existing life, it doesn't really matter that you existed at all.

And let's say you lived a terrible life, maybe not a bad person but a life of zero note, zero worth. And now you're dead and forgotten. Are you any different than the successful man?

And I'm not making an argument that man needs a god to help him live a good life or to be a decent man, that's not the argument here at all. I know it might seem like that at first glance but it's important to know that's not what I'm getting at, at all. The argument is also not about needing or not needing a god in order to live a good life. The argument is about validation, purpose, reason, etc.

Last note, one could argue that some are always remembered. There are individuals from thousands of years ago that we all know of. But out of the Trillion plus that have existed in the last, let's just say 2000yrs to keep it simple, only a minuscule number are remembered, beyond minuscule and even those that are, well they're still dead and really served no purpose, that is if there is no purpose other than making the most of your life.

So your life is only valuable if people remember you? If you are written about in books? This seems a bit narcissistic.

My goal in life is to make the world a better place. I try and do this by influencing people. If someone learns something from me, creative thinking, motivation, morals, whatever, I've done my job. I live on through them. Hopefully they teach something to the next generation. In this way, civilization gets better. The odds are the person I influence won't remember me. So what?

My grandfather taught me to hunt. I will teach my children. And they will teach their children. I don't know who taught my grandfather to hunt but that persons influence lives on in me. I never met the man but I'm affected by him. My children will be affected by him. His name was never written in a history book but he has influenced so many people.

How awesome is that. Some guy I never met and never heard of made it possible for me to learn how to feed myself using only nature. How can you say his life was devalued because no one ever wrote about him?

Make the world a better place while you're here. That's your responsibility. Society either moves forward or backwards based on what you do everyday.

[Times Roman]

It's funny beacause some atheists have a problem with what other people believe in? When in fact, atheism is a religion itself....it's the belief that there is no God and that all things can be proven through science. Hear about atheists requesting the removal of the cross at ground zero in NYC? It's extremely hypocritical of any atheist to request that based on the their contention that the presence of the cross indicates that people are choosing one religion over another. If they really thought about it, maybe they would understand that the removal of religious materials imposes their religion on everyone else.

faulty logic mate. saying atheism is a religion is like saying the null value is a number.

sorry. try again.

In other words you believe in Ascension and want to ascend some day?

I'm looking for a "Stairway to Heaven", mate!

[Metalject]

I swear, people tend to read whatever they want when something doesn't quite fit whatever they think, and I'm sure I've been guilty of doing the same...I try not to but I'm sure I have. That said, I never said the purpose and meaning of life had anything to do with being remembered, I even went out of my way to explain how even being remembered was meaningless. My point with the being remembered comments was even if your life was so significant and you were remembered, even then that's not enough to really matter once you're dead and gone.

As for "leaving the world a better place" contributing to the advancement of society, etc. how or why this matters to the individual in a universe where there is no god doesn't make a lot of sense to me. To start, what you consider a better place, advancement, moral and societal improvements etc. is based on your own opinion and is not based on anything foundational. Sure, you can find those that agree with you but you can find just as many if not more that disagree...why is your "a better world" better than the other man's "a better world"? And fine, you've passed things down to your children, but you're still dead in the ground with no consciousness and it's as if you never lived...sure, your kids live through you, which is kind of a feel good fluffy thing to say IMO, because eventually they'll be dead in the ground with no conscious either.

Obviously as human beings we all want to have purpose or feel like our life holds meaning and importance, that it matters at some level to some degree. And so we create little feel good statements to give ourselves this feeling of purpose and importance, i.e. "to leave the world a better place than I found it", "To contribute to man's advancement" and things like that. But why does that matter when it's only based on your own opinion of what those things are, your own personal feelings and thoughts. Just because you hold personal feelings and thoughts, which are most certainly entitled to have, that does not make them true or meaningful.

I do think all the things mentioned, being a good person, family, trying to live a good life, etc. all of those are important things and I'm not trying to diminish them in a sense to say they don't matter. But, and this is all opinion based, (this entire thread is opinion based) those things are merely small pieces, they do not make up the whole. And of course that leads to what is the full purpose of life then? I see Mr. Roman has made a new thread so for now I'll leave it at that and make my comment there if something comes to mind, which I'm sure it will since I seem to enjoy talking about this.

[Metalject]

faulty logic mate. saying atheism is a religion is like saying the null value is a number.

sorry. try again.



I'm looking for a "Stairway to Heaven", mate!

Calling atheism a religion may not be factually accurate but it is a belief system.
Have you ever heard the old argument that nothing is impossible because nothing is something? Point being, you cannot have nothing if you can define it and by calling something nothing you have defined it, it is a value, a value of nothing but still a value. So in that same thinking, even if you don't believe in god, because you've placed a value on it, the value of non-belief, you therefore hold a belief.

[Mike Dura]

Interesting topic. Noam Chomsky had an interesting response when he was asked if he was an atheist. He said something to the effect of "I'm afraid I don't know what it is I'm supposed to not believe in." In other words, define god. That's always the starting point. God by definition is immaterial. You can't see, touch, or taste god. By definition god is no-thing or nothing. All to do about nada. God is a word or a concept. It has reference to nothing.

In fact, the literal interpretation of the old and new testament is something relatively new (about 100 years old). The authors didn't take the miracles literally. It's meant to be read as metaphor. It's absurd to read it literally. It's mythology.

[thisAngelBites]

Calling atheism a religion may not be factually accurate but it is a belief system.
Have you ever heard the old argument that nothing is impossible because nothing is something? Point being, you cannot have nothing if you can define it and by calling something nothing you have defined it, it is a value, a value of nothing but still a value. So in that same thinking, even if you don't believe in god, because you've placed a value on it, the value of non-belief, you therefore hold a belief.

Firstly, atheists do not believe there is nothing. We think that there is insufficient evidence for the beliefs of other (religious) people. We do not believe in nothingness or anything like that.

Secondly, neither giving something a name, nor defining it causes its existence, or makes it ~nothing. or turns it magically into a belief, all because of a little semantic game.

I have to say, I continue to marvel at the contortion that people will undertake in order to make atheism the same kind of thing as theism.

[thisAngelBites]

I swear, people tend to read whatever they want when something doesn't quite fit whatever they think, and I'm sure I've been guilty of doing the same...I try not to but I'm sure I have. That said, I never said the purpose and meaning of life had anything to do with being remembered, I even went out of my way to explain how even being remembered was meaningless. My point with the being remembered comments was even if your life was so significant and you were remembered, even then that's not enough to really matter once you're dead and gone.

Sorry if I misrepresented your view. You introduced the idea of being remembered and then discussed it at length, and said "Once you're dead and gone you're forgotten, your life held no meaning."

In the context of all the discussion about being remembered, I read that literally as once you are a) dead (and gone) you are b) forgotten, (therefore) your life held no meaning. Meaning that if you were still alive (possibly), or dead and remembered, your life might have some meaning. Now I think I understand that you were not trying to say that, but perhaps you were doing something else like anticipating objections or something??? I don't know. But I hope you can understand the ambiguity, and we can drop the being remembered thing since none of cares about it.