11 lessons from Vietnam....

[tryingtogetbig]

I'll ask it again...

"What right has Bush taken away from YOU?"

In other words...what can YOU not do today you could do before?

Nothing...

Just liberal BS Bush bashing!

peace,

ttgb

[BOUNCER]

Some people are really showing lack of knowledge also in this thread.


ttgb

Yeah, like "we own Afghanistan, we own Iraq". BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA. Man that was funny. Is that anyway like the Russians owned Afghanistan before you,and Britain thought they OWNED Ireland ?

Oh casualty figures.

American Casualties in Iraq
Date Total In Combat

Since May 1st (the list) 379 248
Since war began: 519 360
Since Capture of Saddam: 64 48
Total wounded: 2941
Last Updated January 28th, 2004

More reading on casualty figures and the 100 Berm believes have been lost.

(long read, but worth it.)

US Dead In Iraq Exceed
First Three Years Of Vietnam
By David Morgan
11-21-3

PHILADELPHIA (Reuters) -- The U.S. death toll in Iraq has surpassed the number of American soldiers killed during the first three years of the Vietnam War, the brutal Cold War conflict that cast a shadow over U.S. affairs for more than a generation.

A Reuters analysis of Defense Department statistics showed on Thursday that the Vietnam War, which the Army says officially began on Dec. 11, 1961, produced a combined 392 fatal casualties from 1962 through 1964, when American troop levels in Indochina stood at just over 17,000.

By comparison, a roadside bomb attack that killed a soldier in Baghdad on Wednesday brought to 397 the tally of American dead in Iraq, where U.S. forces number about 130,000 troops -- the same number reached in Vietnam by October 1965.

The casualty count for Iraq apparently surpassed the Vietnam figure last Sunday, when a U.S. soldier killed in a rocket-propelled grenade attack south of Baghdad became the conflict's 393rd American casualty since Operation Iraqi Freedom began on March 20.

Larger still is the number of American casualties from the broader U.S. war on terrorism, which has produced 488 military deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan, the Philippines, Southwest Asia and other locations.

Statistics from battle zones outside Iraq show that 91 soldiers have died since Oct. 7, 2001, as part of Operation Enduring Freedom, which President Bush launched against Afghanistan's former Taliban regime after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on New York and Washington killed 3,000 people.

The Bush administration has rejected comparisons between Iraq and Vietnam, which traumatized Americans a generation ago with a sad procession of military body bags and television footage of grim wartime cruelty.

Recent opinion polls show public support for the president eroding as he heads toward the 2004 election, partly because of public concern over the deadly cycle of guerrilla attacks and suicide bombings in Iraq.

On Thursday, heavy gunfire and explosions echoed across Baghdad as U.S. troops pounded rebel positions for a second night, and administration officials sought ways to accelerate a transfer of power to the Iraqi people.

U.S. COMBAT POWER

Because U.S. involvement in Vietnam increased gradually after the French defeat at Dien Bien Phu in 1954, there is little consensus on when the war in Southeast Asia began.

Some date the war to the late 1950s. Others say it began on Aug. 5, 1964, when Lyndon Johnson announced air strikes against North Vietnam in retaliation for a reported torpedo attack on a U.S. destroyer in the Gulf of Tonkin.

However, the Army's start date for the Vietnam War has been set by its Center of Military History as Dec. 11, 1961, when two helicopter companies consisting of 32 aircraft and 400 soldiers arrived in the country, an Army public affairs specialist said.

"It was the first major assemblage of U.S. combat power in Vietnam," explained Army historian Joe Webb.

Vietnam casualties, which amounted to 25 deaths from 1956 through 1961, climbed to 53 in 1962, 123 in 1963 and 216 in 1964, Pentagon statistics show.

At the time, the U.S. presence in Vietnam consisted mainly of military advisers. President John F. Kennedy increased their number from about 960 in 1961 to show Washington's commitment to containing communism.

But not until 1965, after Congress had approved the Gulf of Tonkin Resolution, did Washington begin its massive escalation of the war effort. With a huge influx of soldiers, casualties in Vietnam soared to 1,926 in 1965 and peaked at 16,869 in 1968, the year of the Tet Offensive, data show.

