Starting Testosterone Questions. Help is Greatly Appreciated.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

Many people use this strategy of getting their minimum protein intake from anything then filling the rest of their calories with anything they want.

Attachment 118539 Attachment 118540

Both of these guys eat junk food/candy to fill out the rest of their calories as long as they track minimum protein, minimum fat(you dont even need to track that), and overall calories.

and if you think thats good then there is your problem. You cant just fill your calories with anything.
Again you dont know how to eat properly and you keep proving the point.

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 05:31 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

and if you think thats good then there is your problem. You cant just fill your calories with anything.
Again you dont know how to eat properly and you keep proving the point.

Sorry I don't buy into "broscience" when it's been proven countless times that it doesn't matter where you get your calories from as long as you reach minimum protein/fat and track calories based off of your LBM.

google IIFYM (If It Fits Your Macros) bodybuilding . com nutrition forum will teach you about it.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 05:34 PM

then go for it. I can see by your pics how well it works.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 05:36 PM

I'm done, you have googled stuff and you know all.
I see how well its working for you. And with a cycle it may look like you actually work out.

@ the broscience
I have alot more experience then you.
I have friends that compete at pro level bb's
i have fought mma and had to diet to cut weight
i've been in the fitness industry for over 12 years
im certified personal trainer and sports nutritionist

So yes there is still stuff i can learn, but trust me it isnt from googling something

**Nismomonster06** · 12-05-2011, 07:01 PM

after going through this thread im pretty convinced this kid jflanden doesnt know too much about what hes talking about.. maybe do some more reading instead of what im guessing youve done and thats just taking other peoples advice. just cause you quote a few sources doesnt mean you know what your taling about. im 25 and i been working out since high school. i graduated at 160 and im 220 at 6' tall. i was solid at 200 with ripped abs and 17inch arms before bulking again and i have been all natural my whole life. so your no where near where you could be. your so new to the game that you havnt even given your body a chance to adapt to working out. you just want everything handed to you quickly. shit doesnt work like that bro. stick to it for a few more years and if your diet is in check like you think it is than you should be just fine...

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 07:07 PM

It's funny because iv only been working out for a year started bulking 6-8 months ago while I was 132 pounds but because I'm not at what you think is a good weight even though iv made great progress, it automatically means my diet and workout needs work also I must obviously know nothing.

There are pro BBers on bodybuilding . Com that laugh at all of this broscience with dieting. You may know how to use roids but you have a lot to learn about how dieting actually works so stop ignorantly trashing other people's diet/workout, especially someone who just started and hasnt had enough time with all the perfect dieting and working out in the world to even be at what you think is ideal weight/bf%.

I'd like to know about good natural bodybuilding progress examples to you then what happened to them after cycling but you don't offer anything besides your macro'd response of "ur diet Nd workout need work bc I say so"

**gearbox** · 12-05-2011, 07:15 PM

educate yourself please...

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 07:36 PM

Originally Posted by gearbox

educate yourself please...

I am thats why I am here: to learn about cycling.

My diet is great. My workouts are great. My gains/progress has been great.

I'm here to learn about just cycling. It's just plain ignorant to say that someone has diet/workout problem based off of just height and weight, it's called being full of yourself because you don't know that person's starting weight or progress or personal goals or anything.

If I haven't made good progress then just tell me what your natural progress is then instead of just throwing out blind insults.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

It's funny because iv only been working out for a year started bulking 6-8 months ago while I was 132 pounds but because I'm not at what you think is a good weight even though iv made great progress, it automatically means my diet and workout needs work also I must obviously know nothing.

There are pro BBers on bodybuilding . Com that laugh at all of this broscience with dieting. You may know how to use roids but you have a lot to learn about how dieting actually works so stop ignorantly trashing other people's diet/workout, especially someone who just started and hasnt had enough time with all the perfect dieting and working out in the world to even be at what you think is ideal weight/bf%.

