The Myth of Keepable Gains

[brad1986]

How much gear do you think this guy took along with hgh? He must have even had amazing genetics too. What was the result when he quit?

wow...wtf!! Looks like this answers the question.... just hope that 2009 pic isnt his "Genetic Potential" lol

[5x10]

It doesn't matter if you were trained by arnold himself. Bodybuilding has alot to do with genetics some can look at the weights and grow some work twice as hard and find that the mass isn't any were near their training partner thats life...

It sounds good though that you have dedicated alot of time and effort....But have a read about muscle maturity and read some about the guys that have plugged away for 20 odd years and the gains that made later in life... maybe bodybuilding isnt for you...

The whole threads negative on the gear on football players playing at top level that did one cycle of steriod therapy and made awesome gains and now they play professionally after one cycle...what am saying knowledge is power...plenty of athletics that perform at a professional level have had one cycle to get them to the next level and competed and improved tremendously...

like brian cushing?
once he gets caught using, his #s drop substaintially
why was this? shouldnt he be able to keep the explosiveness and speed that he had when he was on?

im sure there are some genetic freaks that might be able to keep some gains, but for the avg everyday joe, i think its a false expectation

and hopefully im not coming across as negative, i like steroids , just dont think i can keep the gains from manipulating my hormones
kind of like me running a 10 week cycle of meth, and expecting to be more energetic once the cycle is over

[Ashop]

Most people fail to keep gains because they get lazy and dont continue to eat or train as hard when they come off cycle
and many fail to even do a proper PCT.

[TOkidd]

Man, so many people are so way over the top with their juice intake, stacking Test and Tren combined with HGH and Insulin , and doing these kinds of cycles half the year or more. For people like this, of course it's absolutely impossible to keep gains, because our bodies are being manipulated far too much, and the muscle that results is not natural for most people's genetic makeup and, as a result, temporary. I know a guy who did the most ridiculous stacks of gear, took HGH and insulin, and ended up needing to go on long-term hormone replacement therapy with his doc because his body simply stopped producing adequate amounts of testosterone . Nowadays, he's a normal-sized guy with above-average strength, but all those thousands of dollars spent, hours in the gym, possible damage done to his body for essentially very little permanent gains.

On the other hand, I know people who have mostly worked out without gear, done the odd mild cycle, and kept most of their gains post-cycle as long as they kept lifting. For myself, I've only done one cycle, and that was in 2002 when I was 22. I took 400 mg/ week of Deca of 10 weeks, had good gains of strength and lean muscle, and kept it all afterwards. Even when I stopped lifting, I kept the muscle, but lost the strength. Even to this day, now that I'm back in the game, I still have the muscle I gained on that Deca cycle.

So I think the bottom line is, mild, occasional cycles can result in mostly keepable gains. But if you're juicing hardcore, half the year, you'll probably lose much of your gains even if not all in time.

Just my opinion

TOkidd

[kleaver]

no... aas changes the level of hormones in your body. the type of training: percentage of 1rm you lift, volume (reps and sets) will determine how your muscles respond. to make a blanket statement (and i'm generalizing, so don't flame me for this) anywhere from 1rm-6rm will produce power and resulting hyperplasia... 8-12rm will produce hypertrophy and grow size of the individual muscle cell... and anythign over 15reps will demand so much oxygen that you are using different energy sources, and will produce a vascularizing effect on the muscles (a demand for O2 results in more capillaries to deliver the O2).

HGH and aas are different chemicals, which do different things in the body... that being said, aas can achieve any of the three goals mentioned above... muscle strength, muscle size, or muscle endurance

[big_ron]

I kept a lot of my gains through my last cycle while running hgh

How do you guys afford all this hgh!!!

Maybe its just in aus but its sooo expensive!

[gymnerd]

How do you guys afford all this hgh!!!

Maybe its just in aus but its sooo expensive!

