Testosterone - 2000mg/week

[oswaldosalcedo]

Treat Endocrinol. 2002;1(6):372-86.

Managing cutaneous manifestations of hyperandrogenic disorders: the role of oral contraceptives.

Wiegratz I, Kuhl H.

Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, J. W. Goethe University Frankfurt, Frankfurt am Main, Germany.

Cutaneous manifestations of hyperandrogenic disorders (acne, seborrhea, hirsutism and androgenetic alopecia) can be caused by elevated levels of free testosterone or androgen precursors. In women with normal serum levels of testosterone or androgen precursors, enhanced local conversion to testosterone , or to the more potent androgen dihydrotestosterone, may lead to increased androgen activity in the pilosebaceous unit. Large individual variations in the response to normal or elevated androgens suggests considerable differences in local androgen metabolism and androgen receptor-mediated activities, which may partly be related to genetic disposition. Androgens cause opposite effects on hair follicles in the scalp compared with the face and body, and there are large differences in the length of anagen phase. Androgens enhance sebum production and keratinization, prolong the growth phase of face and body hair, stimulate the transformation of vellus to terminal hair, and shorten the anagen phase of scalp hair. Estrogens may antagonize the androgen-induced actions on sebaceous glands and hair follicles. Treatment with oral contraceptives (OCs) reduces the production of androgens and androgen precursors and increases sex hormone-binding globulin, resulting in a decrease of free testosterone levels . According to type and dose, the estrogen and progestogen components of OCs may directly reduce the effect of androgens within sebaceous glands and hair follicles. Therefore, OCs with a predominant estrogen effect may improve mild to moderate forms of acne and seborrhea, hirsutism and androgenetic alopecia, in a time-dependent manner. In women who do not respond satisfactorily, treatment with OCs containing a progestogen with antiandrogenic activity is recommended. In many women with severe acne or hirsutism, a considerable increase in the local concentration of the antiandrogenic progestogen is required to reduce the androgenic interaction with the androgen receptor. For this therapy, an OC containing cyproterone acetate can be used. If necessary, the dose of cyproterone acetate can be increased in a stepwise manner. While androgenetic alopecia is best treated with a low-dose OC containing cyproterone acetate (optimal effect occurs after at least 12 months of therapy), severe acne and hirsutism are significantly improved after 6-12 months of regimens containing high doses of cyproterone acetate (25-100 mg/day). After termination of treatment the disorders may reappear, therefore treatment with suitable low-dose formulations is recommended to maintain the therapeutic effect.

[oswaldosalcedo]

Arch Dermatol. 2005 Mar;141(3):333-8.
Correlation between serum levels of insulin-like growth factor 1, dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate, and dihydrotestosterone and acne lesion counts in adult women.

Cappel M, Mauger D, Thiboutot D.

Department of Internal Medicine, The Medical College of Wisconsin, Milwauke, USA.

OBJECTIVES: To determine if insulin -like growth factor 1 (IGF-1) and androgen levels (1) correlate with the presence and severity of acne in adult men and women, and (2) correlate directly with each other and interact in affecting acne. DESIGN: Case-control study and single-center examination of hormone levels in a cohort of volunteers. SETTING: Academic referral center. PATIENTS: Thirty-four subjects (8 women and 8 men with clinical acne, 10 women and 8 men without clinical acne). Clinical acne is defined by a history of persistent acne (acne present on most days for several years), recent acne treatment, and the presence of 10 or more inflammatory acne lesions and 15 or more comedones. INTERVENTIONS: Single visit for serum sampling. MAIN OUTCOME MEASURES: Serum levels of IGF-1 and androgens were determined, adjusted for age, and compared based on the presence or absence of clinical acne using an analysis of covariance. Correlations between hormone levels and acne lesion counts were calculated within each subgroup. Correlations were also calculated between serum levels of IGF-1 and androgens. Further statistical testing was conducted to determine whether IGF-1 or androgens had a greater effect on acne lesion counts. RESULTS: Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEAS), dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and IGF-1 correlated positively with acne lesion counts in women. Androstenedione and DHEAS correlated with acne lesion counts in men. Although the age-adjusted mean serum levels of IGF-1 were higher in women with clinical acne than in women without clinical acne, this difference did not achieve statistical significance. No difference in IGF-1 level was noted in men based on the presence of clinical acne. In women with clinical acne, IGF-1 correlated with DHT. In men with clinical acne, IGF-1 correlated with DHEAS and androstenedione. In men and women with clinical acne, the effects of androgens on increased acne lesion counts were dependent on the influence of IGF-1. CONCLUSIONS: Increased IGF-1 levels in addition to androgens may influence acne in adult men and women. While IGF-1 appears to have a stronger effect on acne in women, androgens may play a greater role in acne for men. However, in both men and women these hormones are interrelated, possibly owing to reciprocal effects on hormone production. J Obstet Gynaecol Can. 2002 Jul;24(7):559-67.