In a major revision of U.S. military history in 1995, former Defense Secretary Robert McNamara said he believed the Gulf of Tonkin torpedo attack never occurred.

More than 58,000 U.S. military personnel died in Vietnam before the war ended in the mid-1970s.

In another comparison, British forces that created Iraq in the aftermath of World War One suffered 2,000 casualties from tribal reprisals, guerrilla attacks and a jihad proclaimed from the Shi'ite holy city of Kerbala, before conditions stabilized in 1921, according to U.S. military scholars.

Reuters included military deaths both on and off the battlefield for Operation Iraqi Freedom and Operation Enduring Freedom, for comparison with Vietnam War statistics that made no distinction between hostile and non-hostile casualties.

On Thursday, U.S. combat deaths totaled 270 for Iraq and 28 for other battle zones, including Afghanistan.

Copyright © 2003 Reuters Limited. All rights reserved. Republication or redistribution of Reuters content is expressly prohibited without the prior written consent of Reuters. Reuters shall not be liable for any errors or delays in the content, or for any actions taken in reliance thereon.

http://www.rense.com/general44/USdeadiniraqexceed.htm

[tryingtogetbig]

Ok, it's time to address this point. How long before 9/11 since we had an attack? anybody remember? it was the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993. so 8 years had passed. and now people say "its been been 2 years since we've had an attack Bush has saved us." cmon...Like bouncer said Bin laden and other terrorists invest years and years of effort into their work. If they want to hit us they will. how can you, after only 2 years, claim that bush has stopped anything?

So if I understand you correctly, you are saying that if Clinton had done something during those 8 years he was in office 9/11 probably wouldn't have happened!

Sorry...I seem to argue on the same intellect level as other people sometimes. lol.

Really, this is the same kind of mumbojumbo (logic) you are reciting.

I guess Bush was just suppose to sit back and "talk" with all of the terrorists and the countries harboring them.? Fuk That!

Again, thank goodness Bush is President...and will be for another term!!

peace,

ttgb

[tryingtogetbig]

Bouncer those #'s look REALLY high...I think it's like around 600 total.

I couldn't read the article either Bouncer...started saying "Vietnam War" in the first sentence. I know which direction it's going just from that.

peace,

ttgb

[BOUNCER]

ttgb. Do you think the 6 yr old boy whose brain washed today by his local imam doesn't have the next 30 yrs to wait to attack his enemies?. Get real, I've serviced in the middle east, I know my enemy and I'll tell you this. These are people whose backlash you'll feel again, and again. You attacked the wrong country, and the wrong tyrant. You got it so wrong, but then the Bush administration was only ever looking for a soft target. But your stuck there now, this is not a thread I'm getting too involved in because its been beaten to death already.

[tryingtogetbig]

...this is not a thread I'm getting too involved in because its been beaten to death already.

Agreed!

You instigator!

[BOUNCER]

Bouncer those #'s look REALLY high...I think it's like around 600 total.

I couldn't read the article either Bouncer...started saying "Vietnam War" in the first sentence. I know which direction it's going just from that.

peace,

ttgb

Nah its cool, I call it 'burying your head in the sand'. You know, if the loss of so many American lives in Iraq wasn't so tragic the Amercian media's coverage (or lack of) of the war in Iraq would be laughable. You see, apart from the BBC, Euronews and Sky News we also get to compare the coverage with media services from the US, ie FOX and CNN. Your media hides, or just doesn't bother to cover the casualty figures the US is suffering on a daily basis..

[symatech]

Nah its cool, I call it 'burying your head in the sand'. You know, if the loss of so many American lives in Iraq wasn't so tragic the Amercian media's coverage (or lack of) of the war in Iraq would be laughable. You see, apart from the BBC, Euronews and Sky News we also get to compare the coverage with media services from the US, ie FOX and CNN. Your media hides, or just doesn't bother to cover the casualty figures the US is suffering on a daily basis..

of course not, that would make the current admin look bad. and we cant have that on election year...

ttbg, what cant i do today that i could do before bush? i thought it was obvious. i thought that by posting your former VI amendment right it was blatantly obvious...ill explain again. I worry that for no reason I may be picked up by bush's gesthapo and spend the rest of my life in prision for something i never did. is it likely? not really i suppose, is it possible? yes. there no longer exists the Right to have a trial by jury. or for you to have a legal defense.

