itching driving me crazy

[marxbass]

I started a new cycle about 4 weeks ago. I don't like injecting myself so I get my uncles to do it for me. week 1 deca 300 (nomad) into the right cheek, my uncle stuffed it up, used my ass like dart board and didn't insert the entire needle like i usually do, luckily no bad came from it. The next week i my other uncle to do it for me who is more experienced for obvious reasons, deca 300 again into the left cheek this time. everything was fine and the following week (week 3) got another jab by my experienced uncle in the same cheek.... now all of a sudden this whole week both my ass cheeks have swelled up and itch like crazy..... everything was done right, injection in the right place, i used a new needle everytime. This has never happened before and now im 3 days away from my next injection and im worried.... should i be worried????? or should i just man up and take the jab elsewhere??????? please can someone help

[iceman86]

nah your ok. swelling is common after injecting. i would try to inject somewhere else if you are still swollen in a few days. Just keep an eye on it to make sure its not an infection but u should be fine.

[marxbass]

thanks buddy... appreciate it.

[Bonaparte]

So...your "uncles" spend a lot of time playing with your ass-cheeks, huh?

[scotty51312]

his uncle pokes his ass like a dartboard Bonaparte i was waiting for someone to say it first!

[Far from massive]

I think the Who did a song about this,


I'm your wicked Uncle Ernie
I'm glad you won't see or hear me
As I fiddle about
Fiddle about
Fiddle about !


Your mother left me here to mind you
Now I'm doing what I want to
Fiddling about
Fiddling about
Fiddle about!

Down with the bedclothes
Up with your nightshirt!
Fiddle about
Fiddle about
Fiddle about !



More lyrics: http://www.lyricsfreak.com/w/who/#share

[Bonaparte]

^^^ ROFL!
That's damn funny, if only a bit depraved...

[D7M]

I started a new cycle about 4 weeks ago. I don't like injecting myself so I get my uncles to do it for me. week 1 deca 300 (nomad) into the right cheek, my uncle stuffed it up, used my ass like dart board and didn't insert the entire needle like i usually do, luckily no bad came from it. The next week i my other uncle to do it for me who is more experienced for obvious reasons, deca 300 again into the left cheek this time. everything was fine and the following week (week 3) got another jab by my experienced uncle in the same cheek.... now all of a sudden this whole week both my ass cheeks have swelled up and itch like crazy..... everything was done right, injection in the right place, i used a new needle everytime. This has never happened before and now im 3 days away from my next injection and im worried.... should i be worried????? or should i just man up and take the jab elsewhere??????? please can someone help

What is your complete cycle and what are your stats?

[Sicko]

nah your ok. swelling is common after injecting. i would try to inject somewhere else if you are still swollen in a few days. Just keep an eye on it to make sure its not an infection but u should be fine.

Still given out advice to noobs with no stats posted?
Look around a little more at the way members act here..It is for everyones well being that you get this info before giving out cycle advice to new members.

[gym_junki]

Thats not a cycle advice mate he wasn't asking if he should take 300mg of deca on it's own or not which sounds Luke he is, but he was worried about something and wanted to know if it's normal or not, I know what your saying but in cases like this by the time someone writes what's your status than the reply it can be afew days late which might not help if the person has a problem.

[Bonaparte]

Thats not a cycle advice mate he wasn't asking if he should take 300mg of deca on it's own or not which sounds Luke he is, but he was worried about something and wanted to know if it's normal or not, I know what your saying but in cases like this by the time someone writes what's your status than the reply it can be afew days late which might not help if the person has a problem.

Agreed. Some people are taking this stats thing way too seriously. Yeah, its good to know someone's stats before advising them on what compounds to run or what doses, etc. However, if someone is asking whether they have an infection or not, their stats don't ****ing matter. It doesn't matter whether you're Jay Cutler or some scrawny 18 year old, an infection is an infection and sterile pinning techniques don't differ.

[marxbass]

ok... i see there are some real idiots that read these threads. I post this shit for real advice from real professionals because i respects and appreciate their input. if your not a pro and can't respect my question please don't post your idiotic comments.

i don't just use deca 300... i never said that was my "cycle" any idiot would know just taking deca is not a cycle.... my cycle consists of test enanthate , deca 300, and dianobol... i have always gone with the cycles recommended by steroid .com as i feel it is the best advice Ive received.

So i thank the good advice given by the pros.