Oral contraceptives as anti-androgenic treatment of acne.

Lemay A, Poulin Y.

Universite Laval, Quebec, QC, Canada.

Although acne is seldom associated with high serum levels of androgens, it has been shown that female acne patients have definite increases in ovarian and adrenal androgen levels when compared to appropriate controls. As shown in several pilot and in multiple open and comparative studies, oral contraceptives (OCs) are effective in causing a significant regression of mild to moderate acne. These results have been confirmed by multicentre randomized trials where low-dose OCs did not cause side effects different from those of the placebo-controlled group. The beneficial effect of OCs is related to a decrease in ovarian and adrenal androgen precursors; to an increase in sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG), which limits free testosterone ; and to a decrease in 3a-androstenediol glucuronide conjugate, the catabolite of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) formed in peripheral tissues. The estrogen-progestin combination containing cyproterone acetate (CPA) is particularly effective in treating acne, since this progestin also has a direct peripheral anti-androgenic action in blocking the androgen receptor. Only two open studies and one randomized study on small numbers of patients have reported some efficacy of spironolactone used alone or in combination with an OC in the treatment of acne. The new non-steroidal anti-androgens flutamide and finasteride are being evaluated for the treatment of hirsutism.Oral antibiotics are prescribed to patients with inflammatory lesions, where they are effective in decreasing the activity of microbes, the activity of microbial enzymes, and leukocyte chemotaxis. Concomitant intake of an OC and an antibiotic usually prescribed for acne does not impair the contraceptive efficacy of the OC. A second effective contraceptive method should be used whenever there would be decreased absorption or efficacy of the OC (digestive problems, breakthrough bleeding), lack of compliance and use of a type or dose of antibiotic different from that usually prescribed for acne.Overall, the various approaches for the treatment of acne depend on the needs of the patient and on the therapeutic objectives. Low-dose OCs are effective in improving acne and have side effects similar to placebo. They can be used alone or in combination with other anti-acne agents. The physician prescribing an OC as an anti-androgen intervention should take into account the multiple factors involved in acne and be familiar with current non-hormonal agents for treating mild to moderate acne. Individuals presenting with moderate to severe acne, or not responding to an estrogen-progestin combination, should be referred to a dermatologist.

[Property of Steroid.com]

i said acne,not gyno,post the scientific evidence.

I said that there's strong inductive evidence, though it's conflicting in some areas. Here's some of that evidence, and my reasoning for thinking that estrogen is involved with acne, though it's not fully been elucidated yet. Also, as a member here has stated, people seem to get less acne with use of AIs, and more with SERMs. But as I said initially, data is conflicting.



: Clin Dermatol. 2004 Sep-Oct;22(5):419-28.
Acne: hormonal concepts and therapy.

• Thiboutot D.