[tryingtogetbig]

Nah its cool, I call it 'burying your head in the sand'. You know, if the loss of so many American lives in Iraq wasn't so tragic the Amercian media's coverage (or lack of) of the war in Iraq would be laughable. You see, apart from the BBC, Euronews and Sky News we also get to compare the coverage with media services from the US, ie FOX and CNN. Your media hides, or just doesn't bother to cover the casualty figures the US is suffering on a daily basis..

Well...you sure seem to know everything bouncer! And be everywhere! And Know more than our military! And know more than the President of the United States! And.........ahhhh Fuk it!

****...why don't you run for president of a country somewhere?

Except that you are wrong here Bouncer...We do get to hear and see the number of casualties we are suffereing everyday...we hear it over and over....and then listen to people all day that "know everything" continue to bash US and or Bush.

Again, at least Bush is trying to do something!

peace,

ttgb

[BOUNCER]

Well...you sure seem to know everything bouncer! And be everywhere! And Know more than our military! And know more than the President of the United States! And.........ahhhh Fuk it!

****...why don't you run for president of a country somewhere?

Except that you are wrong here Bouncer...We do get to hear and see the number of casualties we are suffereing everyday...we hear it over and over....and then listen to people all day that "know everything" continue to bash US and or Bush.

Again, at least Bush is trying to do something!

peace,

ttgb

Oh I do apologise, I should have realised you wanted to hear more empty headed statements from ignorant rednecks than someone who actually keeps up to date with current world affairs that might effect me sometime in the future. As for being everywhere, well yes, actually I've been all over the world in my 19yrs (and counting) of military service. If that embarress's you hardluck but I can't pretend I haven't

Btw, I'm not attacking Bush in this thread, 'nor have I attacked the US. Get that straight.

[tryingtogetbig]

Oh I do apologise, I should have realised you wanted to hear more empty headed statements from ignorant rednecks than someone who actually keeps up to date with current world affairs that might effect me sometime in the future. As for being everywhere, well yes, actually I've been all over the world in my 19yrs (and counting) of military service. If that embarress's you hardluck but I can't pretend I haven't

Btw, I'm not attacking Bush in this thread, 'nor have I attacked the US. Get that straight.

Damit I like arguing with you!! If you are EVER in the states...you and I are drinking a cold beer together! On you of course!

peace,

ttgb

[symatech]

LOL. yeah i must admit looking back this thread didnt go where i wanted it to. i just thought it'd be interesting to try and see if learning from the past could prevent further such instinces in the future. in terms of scale the war in Iraq is no where near Vietnam. and i dont honestly think it will be. I was meerly trying to address the mistakes made, and if we had grown from them.

But, I -as much as I dislike- find it difficult to stop arguing politics. But I will stop now because we have beaten this to death and will never resolve anything much love for the bro's at AR.....ya righty bastads

peace

[BOUNCER]

Damit I like arguing with you!! If you are EVER in the states...you and I are drinking a cold beer together! On you of course!

peace,

ttgb

I won't be drinking any of that American sh*t and thats for sure

Symatech, unfortunetely WWI showed us that we don't learn from the past and as a result we repeated it with WWII. You know, I envy how some Americans are so patriotic here in Ireland if your patriotic to that extent its been drumed into us that we're being anti-British. However I hate to see people being led by blind idioledgy (sp'ing). I think ardent Bush supporters know deep down that he's an idiot, but probably take the view 'better the idiot you know than the idiot you don't....

[Elliot]

I won't be drinking any of that American sh*t and thats for sure

Symatech, unfortunetely WWI showed us that we don't learn from the past and as a result we repeated it with WWII. You know, I envy how some Americans are so patriotic here in Ireland if your patriotic to that extent its been drumed into us that we're being anti-British. However I hate to see people being led by blind idioledgy (sp'ing). I think ardent Bush supporters know deep down that he's an idiot, but probably take the view 'better the idiot you know than the idiot you don't....

yeah man all these blind patriots are sad..

[tryingtogetbig]

yeah man all these blind patriots are sad..

blind tree huggers are worse!!

