question for americans

[saboudian]

HOW IS THE WAR ILLEGAL??? You're a dumbass

If you invade a country that does not pose an imminent threat (which iraq wasn't and still isn't and the bush administration painted the picture that it was, but never actually said it was an imminent thread) then it is an illegal war.

[saboudian]

If you pick up a weapon, or hide behind skirts, and strap bombs to children....... you have to expect us to defend ourselves........

Death is death...... only an insane idiot would attack a tank with a stick. ... get the picture.......

Actually you bring up a very good point (although you might not have realized it). Nothing wrong with defending yourself at all, no arguement there, every person's right. But go one step further and find out for yourself why so many women and children died in fallujah. I guarantee you'll be surprised when you find the answer.

[OGPackin]

OG, just have time for a quick reply. I'm not Cav so I can't claim to be an authority on MBT's. But you might find that the situ with the T-72 -V- Abrams is marksmanship to a larger extent than simply the armour makeup of the MBT.
From the news footage it appeared that the rocket penetrated the rear turret ring, a weak place on any tank. The Israeli's pretty much covered that area with some ball and chain armour. I have some photos of the Merkava in South Lebanon with it, but I'd have to scan them first.

Cool bro! Hit us up with some kickass photos!

OG

[BOUNCER]

Great photo of the ball and chain I'm talking about.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~herrax/images/merkava.jpg

[OGPackin]

Great photo of the ball and chain I'm talking about.

http://koti.mbnet.fi/~herrax/images/merkava.jpg

Yes i see what ur talking about. I knew that area of the turret is vulnerable, but i figured the Abrams could handle an rpg. I still say lucky shot...

OG

[BOUNCER]

http://krimi.tripod.com/merk3baz/merkava3baz12.JPG

A closer photo. Believe it or not they can explode the RPG. Another trick used by the Israeli's and later copied by the British in Northern Ireland was to use chicken wire fence around their OP's, the RPG is low volocity and the wide fins catch on the chicken wire, stopping penetration of the post.

This is a bad photo of the chicken wire idea. It was taken going through an Israeli position in South Lebanon. Excuse the bad quality, but taking photos of their positions can be life threatening

[BOUNCER]

Sorry, just checked the photo here, you can see nothing.

[OGPackin]

http://krimi.tripod.com/merk3baz/merkava3baz12.JPG

A closer photo. Believe it or not they can explode the RPG. Another trick used by the Israeli's and later copied by the British in Northern Ireland was to use chicken wire fence around their OP's, the RPG is low volocity and the wide fins catch on the chicken wire, stopping penetration of the post.

This is a bad photo of the chicken wire idea. It was taken going through an Israeli position in South Lebanon. Excuse the bad quality, but taking photos of their positions can be life threatening

IV actually seen the chicken wire around an Israeli tank. I had an idea it was to stop rpg's, but didnt know fer sure till now. thxs!

OG

[hugesunglasses]

i wouldn't vote for bush if i had a gun to my face. first for all of you guys that say bush is pro military and kerry is anti. check your records. most know that kerry served his country in vietnam while president bush was busy being awol from the air national guard. most soldiers wouldn't have been able to get away with this, but we all know who his father is. also, bush is creating a culture war here in our own country. he is a religious freak in favor of censorship and revoking the first ammendment. his religious views have also allowed him to put a near end to stem cell research. and i don't know about you guys, but if you've ever knocked a girl up, here's a scary thought: bush would reverse roe vs. wade, thus outlawing abortion...if only he could install his guys as supreme court justices. just try and think a little bit before you vote this fall.

[Tock]

Guys I hate to pi$s on your parade, but the news here in Europe have shown a few Abrams burning. One where the RPM penetrated the turret, showing the badly injured crew exiting the tank... And today the Iraqi's brought down a blackhawk and an Apachi.

Yah, well, the Bush Administration has made it clear to the media that they don't want pictures of stuff like that made available to the American public.
Seems such things might erode support for Bush's re-election.
-Tock

[BOUNCER]

Yah, well, the Bush Administration has made it clear to the media that they don't want pictures of stuff like that made available to the American public.
Seems such things might erode support for Bush's re-election.
-Tock

I know, its sad. Young Americans dying for a second term. It wasn't good enough for him that he signed more warrents for death row inmates than anyother govenor of Texas, now he's sending fine young Americans to their death and doesn't like it when their killed, bad for election time.