I'd like to know about good natural bodybuilding progress examples to you then what happened to them after cycling but you don't offer anything besides your macro'd response of "ur diet Nd workout need work bc I say so"

then go back to that site if you want different answers.
There are pro bb's on that site. So what, Not that it matters i am friends with some and some work for the same company as i do.

So i can just get my protien in and eat candy bars for the rest of my calories right.
My chicken and snickers bars. I'll get ripped as long as i my calories and protein

yes your diet is off. You are still light for the average guy your age and height. Never the less someone who follows a "diet" and works out. Yes you made progress you were sickly thin. Eating a sandwich would have helped you.

People have offered you help and you dont want it. You are going to convince anyone that what you are doing is right.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

I am thats why I am here: to learn about cycling.

My diet is great. My workouts are great. My gains/progress has been great.

I'm here to learn about just cycling. It's just plain ignorant to say that someone has diet/workout problem based off of just height and weight, it's called being full of yourself because you don't know that person's starting weight or progress or personal goals or anything.

If I haven't made good progress then just tell me what your natural progress is then instead of just throwing out blind insults.

i'm going of your height, weight , bf and pictures. And your description of your diet.
What else would i need? I dont need to sit at a table and watch you eat.
Jesus im ignorant? Yet have been making my living in this industry for over 12 years. I designed my avi's training and diet.

**canadianbrah** · 12-05-2011, 07:52 PM

Just reading through this thread, I'm pretty sure the OP is trolling you guys on purpose lol.

**JohnnyVegas** · 12-05-2011, 07:53 PM

I think this is my favorite thread of the week.

So, anyone that doesn't agree the best way to achieve an amazing physique includes McDonald's is a bro science spouting, ignorant idiot. And you are in a position to lecture such idiots despite the fact that you came here to ask the most basic questions about drugs and lifting. Plus, you decided to spar with a person that is not only very experienced, but chose to help despite you being obtuse and inappropriately cocky.

**The Bear 79** · 12-05-2011, 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

I am thats why I am here: to learn about cycling.

My diet is great. My workouts are great. My gains/progress has been great.

I'm here to learn about just cycling. It's just plain ignorant to say that someone has diet/workout problem based off of just height and weight, it's called being full of yourself because you don't know that person's starting weight or progress or personal goals or anything.

If I haven't made good progress then just tell me what your natural progress is then instead of just throwing out blind insults.

Actually, being able 2 pin point a diet problem based on someones stats takes a bit of knowledge & experience. Nobody is denying u made some significant gains recently, but ur current weight @ ur current height, suggests there's mor work 2 b done bro, u need 2 KEEP eating & keep lifting, til u build a sufficient foundation. And btw, it DOES matter where ur calories come from, there r good calories & bad (empty) calories, simple carbs (bad) & complex carbs (good) & so on & so on. U cant eat garbage & dump protein drinks down ur gullet & build the body of a pro, it wont work, I don't care wut u or google say. U r wut u eat, so ur either gona b fatty garbage or lean & healthy................ur choice.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by canadianbrah

Just reading through this thread, I'm pretty sure the OP is trolling you guys on purpose lol.

where is dec the troll detector

**The Bear 79** · 12-05-2011, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

i'm going of your height, weight , bf and pictures. And your description of your diet.
What else would i need? I dont need to sit at a table and watch you eat.
Jesus im ignorant? Yet have been making my living in this industry for over 12 years. I designed my avi's training and diet.

Good work brother!

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

then go back to that site if you want different answers.
There are pro bb's on that site. So what, Not that it matters i am friends with some and some work for the same company as i do.

So i can just get my protien in and eat candy bars for the rest of my calories right.
My chicken and snickers bars. I'll get ripped as long as i my calories and protein

yes your diet is off. You are still light for the average guy your age and height. Never the less someone who follows a "diet" and works out. Yes you made progress you were sickly thin. Eating a sandwich would have helped you.

People have offered you help and you dont want it. You are going to convince anyone that what you are doing is right.