[tryingtogetbig]

I won't be drinking any of that American sh*t and thats for sure

Bud light is probably a little stout for ya! Besides, I don't want ya drunk...just want to drink a beer with ya!!

[Elliot]

lol.. they wanted to impeach/castrate clinton for getting head yet they let bush send our troops to get slauthered because he try to kill his daddy, wait i mean CAUSE SADDAM POSSES WMD AND HES A EVIL EVIL MAN!#@!@

[tryingtogetbig]

lol.. they wanted to impeach/castrate clinton for getting head yet they let bush send our troops to get slauthered because he try to kill his daddy, wait i mean CAUSE SADDAM POSSES WMD AND HES A EVIL EVIL MAN!#@!@

That is kind of insensitive to the Iraqi's that are now US citizens that have endlessly told of Saddam's horrors and how he treated people. WMD on his own people, rapeing, murdering. ANd he thumbed his nose at the UN for 10 years. Obviously you didn't read that above, so you probably won't comprehend this time either.

Yeah Symatech...this thread's life is about over now.

Fun debating with all of you.

peace,

ttgb

[hoss827]

Four more years of Bush will at least pave the way towards US domination. 4 more years of free oil, 4 more years of the middle east not f u c k i n g with the US.
Once a democratic pres gets the white house, then the terrorists will come out of hiding and be able to roam around freely.

Very true bro.....Pretty much were all f u c k e d anyway...

[hoss827]

lol.. they wanted to impeach/castrate clinton for getting head yet they let bush send our troops to get slauthered because he try to kill his daddy, wait i mean CAUSE SADDAM POSSES WMD AND HES A EVIL EVIL MAN!#@!@

That's bull****....I personally thought Clinton was a good prez...Look at it from this perspectivve...

People cheat on their spouses ALL THE TIME....Why is it that when the president does it, it's time to throw stones???? That's sheer hypocracy IMO anyway..

[USfighterFC]

Sorry dudes but there is no way I'm gonna post an argument because everyone wants to get their point across 1000 times even though it will make no difference. Nobody will ever prove anyone wrong and everyone will always think they're right. I disagree with a lot of what I heard in here but there is no way I'm gonna post a reply because I know that I will post at least 100 more after that and I'm way to lazy and I'm just glad to be on roids and dont want that mood ruined.

[Terinox]

WHY do some Americans even think 9/11 happened?!? PLEASE don't tell me it's because you think these "terrorists" suddenly decided to just attack the U.S. for the hell of it?!? Because they were JEALOUS of your way of living?! And that they just did it for fun?! Please, tell me why YOU guys think 9/11 happened, I would like to hear that.

[BOUNCER]

Sorry dudes but there is no way I'm gonna post an argument because everyone wants to get their point across 1000 times even though it will make no difference. Nobody will ever prove anyone wrong and everyone will always think they're right. I disagree with a lot of what I heard in here but there is no way I'm gonna post a reply because I know that I will post at least 100 more after that and I'm way to lazy and I'm just glad to be on roids and dont want that mood ruined.

Well that looks like a reply to me!, YOUR IN...

[hoss827]

WHY do some Americans even think 9/11 happened?!? PLEASE don't tell me it's because you think these "terrorists" suddenly decided to just attack the U.S. for the hell of it?!? Because they were JEALOUS of your way of living?! And that they just did it for fun?! Please, tell me why YOU guys think 9/11 happened, I would like to hear that.

In my opinion....9/11 happend because it was their belief that it must happend. They are supposed to wage a holy war against us...There's one thing i've learned about that whole experience...To them, were the evil empire...and to us, they're nothing more then terrorists. When 9/11 happend, most people just said "They should burn in ****ing hell" that i heard from. I thought to myself "Why would they do that???". It was their beliefs that lead them to do it... The lesson i learned though ,was that there is no right or wrong in the world, no good or evil. Only hate.

[Terinox]

In my opinion....9/11 happend because it was their belief that it must happend. They are supposed to wage a holy war against us...There's one thing i've learned about that whole experience...To them, were the evil empire...and to us, they're nothing more then terrorists. When 9/11 happend, most people just said "They should burn in ****ing hell" that i heard from. I thought to myself "Why would they do that???". It was their beliefs that lead them to do it... The lesson i learned though ,was that there is no right or wrong in the world, no good or evil. Only hate.

