Keeping your gains after a cycle.

[mani_bono]

think of it logically, if you keep all of these silly claims of 15-20lbs each cycle and run 3 cycles a year, in three years thats gona be a gain of up to 180lbs, its bullshit and thats the truth whether any of the noobs wanna face up to it or not. thats were this 'oh, steroids will make me massive' BS comes from. very little muscle is built and its a long expensive waiting game.

the only way to keep gains is by staying on, and we all know the price for that, and even that is just holding onto a surplus of water
water on, water off

100% agree, I experienced loosing muscles on PCT and it sucks. it has nothing to do with diet/training/rest. your body is in a catabolic state and you will loose muscle and worst of all you will not make any progress ...
I've decided to go with Slingshot system since I want to compete. I found the slingshot (http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...t-to-read-this!) the only no BS approach in this forum. all the other recommendations sucks big time!
you have to stay on since building muscle is a time consuming and slow process, 8 weeks or 12 weeks will not build any solid muscle IMO. you have to stay on and get all the help you can for as long as you can.

I don't know about genetic freaks but I know cycling and PCT doesn't work, either I have to forget about steroids or I have to stay on for very long time and give time to my body to stay in an anabolic state all the time and build solid muscles. and you really have to be crazy about bodybuilding to do this, it have a big price to pay ...

[lovbyts]

wow, are you for real ? wear have i suggested to anyone that what i have done is ok and correct.im talking about my own personal experiences plain and simple.

Yes Im very for real and although you did not suggest anyone to try it posting it up for inexperienced newbies is the next best thing because most dont bother to read the whole thread or in-between the lines. It's just one of our ways to not put out misinformation or at least to try to keep the board as safe as possible. Even if it worked for you, you had no problems it's commonly known to us who have been around a while that it's hazardous and not recommended, OK?

im riddled with injury too and tried the therapeutic deca thing with my trt, its BS and did nothing.

my trt is self imposed although my doc now knows about and monitors me she isnt willing to prescribe it to me and has never dealt with this kinda thing before (small town irish practice)

Sounds about the same as my experience with deca.

[MR10X]

^^ Agreed.

Some n00d will come here, read that and think 'Why do I need to do PCT'.

Than weeks later no doubt, will be posting up a thread about his deca d!ck lol

Back in the early 80's there was no such thing as PCT,people just quit taking steroids and let their system normalize...Me included and i am not on TRT now...Decca was one of the most used steroid at the time and i never heard of people having issues like people now. The power lifters stayed on cycle for meets for 12 weeks or more also.

[choker28]

Back in the early 80's there was no such thing as PCT,people just quit taking steroids and let their system normalize...Me included and i am not on TRT now...Decca was one of the most used steroid at the time and i never heard of people having issues like people now. The power lifters stayed on cycle for meets for 12 weeks or more also.

someone with with a alternative view nice to see other opinions and thoughts

[MR10X]

Its not really and opinion,its a fact.......Half the stuff you read here is bullshit...having said that i still recomend PCT,its cheap and will get you normalized quicker..

[dec11]

Its not really and opinion,its a fact.......Half the stuff you read here is bullshit...having said that i still recomend PCT,its cheap and will get you normalized quicker..

oh really, its BS but yet you recommend it anyway?

[MR10X]

I never said PCT was bullshit,i said we just didnt do it back then and we didnt have any problems.its the other stuff that bullshit. I do it now and i am not on TRT.

[dec11]

I never said PCT was bullshit,i said we just didnt do it back then and we didnt have any problems.its the other stuff that bullshit. I do it now and i am not on TRT.

yep and i know another guy just like you, you both are lucky, i also can think of 8 guys who arent, the vast over whelming majority arent lucky that way

[PitMaster]

Seems like the more I read the more pct worries the shit out of me. Working hard for gains and to just lose them during your pct seems the norm. Sounds like a big roller coaster to me to cycle a couple times a year. All this leading me more towards considering a self prescribed trt dose to not neccessarily get bigger, but to maintain. Blast every once in a while if I so chose.

Pct coming soon for me and be honest, not looking forward to it. I need to think more on this.