[Tock]

. . . s n i p . . . bush would reverse roe vs. wade, thus outlawing abortion...if only he could install his guys as supreme court justices. just try and think a little bit before you vote this fall.

If Bush gets to pick another few Supreme Court Justices, well, there go a bunch more of what's left of our civil rights, including the right to have an abortion.
Since I'm gay and all, it won't affect me too much, but it sure as heck will affect the millions of people who never bothered to vote before, and they're gonna get mad as hell and vote for every and any Democrat that will champion the cause of a woman's right to have an abortion, and Democrat after Democrat will continue to get elected and re-elected until some anti-abortion Justices are replaced and the issue can be re-re-visited and overturned.
My guess is that that would take 30 years or so of solid Republican thrashing. All because the conservatives tried to push too much conservatism down the throats of the American people . . .
-Tock

[3vil3lmo]

America is a highly conservative and paranoid country. The world would benefit from open trade etc. but its countries like America and Australia that are denying countries in need to trade.
Even on the off chance they do trade, they rip the poor countries off and put them further into debt.

[spywizard]

That's why we send 1,000,000 tons of corn to North Korea every month....

please...........

France, and Germany were the contries trading with Iraq against the wishes of the UN........ and the world..........

America is a highly conservative and paranoid country. The world would benefit from open trade etc. but its countries like America and Australia that are denying countries in need to trade.
Even on the off chance they do trade, they rip the poor countries off and put them further into debt.

[3vil3lmo]

North Korea has plenty of food.
Russia and almost every african country doesn't.
"And the world" according to whom? America? Don't assume because your government believe something that, that is how the world sees it.

[PurePower]

i beleive at the end the dediction of the people and freedom fighters in iraq will beat the high-tech usa troops ,my brothers in iraq with little bit of old weapons are doing well beating and confusing the well trained marines,til this moment usa is loosing in iraq.
God bless those mighty fighters!

This statement MAKES ME SICK TO MY STOMACH........Is he claiming to have killed American soldiers?......If so, this will not go unavenged.

[inheritmylife]

North Korea has plenty of food.
Russia and almost every african country doesn't.
"And the world" according to whom? America? Don't assume because your government believe something that, that is how the world sees it.

North Korea has plenty of food? You need to reinvestigate the facts.

[navydevildoc]

I wont get into what kerry "did" - his method of getting 3 purple hearts is a tad suspect - but he did serve and that is honorable - what he did after was dispicable

and something that happened 35 years ago doesnt really mean he would be much of a military president - one thing is a fact and that is the troops love Bush

The troops love bush?!?!?!?!?!?!

Where did you get that little gem? Fox News?

Have news for you bro... that's NOT the case in many, many, many cases. How do I know??? I AM ONE. Bush has done very little to help troops. At first, everyone was all excited that the military got some action and it was all rah-rah bush.

But guess what... after our friends started coming home DEAD and everyone realized this isn't some glorified recruiting commercial the support for Bush in the rank and file began to wane.

Or maybe it's that our sea and combay pay was CUT, supposedly when we were at "war".

Or maybe reservists like myself were sent to the sandbox being told "Don't worry that you don't have all of your gear yet... we will get it to you later". Only to find old, outdated, worn out gear waiting for us.

Then once we did get there, troop rotations keep getting extended more and more... dates for return to the states get pushed back further and further.

Or maybe the fact that he held the Lincoln 300 miles off the coast of San Diego for 3 days to hold his photo op playing carrier pilot and to declare that the war in Iraq was over. Meanwhile, those were 3 days that the 5000+ sailors and marines on the boat had to wait to see their families after a 9 month deployment.

Maybe the stunt showing up in Iraq for thanksgiving with a plastic turkey for a great press photo-op was it.

Anyway, you get the idea? The reason everyone is all smiles around bush is because you have to. He is the commander in chief. Regardless of whether you like him or not, he is still the boss.

[Cycleon]

i beleive at the end the dediction of the people and freedom fighters in iraq will beat the high-tech usa troops ,my brothers in iraq with little bit of old weapons are doing well beating and confusing the well trained marines,til this moment usa is loosing in iraq.
God bless those mighty fighters!

Now, while you can debate ideas, what you cant do on an American board is wish American soldiers harm - so I will give the board 2 weeks rest from your rants of uninformed hate and give you a chance to meditate on the benefits of democracy while noting that AR is not one But while you are meditating, you might dwell upon the idea that if our positions were reversed and you had the power on this board, it would be very likely that you would have booted me or anyone that didnt share your warped ideas that have been brainwashed into you - sadly, you are not deemed smart enough to be allowed to think for yourself - but anyway, meditate awhile on how this makes americans different, that we have even allowed you to post.