[marxbass]

my stats ( not that it has anything to do with my question)

25, 1,72m, 98kg's, bf 13%, 7 years training, taking juice on and off for 5 years.

need anything else?

[scotty51312]

ok... i see there are some real idiots that read these threads. I post this shit for real advice from real professionals because i respects and appreciate their input. if your not a pro and can't respect my question please don't post your idiotic comments.

i don't just use deca 300... i never said that was my "cycle" any idiot would know just taking deca is not a cycle.... my cycle consists of test enanthate , deca 300, and dianobol... i have always gone with the cycles recommended by steroid .com as i feel it is the best advice Ive received.

So i thank the good advice given by the pros.

Don't get your panties in a wad. Injection pain is part of the game, if the pain persists keep an eye on your temperature and make sure you're not running a fever and look out for redness around the injection site or a persistant lump that lasts for more than a couple days. If you continue to have symptoms then see a doc. For the time being try injecting quads or delts

[Bonaparte]

my stats ( not that it has anything to do with my question)

25, 1,72m, 98kg's, bf 13%, 7 years training, taking juice on and off for 5 years.

need anything else?

So...your uncles have been taking turns sticking your ass for the last 5 years in the rape capital of the world (SA)??? Oh man, this is pure gold!

(but seriously, learn to pin your own damn self. That's just pathetic...)

[marxbass]

So...your uncles have been taking turns sticking your ass for the last 5 years in the rape capital of the world (SA)??? Oh man, this is pure gold!

(but seriously, learn to pin your own damn self. That's just pathetic...)

go **** yourself... you think your so high and mighty... come to SA ill teach you a lesson... one rule ive always lived by since i started juicing up... steroids doesn't make you bullet proof... im humble and treat people with respect... but not ****s like you!!!!!!! so do yourself a favor and go **** yourself you piece of shit!!!!!!!!!

[magic32]

What is your complete cycle and what are your stats?

^^^Exactly what I wanted to know!

[Bonaparte]

go **** yourself... you think your so high and mighty... come to SA ill teach you a lesson... one rule ive always lived by since i started juicing up... steroids doesn't make you bullet proof... im humble and treat people with respect... but not ****s like you!!!!!!! so do yourself a favor and go **** yourself you piece of shit!!!!!!!!!

Hahahahahahahahahaha.
Yeah bro, I'm going to fly to SA to get gang-raped by you and your possibly incestuous uncles...sounds like a plan.
BTW, you sound pretty tough for a guy who is afraid of poking himself with a little needle.

[Far from massive]

Damn although this thread has gone wrong in so many directions its the funniest thread I have read since joining.

PS To the OP if you wanna tell members to go F++k themselves you might wanna start out with someone a little less knowlegable and helpful than Bonaparte. Though he may not always have the bedside manner of a physician with too few patients he is as knowlegable and helpful as you will find on this board.

[Bonaparte]

BTW dude, chill out. I was just teasing you for the insane amount of ambiguously homosexual incest jokes in your first post. Combine this with the fact that you live in the rape capital of the world and the jokes write themselves.
In case you somehow don't see it, I took the liberty of skimming the post and deleting out the boring stuff. This is basically what I read: (which, to someone with a sense of humor who is bored, is pretty damn funny)

I don't like injecting myself so I get my uncles to do it for me. the right cheek, my uncle stuffed it up, used my ass like dart board and didn't insert the entire needle like usually my other uncle is more experienced for obvious reasons again into the left cheek this time got another jab by my experienced uncle in the same cheek.... both my ass cheeks have swelled up and itch like crazy..... should i just man up and take the jab elsewhere???????

[marxbass]

Damn although this thread has gone wrong in so many directions its the funniest thread I have read since joining.

PS To the OP if you wanna tell members to go F++k themselves you might wanna start out with someone a little less knowlegable and helpful than Bonaparte. Though he may not always have the bedside manner of an physician with to few patients he is as knowlegable and helpful as you will find on this board.

members like bonaparte dont know shit... he should be banned from posting anything... this site was developed to support new and experienced users.

he knows alot??? i can also read all the info on the site and pretend i know it all... he's got this obsession with rape maybe he was the one raped as a little boy... i was asking a simple question.... what dick head! im not even going to waist my time further with that piece of shit who can..... yes you guessed it... go **** himself.

[Far from massive]

Oh well I give up...

