Should you risk a second disabled child?

[Cuz]

Like there isnt already more then enough people in the world. Might as well make jerking off a murder too

I know you dont know anything about this, but children happen when a man and a woman have sex. So instead of blaming the would be parents for irresponsible unsafe sex, just kill the child right?

[s1nc1ty]

I know you dont know anything about this, but children happen when a man and a woman have sex. So instead of blaming the would be parents for irresponsible unsafe sex, just kill the child right?

Speem cells are alive too and the seed of life . Each time you jerk off imagine what its face would have been like if you had put it where its supposed to go

[Test Monsterone]

I’m all for sterilization in many cases. We honestly do have too many people. And it seems like it’s all the wrong people having a ton of kids. People who can’t support their kids have no business having them. Eventually I believe governments will enact some form of population control because life won’t be sustainable.

On a side note, do we always have to cut each other down all the time? Life is fuckin hard enough. Maybe some compassion wouldn’t hurt.

[Cuz]

Speem cells are alive too and the seed of life . Each time you jerk off imagine what its face would have been like if you had put it where its supposed to go

There it is! Let those two brain cells shine!

[Honkey_Kong]

I’m all for sterilization in many cases. We honestly do have too many people. And it seems like it’s all the wrong people having a ton of kids. People who can’t support their kids have no business having them. Eventually I believe governments will enact some form of population control because life won’t be sustainable.

On a side note, do we always have to cut each other down all the time? Life is fuckin hard enough. Maybe some compassion wouldn’t hurt.

We have too many of the wrong people and not enough of the right people. And unfortunately, way too many mediocre people.

[wango]

We have too many of the wrong people and not enough of the right people. And unfortunately, way too many mediocre people.

Agreed. A few of my neighbors and I gather on lawn chairs in our driveways regularly - we say the say the same thing.

Of course, go back 100 years with the sterilization and immigration laws then & it’s likely none of us (neighbors and I) would be here right now. Go figure; ironic really.

[Honkey_Kong]

Agreed. A few of my neighbors and I gather on lawn chairs in our driveways regularly - we say the say the same thing.

Of course, go back 100 years with the sterilization and immigration laws then & it’s likely none of us (neighbors and I) would be here right now. Go figure; ironic really.

I'm sure 100 years ago, people said the same thing. It's a downward spiral.

[wango]

I'm sure 100 years ago, people said the same thing. It's a downward spiral.

It’s just 100 years ago they were taking the steps to solve the “problem”. Can’t do that now, regrettably.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

Some of you here on the forum have children.

If I were to kidnap your child and keep them away from you for a week, and then bring them back to you with a new condition such as non-verbal autism, you would consider me to have harmed your child.

But if a geneticist tells you that each future child of yours has a 50% chance of non-verbal autism, then why would you not get a donor or adopt in order to spare your child such a fate?

[lovbyts]

Some of you here on the forum have children.

If I were to kidnap your child and keep them away from you for a week, and then bring them back to you with a new condition such as non-verbal autism, you would consider me to have harmed your child.

But if a geneticist tells you that each future child of yours has a 50% chance of non-verbal autism, then why would you not get a donor or adopt in order to spare your child such a fate?

Scenario #1 You are a dead person no 2 ways about it.

Scenario #2 Genetic testing has come a long way but they aren't even 50% of the time correct yet.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

Scenario #2 Genetic testing has come a long way but they aren't even 50% of the time correct yet.

But even if we quarter that percentage, bringing it down to 12.5%, that's still a hefty risk of ruining your life plans, ruining your retirement plans, etc.., all while your child doesn't have much of a shot at life.

[almostgone]

But even if we quarter that percentage, bringing it down to 12.5%, that's still a hefty risk of ruining your life plans, ruining your retirement plans, etc.., all while your child doesn't have much of a shot at life.

Seems kind of selfish to prioritize your life plans, your retirement plans over the child possibly not having much of a shot at life.

Just my outlook on it.

[almostgone]

Seems kind of selfish to prioritize your life plans, your retirement plans over the child possibly not having much of a shot at life.

Just my outlook on it.

I guess what I'm saying is those two components shouldn't even factor into the decision, IMO. That's just me.


Back to work .....busy, busy, busy....

[Fluidic Kimbo]

Seems kind of selfish to prioritize your life plans, your retirement plans over the child possibly not having much of a shot at life.