Department of Dermatology, Pennsylvania State University, College of Medicine, P.O. Box 850, Hershey, PA 17033, USA. [email protected]
Acne vulgaris is the most common skin condition observed in the medical community. Although we know that hormones are important in the development of acne, many questions remain unanswered regarding the mechanisms by which hormones exert their effects. Androgens such as dihydrotestosterone (DHT) and testosterone , the adrenal precursor dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate (DHEAS), estrogens such as estradiol, and other hormones, including growth hormone and insulin-like growth factors (IGFs), may be important in acne. It is not known whether these hormones are taken up from the serum by the sebaceous gland, whether they are produced locally within the gland, or whether a combination of these processes is involved. Finally, the cellular and molecular mechanisms by which these hormones exert their influence on the sebaceous gland have not been fully elucidated. Hormonal therapy is an option in women with acne not responding to conventional treatment or with signs of endocrine abnormalities.
PMID: 15556729 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


Histol Histopathol. 2004 Apr;19(2):629-36.
Localization of sex steroid receptors in human skin.

• Pelletier G,
• Ren L.

Oncology and Molecular Endocrinology Research Center, Centre de recherche du Centre Hospitalier de l'Universite Laval (CRCHUL), Quebec, Quebec, Canada. [email protected]
Sex steroid hormones are involved in regulation of skin development and functions as well as in some skin pathological events. To determine the sites of action of estrogens, androgens and progestins, studies have been performed during the recent years to accurately localize receptors for each steroid hormone in human skin. Androgen receptors (AR) have been localized in most keratinocytes in epidermis. In the dermis, AR was detected in about 10% of fibroblasts. In sebaceous glands, AR was observed in both basal cells and sebocytes. In hair follicles, AR expression was restricted to dermal papillar cells. In eccrine sweat glands, only few secretory cells were observed to express AR. Estrogen receptor (ER) alpha was poorly expressing, being restricted to sebocytes. In contrast, ERbeta was found to be highly expressed in the epidermis, sebaceous glands (basal cells and sebocytes) and eccrine sweat glands. In the hair follicle, ERbeta is widely expressed with strong nuclear staining in dermal papilla cells, inner sheath cells, matrix cells and outer sheath cells including the buldge region. Progesterone receptors (PR) staining was found in nuclei of some keratinocytes and in nuclei of basal cells and sebocytes in sebaceous glands. PR nuclear staining was also observed in dermal papilla cells of hair follicles and in eccrine sweat glands. This information on the differential localization of sex steroid receptors in human skin should be of great help for future investigation on the specific role of each steroid on skin and its appendages.

[oswaldosalcedo]

Expert Opin Pharmacother. 2002 Jul;3(7):865-74.
Hormonal therapies in acne.

Shaw JC.

Division of Dermatology, Toronto Western Hospital, East Wing 8-517, 399 Bathurst Street, Toronto, Ontario, M5T 2S8, Canada. [email protected]

Hormones, in particular androgen hormones, are the main cause of acne in men, women, children and adults, in both normal states and endocrine disorders. Therefore, the use of hormonal therapies in acne is rational in concept and gratifying in practice. Although non-hormonal therapies enjoy wide usage and continue to be developed, there is a solid place for hormonal approaches in women with acne, especially adult women with persistent acne. This review covers the physiological basis for hormonal influence in acne, the treatments that are in use today and those that show promise for the future. The main treatments to be discussed are oral contraceptives androgen receptor blockers like spironolactone and flutamide, inhibitors of the enzyme 5 alpha-reductase and topical hormonal treatments.

[oswaldosalcedo]

Pediatr Clin North Am.
Endocrine aspects of acne.

Lucky AW.

In summary, the diagnostic tools are now available to ascertain whether elevated levels of androgens underlie some cases of acne vulgaris. Awareness of androgen excess as a contributing factor in acne may help to identify patients who would benefit from endocrine evaluation and, possibly, from hormonal therapy.