[Sicko]

Agreed. Some people are taking this stats thing way too seriously. Yeah, its good to know someone's stats before advising them on what compounds to run or what doses, etc. However, if someone is asking whether they have an infection or not, their stats don't ****ing matter. It doesn't matter whether you're Jay Cutler or some scrawny 18 year old, an infection is an infection and sterile pinning techniques don't differ.

Thats not a cycle advice mate he wasn't asking if he should take 300mg of deca on it's own or not which sounds Luke he is, but he was worried about something and wanted to know if it's normal or not, I know what your saying but in cases like this by the time someone writes what's your status than the reply it can be afew days late which might not help if the person has a problem.

I understand the idea guys,the only reason I said this because if you check into icemans posts he was giving another noob direct cycle advice without any kind of stats and was asked not to,obviously its not sinking in how the forem likes to operate.I am not one of those guys that screams stats for any old question,just trying to show a bad habit forming,one that you both dont condone as far as your posts state on a regular basis.
But hey, thanks for looking out for the new guys...
Notice how my post starts out with "STILL giving out cycle advice to noobs with no stats."

[Sicko]

Oh ssh!t,I just finished reading this whole thread, boy did it take a wrong turn!!!
See what happens!!!!

[marxbass]

Oh ssh!t,I just finished reading this whole thread, boy did it take a wrong turn!!!
See what happens!!!!

tell me about it... i was just asking a simple question and what do i get.... sarcasm and wannabe comedians. it was a simple question... do i have anything to worry about... answer yes or no?

[deladude]

haha, wow this got ugly.

hey u probably already know this but just incase
tell your uncle to inject slower. i take probably over 30 seconds to inject 2cc ans make sure your cheek is relaxed and not flexed. those should all help with iratation

[Far from massive]

Ok now that we are back on track and know your stats,

Make sure you are using a needle long enought to reach deep into the gluteal muscle, a 1.5" is generally the preffered length. If the needle is not sunk deep enough into the muscle or you use it like a sewing machine ( no insult intended) or inject to rapidly this can cause the compound to either be injected into or in the case of the too rapidly technique, leak into the subcutaneous layer causing burning and itching depending on the mixture and quantity injected subq.

Welcome aboard and realize lots here do joke around (not about what action to take, that is never wise) by the way I just remembered I have copied into MS "Word" a great post on diagnosing injection pain, see below.

This was posted in 2008 by Canadream, it is a very well written concise article on diagnosing injection problems and how to deal with them (although when needle aspiration is the proper course of action as opposed to incision is a touchy subject) other than that its all good IMHO.

INJECTION PAIN: Diagnosing a problem and what to do!

Here is a scenario that I read all too often on the boards:


A user has injected and a day later is having lots of pain and swelling to his injection site.

There are normally 3 reasons why this would occur.

The first reason is that the injectable used contained too much preservative such as benzyl alcohol which will cause tissue damage, and stimulate a local inflammatory response. The pain from this can be moderate and go away in a few days, or it can be severe and take almost a week to subside. It really depends on how much BA was in the solution injected and how much volume was injected. Normally the pain and inflammation can be controlled with Ice and anti-inflammatory such as Advil and after about the 3rd day, the user should notice a gradual subsiding of the symptoms.

The site should be swollen, and slightly red, but that swelling should be inside the muscle, and should begin to dissipate on the third day along with the pain. This is a slow progression though and could take as long as a week to ten days to fully go away, the key is it will slowly get better, not worse or stay the same.

The 2nd scenario is if you hit the lymphatic system with one of your injections.

The lymphatic system is a network of vessels that flow through your body. It is as extensive as your vascular system, and contains nodes at different parts are like storage depots or garrisons where White cells can accumulate for action.
The important thing to note is that the odds of coming into contact with the lymphatic system, as long as you stick to the conventionally recommended sites of IM injection are very small.
(The recommended sites are deltoids, ventogluteal (side of hip/ buttocks) , dorsal gluteus (back of buttocks top outer corner), vastus lateralis ( abductor lateral (outer side) of quadriceps).

But if you start doing ‘site’ injections, such as pectorals, biceps, inner quads etc. then you run much higher risk of hitting lymphatic tissue and disruption of ducts.

Lymphatic disruption is caused when you puncture into the area. Since it is fluid, but not blood, it has no means of initial clotting so the fluid will continue to flow into surrounding areas causing extreme localized swelling and pain. The swelling will then track up wards along the lymphatic system. The edema that is caused will also include surface edema – i.e. if you indent the area with your finger, the finger mark will remain. That is called ‘pitting edema’.