Dude, you think U.S. going into Afghanistan was the U.S.'s revenge/retalliation?! 9/11 WAS THE MIDDLE EASTS revenge/retallation for all the things the U.S. has done to these ME and 3rd world countries. Although the ME general hate for the U.S. has a small part for it, the MAJOR reason is for all the ****. Countless things, selling of weapons to ENCOURAGE war between Iraq/Iran, constant desire and need for their oil, occupation of their lands and boarders and sea coasts!!

[USfighterFC]

LOL bouncer I haven't said jack about anything yet. but i will say this......9/11 happened because our troops are in the middle east and our support of Israel (main reason i think) and that terinox is so far off with his horse**** beliefs of the US........well because he has his own agenda. We saved plenty of peoples asses in the course of time as well. But he likes to overlook that fact for his own personal reasons(which are pretty obvious) People just suck the big one. To be honest terinox what you just said sounds a lot like what Al-Qaeda preaches to the world everyday.

[USfighterFC]

Oh one more thing terinox look at what the Russians do to the Chechens everyday. Look how they openly torture those people and have no quarrels about leveling entire cities with no regard for civilians. Look what they did when they went into afghanistan and slaughtered millions of people for the f*ck of it. Look how they supressed the practice of Islam in their borders for 70 somewhat years. Look how they forcefully took over Muslim countries of the CIS and completely changed their way of life and religious practices. Kinda funny how they have such great relations with middle eastern countries and hardly catch flack for what they do or have done.....which is by far much worse than anything we've done. It's great to see the double standards that someone accuses us of doing but then turns around and does the same thing right back to us. Some people love letting their ideology blind them from reality to just completely strengthen their stance on a certain cause (not hitting you on that just those ME countries).

[tryingtogetbig]

oohhh USFighter....you fuked up!! lol

Just like being in quick sand or a gigantic pile of horseshiet...you're stuck in the middle of the endless debate over how bad America and its leaders are!

Now you too are a "blindless patriot" because you actually believe America has a good agenda!

Good luck bro!

peace,

ttgb

[bermich]

So we should not have a military anymore cause soldiers might die???? There is NO DRAFT. People enlisted on their own free will. UNLIKE VIETNAM.

Lordblitz said it best. If America was weak, other countries would come over and take it over.... That is enough said right there.

America is not going to WITHDRAW from IRAQ.
RED Ketchup. Just because soldiers are dying, doesnt mean there is still a war.
So if one soldier dies that mean the war is still raging on?

Stop comparing IRAQ to Vietnam. When 50,000 american soliders die in IRAQ, then compare it.

If America was taken over, trust me, all you complainers would say we should have had a stronger military and we should have prevented this.
You guys are probably the ones that wait til your engine blows up from lack of oil because the car is running fine so why bother checking and maintaining it.

[USfighterFC]

LOL i know i f*cked up but I couldn't stand on the sidelines while people talk so much s*it about this country. Politics is politics and I hate many politicians but I'm so happy to live in this country. People say "what is this country coming to" and that kinda crap but we live in the greatest society this world EVER produced. We were the first country to democratically elect who we wanted and we had the right to say anything we wanted how much better could life be. Everyone has the right to live their life the way they want without fear of anything. It's the best system ever....it's got it's flaws but we're not exactly God so it can't be perfect. If our country was under threat of annhilation i would go to war to protect everything i love over here, to protect everything we ever stood up for. I'll go to war and die for this country because it is just that good for the life we were allowed to lead anyway we wished. Some people in other countries hate us for that and if they do then they should just shut up and deal with their life on their side of the planet instead of burning our flags and threatening our people.

[bermich]

Dude, you think U.S. going into Afghanistan was the U.S.'s revenge/retalliation?! 9/11 WAS THE MIDDLE EASTS revenge/retallation for all the things the U.S. has done to these ME and 3rd world countries. Although the ME general hate for the U.S. has a small part for it, the MAJOR reason is for all the ****. Countless things, selling of weapons to ENCOURAGE war between Iraq/Iran, constant desire and need for their oil, occupation of their lands and boarders and sea coasts!!