PIP: Androgens stimulate growth of sebaceous glands and enhance the production of sebum. Acne often appears when androgen levels rise, and the ascertainment of elevated circulatory plasma androgens is much more successful than it was 10 years ago. There are only 2 sources of androgen production in the body, the adrenal and the gonad, but end organs such as liver, fat, and skin have the potential to further metabolize precursors into more potent androgens, thus essentially functioning as endocrine organs. Both the adrenal gland and the ovary may overproduce androgens if malignant tumors occur. The most useful screening blood tests to ascertain elevated levels of androgens in patients with acne are plasma-free testosterone and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate. Rational hormonal therapy for acne is in its infancy and should be undertaken only in selected patients who have had appropriate endocrine evaluation and supervision. Empirically, both oral contraceptives (OCs) and low doses of glucocorticoids have been used with partial success for many years to treat acne. OCs with low (30 mg) to moderate (50 mg) doses of estrogen and a relatively nonandrogenic progestin such as norethynodrel, ethynodrel diacetate, and norethisterone or its acetate should be prescribed. Use of OCs eliminates the ovarian contribution to androgen excess and raises the testosterone-estrogen-binding globulin, thus lowering free androgens nonspecifically. Therapy with very low doses of glucocorticoids such as prednisone 2.5 mg, methylprednisolone .4 mg, or dexamethasone 0.25 mg may be useful as well. In the near future it is hoped that a group of drugs called antiandrogens, which prevent the action of the hormone at the target organ will be available.

[Property of Steroid.com]

I've got no idea what you're trying to do here. I posted studies suggesting that estrogen probably has something to do with acne. As I said, data is conflicting. You can post a million studies showing that it doesn't, but the fact remains that I posted studies suggesting that it probably does, and the inductive evidence supports that as well. As I said, data is conflicting.

[oswaldosalcedo]

Arch Dermatol Res. 1993;284(8):451-5.
Adrenal androgen abnormalities in women with late onset and persistent acne.

Aizawa H, Niimura M.

Department of Dermatology, Jikei University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan.

Androgens are an essential prerequisite for the development of acne. The present study was undertaken to characterize the androgen status of women with late onset and persistent acne only and, using the dexamethasone (dex) suppression test, to identify the source(s) of the androgen excess. We measured serum levels of total testosterone (T), free testosterone (FT), androstenedione (delta 4A), dihydrotestosterone (DHT), dehydroepiandrosterone sulphate (DHEA-S) and sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) in 34 healthy control subjects, in 34 women with mild acne and in 29 women with moderate or severe acne. Serum FT, DHT and DHEA-S levels in patients of both acne groups were significantly higher than those in the control subjects. The other hormone levels showed no significant differences between patients and control subjects, and there were no significant differences between the two acne groups in any of the androgen levels. In order to evaluate the ovarian and adrenal contributions to serum androgens in the acne patients, the serum levels of delta 4A, T, DHT and DHEA-S were measured prior to and following 2 weeks of dex therapy. Following the dex test, the DHT and T of adrenal origin were significantly higher in the acne patients than in the control subjects. These results suggest that, in acne patients, hyperandrogenaemia is likely to develop as a result of adrenal androgen excess. In addition, since abnormally high androgen levels are frequently seen in late onset and persist acne, it seems that this condition is likely to be a sign of hyperandrogenism.

[Snrf]

On another note Anthony your email isn't working

[oswaldosalcedo]

I've got no idea what you're trying to do here. I posted studies suggesting that estrogen probably has something to do with acne. As I said, data is conflicting. You can post a million studies showing that it doesn't, but the fact remains that I posted studies suggesting that it probably does, and the inductive evidence supports that as well. As I said, data is conflicting.

correct, estradiol diminishes it.
this way is important.

you said that it produces it

none of them (studies) says that it produces it

[Property of Steroid.com]

It's unfortunate that you are spending so much time looking at medical journals and not what people actually experience. I did that for a long time, sadly. It's a mistake. Most people find that when they use an AI, their acne goes away for the most part, and that when bloating and gyno are at the worst, so is gyno.

Medical data isn't going to prove to anyone here what their real world experience contradicts.

Like this:

http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...&postcount=196

Also...think about precontest bodybuilders, ok? They typically use non-aromatizing androgens WITH a very strong AI, right? And how is their acne compared to somebody on a bulking cycle, who is using no AI and more aromatizing drugs? Think about it. I know you have this medical data or that medical data...but basically everyone's real-life experience contradicts it. Letrozole reduces your estrogen to virtually nothing, right? But does anyone get acne from it? No. C'mon...get your head out of the textbook, and take a look at people's actual experiences.

[HORSE~]

The only time I get acne is during pct which is when my test levals have plumited and my estrogin levals have risen......