[Hazard]

jesus christ children

IDC if you ran deca for 10 weeks or 100 weeks..... i don't care if you have perma-limp dick or you've got a veiny fvckin lighting rod...... There's no "official" correct way to run steroids . Studies are very far and few and a lot of this information is passed on through personal experience. What works for one may not work for another...... with that said...... It is my opinion that running a PCT after your cycle will give you a MUCH better chance of recovering than not runing one.

Regarding the original question...... Chuck had the best post..... once you hit your genetic potential it will be very very difficlt to hold onto the extra weight for long periods of time. Your body can only hold so much mass without the added help from hormones. Hell.... I believe theres a point (pro level) where TRT doses of testosterone wont be enough to hold all that mass.

Now..... let us all get back to beating our kids..... just like the media likes to think

~Haz~

[dec11]

jesus christ children

IDC if you ran deca for 10 weeks or 100 weeks..... i don't care if you have perma-limp dick or you've got a veiny fvckin lighting rod...... There's no "official" correct way to run steroids . Studies are very far and few and a lot of this information is passed on through personal experience. What works for one may not work for another...... with that said...... It is my opinion that running a PCT after your cycle will give you a MUCH better chance of recovering than not runing one.

Regarding the original question...... Chuck had the best post..... once you hit your genetic potential it will be very very difficlt to hold onto the extra weight for long periods of time. Your body can only hold so much mass without the added help from hormones. Hell.... I believe theres a point (pro level) where TRT doses of testosterone wont be enough to hold all that mass.

Now..... let us all get back to beating our kids..... just like the media likes to think

~Haz~

lmao

[choker28]

this is a serious question so please dont reply with stupid comments,so what are the down sides of not doing a pct ?.Is the main concern getting the natural production of your own test levels back ?

[Hazard]

this is a serious question so please dont reply with stupid comments,so what are the down sides of not doing a pct ?.Is the main concern getting the natural production of your own test levels back ?

It helps jumpstart your bodies testosterone production, helps get those testes working to minimize the chance of lower sperm count or god forbid becomming sterile (unlikely IMO) - Nolva also helps cholesterol levels which a lot of steroids like deca destroy.

It also allows you an advantage in maintaining your gains..... and it gives one peace of mind. Regardless though..... bloodwork should be done POST pct to see if you are back to normal levels. Whether or not you do a PCT..... you can't know if you are recovered without the bloodwork after.

~Haz~

[choker28]

It helps jumpstart your bodies testosterone production, helps get those testes working to minimize the chance of lower sperm count or god forbid becomming sterile (unlikely IMO) - Nolva also helps cholesterol levels which a lot of steroids like deca destroy.

It also allows you an advantage in maintaining your gains..... and it gives one peace of mind. Regardless though..... bloodwork should be done POST pct to see if you are back to normal levels. Whether or not you do a PCT..... you can't know if you are recovered without the bloodwork after.

~Haz~

ok thanks im starting to get the picture.What about if your say 46 and your not to concerned about libido and becoming sterile.Are there any other serious health issues.and does Deca affect HDL or LDL ?

[Hazard]

ok thanks im starting to get the picture.What about if your say 46 and your not to concerned about libido and becoming sterile.Are there any other serious health issues.and does Deca affect HDL or LDL ?

I know it lowers HDL..... it's affect on LDL I'm unsure of at the moment. For someone in their mid to lat 40's who isn't concerned about the pecker..... it wont be much of a problem then. It does help with joint discomfort and it does have good benefits obviously..... it's just a real killer to the meat and veggies down below. There are issues with immuno-supression afterwards but that comes with a lot of steroids imo.

I ran it alone before I found this site and it gave me issues. Prior to running it I could go 4 times a night..... While using it I had ED issues and when I came off it took a while for it to start working again. Once it did..... i kissed the 4 times a night thing goodbye and said hello to my bed after the 1st one LOL! 19nors are notoriously harder to recover from usually.....