This edema comes on strong and fast, by the following day it is at its worst. There is normally no redness or ‘heat’ at the site, just swelling and pain. Ice and Advil can be helpful, but it usually takes a week for the swelling to dissipate, and for up to 10 days before you can resume training that body part, as the swelling can be so bad, it will limit your range of motion and flexibility in the muscle injected.

The Keys to note are that this usually occurs in an unconventional injection site, and there the swelling comes on quickly, and then doesn’t get worse. There is very little redness, and heat at the site. The site will have pitting edema, where as injection caused by too much BA has no pitting edema.

The third scenario is an injection site infection.

An infection can be caused by a few different factors but key is that you have introduced a bacterium into your muscle that doesn’t belong there, and is now invading your body.

This can be because what you injected was contaminated, because the needle you used was contaminated, or simply you just didn’t swab well enough either on the vial or your injection site.

The first thing that happens when you inject some gear is that the bacterium will cause a localized inflammatory response. That includes swelling, and redness, and heat to the area, very similar to if you had injected gear with a high BA content. What follows is that the infection will progress, and your body’s immune system will put in steps to defend itself.
Ice and Advil may help the pain, and temporarily blunt the swelling, but if you withdraw the therapy, the swelling continues to get worse. By the third day you will notice pitting edema to the area, unlike the lymphatic caused edema that occurs earlier then the third day.
Inside, the body will be attempting to contain the infection by forming a barrier around the infected area which is called a cyst. If the body is successful the infection can remained contained in that pocket and the body will slowly fight it. However the cyst can continue to grow in size taking up more and more of the muscle belly as cyst formation is not a guarantee that the body is able to kill the infection; it is just a way of slowing its spread.
Without cyst formation, the infection will reach the blood stream and that is when systemic symptoms will start occurring such as high fever, and limb swelling – and a gradual progression to systemic septic shock. We won’t get into this here other than to say, if you felt a fever coming on, then the only place you should be worrying about getting to is the closets Emergency department, as your life could literally be in peril. Once septic shock begins, if it is not caught soon enough it becomes impossible to stop the process regardless of how young and healthy you are; you will die.

So, back to the beginning, if it is the 3rd day, and you are beginning to develop the symptoms I discussed – the pitting edema, and the swelling and pain along with HEAT at the site of injection that is not subsiding, then you pretty much can surmise that you have yourself an abscess.

By finding the original spot that you injected and pressing down with a finger tip, it should be soft and boggy, there should be a finger indentation left in the skin, and there may also be a slight discolouration to the area.

So what is needed to fix this, and reverse this as soon as possible so that the least amount of damage is done to your muscle?

You need to get the infection out as soon as possible. Treating this with straight antibiotics may not quickly kill off the infection as the area will have been sealed off by the body so that the bacteria cannot utilize the vascular system to spread. In that same token, the antibiotics may not be effectively delivered in a fast enough time period to quickly kill off the infection, putting a halt to the infection’s progression.

Aspiration is a necessity and should be done as soon as you have confirmed that it is indeed an infection.

By inserting an needle syringe combo directly into the site in the exact path that your original injection took, and using a large gauge needle – 18 or even larger 16 gauge needle, (make sure to swab really well before hand, and have sterile gauze to cover the site following) insert the needle with the syringe empty, and once you have inserted it an 1/8 inch or so begin to aspirate as you slowly sink the needle in depth. You will know when you hit the abscess, as you will quickly suck up a small quantity of fluid that will resemble bloody, but purulent (yellow tinge to it) puss and some remnants of the injection fluid, whether it was suspension or oil. Expect to aspirate at least as much as you injected and possible ½ mL more, however sometimes you won’t find anything, and it usually is because you either aspirated too early – i.e. you didn’t wait until the third or 4th day, or it isn’t an infection, or you just plain missed the site which really is hard to do.

If you don’t aspirate, you could end up with an ugly hole in your muscle.
Physicians are reluctant to aspirate thinking that they will give the antibiotics a chance to do the trick rather than spending the extra time to pull out the infection. Many times they leave it up to the patient to decide this matter, and will order a course or oral antibiotics.
The problem is, a lot of times the oral antibiotics will not work, and the patient will have to come back for IV therapy, and at this time aspiration may not be an option –but rather surgical debridement– because the abscess has formed a large hole.