Just my outlook on it.

I guess what I'm saying is those two components shouldn't even factor into the decision, IMO. That's just me.

Back to work .....busy, busy, busy....

I think we need to be a little bit realistic here. Humans, as a species, are very unique on this planet as we are intelligent, intellectual, and know that we're going to die. We also have modern medicine and a knowledge of how genetics work. Since we all know that we're mortal, all we can really hope for is a 'good life' and to grow old gracefully while we're here. (I realise that some people have faith in an after-life but for the timebeing I'm just talking about this life).

When a married couple decide to have children, they do so with a 'life vision' in mind. . . to have a house with young kids running around and making noise, a little puppy golden retriever at some point, going to church/temple together as a family on Sunday, once in a while going on a tour of a toy store. And then as they get a little bit older, going to rodeos. We make choices in life while keeping in mind what kind of life we're going to have.

There is inherent risk in everything we do in life . . . I drove my car from my house to the centre of town today, and there was probably something like a 0.0001% chance that I would die on the way here. Two healthy parents have an approximate 2% chance of having a disabled child, so most people are happy with their 98% probability of a healthy child -- and the kind of life they want to have with the child in it.

But if you have a 50:50 chance of having a non-verbal autistic child who will smear poo around her bedroom and occasionally masturbate on the chair in the kitchen when you have guests over, then I think most parents will think "This isn't what I signed up for".

I'm sorry to use masturbation as an example -- in particular in the context of children -- but again just lastnight I went around to my friend's house whose 7yr old daughter is nonverbal autistic. At one point she changed her posture on the chair and I had an idea of what was next to happen, so I looked over at the fish tank while my friend led his daughter by the hand out of the room. This isn't even a new behaviour, she first did it about 2 or 3 years ago when I was over at his house.

A married couple decides to have a child after they've made the decision that they're okay with the changes it will bring to their life -- even making peace with the restrictions. Having a disabled child brings it to a whole other level though. And if you know that your genes are likely to produce a disabled child then why not just adopt or get a donor.

I've used nonverbal autism as an example all along here but there's other stuff too . . . I went to a life drawing class last weekend and there was a guy there who told me that there was a family on his road with 3 children with muscular dystrophy.

I'm not asking for the government to bring in laws against people with bad genes passing them on -- but in my own case, I'll opt for a sperm donor, I'll get some guy 7 foot tall with an IQ of 160+.

[almostgone]

I think we need to be a little bit realistic here. Humans, as a species, are very unique on this planet as we are intelligent, intellectual, and know that we're going to die. We also have modern medicine and a knowledge of how genetics work. Since we all know that we're mortal, all we can really hope for is a 'good life' and to grow old gracefully while we're here. (I realise that some people have faith in an after-life but for the timebeing I'm just talking about this life).

When a married couple decide to have children, they do so with a 'life vision' in mind. . . to have a house with young kids running around and making noise, a little puppy golden retriever at some point, going to church/temple together as a family on Sunday, once in a while going on a tour of a toy store. And then as they get a little bit older, going to rodeos. We make choices in life while keeping in mind what kind of life we're going to have.

There is inherent risk in everything we do in life . . . I drove my car from my house to the centre of town today, and there was probably something like a 0.0001% chance that I would die on the way here. Two healthy parents have an approximate 2% chance of having a disabled child, so most people are happy with their 98% probability of a healthy child -- and the kind of life they want to have with the child in it.

But if you have a 50:50 chance of having a non-verbal autistic child who will smear poo around her bedroom and occasionally masturbate on the chair in the kitchen when you have guests over, then I think most parents will think "This isn't what I signed up for".

I'm sorry to use masturbation as an example -- in particular in the context of children -- but again just lastnight I went around to my friend's house whose 7yr old daughter is nonverbal autistic. At one point she changed her posture on the chair and I had an idea of what was next to happen, so I looked over at the fish tank while my friend led his daughter by the hand out of the room. This isn't even a new behaviour, she first did it about 2 or 3 years ago when I was over at his house.

A married couple decides to have a child after they've made the decision that they're okay with the changes it will bring to their life -- even making peace with the restrictions. Having a disabled child brings it to a whole other level though. And if you know that your genes are likely to produce a disabled child then why not just adopt or get a donor.

I've used nonverbal autism as an example all along here but there's other stuff too . . . I went to a life drawing class last weekend and there was a guy there who told me that there was a family on his road with 3 children with muscular dystrophy.

