Testosterone - 2000mg/week

[Property of Steroid.com]

I would love to see it also

You and I are shit out of luck, my friend. Because there is no bloodwork to see...I doubt almost anyone here gets bloodwork done. Everyone preaches safe use of Anabolics, but I doubt many people actually practice it. It's one of the problems with AAS use today...even the people who say that AAS can be done safely often fail to actually do it safely.

It makes my job very difficult, when I talk to various outlets in the media, and say "well, yes...AAS can be used safely and not abused...but no, most recreational users don't use them safely..."

[donberry427]

There are far fewer ARs than most people realize. Some authors who are opposed to AAS doses beyond 200 mg/week say that only this amount will be accepted by the receptors in muscle, and everything past that will "spill over" and go into receptors in the skin and elsewhere.

Research shows that muscle tissue has, roughly, 3 nanomoles of ARs per kg. Then your body probably has less than 300 nanomoles of ARs, grand total, let's say.

Well, one 2.5 mg tab of oxandrolone supplies about 8000 nanomoles of AAS. Clearly, that's far more molecules than your body has receptors.

A little math shows that all those receptors combined could bind only a small percentage of the molecules of AAS in one little 2.5 mg tab. So binding to ARs cannot appreciably reduce the concentration of AAS in the blood. Therefore, the ideas that ARs will bind most of whatever dose some author recommends, or that "spill-over" will occur beyond that, are entirely wrong. There just aren't that many receptors.

Typical doses of AAS are high enough that a high percentage of the ARs are bound to AAS, whether the dose is say 400 mg/week or 1000 mg/week. If similar percentages of ARs are active – close to 100% in each case -- then why do higher doses give more results? It's a fact that they do, but there is not any large percentage of unoccupied receptors at the moderate dose. Thus, there is little room for improvement there. So at least part of the cause must be something other than simply occupying a higher percentage of receptors.

And why did I pick those doses, rather than comparing normal levels with say 400 mg/week?

The fact that the ARs must form dimers to be active has an interesting consequence. The mathematics are such that if two ARs must join together to form an activated dimer, and both must bind a molecule of AAS, then the square must be taken of the percentage. This means that if say 71% of receptors are binding steroid , only 50% of the dimers will be activated. Thus, at low levels, there is more room for improvement than one would think. But if say 95% are occupied, then even after squaring that, there would still only be 10% room for improvement.

But actual improvement – increase in effect – seems to be much more than 10%. Anabolism increases even as the dose becomes more than sufficient to ensure virtually complete binding. Why?

One popular explanation is that high doses of AAS block cortisol receptors and are thus anti-catabolic. But if this were an adequate explanation, then one could use anti-cortisol drugs together with low doses of AAS and get the same results as with high doses of AAS. This isn't the case. In fact, if cortisol is suppressed, this simply results in painful joint problems. And if the cortisol-blocking theory were true, we also would expect that persons with abnormally low cortisol ought to be quite muscular. That isn’t the case either.

Three other possibilities come to mind:

Possible Explanations for the Effect of High Dose Anabolic - Androgenic Steroids

High doses of AAS could upregulate AR production

Although activity cannot be greatly increased by increasing occupancy of existing receptors, it might potentially be greatly increased by increasing the number of receptors. This is mentioned here as a possible explanation for the effects of high dose AAS, not as an established observed fact in muscle tissue of bodybuilders. I am not aware of any such studies.

Upregulation is observed from supraphysiological doses of nonaromatizing AAS in other tissues, and is observed in humans in response to resistance exercise.

High doses of AAS could stimulate growth independently of the AR

In muscle tissue, androgen has been observed to activate the immediate-early gene zif268 in a process not involving the AR. This activity is almost certainly related to muscle growth, and it requires high doses.

Testosterone is observed to increase the efficiency of mRNA translation of cellular proteins, and this may be mediated by a mechanism independent of the AR.

Nerve tissue has been observed to respond almost instantly to androgen. This cannot be a result of the AR mediated process I have described here, because that process takes much more time.

Generally speaking, the hypothesis that a drug acts by only one mode of action can be tested by examining the dose/response curve. If an effect is dependent only upon the activity of a receptor, then the log response should follow a sigmoidal function (an S shaped curve). The graph would be nearly flat both at low and high doses, and approximately linear at moderate doses.