What will work, and works best with minimal harm is rapid diagnosis of the problem by the user at home, and rapid treatment. That means drawing out the infection, and going to the emergency department. You can bring the syringe with you to show the contents to the Nurse, and physician. It will certainly get you seen quicker. The doctor at that point will likely prescribe an oral antibiotic called Keflex (cephalaxen) This is a relatively side effect free medication that will work well and quickly if you have drawn out the infection. It will work poorly If you do not get the abscess drained.

[Sicko]

Ok now that we are back on track and know your stats,

Make sure you are using a needle long enought to reach deep into the gluteal muscle, a 1.5" is generally the preffered length. If the needle is not sunk deep enough into the muscle or you use it like a sewing machine ( no insult intended) or inject to rapidly this can cause the compound to either be injected into or in the case of the too rapidly technique, leak into the subcutaneous layer causing burning and itching depending on the mixture and quantity injected subq.

Welcome aboard and realize lots here do joke around (not about what action to take, that is never wise) by the way I just remembered I have copied into MS "Word" a great post on diagnosing injection pain, see below.

This was posted in 2008 by Canadream, it is a very well written concise article on diagnosing injection problems and how to deal with them (although when needle aspiration is the proper course of action as opposed to incision is a touchy subject) other than that its all good IMHO.

INJECTION PAIN: Diagnosing a problem and what to do!

Here is a scenario that I read all too often on the boards:


A user has injected and a day later is having lots of pain and swelling to his injection site.

There are normally 3 reasons why this would occur.

The first reason is that the injectable used contained too much preservative such as benzyl alcohol which will cause tissue damage, and stimulate a local inflammatory response. The pain from this can be moderate and go away in a few days, or it can be severe and take almost a week to subside. It really depends on how much BA was in the solution injected and how much volume was injected. Normally the pain and inflammation can be controlled with Ice and anti-inflammatory such as Advil and after about the 3rd day, the user should notice a gradual subsiding of the symptoms.

The site should be swollen, and slightly red, but that swelling should be inside the muscle, and should begin to dissipate on the third day along with the pain. This is a slow progression though and could take as long as a week to ten days to fully go away, the key is it will slowly get better, not worse or stay the same.

The 2nd scenario is if you hit the lymphatic system with one of your injections.

The lymphatic system is a network of vessels that flow through your body. It is as extensive as your vascular system, and contains nodes at different parts are like storage depots or garrisons where White cells can accumulate for action.
The important thing to note is that the odds of coming into contact with the lymphatic system, as long as you stick to the conventionally recommended sites of IM injection are very small.
(The recommended sites are deltoids, ventogluteal (side of hip/ buttocks) , dorsal gluteus (back of buttocks top outer corner), vastus lateralis ( abductor lateral (outer side) of quadriceps).

But if you start doing ‘site’ injections, such as pectorals, biceps, inner quads etc. then you run much higher risk of hitting lymphatic tissue and disruption of ducts.

Lymphatic disruption is caused when you puncture into the area. Since it is fluid, but not blood, it has no means of initial clotting so the fluid will continue to flow into surrounding areas causing extreme localized swelling and pain. The swelling will then track up wards along the lymphatic system. The edema that is caused will also include surface edema – i.e. if you indent the area with your finger, the finger mark will remain. That is called ‘pitting edema’.

This edema comes on strong and fast, by the following day it is at its worst. There is normally no redness or ‘heat’ at the site, just swelling and pain. Ice and Advil can be helpful, but it usually takes a week for the swelling to dissipate, and for up to 10 days before you can resume training that body part, as the swelling can be so bad, it will limit your range of motion and flexibility in the muscle injected.

The Keys to note are that this usually occurs in an unconventional injection site, and there the swelling comes on quickly, and then doesn’t get worse. There is very little redness, and heat at the site. The site will have pitting edema, where as injection caused by too much BA has no pitting edema.

The third scenario is an injection site infection.

An infection can be caused by a few different factors but key is that you have introduced a bacterium into your muscle that doesn’t belong there, and is now invading your body.

This can be because what you injected was contaminated, because the needle you used was contaminated, or simply you just didn’t swab well enough either on the vial or your injection site.