Yeah, its expensive but thats just stooopid damn

[big_ron]

I would like to know the price diff in the US but we cant talk prices Sum1 PM me

[stevey_6t9]

Everything i've read suggests that AAS only serves to increase the size of a muscle cell and that only HGH can grow new muscle cells!

satellite cells are dormant muscle cells that once activated can fuse into a existing muscle cell (hypertrophy) or form new fibres (hyperplasia) by proliferating into myoblasts which results in new muscle cells... But then again satellite cells are activated in response to a stress stimulus also, so regardless if your on test or GH, resistance training can result in the both (just not as fast). So AAS can result in hyperplasia.

[vtach12]

So the people on TRT will keep most of their gains after a blast as long as the cruise since there is no need for PCT?

[dec11]

So the people on TRT will keep most of their gains after a blast as long as the cruise since there is no need for PCT?

much better chance of it

[layeazy]

like brian cushing?
once he gets caught using, his #s drop substaintially
why was this? shouldnt he be able to keep the explosiveness and speed that he had when he was on?

im sure there are some genetic freaks that might be able to keep some gains, but for the avg everyday joe, i think its a false expectation

and hopefully im not coming across as negative, i like steroids , just dont think i can keep the gains from manipulating my hormones
kind of like me running a 10 week cycle of meth, and expecting to be more energetic once the cycle is over

Yeah but that photos not really a great indication because we dont know what or how much he was using. Then the post up a now pic where he is weedy it just seems that he stopped eveything even training and thats what can happen. But most of the pros nowadays are trt guys that still train alot. But there are plenty more success stories than there are ppl with lack on knowledge in nutrition and training to make the expected gains.

Keeping the gains has alot to do with pct and to continue training throughout pct...

[5x10]

Keeping the gains has alot to do with pct and to continue training throughout pct...

i have to disagree
how do you expect to keep something that took a drug to obtain?
how do you expect to keep the high nitrogen levels?
how do you keep your strength up, which in turn will keep your muscles larger?
pct? pct will try to get you to normal hormonal levels , not the elevated hormones it took to obatin the new gains
and the longer you stay off, the more likely it is that you will go back to what you were pre cycle, as the only thing you change when you cycle is the hormones

the same can be said for diet, by best dieting was in college when i could dedicate myself to it
i was my strongest then, even stronger than i am now

[Pac Man]

Well the answer is obvious, just never stop!
I'm on peps right now, off cycle But seem to be maintaining. Bout to toss in some LR3 to the mix so maybe I'll even gain.
I'm hoping that I am able to keep 50% of my gains total by the next cycle, I believe I can keep more but time will tell.

[gymnerd]

i have to disagree
how do you expect to keep something that took a drug to obtain?
how do you expect to keep the high nitrogen levels?
how do you keep your strength up, which in turn will keep your muscles larger?
pct? pct will try to get you to normal hormonal levels , not the elevated hormones it took to obatin the new gains
and the longer you stay off, the more likely it is that you will go back to what you were pre cycle, as the only thing you change when you cycle is the hormones

the same can be said for diet, by best dieting was in college when i could dedicate myself to it
i was my strongest then, even stronger than i am now

This says it exactly. If you could keep it all you would not need the drugs to begin with and could have done it naturally. Guys who keep alot of there gains in my guess are prolly not p[ast there genetic potential and there body is able to keep them better.

[PK-V]

A lot of people around here are talking about "making the weight your own" in relation to gaining extra size when on. Such as staying on a longer cycle to allow you body adapt to the size and have a better chance to hold onto the weight when you come off.

If you plan on coming off this is a bullshit idea, the longer you stay on the bigger the risk of effecting your HPG axis.

Your body can easily adapt to the new size you have when your on assuming you are feeding your body adequate calories.

When you come off your body is going to shed muscle regardless of the fact that your body had adapted to the new size when you were on. When you come off you are now forcing your body to readopt the new environment, which is a compromised HPG axis resulting in a drop in circulating testosterone .

Get on, BLAST and get the hell out quickly!

Unfortunately the reality of the situation is that TRT is the only form of productive AAS administration.