~Haz~

[schering]

jesus christ children

IDC if you ran deca for 10 weeks or 100 weeks..... i don't care if you have perma-limp dick or you've got a veiny fvckin lighting rod...... There's no "official" correct way to run steroids . Studies are very far and few and a lot of this information is passed on through personal experience. What works for one may not work for another...... with that said...... It is my opinion that running a PCT after your cycle will give you a MUCH better chance of recovering than not runing one.

Regarding the original question...... Chuck had the best post..... once you hit your genetic potential it will be very very difficlt to hold onto the extra weight for long periods of time. Your body can only hold so much mass without the added help from hormones. Hell.... I believe theres a point (pro level) where TRT doses of testosterone wont be enough to hold all that mass.

Now..... let us all get back to beating our kids..... just like the media likes to think

~Haz~

Spot on chap, spot on.

[choker28]

I know it lowers HDL..... it's affect on LDL I'm unsure of at the moment. For someone in their mid to lat 40's who isn't concerned about the pecker..... it wont be much of a problem then. It does help with joint discomfort and it does have good benefits obviously..... it's just a real killer to the meat and veggies down below. There are issues with immuno-supression afterwards but that comes with a lot of steroids imo.

I ran it alone before I found this site and it gave me issues. Prior to running it I could go 4 times a night..... While using it I had ED issues and when I came off it took a while for it to start working again. Once it did..... i kissed the 4 times a night thing goodbye and said hello to my bed after the 1st one LOL! 19nors are notoriously harder to recover from usually.....

~Haz~

Well that was the sole purpose for me (joint problems)i did not seem to suffer any sides, my libido is fine (was never 4 times a night ever lol) I only did 100 mg once a week for 12 weeks i gained 14 lb and still holding it did no pct hence the questions. Been of now 5 weeks waiting another month then gonna try test for my second course only 125 mg once a week properly gonna stay on it permanently

[Hazard]

Well that was the sole purpose for me (joint problems)i did not seem to suffer any sides, my libido is fine (was never 4 times a night ever lol) I only did 100 mg once a week for 12 weeks i gained 14 lb and still holding it did no pct hence the questions. Been of now 5 weeks waiting another month then gonna try test for my second course only 125 mg once a week properly gonna stay on it permanently

Let me just say i wasn't going at it 4 times a nite consistantly LMAO but there isn't a snowballs chance in hell the wife is gettin it more than once anymore..... not that she even cares

You should goto your doc and tell him you feel more tired lately..... just feel unmotivated..... and you want your testosterone levels checked because you've seen the commercials all over the television. Your insurance will pick it up and the doc can also check your cholesterol levels and liver enzymes. It doesn't hurt to have a good base of bloodwork before you run anything else..... plus you'll know where your testosterone levels are truely at.

For hrt purposes..... 150mg's a week is about spot on. My father is on HRT and thats the new regiment he was prescribed. It should have you around the upper end of natural levels. Also.... if you need HRT - look into your insurance and the coverage. My fathers picks his up and barely pays anything for his test.

good luck,
~Haz~

[choker28]

Let me just say i wasn't going at it 4 times a nite consistantly LMAO but there isn't a snowballs chance in hell the wife is gettin it more than once anymore..... not that she even cares

You should goto your doc and tell him you feel more tired lately..... just feel unmotivated..... and you want your testosterone levels checked because you've seen the commercials all over the television. Your insurance will pick it up and the doc can also check your cholesterol levels and liver enzymes. It doesn't hurt to have a good base of bloodwork before you run anything else..... plus you'll know where your testosterone levels are truely at.

For hrt purposes..... 150mg's a week is about spot on. My father is on HRT and thats the new regiment he was prescribed. It should have you around the upper end of natural levels. Also.... if you need HRT - look into your insurance and the coverage. My fathers picks his up and barely pays anything for his test.

good luck,
~Haz~

im in the uk the doctors here are just not interested ive tried the tired and no sex routine she just said my test levels would be fine,but i have had a full blood works done including LVT and cholesterol,not test levels though and every thing was fine.on the plus side test is so cheap here
at my age i think trt is the way forward to help keep my training going

[Hazard]

im in the uk the doctors here are just not interested ive tried the tired and no sex routine she just said my test levels would be fine,but i have had a full blood works done including LVT and cholesterol,not test levels though and every thing was fine.on the plus side test is so cheap here £..... a vile
at my age i think trt is the way forward to help keep my training going

ohhh gotcha - yea i've heard twice now that the UK is a bit of a pain with trt. Good luck mate - it's your choice.