And btw - most Iraqis are not happy with most of the people in the "resistance" - of course they dont like being invaded but are happy saddam is gone and genuinely hope to have democracy and a real chance at having a real country - which is a lot better than I can say for your pitiful country - which is not even ruled by your own leaders, but a cleptocracy in Damascus

[saboudian]

hey Mguy.. USA hasn't even brought in the big boy guns and bombs.. if all terrosists are like you (yes i am saying your a terorist) it ain't gonna be long before USA says "**** fighting carefully so we don't kill too many of you and too many innocents.. lets start bombing from the air with BIG BOMBS" you know the bomb raids the destroy cities? those aren't far away because of fcuks like you... at this point your whole little one minded fucckin world will be gone.. including your buildings..

I'm not trying to knock you or anything but do you know why wesley clark was 'fired' as supreme commander of nato? He wanted to put troops on the ground instead of using an air campaign, would have saved plenty of innocent lives, but american soldiers would have died, so they 'fired' him and went with the air campaign anyways.

If you would have still supported an air campaign in kosovo anyways, i would still respect your decision.

I actually think Mguy is right on this one, hi tech weaponry really isn't going to fare well against unconventional guerilla warfare.

[saboudian]

As another note, I really don't think bush's poor military record vs kerry's worthy career is really gonna be much of a factor. BTW, I really don't buy that thing about kerry getting his 3 prpl harts in a shady way, i actually don't know all the facts on that case, but i knows its probably not true because bush's attack machine hasn't used it against kerry at all yet, and they'll take anything they can get, take gas prices for example, bush should be getting killed on this issue, but he has taken the offensive on kerry. Anyways, back to my point, look at dole vs clinton. Dole served a very admirable career, also paid severely for it, and well, clinton sorta dodged it and it really didn't end up making a difference.

Anyways, I think its good to get some points out there on each side, but lets have this debate again once we start seeing kerry v bush in a good debate on tv when its really game time, and we'll see how each of them hold up.

BTW, did anyone see that q&a bush had with reporters, he really dodged some of those questions completely, it was almost absurd how he answered a couple of them.

Oh and Mguy, i think you should have put up a poll on your original question, as it is a very good question. But so far it seems iraq is getting worse, and there's still no jobs.

[saboudian]

BTW spywizard, i'm still waiting for my job

Seriously though, i don't think some ppl understand how hard it really is to find a job. I myself have put in about 15 apps and have gotten nothing as i said earlier. Just today I was talking to this guy in my chem lab that was working, and he told me only 1/3 of the chemical egrs who graduated last semester got jobs so far, thats really scary, especially since we're talking about egrs not liberal arts. Alot of companies like DOW have switched to hiring once every 3 years, which really sucks.

[RP7]

The troops love bush?!?!?!?!?!?!

Where did you get that little gem? Fox News?

Have news for you bro... that's NOT the case in many, many, many cases. How do I know??? I AM ONE. Bush has done very little to help troops. At first, everyone was all excited that the military got some action and it was all rah-rah bush.

But guess what... after our friends started coming home DEAD and everyone realized this isn't some glorified recruiting commercial the support for Bush in the rank and file began to wane.

Excellent post!

And thank god MGuy is gone for a while.... let's be democratic and just vote for his permanent banning... Hoss is like "How has he not been banned yet?!?". Chalk mine up as the first.

[BOUNCER]

hehehe.. Militiaguy got cocky, took enough rope and hung himself..

As I say about my first wife ''I took the woman out of the ghetto, but I couldn't take the ghetto out of the woman''...

His through colours came through.

[mekalk]

bush all the way. time to make a parking lot out of iraq

[Cycleon]

As another note, I really don't think bush's poor military record vs kerry's worthy career is really gonna be much of a factor. BTW, I really don't buy that thing about kerry getting his 3 prpl harts in a shady way, i actually don't know all the facts on that case, but i knows its probably not true because bush's attack machine hasn't used it against kerry at all yet, and they'll take anything they can get, take gas prices for example, bush should be getting killed on this issue, but he has taken the offensive on kerry. Anyways, back to my point, look at dole vs clinton. Dole served a very admirable career, also paid severely for it, and well, clinton sorta dodged it and it really didn't end up making a difference.

