Testosterone - 2000mg/week

[fLgAtOr]

Acne seems to be very genetic as well, some people never gets it while others cant avoid it.

Bingo...Suddenly we have ANOTHER factor to consider...

[oswaldosalcedo]

My Doc told me that he belives elevated estrogen levels are are more of an offender than testosterone /androgens in not only acne, but things like hairloss and prostate problems/cancer as well.

Its very rare that young men in the age-group of 18-20 suffer from hairloss, prosate issues while their testosterone/DHT levels are at their all time high, while men in their 40-50 often have these problems when their T-levels have plummeld and estrogen levels are starting to rise.

Acne seems to be very genetic as well, some people never gets it while others cant avoid it.

more interesting yet.

[BG]

This is when I seem to break out most. Fluctuating hormone levels could also be a cause.

Me too, when I first go on, raise dosages or when I used to go off.

[BG]

Tapperring off at the end off my cycle helped greatly with reduction in my pct acne.

[Property of Steroid.com]

nandrolone does not aromatize

A simple search on medline proves otherwise.

Nippon Naibunpi Gakkai Zasshi. 1986 Jan 20;62(1):18-25. Links
[Aromatization of androstenedione and 19-nortestosterone in human placenta, liver and adipose tissues]

[Article in Japanese]

• Yoshiji S,
• Yamamoto T,
• Okada H.

Aromatization of C-19-steroid (androstenedione; delta 4 A) and C-19 norsteroid (19-nortestosterone; NT) was measured in human placenta, liver and adipose tissues. The tissue homogenates (0.5 approximately 1.0 g w.w.) were incubated with [6, 7-3H]-delta 4 A or [6, 7-3H]-NT (10 microCi) and NADPH (1 mg/ml of 0.1M-bisodium phosphate buffer) at 37 degrees C for 2 hr in air. The enzyme reaction was terminated with 3 volumes of ethyl acetate, and [4-14C]-estrone (E1) and [4-14C]-estradiol-17 beta (E2) (10,000 dpm, 250 micrograms) were added in the incubated sample. The extract with ethyl acetate was subjected to Bio-Rad AG1-X2 column chromatography. The phenol fraction thus obtained was subjected to thin layer chromatography (TLC) (cyclohexane-ethyl acetate = 2:1, V/V and chloroform-ethyl ether = 4:1, V/V). The resulting E1 and E2 were finally isolated by co-crystallization to constant specific activity and 3H/14C ratio of crystal crops. In human placental microsomes, estrogen formation from delta 4 A and NT was 8.10 and 1.84 pmol E1 + E2/hr/mg protein, respectively. In adult liver homogenates, only E1 (35-76 fmol/hr/g) was formed from delta 4 A, but E1 and E2 were formed (70 and 31-61 fmol/hr/g, respectively) from NT. On the other hand, adipose tissue had the ability to aromatize delta 4 A to E1 (38-69 fmol/hr/g), but its ability to aromatize NT was significantly lower than that for delta 4 A. These results show that NT is readily aromatized to estrogens in the liver.
PMID: 3699194 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

[Kale]

Tapperring off at the end off my cycle helped greatly with reduction in my pct acne.

I agree, tapering is shot down way to quickly these days. I think slowly lowering your levels makes much more sense than just switching it straight off. I do this when I come off and move to HRT and I get no sides at all anymore

[oswaldosalcedo]

Missed my point. I meant that assuming you had two senarios.

(1) High levels of androgens (you said you get acne, right?)
OR
(2) High levels of androgens AND estrogen.

When would acne be worse? I say, senarario #2.

It seems like your point is that androgens are the one cause of acne, and that estro has NO effect on it (correct me if I'm wrong).

If this was true, then users acne would improve during PCT, not get worse.

We all know androgens play a huge role in acne. Hence your Winny, Deca arguments. I think this is well documented. But no one is arguing this point.