You aren't allowed to talk about steroids on bodybuilding . com. I'm here for cycling advise, not ignorant dieting broscience advise.

Yes, as long as you reach your minimum protein AND fat, you can get the rest of your calories from candy bars. Make sure you take good multi to hit your micronutrients(which have zero effect on body comp)

Yes, I'm light for average guy my weight but I started at 132 pounds, why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

The only help this thread has given me was understanding that my endocrine system may not be fully developed yet so cycling wouldn't be smart to mess with that.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 08:04 PM

Yes you started at 132 and made good progress to 170 But you are still small and are not ready for steroids .

its not bro science fvck. Itrs basic nutrition.

I like that you have a min fat but no max

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 08:05 PM

The Bear 79,

I know there is more work to be done. I never said there wasn't more work to be done. That's where ignorant comments of "bad diet bad workout bro" is well, ignorant.

What you're saying is good advise, the only good advise in this thread summed up is "endocrine system not fully developed. Just keep working out/dieting before you possibly do permanent damage for no good reason.". Saying my diet/workout is bad out of nowhere is just plain stupid.

**The Bear 79** · 12-05-2011, 08:07 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

You aren't allowed to talk about steroids on bodybuilding . com. I'm here for cycling advise, not ignorant dieting broscience advise.

Yes, as long as you reach your minimum protein AND fat, you can get the rest of your calories from candy bars. Make sure you take good multi to hit your micronutrients(which have zero effect on body comp)

Yes, I'm light for average guy my weight but I started at 132 pounds, why is that so hard for you to comprehend?

The only help this thread has given me was understanding that my endocrine system may not be fully developed yet so cycling wouldn't be smart to mess with that.

No one is having a problem comprehending u made some exponential gains in a 6 - 8 month period................good 4 u, now get the fvck off it man! Y is it so hard 4 u 2 comprehend that even though u made some gains, ur still 2 lite, & ur foundation is insufficient?!?!?!

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

Yes you started at 132 and made good progress to 170 But you are still small and are not ready for steroids .

its not bro science fvck. Itrs basic nutrition.

I like that you have a min fat but no max

wow, actual good advise without insulting my diet / workout. thanks. That's all you needed to say was that you advise that I keep gaining more lean mass before considering steroids.

Just because a med student isn't a doctor does not mean they don't know as much or more than a doctor. They just aren't qualified yet to give others medical advise.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 08:08 PM

I need a drink after this thread

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 08:10 PM

holy shit i said that a page ago. You complianed you didnt want to bulk and cut and i said with a good diet you dont need to that you can gain lean muscle.

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 08:13 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

I think this is my favorite thread of the week.

So, anyone that doesn't agree the best way to achieve an amazing physique includes McDonald's is a bro science spouting, ignorant idiot. And you are in a position to lecture such idiots despite the fact that you came here to ask the most basic questions about drugs and lifting. Plus, you decided to spar with a person that is not only very experienced, but chose to help despite you being obtuse and inappropriately cocky.

change "best way" to "other ways".

Broscience works because of sufficient fat / protein / calorie intake comes included. The part about meal timing, carbs/fat manipulation, and "clean" vs "dirty" food is the bullsht part which has been proven many times to have little to no effect on actual body composition. Sure those things may factor in if your'e an athlete training for performance, but not body composition.

If you're truly interested, go ask about it on nutrition forum of bb . com.

**The Bear 79** · 12-05-2011, 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

wow, actual good advise without insulting my diet / workout. thanks. That's all you needed to say was that you advise that I keep gaining more lean mass before considering steroids.

Just because a med student isn't a doctor does not mean they don't know as much or more than a doctor. They just aren't qualified yet to give others medical advise.

R u kiddin man?!?!?!? Wut do u think "ur 2 lite, u hav no foundation, u need 2 eat mor" implies?!?!? Just bcuz no one came rite out & sed those exact words, doesn't mean u weren't told u needed 2 keep eating & gaining naturally b4 u cycle. And u were calling others "ignorant"?