I'm not asking for the government to bring in laws against people with bad genes passing them on -- but in my own case, I'll opt for a sperm donor, I'll get some guy 7 foot tall with an IQ of 160+.

Sounds like the parents understand what it means to be a parent.

[wango]

Regrettably, the cost of “mainstreaming” children with disabilities into publiceducation, including those that might have been preventable is exorbitant as well as the extra man-hours demanded of the school staff. An argument could easily be made that those costs & man-hours deprive other children of their best possible educational opportunities as school districts only have x amount of $.

2 parents with congenital deafness are both extraordinarily loving individuals that want a child. The child is deaf, it’s public taxes that pay for the extra costs needed for that child and the $ not additional funding from the parents.

Just an example.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

Sounds like the parents understand what it means to be a parent.

Having unconditional love for a child no matter how they turn out is something different from choosing your own bad genes over the genes of a donor.

Choosing your own bad genes over the genes of a donor, for the sake of being the 'sire', is a very selfish endeavour in my opinion.

Giving your children muscular dystrophy is pretty malicious. I can understand the first one . . . that can happen to anyone . . . but the second and third were pure malice aforethought.

[wango]

FK, thank you for bringing back nightmare like memories of recalling having just one autistic child in your classroom & how much it totally fucks up your school year & the optimal education of the other 30+ students in your class.

[almostgone]

Having unconditional love for a child no matter how they turn out is something different from choosing your own bad genes over the genes of a donor.

Choosing your own bad genes over the genes of a donor, for the sake of being the 'sire', is a very selfish endeavour in my opinion.

Giving your children muscular dystrophy is pretty malicious. I can understand the first one . . . that can happen to anyone . . . but the second and third were pure malice aforethought.

I have my thoughts on the matter as you have your thoughts on the matter. I assure you that whatever conditions you try to apply to the situation won't change my thoughts.


Edit: I will acknowledge that I would have had to study long and hard before I opted to try for child 2 or 3 and probably wouldn't have. However, I'm comfortable with the thoughts I posted.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

I have my thoughts on the matter as you have your thoughts on the matter. I assure you that whatever conditions you try to apply to the situation won't change my thoughts.


Edit: I will acknowledge that I would have had to study long and hard before I opted to try for child 2 or 3 and probably wouldn't have. However, I'm comfortable with the thoughts I posted.

My friend who has the 7yr old nonverbal autistic daughter got a referral letter from his GP (a.k.a family doctor) to go see a geneticist. So my friend and his wife went to see the geneticist, and she told them that there's a 50:50 chance any future child of theirs will be autistic.

Oddly, when my friend suggested to the geneticist that they should refrain from having further natural children for fear of another being autistic, the geneticist was appalled at the sentiment.

Some people immediately start thinking about Hitler whenever you mention restricting the biological reproduction of some people -- in this case even a professional geneticist!

I am steadfast in my own stance on this. Any couple's first disabled child is not their fault. Sometimes the second one isn't their fault either if they're born less than 2 years apart (before the 1st kid's disability became apparent).

But if you have one child, and you know it's disabled, and then you just go on to have a 2nd and a 3rd . . . I see that as a selfish grandiose desire to be a sire. If the bad genes are daddy's, then just get a sperm donor. If the bad genes are mammy's or if mammy's uterine
environment produces deformed or sickly babies, then see about adoption.

Focusing on your own personal role in this world as a biological sire is probably the most selfish thing a reproductive lifeform can do.

I'm gonna get 7 foot tall 160 IQ sperm from a reputable bank. Of course I will write in my prenuptial agreement with my future wife that my name goes on all the kids' birthcerts and that I have all the same rights as if it had been my own sperm.

[GirlyGymRat]

I'm gonna get 7 foot tall 160 IQ sperm from a reputable bank. Of course I will write in my prenuptial agreement with my future wife that my name goes on all the kids' birthcerts and that I have all the same rights as if it had been my own sperm.

why?

don’t let society impose a defined outcome. It sets us up to feel inferior, deprived, unhappy! Or spending our most valuable commodity of time constructing options and conditions to make us feel better.

I couldn’t have children. It wasn’t my plan.
And my life is fantastic!



Remember - misery company!

[Fluidic Kimbo]

don’t let society impose a defined outcome. It sets us up to feel inferior, deprived, unhappy!