[oswaldosalcedo]

It's unfortunate that you are spending so much time looking at medical journals and not what people actually experience. I did that for a long time, sadly. It's a mistake. Most people find that when they use an AI, their acne goes away for the most part, and that when bloating and gyno are at the worst, so is gyno.

Medical data isn't going to prove to anyone here what their real world experience contradicts.

myself,dear sir.
i have very lower levels of estradiol (pre,in and post cycle) around 8-14 pg/ml (i dont need AI`S) men normal levels 10-50 pg/ml and suffer from acne anyway.
blood work is important.
acne come from androgens specially dht.

[Property of Steroid.com]

correct, estradiol diminishes it.
this way is important.

you said that it produces it

none of them (studies) says that it produces it

Half of the studies you posted don't have any shred of relevance to what you're arguing. Proving that androgens can cause acne does not disprove that estrogen also can. Proving that estrogen can help acne also doesn't prove that it can't cause it. For example, adequate sodium levels are necessary for prevention of certain conditions, too little and you risk certain other conditions, and too much still and you risk others.

Again, look for people's actual experience and you'll see that I'm on target.

[skr0w]

I get the consensus that everyone is avg. 500-1250 mgs. of test.
So if I was doing lets say sus 500mg a week and 400 mg of eq. does that equal 900 or just 500mg.

[Swifto]

The only time I get acne is during pct which is when my test levals have plumited and my estrogin levals have risen......

This is when I seem to break out most. Fluctuating hormone levels could also be a cause.

[Property of Steroid.com]

The only time I get acne is during pct which is when my test levals have plumited and my estrogin levals have risen......

This is when I seem to break out most. Fluctuating hormone levels could also be a cause.

Exactly. That's exactly what tons of people tell me....

And I used to have my nose so buried in a textbook that I wouldn't have listened to real AAS users like you...but now I'm more open to feedback like yours, and I'm a better writer for it. Here's what I'm talking about...(shameless book plug coming up):

The other (popular) steroid book on the market wasn't written with 50k people available to help...so what we're left with (in that book, not mine/ours) is shit like "Eq causes more water retention than Deca "...which the author figured is correct, because Eq aromatizes 250% more than deca...the only problem with that is ...ummmm....nobody has ever experienced more water retention with Eq than Deca. Yet, on paper...it appears correct.

To bad we don't live on paper.

[guest589745]

This is when I seem to break out most. Fluctuating hormone levels could also be a cause.

Me too, I got acne like a mutherfuker after my cycle. It hasn't gone away either, 3 1/2 months later. **** it, I'm back on right now and acne isn't a worry but more so the reasons behind why it is occurring.

[Property of Steroid.com]

I hadn't even thought of that initially...it's a great argument (though I didn't come close to coming up with it) for estrogen being behind acne. On PCT, androgen levels are low, and estrogen is high, and that's when a lot of people get their worst acne. Nice one, guys.

[oswaldosalcedo]

you has not proved that the estradiol produces acne,yet.

[marcus300]

It's unfortunate that you are spending so much time looking at medical journals and not what people actually experience. I did that for a long time, sadly. It's a mistake. Most people find that when they use an AI, their acne goes away for the most part, and that when bloating and gyno are at the worst, so is gyno.

Medical data isn't going to prove to anyone here what their real world experience contradicts.

Like this:

http://forums.steroid.com/showpost.p...&postcount=196

Also...think about precontest bodybuilders, ok? They typically use non-aromatizing androgens WITH a very strong AI, right? And how is their acne compared to somebody on a bulking cycle, who is using no AI and more aromatizing drugs? Think about it. I know you have this medical data or that medical data...but basically everyone's real-life experience contradicts it. Letrozole reduces your estrogen to virtually nothing, right? But does anyone get acne from it? No. C'mon...get your head out of the textbook, and take a look at people's actual experiences.

very true statement, experience is a far better tool than reading conflicting studies because for every one study theres is another conflicting one

[Maldorf]

The only time I get acne is during pct which is when my test levals have plumited and my estrogin levals have risen......