**The Bear 79** · 12-05-2011, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

I need a drink after this thread

I only caught the tail of it, but I'm with ya. I'm buyin............

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

holy shit i said that a page ago. You complianed you didnt want to bulk and cut and i said with a good diet you dont need to that you can gain lean muscle.

You have given no proof of this magical way to gain muscle at a good pace without fat gain, naturally.

Is there a single person that gained an amazing amount of muscle without any fat then did 2x that once they took steroids ?

excess calories = muscle gain
excess calories = fat gain

high excess of calories = high muscle / fat gain
low excess of calories = low muscle / fat gain

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 08:19 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

You have given no proof of this magical way to gain muscle at a good pace without fat gain, naturally.

Is there a single person that gained an amazing amount of muscle without any fat then did 2x that once they took steroids?

go to the diet section and read.
i do it i never bulk.
I'm not going to sit and write from scratch a whole meal plan for you

you think the only way to change composition is just by calories?
I can change my macros and keep pretty much the same calories and see a change in bf

i dont understand the second question?

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 08:23 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

go to the diet section and read.
i do it i never bulk.
I'm not going to sit and write from scratch a whole meal plan for you

you think the only way to change composition is just by calories?
I can change my macros and keep pretty much the same calories and see a change in bf

i dont understand the second question?

The second question is show me someone with good Natural progress of just muscle gain without fat. Then to prove it was Natural, show their progress after cycling, which should be even better than their natural no fat muscle gain.

Cycling is strong enough to gain muscle without even working out.

**The Bear 79** · 12-05-2011, 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

The second question is show me someone with good Natural progress of just muscle gain without fat. Then to prove it was Natural, show their progress after cycling, which should be even better than their natural no fat muscle gain.

Cycling is strong enough to gain muscle without even working out.

Did u just say, u dont hav 2 workout while on gear, u will just build muscle 4 the simple fact ur injection steroids in ur body?!?!?!? FVCKING BRILLIANT I TELL YA!!!! SHARP AS BOWLING BALL!

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 08:29 PM

Sorry i dont just have laying around a picture progress of someone over time of their natural gains and then cycle gains.

I know i went from 119 my wrestling weight to 165 natural and always had abs now im about 195 and i'm 5'6

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 08:30 PM

Originally Posted by The Bear 79

Did u just say, u dont hav 2 workout while on gear, u will just build muscle 4 the simple fact ur injection steroids in ur body?!?!?!? FVCKING BRILLIANT I TELL YA!!!! SHARP AS BOWLING BALL!

as long as you eat your protein and candy

**The Bear 79** · 12-05-2011, 08:31 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

as long as you eat your protein and candy

AAHHH YES!! I almost 4got..............the key 2 it all.

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by The Bear 79

Did u just say, u dont hav 2 workout while on gear, u will just build muscle 4 the simple fact ur injection steroids in ur body?!?!?!? FVCKING BRILLIANT I TELL YA!!!! SHARP AS BOWLING BALL!

Studies have PROVEN this FACT. Do you know what Testosterone does?

I'll try to find the study for you which actually showed
working out without steroids : gained 4 pounds muscle
not working out with steroids: gained 7 pounds muscle
working out with steroid : gained 11 pounds muscle

You can take someone that doesn't work out, give them proper amount of protein/calorie intake and they will gain muscle without working out. You should research Hormones and what they do for you.

**JohnnyVegas** · 12-05-2011, 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

change "best way" to "other ways".

Broscience works because of sufficient fat / protein / calorie intake comes included. The part about meal timing, carbs/fat manipulation, and "clean" vs "dirty" food is the bullsht part which has been proven many times to have little to no effect on actual body composition. Sure those things may factor in if your'e an athlete training for performance, but not body composition.

If you're truly interested, go ask about it on nutrition forum of bb . com.