Constant demand and need for oil??? We have NO NEED for oil. Fact is, we will use up everyone elses oil and reserve ours while no one else has any. Its called planning ahead. Europe uses way more oil than the US.
IRAN back in the Reagan years was a threat to America and constantly attacked America. IRAQ at the time was a friend because the ENEMY of your ENEMY is your friend. ALL countries do that.

Get your F U C K I N G opinions seperated from fact. You just spit out stupid nonesense about oil and greed and think that is the big picture.
There is NOTING IN AFGHANISTAN that we need or want. It is a desert with hills and caves. USELESS.


What has the US done to these ME countries? We stayed away and let them fight their own holy war and supported Isreal cause they support our beliefs and government. They hate us because we are not educated about the middle east. Finally we get involved and now they hate us more. Oh well.
Now the Middle east can have a real reason to hate us if they are gonna hate us regardless

This thread is fun. It irritates me but it is kinda interesting. Makes me see how the tree huggers think and how they mesh fact and opinion into whatever makes their point come across.

[bermich]

Oh yeah. Who was the person who said Bush will not be re elected? Is that fact or just your opinion. He is going to win again by a land slide. The only person who has a chance is that general guy who entered the Demos late.
He will not be assasinated or impeached. It is too hard to impeach a president. Clinton just happened to try to escape his f u c k up. If he admitted to it, the situation would have been forgotten quickly.

[tryingtogetbig]

oooohhhh bermy.....you fuked up BIG TIME!!!! lol

God help ya! You too are now a "blindless patriot."

[mfenske]

There was a time when I thought that the Bush admin. orchestrated the whole 9/11 attack. They used Bin Laden as a scapegoat. Talk about a good way to improve one's sagging approval rating and struggling economy. Just a thought that I had. I am sure Purepower and Tryingtogetbig are gonna flame the heck out of me for this but oh well. Mark

[tryingtogetbig]

lol.....No, you are okay. In no way fashion or form are you a "blind patiot."

lol

You do know that's pretty fuked up though....RIGHT!!?? Okay, so maybe just a little flame. You can go hug your trees now!! lol

peace,

ttgb

[USfighterFC]

you still think that mfenske? That's awful man.......plus you see how bad our intell and CIA is....you think Bush would honestly pull that off without getting caught? You can't think like tha man that kinda thinking is dangerous.......i hated clinton but if it was clinton in office there is no way in hell I would ever think he orchestrated it.

[tryingtogetbig]

wait a minute USFIGHTER....maybe all of this is Clinton's fault!!???? hmmmmmmm

you might be on to something there......

[mfenske]

Why couldn't he get away with it. Presidents get away with lots of stuff that ordinary guys wouldn't. With the way that some (not all) of the media and citizens here allow themselves to be spoonfed government filtered info why not? I'm not saying I have a single shred of evidence. It was just a thought. Wouldn't put it past him. I sincerely hope I'm not the only one who ever thought that. Based on what I have seen politicians will do whatever is necessary to get what they want, irregardless of cost or consequence. Mark

[BOUNCER]

See fighter YOUR IN!

[Terinox]

LOL bouncer I haven't said jack about anything yet. but i will say this......9/11 happened because our troops are in the middle east and our support of Israel (main reason i think) and that terinox is so far off with his horse**** beliefs of the US........well because he has his own agenda. We saved plenty of peoples asses in the course of time as well. But he likes to overlook that fact for his own personal reasons(which are pretty obvious) People just suck the big one. To be honest terinox what you just said sounds a lot like what Al-Qaeda preaches to the world everyday.

It's all bull****? You think the U.S. did NOT sell weapons to Iran and Iraq to prolong the war? That is a fact, whether you like it or not.

I have NOTHING against the country as a whole, or any of it's citizens (well majority) who just want to live their lives and are making a living. I am against a lot of the things that the government does behind EVERYONE'S back and doesn't tell you about. When the hell did I say I SUPPORT terrorism? There are tons of **** that the ME countries have done and still do that is also terrible. And the fact that you are basically calling ME a terrorsit with that comment shows the kind of person you are. I'm not even gonna go on about this **** anymore and turn it into one giant flame war. I TOLD myself not to get involved in this political **** since all this **** happened last time.

So whatever, I'm done here, good luck with the debate.