The first thing that happens when you inject some gear is that the bacterium will cause a localized inflammatory response. That includes swelling, and redness, and heat to the area, very similar to if you had injected gear with a high BA content. What follows is that the infection will progress, and your body’s immune system will put in steps to defend itself.
Ice and Advil may help the pain, and temporarily blunt the swelling, but if you withdraw the therapy, the swelling continues to get worse. By the third day you will notice pitting edema to the area, unlike the lymphatic caused edema that occurs earlier then the third day.
Inside, the body will be attempting to contain the infection by forming a barrier around the infected area which is called a cyst. If the body is successful the infection can remained contained in that pocket and the body will slowly fight it. However the cyst can continue to grow in size taking up more and more of the muscle belly as cyst formation is not a guarantee that the body is able to kill the infection; it is just a way of slowing its spread.
Without cyst formation, the infection will reach the blood stream and that is when systemic symptoms will start occurring such as high fever, and limb swelling – and a gradual progression to systemic septic shock. We won’t get into this here other than to say, if you felt a fever coming on, then the only place you should be worrying about getting to is the closets Emergency department, as your life could literally be in peril. Once septic shock begins, if it is not caught soon enough it becomes impossible to stop the process regardless of how young and healthy you are; you will die.

So, back to the beginning, if it is the 3rd day, and you are beginning to develop the symptoms I discussed – the pitting edema, and the swelling and pain along with HEAT at the site of injection that is not subsiding, then you pretty much can surmise that you have yourself an abscess.

By finding the original spot that you injected and pressing down with a finger tip, it should be soft and boggy, there should be a finger indentation left in the skin, and there may also be a slight discolouration to the area.

So what is needed to fix this, and reverse this as soon as possible so that the least amount of damage is done to your muscle?

You need to get the infection out as soon as possible. Treating this with straight antibiotics may not quickly kill off the infection as the area will have been sealed off by the body so that the bacteria cannot utilize the vascular system to spread. In that same token, the antibiotics may not be effectively delivered in a fast enough time period to quickly kill off the infection, putting a halt to the infection’s progression.

Aspiration is a necessity and should be done as soon as you have confirmed that it is indeed an infection.

By inserting an needle syringe combo directly into the site in the exact path that your original injection took, and using a large gauge needle – 18 or even larger 16 gauge needle, (make sure to swab really well before hand, and have sterile gauze to cover the site following) insert the needle with the syringe empty, and once you have inserted it an 1/8 inch or so begin to aspirate as you slowly sink the needle in depth. You will know when you hit the abscess, as you will quickly suck up a small quantity of fluid that will resemble bloody, but purulent (yellow tinge to it) puss and some remnants of the injection fluid, whether it was suspension or oil. Expect to aspirate at least as much as you injected and possible ½ mL more, however sometimes you won’t find anything, and it usually is because you either aspirated too early – i.e. you didn’t wait until the third or 4th day, or it isn’t an infection, or you just plain missed the site which really is hard to do.

If you don’t aspirate, you could end up with an ugly hole in your muscle.
Physicians are reluctant to aspirate thinking that they will give the antibiotics a chance to do the trick rather than spending the extra time to pull out the infection. Many times they leave it up to the patient to decide this matter, and will order a course or oral antibiotics.
The problem is, a lot of times the oral antibiotics will not work, and the patient will have to come back for IV therapy, and at this time aspiration may not be an option –but rather surgical debridement– because the abscess has formed a large hole.

What will work, and works best with minimal harm is rapid diagnosis of the problem by the user at home, and rapid treatment. That means drawing out the infection, and going to the emergency department. You can bring the syringe with you to show the contents to the Nurse, and physician. It will certainly get you seen quicker. The doctor at that point will likely prescribe an oral antibiotic called Keflex (cephalaxen) This is a relatively side effect free medication that will work well and quickly if you have drawn out the infection. It will work poorly If you do not get the abscess drained.

Nice info FFM..

[marxbass]

thanks buddy... that was helpfull... I'll keep that for reference.

[gym_junki]

I understand the idea guys,the only reason I said this because if you check into icemans posts he was giving another noob direct cycle advice without any kind of stats and was asked not to,obviously its not sinking in how the forem likes to operate.I am not one of those guys that screams stats for any old question,just trying to show a bad habit forming,one that you both dont condone as far as your posts state on a regular basis.
But hey, thanks for looking out for the new guys...
Notice how my post starts out with "STILL giving out cycle advice to noobs with no stats."

your ok mate I understand where ur coming from. I just can't believe the turn this thread took

[gym_junki]

And don't stress about it mate it's nothing to worry about I had it happen to me from prop once and it was doing my head in, that post above is excellent go by it and I usually try and shower b4 a shot I'll be suppressed how much of a difference it might make. Good luck