At moderate doses the linear function is indeed seen.

The problem is, for the range of approximately 100 to 1000 mg/week, the graph remains linear regardless of dose! By the way, this does not mean that twice the dose gives twice the effect. Rather, about four times the dose is required to give twice the effect.

This response is not consistent with a simple receptor-only model; such a model is not supported by the dose/response curve. But this type of response is to be expected if there are other variables besides receptor binding. This can be explained if one or more of the mechanisms is saturated at lower levels of drug, and one or more other mechanisms do not become saturated until much higher levels of drug are used.

High doses of AAS might improve the efficiency of action of ARs

Not only the number of ARs is important, but also their efficiency of operation. The entire process, as was partially described above, involves many proteins, some of which may be limiting. Increases in the amounts of these proteins might increase activity dramatically. For example, ARA70 is a protein which can improve the activity of the AR by ten times.

I am not aware of any study determining how ARA70 may be regulated by high doses of AAS. I cite this as an example of the type of pharmacology that may be going on, and also, incidentally, as a potential target. If you happen to see where some other drug has been seen to increase ARA70, that might be very interesting!

Other proteins which can affect efficiency include RAF, which enhances the binding of the AR to DNA by about 25-fold; GRIP1, and cJun. None of these, unfortunately, could themselves be taken as drugs.

But you can see that there are many ways by which AR activity could change besides any "upregulation" or "downregulation" of receptors. Authors who make such claims as the be-all and end-all of their steroid theories essentially do not know what they are talking about. Without specific evidence – without actual measurement of AR levels – it is always unjustified to claim that "androgen receptor downregulation must have occurred," especially on the basis of anecdotal evidence. Actual measurements are always lacking from such claims.

Nor is it justified to assume that increasing the occupancy of ARs is the only way to increase the effect of androgens, as we have seen. It is justified, on the basis of real world results, to say that high dose AAS are more effective than low dose AAS, and certainly more effective than natural levels of AAS. This is true even if use is sustained over time. That however is not consistent with any claims of downregulation of androgen receptors in response to high doses of AAS.

It also is justified both from bodybuilding experience and from scientific evidence that low AAS doses, such as 100 or 200 mg/week, will generally not give much results for male athletes.

I thought this could help or add some fuel to the fire...

[BG]

You and I are shit out of luck, my friend. Because there is no bloodwork to see...I doubt almost anyone here gets bloodwork done. Everyone preaches safe use of Anabolics, but I doubt many people actually practice it. It's one of the problems with AAS use today...even the people who say that AAS can be done safely often fail to actually do it safely.

It makes my job very difficult, when I talk to various outlets in the media, and say "well, yes...AAS can be used safely and not abused...but no, most recreational users don't use them safely..."

I hear ya, some people put tons of toxic compounds in ther body, dont get blood work, then will make a thread " I drank 10 beers last nite, will I be ok"....unreal. Or better yet, Ide use 2gs of tren before 2gs of test, I still cant get over that one.

[shrpskn]

Wow..interesting thread, to say the least.

Anyways, my 2cc's...

I've ran 1g test/wk and saw no difference than if I run 500-750mg/wk...if anything sides increase...I actually felt like shit at 1g/wk, where at a lesser dose I'm fine. 750mg/wk is the usual dose of test that works for me in any cycle.

I agree with the statement that pro BB's stack nors and DHT's fairly heavily...I know a close bro that competes and he's stacking what I would call "higher than average" amounts of deca , tren , and masteron in the same stack.

Personally, anything higher than 100mg/ed or 750mg/wk of tren is ridiculous...at least for me. I find no additional benefits to running tren any higher than that. The sides just get way too out of hand for me if I go beyond 100mg/ed, yet results are no better than if I run it at 75mg/ed.
This is the case with me and may very well be different with someone else.

JMHO,

-ShrpSkn

P.S. Contrary to a post a few counts up, I do have my blood panel checked on a very regular basis, hence the reason I've kept my AAS use within reasonable limits.

[Property of Steroid.com]

I hear ya, some people put tons of toxic compounds in ther body, dont get blood work, then will make a thread " I drank 10 beers last nite, will I be ok"....unreal. Or better yet, Ide use 2gs of tren before 2gs of test, I still cant get over that one.