Exactly what I was going to add. This is the only time I have trouble too. Sometimes it gets pretty bad during PCT.

[fLgAtOr]

Oswald..some questions:
Your first study (post #201) states that by supp. estro (birth control) that it lowers production of androgens. However, in bold, it states that estro aggravates androgens.
We already knew androgens influenced acne right? Right. But BC is supposed to mimic your natural levels of estro...not increase them. So higher levels of estro can still cause ance. And the study clearly stated that estro plays a role by aggravating acne, esp with the presence of androgens.

And in the other BC study (post #202) it says that the progestin blocks the androgen receptor, cuasing the decrease in acne. But we already knew that.

The question is if estro plays a role in acne...EDIT: The question is not if estro is the SOLE CAUSE.

Hmm...heres an example... Gyno and 19-nors. Is it progesterone? Or is it estro? Or is the the complex relationship between the two?

[Property of Steroid.com]

you has not proved that the estradiol produces acne,yet.

It's too bad that you're:

A. Citing studies that do not prove your point (at all)
B. Ignoring everyone's personal experience (completely)
C. Not going to change your mind

[fLgAtOr]

I hadn't even thought of that initially...it's a great argument (though I didn't come close to coming up with it) for estrogen being behind acne. On PCT, androgen levels are low, and estrogen is high, and that's when a lot of people get their worst acne. Nice one, guys.

Fluctuating hormones is a great argument... But I think the ancillaries also play role (just a thought, so far..nothing concrete).

I'll be leaving clomid out of my next PCT to test this theory in a few weeks.

[oswaldosalcedo]

It's too bad that you're:

A. Citing studies that do not prove your point (at all)
B. Ignoring everyone's personal experience (completely)
C. Not going to change your mind

have post you?
that estradiol produces it?

[Maldorf]

Fluctuating hormones is a great argument... But I think the ancillaries also play role (just a thought, so far..nothing concrete).

I'll be leaving clomid out of my next PCT to test this theory in a few weeks.

Another bad time for acne I have found is when I go on HCG at the beginning of PCT. Just something to think about.

[Swifto]

I hadn't even thought of that initially...it's a great argument (though I didn't come close to coming up with it) for estrogen being behind acne. On PCT, androgen levels are low, and estrogen is high, and that's when a lot of people get their worst acne. Nice one, guys.

Anthony:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ghlight=theory

[oswaldosalcedo]

correlation is not causation (high levels of estradiol)
can be dht or other metabolites.

[fLgAtOr]

Another bad time for acne I have found is when I go on HCG at the beginning of PCT. Just something to think about.

The question is WHY?

Becuase of the "increase of testosterone "?

Or the increased aromatization becuase of the increased test?

Again, there are more than just one factor at play here.

[fLgAtOr]

correlation is not causation (high levels of estradiol)

Agreed...But I'm not sure if it completely answers the question though.

You have acne and you have low levels of estro while on cycle...But would your acne be worse if you popped birth control while On?

Its a stupid question...But I think the answer would be yes.

[Property of Steroid.com]

Anthony:

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...ghlight=theory

I hadn't seen that before. When I stated in my book/profiles a year or two ago that estrogen was at play in acne, I was mostly going off most of that same reasoning probably (the same as you had in your theory).

I doubt it's "fluctuating" hormone levels though...it's more likely that elevation of androgens as well as estrogens all play a role in acne. Maybe even some kind of ratio at work? Like if androgen/estrogen levels get to some arbitrary point 2:3 (in either one's favor) then acne might present itself.

I don't know...I do know that most people's experience is that elevated estrogen is a causative factor in acne, as well as elevated androgen levels, more often than not.

[oswaldosalcedo]

The question is WHY?

Becuase of the "increase of testosterone "?

Or the increased aromatization becuase of the increased test?

Again, there are more than just one factor at play here.

interesting.........
there are people that use ais and they continue with acne .

[Swifto]

I hadn't seen that before. When I stated in my book/profiles a year or two ago that estrogen was at play in acne, I was mostly going off most of that same reasoning probably (the same as you had in your theory).