I don't believe in most meal timing, carb/fat manipulation and "clean" vs "dirty" food hype either. Although I error on the side of caution on the clean/dirty thing and still consider things like french fries to be a cheat food, not a staple. Mostly because it would be tough to get them to fit into my macros. "Dirty" foods are so calorie dense that I would need to go without a lot of food just so I could have some pie. But I love pie and squeeze it in on occasion. I blame it on my wife. She accepts the blame and then makes sure I change my food later in the day to make up for the evil pie.

No need for me to go to another forum for nutrition advice. I constantly tell people they are over thinking their diet, but encourage them to stick to the basics. Get nutrition 90% right and you will be miles ahead of those that talk and talk about nutrition, but don't have the willpower to actually stick to a diet.

Having said that, you said you were here for steroid advice, and one of the guys you should get that from is Gixxer.

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by gixxerboy1

as long as you eat your protein and candy

don't forget your chicken, brown rice, and broccoli.

If you refuse to do the research yourself then you're willfully ignorant on the topic. Go inform yourself on the natural bodybuilding nutrition forum.

**JohnnyVegas** · 12-05-2011, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

Studies have PROVEN this FACT. Do you know what Testosterone does?

I'll try to find the study for you which actually showed
working out without steroids : gained 4 pounds muscle
not working out with steroids: gained 7 pounds muscle
working out with steroid : gained 11 pounds muscle

You can take someone that doesn't work out, give them proper amount of protein/calorie intake and they will gain muscle without working out. You should research Hormones and what they do for you.

I have seen that study, and they are not athletes or bodybuilders. I gained muscle when I started TRT despite only doing light workouts (coming back from a serious spinal injury), so I know Test will add lean body mass to the point that the new Test levels dictate. But it isn't progressive like we are doing. They will not put on seven pounds every time they do steroids and keep some of it. For that, lifting and diet are key.

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 08:45 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

I don't believe in most meal timing, carb/fat manipulation and "clean" vs "dirty" food hype either. Although I error on the side of caution on the clean/dirty thing and still consider things like french fries to be a cheat food, not a staple. Mostly because it would be tough to get them to fit into my macros. "Dirty" foods are so calorie dense that I would need to go without a lot of food just so I could have some pie. But I love pie and squeeze it in on occasion. I blame it on my wife. She accepts the blame and then makes sure I change my food later in the day to make up for the evil pie.

No need for me to go to another forum for nutrition advice. I constantly tell people they are over thinking their diet, but encourage them to stick to the basics. Get nutrition 90% right and you will be miles ahead of those that talk and talk about nutrition, but don't have the willpower to actually stick to a diet.

Having said that, you said you were here for steroid advice, and one of the guys you should get that from is Gixxer.

I have received good advise which I am thankful for, just no need to bash someone's diet / workout when you don't know their workout, diet, starting weight, personal goals, hormone levels, etc etc. Just a simple fact that someone willing to go further with their bulk will gain more than someone that tries to stay somewhat lean all year round are things to consider.

1. Endocrine System may not be fully developed.

2. Stick with Natural Bodybuilding longer.

Thanks.

**Jake198599** · 12-05-2011, 08:47 PM

Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas

I have seen that study, and they are not athletes or bodybuilders. I gained muscle when I started TRT despite only doing light workouts (coming back from a serious spinal injury), so I know Test will add lean body mass to the point that the new Test levels dictate. But it isn't progressive like we are doing. They will not put on seven pounds every time they do steroids and keep some of it. For that, lifting and diet are key.

You are right. It's just a good study to look at to put into perspective how strong cycling is.

**gixxerboy1** · 12-05-2011, 08:49 PM

Originally Posted by jflanden

don't forget your chicken, brown rice, and broccoli.

If you refuse to do the research yourself then you're willfully ignorant on the topic. Go inform yourself on the natural bodybuilding nutrition forum.

my god. you do realize you really made me make a drink
I know about what you are talking about.
Its been debated on this board. I've been here a long time nothing you are telling me is new. Your the ignorant one