I drank 10 beers a week ago in your neck of the woods...I was at CJ's pub, on Northern Blvd....

And when me and Brian went to Jamiaca, that was a pretty messy time for me, wrt alcohol...

But I still wouldn't do 2g's of Tren...WTF...

[taiboxa]

lol ok because i dont have written records of my blood work i dont do it if i knew i was here to have a E-Cock fight i woulda prepped but when u get blood work done every month .. its just not common practice to be like please mail me a copy and email me the results as well so that i can show them to people on the interent that way they will think im as cool as my mom thinks i am! once again notice the icon, k thnx.

[BG]

I drank 10 beers a week ago in your neck of the woods...I was at CJ's pub, on Northern Blvd....

And when me and Brian went to Jamiaca, that was a pretty messy time for me, wrt alcohol...

But I still wouldn't do 2g's of Tren...WTF...

[BG]

Tai, I understand where your coming from with not wanting to use high dosages of test, if I could'nt get laid I'de want to supress my self as much as possible also.Tren would be my base compound for all my cycles.

[taiboxa]

Tai, I understand where your coming from with not wanting to use high dosages of test, if I could'nt get laid I'de want to supress my self as much as possible also.Tren would be my base compound for all my cycles.

i got letro IM OK! though i did stop test all together and am running low tren /eq LOL otherwise i wouldnt be able to focus on studying for exams or EVEN TAKING THEM when there is a busty lil bruennette right in front/below me ><
LIFE ISNT FAIR

[BG]

i got letro IM OK! though i did stop test all together and am running low tren /eq LOL otherwise i wouldnt be able to focus on studying for exams or EVEN TAKING THEM when there is a busty lil bruennette right in front/below me ><
LIFE ISNT FAIR

[Property of Steroid.com]

lol ok because i dont have written records of my blood work i dont do it if i knew i was here to have a E-Cock fight i woulda prepped but when u get blood work done every month .. its just not common practice to be like please mail me a copy and email me the results as well so that i can show them to people on the interent that way they will think im as cool as my mom thinks i am! once again notice the icon, k thnx.

You implied (then directly stated) that you get bloodwork done. I called bullshit. You failed to provide proof of your claims.

End of story.

[*Narkissos*]

^^Blah blah blah...

I wouldn't post my blood work on an open forum either... being as visible as i am. I hardly give AAS advice anymore... or talk about my dosages/cycles/rationale.

I like how all 'rational' debates here turn into potshots.

re: BajanBastard etc.

Hopefully y'all've never know what the man runs... while i do.

re: blah blah blah

Tren is the most evil compound i've ever come accross... and i'd NEVER touch 2 gr of if.

But in concession.. given the choice of 1 gr tren v.s 1 gr test... I'd go with 1 gr tren hands down.

Honestly i may never touch test again.

[taiboxa]

^^Blah blah blah...

I wouldn't post my blood work on an open forum either... being as visible as i am. I hardly give AAS advice anymore... or talk about my dosages/cycles/rationale.

I like how all 'rational' debates here turn into potshots.

re: BajanBastard etc.

Hopefully y'all've never know what the man runs... while i do.

re: blah blah blah

Tren is the most evil compound i've ever come accross... and i'd NEVER touch 2 gr of if.

But in concession.. given the choice of 1 gr tren v.s 1 gr test... I'd go with 1 gr tren hands down.

Honestly i may never touch test again.

NOOOOOOOooooooooooo NOW ur going to piss him off and he is going to ask you to post ur drivers license to prove that u really are a person ><

[Property of Steroid.com]

NOOOOOOOooooooooooo NOW ur going to piss him off and he is going to ask you to post ur drivers license to prove that u really are a person ><

It should be no problem for you to get copies of your bloodwork faxed over to you....you said you get it done regularly, so why is it so difficult to prove?

Honestly, I doubt you do it at all....you're one of the many people who choose to do AAS in an unsafe manner, but the worst part about it is that you unfortunately give out advice to other people, claiming that all of this can be easily managed...then you fail to provide evidence (via bloodwork) of your ability to safely manage the side effects you're talking about.

It's irresponsible, and kills your credibility to say something, then not be able to provide proof of it.

[*Narkissos*]

screw pissing people off.

Every damned thread turns into digging up dirt on someone.