I doubt it's "fluctuating" hormone levels though...it's more likely that elevation of androgens as well as estrogens all play a role in acne. Maybe even some kind of ratio at work? Like if androgen/estrogen levels get to some arbitrary point 2:3 (in either one's favor) then acne might present itself.

I don't know...I do know that most people's experience is that elevated estrogen is a causative factor in acne, as well as elevated androgen levels, more often than not.

I didnt conduct the PCT I outlines as I think it was my first cycle where I got pneumonia. But I'm using an AI next cycle and it will be intresting to see how my body responds.

As far as there being a ratio at work, I think a derm may be able to answer that. I'm seeing mine soon so I'll ask some questions.

I also thought elevated DHT was a factor in causing acne too...?

[oswaldosalcedo]

Agreed...But I'm not sure if it completely answers the question though.

You have acne and you have low levels of estro while on cycle...But would your acne be worse if you popped birth control while On?

Its a stupid question...But I think the answer would be yes.

i understand,but i have very low levels of estradiol pre,in,and after cycle.
(blood work) 8-14 pg/ml.

from bajan:

Nice theory Swift but it only covers one half of the problem. DHT and strong androgens in genaral cause acne as well
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=235980
post 7.

[Property of Steroid.com]

[quote=Swifto]I didnt conduct the PCT I outlines as I think it was my first cycle where I got pneumonia. But I'm using an AI next cycle and it will be intresting to see how my body responds.

As far as there being a ratio at work, I think a derm may be able to answer that. I'm seeing mine soon so I'll ask some questions.

I also thought elevated DHT was a factor in causing acne too...?[/quote]

For sure. That's what I meant when I said "androgens"...people usually think of testosterone and steroids , but not DHT when we talk about something like that.

[vitor]

My Doc told me that he belives elevated estrogen levels are are more of an offender than testosterone /androgens in not only acne, but things like hairloss and prostate problems/cancer as well.

Its very rare that young men in the age-group of 18-20 suffer from hairloss, prosate issues while their testosterone/DHT levels are at their all time high, while men in their 40-50 often have these problems when their T-levels have plummeld and estrogen levels are starting to rise.

Acne seems to be very genetic as well, some people never gets it while others cant avoid it.

[oswaldosalcedo]

nandrolone does not aromatize and can produce acne,same thing with winny.

[vitor]

nandrolone does not aromatize and can produce acne,same thing with winny.

Nadrolone "does" aromataze to estrogen.

Its by Hydorxylation by one of the cytochrome p450 enzymes, followed by an elimination reaction. (A fast chemical step)

[oswaldosalcedo]

Nadrolone "does" aromataze to estrogen.

Its by Hydorxylation by one of the cytochrome p450 enzymes, followed by an elimination reaction. (A fast chemical step)

correct no by aromatase.
nor-estrogen. no estrogen.

[fLgAtOr]

i understand,but i have very low levels of estradiol pre,in,and after cycle.
(blood work) 8-14 pg/ml.
from bajan:

Nice theory Swift but it only covers one half of the problem. DHT and strong androgens in genaral cause acne as well
http://forums.steroid.com/showthread.php?t=235980
post 7.

Missed my point. I meant that assuming you had two senarios.

(1) High levels of androgens (you said you get acne, right?)
OR
(2) High levels of androgens AND estrogen.

When would acne be worse? I say, senarario #2.

It seems like your point is that androgens are the one cause of acne, and that estro has NO effect on it (correct me if I'm wrong).

If this was true, then users acne would improve during PCT, not get worse.

We all know androgens play a huge role in acne. Hence your Winny, Deca arguments. I think this is well documented. But no one is arguing this point.

I believe that estro has a role here. What? We don't know yet...But its there. You say it doesn't, but you only have two birth control studies... One of which that states "Estrogens may antagonize the androgen-induced actions on sebaceous glands and hair follicles". And the other that says the "progestin also has a direct peripheral anti-androgenic action in blocking the androgen receptor."

All this does is show that androgens play large role in acne and that by lowering them, acne can improve...Not that estrogen is eliminated from the cuases.

See where I'm going with this?