Just edit out the price if you can.... rules is rules

~Haz~

[slimshady01]

I agree ,the whole cycle +pct = time off = yoyo!

The only way most will keep gains is pretty much Rons Slingshot. its also staying on "almost" year round which a lot will have a problem with. Also it works better for those already on TRT and can skip PCT during the 4-6 week break 2x a year as Ronnie says!

im doing slingshot now, i lost almost all my gains during PCT then time off. Im 35 and plan on being on TRT anyway so im giving it a shot.

The reason im choosing TRT for those wondering is because I have always had low T and very Low Free T. My sex drive has always been shit. Since ive been on test its basically saved my marriage. My wife gets annoyed at how much sex I want where before i could go months and care less.

[rockinred]

So this is what this board has come to? No more advice on PCT. Steroids are temporary gains lost after you come off and Ronnie's training method is the only way to keep gains?? I remember when Ronnie first came on here and he is a great guy with a big heart and great training ideas... but come on people?

Does anyone here believe in the science behind anabolics? What about protein synthesis, increase metabolism, etc... all this has gone by the way side?

I see more people lose all the work due to going back to eating piss poor, working out with the same ol little weight, and eating the same as a 10 year old boy. Then they look at steroids like it was a big waste of time and I shake my head inside and see their ways and want to say something but just don't. PCT is not proven fact, but it definetly can help. But the gains made running anabolics are real although holding on to the muscle gains is another story. Takes discipline and hard work and diet.

There is hope friends, but there are no miracle pills. Let's keep it on track here. The idea of running Deca only is pretty silly. I see silly shit all the time.... looking back on history and saying, they did this or that without trying to learn something or improve the science is just looking for reasons to do things.

Keep hard work and pay your dues in the gym and you will continue to build on the base of your cycles. That's why we call them cycles.

[slimshady01]

So this is what this board has come to? No more advice on PCT. Steroids are temporary gains lost after you come off and Ronnie's training method is the only way to keep gains?? I remember when Ronnie first came on here and he is a great guy with a big heart and great training ideas... but come on people?

Does anyone here believe in the science behind anabolics? What about protein synthesis, increase metabolism, etc... all this has gone by the way side?

I see more people lose all the work due to going back to eating piss poor, working out with the same ol little weight, and eating the same as a 10 year old boy. Then they look at steroids like it was a big waste of time and I shake my head inside and see their ways and want to say something but just don't. PCT is not proven fact, but it definetly can help. But the gains made running anabolics are real although holding on to the muscle gains is another story. Takes discipline and hard work and diet.

There is hope friends, but there are no miracle pills. Let's keep it on track here. The idea of running Deca only is pretty silly. I see silly shit all the time.... looking back on history and saying, they did this or that without trying to learn something or improve the science is just looking for reasons to do things.

Keep hard work and pay your dues in the gym and you will continue to build on the base of your cycles. That's why we call them cycles.

If you are young and want to recover then yes do PCT, you will keep more gains doing PCT then not. And for health reasons im sure its a lot healthier doing the time on time off then staying on year round.

My buddy is 40 years old and is a genetic freak. He looks better then 90% of us here natural and on cycle he is a beast. I believe he runs just one cycle a year during the summer months to be absolutley ripped. Then come fall runs PCT and stays natural until the next summer.

IMO that is not a bad way of doing things if you are just doing it for vanity. He still looks beast in the winter but really good in the summer on cycle. If he loses some during his time off so what. Where he lives they get 6 feet of snow a month in the winter so he just bundles up, eats healthy and trains hard for preparation for the months that count.

[Exevious]

So this is what this board has come to? No more advice on PCT. Steroids are temporary gains lost after you come off and Ronnie's training method is the only way to keep gains?? I remember when Ronnie first came on here and he is a great guy with a big heart and great training ideas... but come on people?