Anyways, I think its good to get some points out there on each side, but lets have this debate again once we start seeing kerry v bush in a good debate on tv when its really game time, and we'll see how each of them hold up.

BTW, did anyone see that q&a bush had with reporters, he really dodged some of those questions completely, it was almost absurd how he answered a couple of them.

I agree that its not going to make any real difference - Kerrys post war record on defense is pretty clear and Bush is on the job so people can make up their mind on that. The reason no attack dog will touch Kerry' phearts tho is because, even if they were a bit shady Bush would lose 20 points just by questioning them - its a no win to attack his military record and it wastes time by focusing on vietnam not today, again a loser for Bush who can better make his case on todays merits.

As to a press conference, its not really Bush' job to answer the reporters question, rather to get out the message he wants to present. They tried 3 times to get him to appologise and he ha to dance through that minefield - you say, "why doesnt he just do that?" because the next day the only headline would be BUSH APPOLOGISES and not a single soundbite would cover the rest of all his speach

[OGPackin]

hehehe.. Militiaguy got cocky, took enough rope and hung himself..

As I say about my first wife ''I took the woman out of the ghetto, but I couldn't take the ghetto out of the woman''...

His through colours came through.

Its like i keep saying bro. Keep them talking and they will show their true colors. Works everytime...

OG

[Animal Cracker]

Being Fascist ..Bush I the best we have! Also, as long as he continues on this campaign to help rid the world of this disease..he has my vote..

[Animal Cracker]

The troops love bush?!?!?!?!?!?!

Where did you get that little gem? Fox News?

Have news for you bro... that's NOT the case in many, many, many cases. How do I know??? I AM ONE. Bush has done very little to help troops. At first, everyone was all excited that the military got some action and it was all rah-rah bush.

But guess what... after our friends started coming home DEAD and everyone realized this isn't some glorified recruiting commercial the support for Bush in the rank and file began to wane.

Or maybe it's that our sea and combay pay was CUT, supposedly when we were at "war".

Or maybe reservists like myself were sent to the sandbox being told "Don't worry that you don't have all of your gear yet... we will get it to you later". Only to find old, outdated, worn out gear waiting for us.

Then once we did get there, troop rotations keep getting extended more and more... dates for return to the states get pushed back further and further.

Or maybe the fact that he held the Lincoln 300 miles off the coast of San Diego for 3 days to hold his photo op playing carrier pilot and to declare that the war in Iraq was over. Meanwhile, those were 3 days that the 5000+ sailors and marines on the boat had to wait to see their families after a 9 month deployment.

Maybe the stunt showing up in Iraq for thanksgiving with a plastic turkey for a great press photo-op was it.

Anyway, you get the idea? The reason everyone is all smiles around bush is because you have to. He is the commander in chief. Regardless of whether you like him or not, he is still the boss.

Funny- I got a raise in Sea Pay! IDP/Jump went up too!

[Mart651]

Most soldiers I know love Bush. I only met one guy who did not but I know for a fact he was gay before he went in and no gays like Bush.

The troops love bush?!?!?!?!?!?!

Where did you get that little gem? Fox News?

Have news for you bro... that's NOT the case in many, many, many cases. How do I know??? I AM ONE. Bush has done very little to help troops. At first, everyone was all excited that the military got some action and it was all rah-rah bush.

But guess what... after our friends started coming home DEAD and everyone realized this isn't some glorified recruiting commercial the support for Bush in the rank and file began to wane.

Or maybe it's that our sea and combay pay was CUT, supposedly when we were at "war".

Or maybe reservists like myself were sent to the sandbox being told "Don't worry that you don't have all of your gear yet... we will get it to you later". Only to find old, outdated, worn out gear waiting for us.

Then once we did get there, troop rotations keep getting extended more and more... dates for return to the states get pushed back further and further.

Or maybe the fact that he held the Lincoln 300 miles off the coast of San Diego for 3 days to hold his photo op playing carrier pilot and to declare that the war in Iraq was over. Meanwhile, those were 3 days that the 5000+ sailors and marines on the boat had to wait to see their families after a 9 month deployment.

Maybe the stunt showing up in Iraq for thanksgiving with a plastic turkey for a great press photo-op was it.

Anyway, you get the idea? The reason everyone is all smiles around bush is because you have to. He is the commander in chief. Regardless of whether you like him or not, he is still the boss.

[tryingtogetbig]

Most soldiers I know love Bush. I only met one guy who did not but I know for a fact he was gay before he went in and no gays like Bush.