I believe that estro has a role here. What? We don't know yet...But its there. You say it doesn't, but you only have two birth control studies... One of which that states "Estrogens may antagonize the androgen-induced actions on sebaceous glands and hair follicles". And the other that says the "progestin also has a direct peripheral anti-androgenic action in blocking the androgen receptor."

All this does is show that androgens play large role in acne and that by lowering them, acne can improve...Not that estrogen is eliminated from the cuases.

See where I'm going with this?

great! and thanks for your understanding.
is not eliminated,but there is no scientific test,substantiated with evidence to say "cause", he has to say,probable,he has to prove that contention, not the contrary.

there is more estradiol birth control studies.
it seem counterintuitive that estradiol diminishes it ,on the other hand, it augments it too.
look like, that dht or another metabolites can last a lot of time,this way there is, acne post cycle (pct).

[Property of Steroid.com]

great! and thanks for your understanding.
is not eliminated,but there is no scientific test,substantiate with evidence to say "cause", he has to say,probable,he has to prove that contention not the contrary.

there is more estradiol birth control studies.
it seem counterintuitive that estradiol diminishes it ,on the other hand, it augments it too.
it seem to me, that dht or another metabolites can last a lot of time,this way there is, acne post cycle (pct).

When everyone provides evidence (as in this thread) that estrogen is causing their acne, I feel justified in listing it as a cause. When you write a book and have access to 50k people to talk to, and everyone who you speak to says that something is going on with estrogen/acne...then I think you can feel justified in saying that it's a cause.

[oswaldosalcedo]

When everyone provides evidence (as in this thread) that estrogen is causing their acne, I feel justified in listing it as a cause. When you write a book and have access to 50k people to talk to, and everyone who you speak to says that something is going on with estrogen/acne...then I think you can feel justified in saying that it's a cause.

science?

[*Narkissos*]

I agree, tapering is shot down way to quickly these days. I think slowly lowering your levels makes much more sense than just switching it straight off. I do this when I come off and move to HRT and I get no sides at all anymore

Actually... i agree

It IS shot down too regularly...

[*Narkissos*]

When everyone provides evidence (as in this thread) that estrogen is causing their acne, I feel justified in listing it as a cause. When you write a book and have access to 50k people to talk to, and everyone who you speak to says that something is going on with estrogen/acne...then I think you can feel justified in saying that it's a cause.

Sure, the interpretation of literature is subjective.. but opinions aren't definative evidence.

They're opinions.

Personally i don't think acne is caused by one specific hormones.. Rather, the interaction (Ratio rather) of hormones and growth factors.

Just like developmental studies indicate that prepubertal gyno isn't caused solely by estrogen ..but rather the interaction between androgen levels; corresponding increase of oestrogens (some through the aromatization of elevated testosterone .. some increases triggered by NGF and other factors triggered by the onset of puberty); and the increased levels of growth factors.

Nark

[Property of Steroid.com]

Sure, the interpretation of literature is subjective.. but opinions aren't definative evidence.

They're opinions.

science?

Science is our best guess at the time. That's why we have what is known as "paradigm shift"...

Also, you're conveniently ignoring the post above that disproves your statement about nandrolone aromatizing. Good move.

[fLgAtOr]

great! and thanks for your understanding.
is not eliminated,but there is no scientific test,substantiated with evidence to say "cause", he has to say,probable,he has to prove that contention, not the contrary.

there is more estradiol birth control studies.
it seem counterintuitive that estradiol diminishes it ,on the other hand, it augments it too.
look like, that dht or another metabolites can last a lot of time,this way there is, acne post cycle (pct).

I'm following you...

Another thing about the BC studies, regardless if there are more... "BC is to estro" like "HRT is to test". (Did anybody else bomb the analogy portion of the SATs?) The dose of BC is supposed to be very close to your natty estro levels. I think this is important to mention becuase I believe that the increase of estro to a higher level is part of the argument.

The androgen "metabolite" is understandable...Hence acne would continue into PCT. But how do you explain the increase during PCT? I guess you could make an argument that PCT ancillaries increase androgens...but beyond what they were on cycle? I doubt it.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Right...so bottom line here is that I think I've made a strong enough case for the part of that profile that was questioned, yes?