When the hell did we turn into a bunch of gossipy women?

[Property of Steroid.com]

screw pissing people off.

Pissing people off is fine...what isn't fine, I feel, is some (most) of the advice I see here on a daily basis. It's irresponsible. This was just one example, but it's pretty blatant.

I'm an advocate of responsible use of anabolics, by informed, rational adults. I see very little of that here, for the most part.

[taiboxa]

Pissing people off is fine...what isn't fine, I feel, is some (most) of the advice I see here on a daily basis. It's irresponsible. This was just one example, but it's pretty blatant.

I'm an advocate of responsible use of anabolics, by informed, rational adults. I see very little of that here, for the most part.

oh yes telling people to have blood work done prior to cycling to chek for prexisiting issues involving the hepatic/nephritic regions very IGNORANT on my part >< BETTER yet trial and error thats how it should be done ?
or better yet putthing them in a constant state of suppression? either way works for me, as long as i have my health psh ..

[LivingItUp]

more isnt always better.. why not rely on ur training and diet.. using that much is crazy... people these days rely solely on the gear to achieve their goals..

[Property of Steroid.com]

I wouldn't post my blood work on an open forum either... being as visible as i am. I hardly give AAS advice anymore... or talk about my dosages/cycles/rationale.

.

I don't follow your reasoning there....

I would wager that I'm (100x) more visible than you are...and I'm open about my use of AAS, give cycle advice, and talk about my dosages/cycles/rationale.

I'd gladly post my bloodwork...

[*Narkissos*]

^^A highly intelligent individual like yourself should have no problem following this train of thought.

I'll expand for you however...

You get paid to talk about AAS... your personal use solidifies your position.



I'm a drug-tested athlete.

Visible at that.

Posting 'post-cycle blood work' would be stupidity.

[taiboxa]

^^A highly intelligent individual like yourself should have no problem following this train of thought.

I'll expand for you however...

You get paid to talk about AAS... your personal use solidifies your position.



I'm a drug-tested athlete.

Visible at that.

Posting 'post-cycle blood work' would be stupidity.

BUT it would provide a more qualifying background for you to give advice on aas usage on the internet!

[A50#]

Heya all,

Are there any advantages of running 2000mg/week of test compared to the usual 500mg - 750 mg/week that we normally run.

Im just curious if anyone has tried that and if so what if any changes/differences, etc did anyone notice.

Im sure there are some out there who have done it I just hope they post what they noticed and are not worried about what some people might say..

I know we only have one body but hey why not try and see what we can do with it

Cheers.

Often done 1g week of test weekly. Grew like a weed and needed no other anabolics. Never pushed the 2g week route.

[*Narkissos*]

BUT it would provide a more qualifying background for you to give advice on aas usage on the internet!

True.. but since i'm not here to make money from giving advice, who needs it?

*Nark returns to the workout forum*

-Nark

[SS1476]

Nice read.

But..way too much test around here..

[BajanBastard]

He hasnt ran any cycle for more then 6 weeks I think he always stops. The he used to say tren wasnt toxic, the resinded. He'll say he would rather take 2 grams of tren, but I say its bullshit and bad to say on an open forum, others may get the wrong idea that its safer then test. Going against the grain seems cool and the way to go but not in all cases.

So i should do what? Become a fucking parrot? Where did i say tren was 'safer' than test?

You seem to have a bit of trouble understanding this so i'll break it down as simple as possible.

Point number one: Testosterone used at a high dosage made me feel sick so thus i would not use it higher than 500-750mg weekly.

Point number two: Trenbolone used at the same dose for a longer duration did not produce any adverse side effects, so thus my reasoning i would use 2 grams of trenbolone bofore i use 2 grams of testosterone.

I guess i should 'go with the grain' and use a drug that makes me feel like shit.

And yeah, i used to say tren was not kidney toxic in fact here's what i said in the thread:

I once thought tren's kidney toxic effects were BS but at 200mg daily my piss was black as coffee and i was drinking over a gallon of water daily.

Key point in bold. I was wrong, so fucking what?

[kloter1]

i know a few guys on the boards that have ran 1g to 2g a week and the only difference reported was alot more sides with 2g but not much more muscle gain.

[shrpskn]

Nice read.

But..way too much test around here..