The only soldiers that don't like Bush are the ones surprised that they are actually having to be soldiers in the armed forces....instead of just getting the gov't to pay them for being "play" soldiers. All of the friends and family that I have in the military love Bush and are glad for all of the efforts he is taking in ridding the world of bad people. Nice to see someone actually doing something instead of just talking about it.

It's funny to hear about a few soldiers saying "they are making us fight and sleep outside and stuff...and go fight wars....how unfair...I didn't join the military for this!!"

It truly is just a handful of these pussies, but you see them all over the news....oh well.

peace,

ttgb

[Mart651]

The squeaky wheel gets the most coverage.

The only soldiers that don't like Bush are the ones surprised that they are actually having to be soldiers in the armed forces....instead of just getting the gov't to pay them for being "play" soldiers. All of the friends and family that I have in the military love Bush and are glad for all of the efforts he is taking in ridding the world of bad people. Nice to see someone actually doing something instead of just talking about it.

It's funny to hear about a few soldiers saying "they are making us fight and sleep outside and stuff...and go fight wars....how unfair...I didn't join the military for this!!"

It truly is just a handful of these pussies, but you see them all over the news....oh well.

peace,

ttgb

[SwoleCat]

I never understood why MilitiaGuy wasn't banned long ago. I saw his true colors way back when, and he's been attempting to make a mockery of every U.S. citizen on A.R./the U.S. in general, since he's been here. I'd have nuked his ass off my board from jumpstreet. Just doing my part to protect "my country". F*ck the terrorist b*tch.

~SC~

[OGPackin]

The only soldiers that don't like Bush are the ones surprised that they are actually having to be soldiers in the armed forces....instead of just getting the gov't to pay them for being "play" soldiers. All of the friends and family that I have in the military love Bush and are glad for all of the efforts he is taking in ridding the world of bad people. Nice to see someone actually doing something instead of just talking about it.

It's funny to hear about a few soldiers saying "they are making us fight and sleep outside and stuff...and go fight wars....how unfair...I didn't join the military for this!!"

It truly is just a handful of these pussies, but you see them all over the news....oh well.

peace,

ttgb

Very well said!

OG

[Carlos_E]

if every american knew one person who died in the trade centre towers, I would bet 95% of america would vote bush in again and again until every last terrorist was hind and quatred..

If you knew someone in the trade centres who died or a fireman would you vote bush? I bet alot of people who say they are against him wouldn't be if they lost someone to terrorism

I know 2 people who died in the Trade center towers and I have a relative who's institutionalized, still mentally traumatized by the whole thing. AND NO, I WILL NOT VOTE FOR BUSH!

[Superhuman]

I never understood why MilitiaGuy wasn't banned long ago. I saw his true colors way back when, and he's been attempting to make a mockery of every U.S. citizen on A.R./the U.S. in general, since he's been here. I'd have nuked his ass off my board from jumpstreet. Just doing my part to protect "my country". F*ck the terrorist b*tch.

~SC~

hell yeah, ban that son of a bitch

[IwannaBeBig]

Bush is the man

[chicamahomico]

I agree Bush is the man for his time and place......the 1950's.

Bush is the man

[tryingtogetbig]

I agree Bush is the man for his time and place......the 1950's.

The good ole days!!!

[saboudian]

As to a press conference, its not really Bush' job to answer the reporters question, rather to get out the message he wants to present. They tried 3 times to get him to appologise and he ha to dance through that minefield - you say, "why doesnt he just do that?" because the next day the only headline would be BUSH APPOLOGISES and not a single soundbite would cover the rest of all his speach

Ya, i pretty much agree with that, but it did sound a lil odd when a reporter asked bush that his administration has never really admitted a mistake, and bush pretty much replied with we haven't made any mistakes.

I think this is really one of the major faults of american gvmt, the pres. really doesn't have to answer to anyone. I love seeing Blair having to defend himself in front of parliament, i think its great gvmt, i would love to see bush have to speak to congress and defend himself. I remember when a reporter asked bush yesterday how come he doesn't have more of these press conferences, and guess what, you're right, he just wanted to get out a msg. Well this is why i want to see a bush/kerry debate, lets see if bush can defend himself when he must, however i have a feeling that every time kerry attacks him on foreign policy issues, bush will respond with ' I'm doing it for the freedom of the world' I really hope the debates this time around aren't a joke like the gore/bush debates, although they did make for good snl skits.