I think there's a window of things that are 'not perfect' but still 'acceptable', for example:
* talking with a lisp
* hare lip
* short in height
* needing to wear glasses
* flat feet

I wouldn't go to the bother of getting a vasectomy for this kind of stuff.

But if my kid would have a 50% chance of muscular dystrophy, or a 50% chance of smearing poo around room and masturbating in the kitchen when we have guests over, then I'll opt for a vasectomy.

Or spending our most valuable commodity of time constructing options and conditions to make us feel better.

I couldn’t have children. It wasn’t my plan.
And my life is fantastic!

Remember - misery company!

I still might go become a monk, you never know where life is going. But if I do have kids some day, I'll resist the urge to be a sire and instead give my kids a good chance at health and happiness. Adoption, sperm donors, surrogate mothers . . . the year is 2023.

[GirlyGymRat]

I think there's a window of things that are 'not perfect' but still 'acceptable', for example:
* talking with a lisp
* hare lip
* short in height
* needing to wear glasses
* flat feet

I wouldn't go to the bother of getting a vasectomy for this kind of stuff.

But if my kid would have a 50% chance of muscular dystrophy, or a 50% chance of smearing poo around room and masturbating in the kitchen when we have guests over, then I'll opt for a vasectomy.



I still might go become a monk, you never know where life is going. But if I do have kids some day, I'll resist the urge to be a sire and instead give my kids a good chance at health and happiness. Adoption, sperm donors, surrogate mothers . . . the year is 2023.

Not all of us are meant to have offspring. I wasn’t. And you know you shouldn’t.

My conclusion (not up for debate) is this thread is much to do about your state of uncoupled so monk is a viable option.

Best wishes!

[Fluidic Kimbo]

Not all of us are meant to have offspring.

If you mean "use your own sperm", or "use your own eggs", or "use your own womb", then I agree that some people shouldn't semi-deliberately give their children disabilities.

But if you mean that some people shouldn't play the role of a parent in a child's life, then I don't agree that this should be decided by biology.

I wasn’t. And you know you shouldn’t.

Knowing that I shouldn't use my sperm to create a child has nothing at all to do with whether I should be a foster carer or if I should get married and get a sperm donor.

My conclusion (not up for debate) is this thread is much to do about your state of uncoupled so monk is a viable option.

Nah there's so subliminal message here . . . I have a cousin and a sibling with a disabled child and that's why it's been on my mind not to wind up in the same situation.

I spent a month as a monk before and it was alright, but for the time being I'll continue along this line.

[Honkey_Kong]

If you mean "use your own sperm", or "use your own eggs", or "use your own womb", then I agree that some people shouldn't semi-deliberately give their children disabilities.

But if you mean that some people shouldn't play the role of a parent in a child's life, then I don't agree that this should be decided by biology.



Knowing that I shouldn't use my sperm to create a child has nothing at all to do with whether I should be a foster carer or if I should get married and get a sperm donor.



Nah there's so subliminal message here . . . I have a cousin and a sibling with a disabled child and that's why it's been on my mind not to wind up in the same situation.

I spent a month as a monk before and it was alright, but for the time being I'll continue along this line.

Kimbo, nutcases like you used to spend their lives in asylums. Do you really think you have any business being around children? This is a pointless thread anyways. You're an incel and the government knows how crazy you are. So you're never going to have a kid be it by your seed or by foster care.

[wango]

I spent a month as a monk before and it was alright, but for the time being I'll continue along this line.

I read an interview with this book’s author a few weeks back & was impressed enough to order the book.

I started reading it a few days back & am simply amazed. He actually is a monk (with a prestigious business degree) and one heck of a teacher/writer. Only 40 pages in, because I have to take it ever so slowly to focus on & allow each idea sink into my consciousness.

I already feel the lessons’ impact effecting my approach to life.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

I read an interview with this book’s author a few weeks back & was impressed enough to order the book.

I started reading it a few days back & am simply amazed. He actually is a monk (with a prestigious business degree) and one heck of a teacher/writer. Only 40 pages in, because I have to take it ever so slowly to focus on & allow each idea sink into my consciousness.

I already feel the lessons’ impact effecting my approach to life.

If you want to dip your toes into monkhood without committing to it, then go do a 10-day silent meditation course.