Or too much tren ???

[shrpskn]

Honestly i may never touch test again.

Nark, what is the reasoning behind this?

I know I'm certainly not as advanced in the field as you are, but I'm also not a newbie.
Honestly, I'm not sure I would run a cycle without test...

I've heard of many running cycles without test and have achieved great results. I guess I'm just curious as to why you'd state that you may never touch test again.

Not trying to step on anyone's toes here, just wondering...

-ShrpSkn

[stupidhippo]

There are far fewer ARs than most people realize. Some authors who are opposed to AAS doses beyond 200 mg/week say that only this amount will be accepted by the receptors in muscle, and everything past that will "spill over" and go into receptors in the skin and elsewhere.

Research shows that muscle tissue has, roughly, 3 nanomoles of ARs per kg.

AND SO FORTH
A...

excellent post... interesting info if all true... i certainly didnt know all that... and many good points risen..

As far as the original question.. personally Im with tai here.. Im pretty new in cycling but did a all test cycle with a dose of 1,5 G weeks and gained nothing compared to the one after which was 700 mg of test + 400 mg of deca ... if I will do another cycle (depends can I keep any of this in the long run..) the test will be only used as a HRT dose and Im spending on my money in more nor compound..

[SS1476]

if I will do another cycle (depends can I keep any of this in the long run..) the test will be only used as a HRT dose and Im spending on my money in more nor compound..

I'm really thinking about trying this out for myself next year.
The more I read,hear about it....peaks my interest.

[RA]

Pissing people off is fine...what isn't fine, I feel, is some (most) of the advice I see here on a daily basis. It's irresponsible. This was just one example, but it's pretty blatant.

I'm an advocate of responsible use of anabolics, by informed, rational adults. I see very little of that here, for the most part.

Example?

Also, you said yourself that you are on hrt through legal means. If someone wants to shy away from giving to much info it seems you would understand they dont want legal issues.

I would dare to say more people in this thread do more aas than an hrt dose and have much more size to show for it

[guest589745]

750mg test I felt like shit. Lowered it to 500, then 350 and felt much much better. What does that imply?

[guest589745]

SonofaBITCH, why do people try an start shit over the internet?

Pathetic

Oh yea? Well I call on YOUR now what!?

Halarious really..........

[perfectbeast2001]

who cares.

[BajanBastard]

Example?

Also, you said yourself that you are on hrt through legal means. If someone wants to shy away from giving to much info it seems you would understand they dont want legal issues.

I would dare to say more people in this thread do more aas than an hrt dose and have much more size to show for it

Which is actually quite ironic seeing Hooker ripped into Bask8kase (sp) for advocating low dose cycles on this board.

750mg test I felt like shit. Lowered it to 500, then 350 and felt much much better. What does that imply?

It implies you should suck it up, go with the grain and used the testo.

[RobbieG]

I can find all of you, posting somewere that;

"AAS effects are different from person to person".

and btw, I wouldnt cycle tren without my prop and AI.

[Property of Steroid.com]

^^A highly intelligent individual like yourself should have no problem following this train of thought.

I'll expand for you however...

You get paid to talk about AAS... your personal use solidifies your position.



I'm a drug-tested athlete.

I had no idea that you were a drug-tested athlete. I was under the impression (for whatever reason) that you competed in the NPC.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Which is actually quite ironic seeing Hooker ripped into Bask8kase (sp) for advocating low dose cycles on this board.

My position is on low doses is, and always has been, that they produce less results than high doses. There is, however, a point of diminishing returns, and a factor of danger to consider. B8K, also had very little knowledge to back up any of his positions, and never made it past 185lbs or so, but claimed you could achieve the same results with low doses as hih doses. In short, my position remains the same, as does my opinion on high vs/ low doses. More steroids ='s more gains, ceteris paribus.

In this thread, in this case, I think that Skullsmasher could achieve his goals with the kinds of doses available from Oasis....which would also be legal, and safe.

There's no contradiction in my position in the past with my position of the present. The only difference in this thread vs/ ones years ago is that the names of the people (now vs/ then) who(wrongly) think themselves to be knowledgable on steroids has changed....

[shrpskn]

...and "The Great Debate" continues...

[Property of Steroid.com]

Example?

Glad you asked. Here's an example:

Short cycle options......