Does anyone here believe in the science behind anabolics? What about protein synthesis, increase metabolism, etc... all this has gone by the way side?

I see more people lose all the work due to going back to eating piss poor, working out with the same ol little weight, and eating the same as a 10 year old boy. Then they look at steroids like it was a big waste of time and I shake my head inside and see their ways and want to say something but just don't. PCT is not proven fact, but it definetly can help. But the gains made running anabolics are real although holding on to the muscle gains is another story. Takes discipline and hard work and diet.

There is hope friends, but there are no miracle pills. Let's keep it on track here. The idea of running Deca only is pretty silly. I see silly shit all the time.... looking back on history and saying, they did this or that without trying to learn something or improve the science is just looking for reasons to do things.

Keep hard work and pay your dues in the gym and you will continue to build on the base of your cycles. That's why we call them cycles.

I agree 100%. Like we tell the under 25 crowd..... eat right, eat right, eat right.... and bust your ass in the gym. YOu gotta do this during pct and after.
How do you think the natty guys get large?? there are plenty that eat right and bust thier ass.... The discipline has to be maintained during cycle, durning pct, and after cycle... it just the after cycle depression phucks alot of guys up... from what I can figure out anyway

[Far from massive]

I think one thing a lot of people forget is that very few people are at their true genetic potential, this requires a huge commitment to training and diet and years and years of work. My feelings based on what I have seen in the past 38 yrs both in my own experience and from observing those around me who lift for looks and power is that steroids are rarely used solely as a physiologic aid to help one surpass true natural limitations. The reason I feel this is important is because if you are someone who is in their late 20s- 40s and has been lifting semiseriously for a few years and goes ahead and does a cycle the sudden gains and feeling of wellbeing almost always result in an increased desire to gain or lift more, now these days with all the information at hand its easy to turn this into real knowlege and improve ones diet, workouts and sleep patterns by doing this it is very easy to keep at least half of the muscle gains seen on a short cycle (bloat is another story). Now back in the old days it was very easy to wind up coming off and without all the information on diet, PCT, and training the thing you were likely to do was to go back on way too soon to try to keep up the gains.

So the point I am trying to make is for the casual lifter its easy to keep gains seen during a cycle, now is it really keeping the gains if you alter your training and diet because of an increased desire for growth? Well I guess to be fair its not but still the point remains that many who start down this path and implement proper training and PCT, time off etc. will indeed see greater growth than their natural constituents, whether this is physiological or psychological is splitting hairs the point is that gains through cycling are often seen compared to those who do not cycle. So although there are certainly risks there are certainly gains to be seen also.

Ohh also to touch briefly on another point, gyno, lack of erections, and all these other problems that I constantly hear about these days rarely happened back in the old days and also they rarely happen to people from my age group who are now doing steroids 40s-50s. Its my feeling that there is a connection between a sedintary lifestyle or todays kids average diet or both that is causing so many problems from AAS usage but this is a topic for another thread ;-)

[MR10X]

this is a serious question so please dont reply with stupid comments,so what are the down sides of not doing a pct ?.Is the main concern getting the natural production of your own test levels back ?

The down side is your test level will have to get below normal (for you) before your body will try to produce test,and if you balls are shrunk up because they havnt been producing then you will be in a low test condition for a longer period of time.If you get your balls stimulated with HCG or clomid/nolvadex then your recovery will be quicker.You can do an effective PCT for around $100 or so depending on your sources.Also doing a cycle for more than 8 weeks will not produce much as far as new gains,8 weeks seems to be the average time for ASS to be effective. 3 8 week cycles is better than 2 12 week cycles for gains.Also 99% percent of the people never train hard enough to get to their so called natural limit,training correctly is just as important to continue making gains as is diet and steroids .You have to cycle your training to continue your gains,you cant just just train hard month after month and not reach a sticking point,you have to give your body a rest so it can recoup.....YOU HAVE TO CYCLE YOUR TRAINING....You can continue to make gains off steroids if you train right,maby not as much as you would will on steroids but you can gain and not just maintain.99% of the people will never reach their full potential......Far from massive is 100% correct,he has been around a long time also and seen what i have seen and is not just one of these 25 year old experts. In the 80's there were no steroid forums,we had to learn from experience.