[BG]

I agree, tapering is shot down way to quickly these days. I think slowly lowering your levels makes much more sense than just switching it straight off. I do this when I come off and move to HRT and I get no sides at all anymore

I keep more gains also and no depression.

[oswaldosalcedo]

I'm following you...

Another thing about the BC studies, regardless if there are more... "BC is to estro" like "HRT is to test". (Did anybody else bomb the analogy portion of the SATs?) The dose of BC is supposed to be very close to your natty estro levels. I think this is important to mention becuase I believe that the increase of estro to a higher level is part of the argument.

The androgen "metabolite" is understandable...Hence acne would continue into PCT. But how do you explain the increase during PCT? I guess you could make an argument that PCT ancillaries increase androgens...but beyond what they were on cycle? I doubt it.

pervasive arguments.
maybe it is necessary to take out androgens (in the reasoning) and think about dht or metabolites? and genetic predisposition?

[Property of Steroid.com]

pervasive arguments.
maybe it is necessary to take out androgens (in the reasoning) and think about dht or metabolites? and genetic predisposition?

Take out androgens and think about DHT, eh?

DHT = Strongest Naturally Occuring Androgen

[fitguy]

run a cycle w/ ur dht's and NORs much higher than ur test and keep test at HRT dose.. that ODDLY enough is far more effective for me than any other method.

what are your hrt doses that you use of test in comparison to the doses of the rest of compounds that you use in cycle,i was thinking of using hrt doses of test due to hairloss issues ..peace .

[fitguy]

I keep more gains also and no depression.

so do you guys pyramid nowadays ? i thought it was an old trend ..

[Kale]

so do you guys pyramid nowadays ? i thought it was an old trend ..

I dont, I taper off but when I start I go the full dose

[IBdmfkr]

Always taper at end of cycle, it's just not brought up around here because most won't agree for whatever reason.

[marcus300]

so do you guys pyramid nowadays ? i thought it was an old trend ..

Many on here will say its old school but pyramiding the dose at the end of cycle is sometimes a great advantage, if your at a stage were every lb of muscle tissue is getting harder to obtain and recovering your HPTA is getting longer and longer then tapering the dose is a great benefit, ive seen this many times either with myself or clients,

[Maldorf]

Many on here will say its old school but pyramiding the dose at the end of cycle is sometimes a great advantage, if your at a stage were every lb of muscle tissue is getting harder to obtain and recovering your HPTA is getting longer and longer then tapering the dose is a great benefit, ive seen this many times either with myself or clients,

I have to agree totally, from my personal experience as well.

[*Narkissos*]

Many on here will say its old school but pyramiding the dose at the end of cycle is sometimes a great advantage, if your at a stage were every lb of muscle tissue is getting harder to obtain and recovering your HPTA is getting longer and longer then tapering the dose is a great benefit, ive seen this many times either with myself or clients,

Describe a tapering protocol if you don't mind... For a 'standard' cycle

Thanks

[guest589745]

I dont understand the point of tapering down. I mean you are still suppressed/shutdown or w/e so how does it help/make sense ?

[fitguy]

what are your hrt doses that you use of test in comparison to the doses of the rest of compounds that you use in cycle,i was thinking of using hrt doses of test due to hairloss issues ..peace .

bump

[shrpskn]

Describe a tapering protocol if you don't mind... For a 'standard' cycle

Thanks

^^^Bump for response...

[BG]

Many on here will say its old school but pyramiding the dose at the end of cycle is sometimes a great advantage, if your at a stage were every lb of muscle tissue is getting harder to obtain and recovering your HPTA is getting longer and longer then tapering the dose is a great benefit, ive seen this many times either with myself or clients,

I taper and get great result doing so. I increase my dosages first at 7 weeks then after the active life of the esters I use after that. I do it about four times. Jayhova and I spoke when I first joined about dosage increases , compound and ester changes. I firmly believe more people should atleast try tappering at the end of their cycles. I had less acne, less of a drastic drop in libido and kept more gains because I overall just felt better imo.