In relation to using before your genetic limit, stupid argument. To many variables to consider.

that could be quite true, afew cycles could have been enough to screw mine up, when i look back now i think i could have been suffering low test for along time, unexplained bouts of depression etc.

i think the question is to general to answer clearly. there have also been pros's who have shrank back to nothing after discontinuing, one in particular who someone posted a before and after pic quite recently, cant rem who it was though.
im basing it on what ive seen 1st hand of mates etc who have shrank back everytime but then what they did after cycles could have a bearing. i still think 90% keep very little of what they gain on cycle, there are some freaks around though

If a pro stopped cold turkey he would shrink to the size of a little boy

Any pro with half a brain would get on a reasonable dose or TRT

A good example is Dorian, he knows what he's doing








I fear for the likes of Ronnie who seems to ignore the fact that his time is up to move on and continues to use.

I hope for his sake it doesn't put him in an early grave.

[MR10X]

i have to disagree
how do you expect to keep something that took a drug to obtain?
how do you expect to keep the high nitrogen levels?
how do you keep your strength up, which in turn will keep your muscles larger?
pct? pct will try to get you to normal hormonal levels , not the elevated hormones it took to obatin the new gains
and the longer you stay off, the more likely it is that you will go back to what you were pre cycle, as the only thing you change when you cycle is the hormones

the same can be said for diet, by best dieting was in college when i could dedicate myself to it
i was my strongest then, even stronger than i am now

I agree,even if you trained and ate the same as you did while on cycle,you wont have the same muscle mass as you do while on. If you think you can look the same off cycle as on cycle your dreaming.You need to cycle your training just like you cycle your juice to keep making gains.

[JohnnyVegas]

Damn, I bet Dorian likes being able to wear normal clothing again. He looks good smaller. Healthy.

[UrbanLegend]

Excellent thread.

I have this question to pose now: If steroids were just used for dieting down, i.e., keeping muscle mass while on an extended diet or something, would your results still be gone a few months after the cycle? Even if you gained some muscle while on cycle, your whole point was to keep muscle and get leaner, so I would think you could keep this leaner state w/ normal muscle mass maintained after your cycle was over. You may not keep the muscles that were induced purely by the cycle, but you could keep the muscle you had before, if that makes sense.

I don't think too many bodybuilders just use the juice for keeping muscle, but to me, that seems more theoretically solid than expecting to keep gains from a cycle a year later without gear.

[kelevra]

I figure someone has said this in the thread somewhere, but gains are not keep able past genetic limits. Or they are very very minimal. GH will aid in keep able tissue past genetic limits however once gear is discontinued the hormones will not be there to support the additional tissue.
The argument may come from the many 165 pounders on here who cycle and only loose a few pounds during PCT.

[gymnerd]

Damn, I bet Dorian likes being able to wear normal clothing again. He looks good smaller. Healthy.

And he is still pretty damn big too. My favorite BB ever right there

[dirtysouth]

bump, great thread. keep it going

[Twist]

Excellent thread.

I have this question to pose now: If steroids were just used for dieting down, i.e., keeping muscle mass while on an extended diet or something, would your results still be gone a few months after the cycle? Even if you gained some muscle while on cycle, your whole point was to keep muscle and get leaner, so I would think you could keep this leaner state w/ normal muscle mass maintained after your cycle was over. You may not keep the muscles that were induced purely by the cycle, but you could keep the muscle you had before, if that makes sense.

I don't think too many bodybuilders just use the juice for keeping muscle, but to me, that seems more theoretically solid than expecting to keep gains from a cycle a year later without gear.

You could keep muscle while shedding fat. That is a great use, especially for bodybuilders who have to get to super low bf levels without dropping mass. However, you have to factor in a couple things.
1. If you were not loosing weight because your diet or training is off, then you will gain right back to where you started (quickly)
2. PCT is a very easy time to gain fat. Hormones are messed up and you have to overeat in order to keep muscle mass. This means fat gain.
3. What if you don't go back to normal levels after pct? If this is the case (often), then you will have a harder time cutting FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

[NattyGraham]

Lets say your genetic potential is 240lbs, and your 220, you do a cycle and go to 235, 230 when you lose some water weight, so 10lbs lean muscle gained. Since your still just below your natty limit, could you not keep the 10lbs lean mass gained naturally with continued diet and trianing?