[wango]

If you want to dip your toes into monkhood without committing to it, then go do a 10-day silent meditation course.

I have a home that is serene, allows me a sense of isolation & I’m capable of long bouts of quiet solitude already & enjoy it daily.

However, let me see my mindset after reading the book. I’m sure in California there will be places that feature what you mentioned and already the idea seems desirable. I’ll start my search. A robe; sure; I just won’t shave my head, lol.

Rise above.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

I have a home that is serene, allows me a sense of isolation & I’m capable of long bouts of quiet solitude already & enjoy it daily.

A girl with anorexia told me something similar, she said she hadn't left her house in 3 years, so instead of going to a temple, why not just be quiet at home.

Being among 50 - 100 people who spend 24 hours a day together for a week or longer, walking around silently and eating together silently, is very very very different from just being in solitude in a quiet home.

However, let me see my mindset after reading the book. I’m sure in California there will be places that feature what you mentioned and already the idea seems desirable. I’ll start my search. A robe; sure; I just won’t shave my head, lol.

Rise above.

Northern California: https://manda.dhamma.org/
Southern California: https://vaddhana.dhamma.org/
Norfolk: https://mahavana.dhamma.org/

Alternatively you could fly to England and do it with me.

Watch this documentary about it: https://youtu.be/phHib5VaCeE?si=URenTQ-GhQ5lwfud (This one was hosted in an Alabama prison)

[wango]

A girl with anorexia told me something similar, she said she hadn't left her house in 3 years, so instead of going to a temple, why not just be quiet at home.

Being among 50 - 100 people who spend 24 hours a day together for a week or longer, walking around silently and eating together silently, is very very very different from just being in solitude in a quiet home.



Northern California: https://manda.dhamma.org/
Southern California: https://vaddhana.dhamma.org/
Norfolk: https://mahavana.dhamma.org/

Alternatively you could fly to England and do it with me.

Watch this documentary about it: https://youtu.be/phHib5VaCeE?si=URenTQ-GhQ5lwfud (This one was hosted in an Alabama prison)

You hit the nail on the head about being with a group of strangers, even if you don’t have to communicate with them. It’s just not for me. It’s also why I likely will never take a cruise no matter how high end it is, lol.

I do not have a problem leaving it’s just the home was designed to not want to or need to leave, as mentioned it’s peaceful.

And thank you for the links, I’ll check them out. Oh no, flying to Europe?!? I think the furthest I’ll go now is a 1-2 hour flight, even that is too much trauma for me. People ! I sincerely do appreciate the invite though, thank you.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

.
It’s just not for me.

Make it for you.

[wango]

Make it for you.

I understand your post. Thank you, but no. Solitary is fine by me.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

I understand your post. Thank you, but no. Solitary is fine by me.

Okay then at least run your own meditation course at home. Tell your wife you're not gonna talk for 3 days, and turn off your phone.

[wango]

Okay then at least run your own meditation course at home. Tell your wife you're not gonna talk for 3 days, and turn off your phone.

Shouldn’t be an issue, let me see after I finish this book. Two things I’ve already found useful are the concepts of simply letting go of negativity & Anartha Nivritti - so profound a simple little idea can be, amazing. Already finding greater peace.

[GirlyGymRat]

I read an interview with this book’s author a few weeks back & was impressed enough to order the book.

I started reading it a few days back & am simply amazed. He actually is a monk (with a prestigious business degree) and one heck of a teacher/writer. Only 40 pages in, because I have to take it ever so slowly to focus on & allow each idea sink into my consciousness.

I already feel the lessons’ impact effecting my approach to life.

I follow Jay! He has much to offer. Inspirational!

[Fluidic Kimbo]

Did you finish the book wango?

[wango]

Did you finish the book wango?

No. I’m approaching this book patiently. His concepts/ideas although simple, are numerous - I want to dwell on each separately and let them take root.

The dude is one hell of a teacher & writer.

[Fluidic Kimbo]

I came across another real-life example 4 months ago.

I met a girl in her 20's who had really nice teeth. But her father had horrible yellow/brown teeth, and so did her siblings.

It turns out that her father has a genetic defect that prevents the formation of enamel on teeth -- and he passed this defect on to some of his children.

This is child abuse. If you have no enamel on your teeth and it's genetic, then don't use your own sperm to have children. Get a sperm donor, or adopt.

[Quester]

Depends, is your disability genetic?