[Maldorf]

Another thing I find myself doing to make for less side effects is a fast tapering off of orals I use to kick start a cycle, rather than quitting it cold turkey.

[marcus300]

Describe a tapering protocol if you don't mind... For a 'standard' cycle

Thanks

Nark-
tapering a dose at the end of a cycle does have great benefits in some, BB's who suffer from muscle loss and have problems recovering this protocol is a must IMHO, tapering slowly after cycle helps with libido issues,depression,acne and muscle loss plus many more,

Ive used many different ways at tapering but for me the best way is during a normal cycle i would start to drop the compounds off (like in any cycle end)until am left with the base of the cycle which would be test for me, then i would start to taper down the test by now this depends on how much your taking on how much taper you should drop, so for example lets say 50mg taper on every inject time, this slow taper helps with many problem and i dont care what people may say about your still suppressed or shut down on 200mg per wk as you would be on 2000mg per wk, because in my experience you can bring yourself back up alot easier when you have tapered down to a low amount of mg per wk than when running a high amount and suddenly stopping and go into pct,

You feel better, no sex drive problems, pct is alot easier and quicker, no depression and most of all muscle tissue loss in kept at a very little amount, now if tapering does all this, am all for it, many wont agree but ive seen it happen to many times with BB's and myself for it to be of great benefit,

Tapering at the start of a cycle is a no no but at the end its worth a try if you suffer from some of the problem up above,

[perfectbeast2001]

hmm interesting post Marcus. I might try this next cycle. I used to taper when I used gear years ago but then I didn't do PCT as it wasn't really populat then. I would like to see if tapering at the end + PCT will help with libido ect.

[shrpskn]

I'll have to consider this tapering protocol at the end of a cycle...see if it benefits me any better than an otherwise scenerio.

Good points in your post marcus. I can't see were one could go wrong giving this method a shot. If it yields some advantages great, if not so be it...back to the drawing board then I guess.

Thnks,

-ShrpSkn

[Property of Steroid.com]

Tapering isn't going to speed recovery, it's going to lessen withdrawal. I think a proper PCT (an aggressive one) is a much better approach.

[Bigun]

3 weeks ago I ended my biggest ever cycle which was 700mg a week Tren Ace (first time) and 1750mg Omadren (amp a day). I did get up to just short of the 300lb mark pretty lean.

Just going through PCT now and like those above I get more acne during PCT than when running the actual cycle.

My blood pressure went quite high so I was monitoring it. Felt like the Terminator when on that cycle, big hard and quite aggressive!

[vitor]

I have never bothered with tapering, but ime still young and I recover easy. Anyway, i find that a small dose Proviron in Pct will take care of the sides(coming off a cycle) that marcus listed.

[marcus300]

I'll have to consider this tapering protocol at the end of a cycle...see if it benefits me any better than an otherwise scenerio.

Good points in your post marcus. I can't see were one could go wrong giving this method a shot. If it yields some advantages great, if not so be it...back to the drawing board then I guess.

Thnks,

-ShrpSkn

All you can do is try it and see if it benefits you in recovering and with withdrawels of test, ive seen it work great with the guys who struggle with coming off even if they have done an aggressive pct,

I know some people will say it wont help with recovering faster but the truth of the matter it does, ive done it, ive seen it done many times but like everything in this buisness we are all in, in some it works and in some it doesnt becasue no matter what it says in studies when we use chemicals in the human body we all react differently WE DONT ALL REACT THE SAME when using chemicals,

so all am saying is if you have any of the syptoms ive described in the other post give it a go and see if it benefits you, if it does go with it if it doesnt go with WHAT WORKS FOR YOU.

[*Narkissos*]

^^Thanks

[taiboxa]

The only other thread with 5pages of useless info was the Hall of Shame thread I created.

This thread puts it to shame with the all the back and forth bickering..
You Internet tough guys are too much.

nah this thread has substance.

[fitguy]

bump

bump again ..please

[fitguy]

bump