[dec11]

I think one thing a lot of people forget is that very few people are at their true genetic potential, this requires a huge commitment to training and diet and years and years of work. My feelings based on what I have seen in the past 38 yrs both in my own experience and from observing those around me who lift for looks and power is that steroids are rarely used solely as a physiologic aid to help one surpass true natural limitations. The reason I feel this is important is because if you are someone who is in their late 20s- 40s and has been lifting semiseriously for a few years and goes ahead and does a cycle the sudden gains and feeling of wellbeing almost always result in an increased desire to gain or lift more, now these days with all the information at hand its easy to turn this into real knowlege and improve ones diet, workouts and sleep patterns by doing this it is very easy to keep at least half of the muscle gains seen on a short cycle (bloat is another story). Now back in the old days it was very easy to wind up coming off and without all the information on diet, PCT, and training the thing you were likely to do was to go back on way too soon to try to keep up the gains.

So the point I am trying to make is for the casual lifter its easy to keep gains seen during a cycle, now is it really keeping the gains if you alter your training and diet because of an increased desire for growth? Well I guess to be fair its not but still the point remains that many who start down this path and implement proper training and PCT, time off etc. will indeed see greater growth than their natural constituents, whether this is physiological or psychological is splitting hairs the point is that gains through cycling are often seen compared to those who do not cycle. So although there are certainly risks there are certainly gains to be seen also.

Ohh also to touch briefly on another point, gyno, lack of erections, and all these other problems that I constantly hear about these days rarely happened back in the old days and also they rarely happen to people from my age group who are now doing steroids 40s-50s. Its my feeling that there is a connection between a sedintary lifestyle or todays kids average diet or both that is causing so many problems from AAS usage but this is a topic for another thread ;-)

correct, i started AAS with a 16yrs natural powerlifting base and never got much higher than 200lbs and if i came off my trt i know id drop from 220lbs back down to that 200lbs, its happened before.

[choker28]

The down side is your test level will have to get below normal (for you) before your body will try to produce test,and if you balls are shrunk up because they havnt been producing then you will be in a low test condition for a longer period of time.If you get your balls stimulated with HCG or clomid/nolvadex then your recovery will be quicker.You can do an effective PCT for around $100 or so depending on your sources.Also doing a cycle for more than 8 weeks will not produce much as far as new gains,8 weeks seems to be the average time for ASS to be effective. 3 8 week cycles is better than 2 12 week cycles for gains.Also 99% percent of the people never train hard enough to get to their so called natural limit,training correctly is just as important to continue making gains as is diet and steroids.You have to cycle your training to continue your gains,you cant just just train hard month after month and not reach a sticking point,you have to give your body a rest so it can recoup.....YOU HAVE TO CYCLE YOUR TRAINING....You can continue to make gains off steroids if you train right,maby not as much as you would will on steroids but you can gain and not just maintain.99% of the people will never reach their full potential......Far from massive is 100% correct,he has been around a long time also and seen what i have seen and is not just one of these 25 year old experts. In the 80's there were no steroid forums,we had to learn from experience.

Reading through some of the drugs related to PCT, themselves carry quite a lot of different side effects .At my age I'm more than happy to let my test levels come back on their own accord.One compound in my body is more than enough for me

[MR10X]

Reading through some of the drugs related to PCT, themselves carry quite a lot of different side effects .At my age I'm more than happy to let my test levels come back on their own accord.One compound in my body is more than enough for me

I am 65 and feel i need to help my system to get back to my normal range. I just started doing PCT after my last cycle and feel like i held on to more of my gains than i did not doing PCT. I used 20mg Nolvadex and 50mg Clomid for 6 weeks an used 500iu EOD for 10 shots (5000iu bottle)of HCG 2 weeks before i started the Clomid and Nolvadex.