First Sust 250 cycle

**Stosh_112** · 05-21-2012, 08:11 PM

Shit should b kickin in by now brotha!

**Brohim** · 05-21-2012, 08:16 PM

hey buddy you need to use an AI. Order some liquidex. It is not the right way to do it that most guys do. They let they E spike to 3-400 before they move. Estrogen is supressive and can also cause gyno. Best to control it from the start. Also use some HCG if you can get some. 250iu x2 per week.

**trainhard82** · 05-22-2012, 07:37 AM

Originally Posted by Brohim

hey buddy you need to use an AI. Order some liquidex. It is not the right way to do it that most guys do. They let they E spike to 3-400 before they move. Estrogen is supressive and can also cause gyno. Best to control it from the start. Also use some HCG if you can get some. 250iu x2 per week.

I ordered some liquidex from Ar-r . What would you recommend for dosing?

**srt4wad** · 05-22-2012, 01:19 PM

.25 eod adjust if needed.

**trainhard82** · 05-22-2012, 05:17 PM

Did Deads today. First time doing them not on a smith machine as i switched gyms because they didnt allow free form deads! week 3 of 5/3/1 so i did 255x5, 290x1 (wasnt too heavy but hands were sweaty and couldnt hold grip for another rep with good form), 320x1 (this was the heaviest i have ever deadlifted and felt great.) I think i need to get straps due to my grip to bang out more reps without sacrificing form and possibly messing up my back. Was sweating like crazy today. Not sure if this is due to the gear kicking in or the pre-workout i took. Do you guys usually take pre-workouts while on a cycle? I have been doing it because i work an office job and go after work and usually need the caffeine boost.

**trainhard82** · 05-23-2012, 05:36 PM

Today was arm day. For some reason today's workout just felt awful. I just felt weak as all hell and looking in the mirror felt all bloated which i didn't like. Had next to no motivation even though i left the gym sweating like crazy. Maybe my arms were just dead from heavy chest on Mon and heavy back yesterday. Who knows. Hopefully my next workout will feel more beastly. I am only taking roughly 300-400mg a week of this so maybe i have too high of expectations for a first cycle. That and it is only the start of week 4. Only time will tell...

**trainhard82** · 05-25-2012, 04:32 PM

good shoulder workout today. was able to get 140x5, 160x3, 175x5 for standing overhead press. Overall felt like a great workout. Right glute has been killing me the past couple days and is swollen and tender to the touch similar to week 1s pinning. I am guessing i pinned a bad spot. Pinned the left glute today so hopefully that feels fine like it did all last week. Got my Liquidex in today so will start that tomorrow .25 eod as suggested above.

**NotConvincedYet** · 05-25-2012, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Brohim

hey buddy you need to use an AI. Order some liquidex. It is not the right way to do it that most guys do. They let they E spike to 3-400 before they move. Estrogen is supressive and can also cause gyno. Best to control it from the start. Also use some HCG if you can get some. 250iu x2 per week.

Excellent advice!

**trainhard82** · 05-26-2012, 03:36 PM

Started liquidex today. Both glutes are in pretty severe pain today which makes it hard to stand up or even put on pants/socks. This is similar to what i experienced week 1. Worst feeling in the world. I know it will go away but i wonder what causes it. Last week I pinned both glutes the same way and same spot and barely had any pain. Its like it swells all over the top part of both glutes and hurts to sit down/stand up or anything that requires those muscles. Maybe i am shaking a little too much during the pinning and cutting myself up pretty bad. Pretty much everytime i go to pin i am nervous for whatever reason.

**trainhard82** · 05-28-2012, 02:57 PM

Chest today went awesome. 225x5, 255x5, 275x5 on flat bench. Definitely can tell the difference on cycle as i am doing all this with no assisted lift or spot where before i would have definitely struggled especially on 275. So far chest day seems to be the only day i can really tell a difference in the ease of adding more weights. I am sure i dont feel it yet on deads due to the lack of grip strength when i go heavier. I have been doing the .25ml EOD of Liquidex as well. What do you guys recommend as far as increasing weight on cycle? I usually follow 5/3/1 which takes percentages of your 1RM but obviously my 1RM is now a lot higher. Do you keep a routine like 5/3/1 while on cycle or change it up to something where you just lift as heavy as possible to put on the most mass?

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-29-2012, 08:14 AM

If 1RM is a lot higher now, adjust your weights accordingly and continue pushing with the same set-rep format.

You will grow.

**trainhard82** · 05-30-2012, 01:01 PM

Received some advice here on these forums as well as from some other people that i should stop this cycle and wait until i am roughly 10% BF before starting up again. I have never been that low in BF% and the advice I am getting is that until i know how to eat and train properly to get their naturally that doing a cycle at a higher BF% (I am probably between 18-20% this deep into my cycle) could lead to sides that i could avoid at a lower BF%. I have no problem stopping as this has been a learning experience but at the same time if it isnt smart to stop now or would make more sense to continue is really the advice i need. I have been taking roughly 300-400mg a week of the sust and am on Liquidex for AI and have Nolva on hand for PCT. Any suggestions?

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-30-2012, 01:14 PM

A lower BF% is advised before starting a cycle not only due to the increased risk of sides, but there is also a psychological aspect to this: when your muscles are covered with pounds of fat, you never really see the growth of the lean muscle tissue, all you see is an overall increase in size/mass, whatever you name it.

My suggestion is that finish your cycle at around week 10 and continue to run your AI at the current dose (.25mg? EOD) up until PCT.

Start your PCT 18 days after your last Sustanon injection and Clomid should also be in there along with Nolvadex .

**trainhard82** · 05-30-2012, 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer

A lower BF% is advised before starting a cycle not only due to the increased risk of sides, but there is also a psychological aspect to this: when your muscles are covered with pounds of fat, you never really see the growth of the lean muscle tissue, all you see is an overall increase in size/mass, whatever you name it.

My suggestion is that finish your cycle at around week 10 and continue to run your AI at the current dose (.25mg? EOD) up until PCT.

Start your PCT 18 days after your last Sustanon injection and Clomid should also be in there along with Nolvadex.

Thanks. I am definitely noticing some strength gains and am seeing a lot of new veins/definition in the mirror. I was more concerned about the risk of sides but with only pinning 300-400mg a week and with AI and proper PCT I am thinking I should be ok. I may decrease calories a little to help aid in the BF% drop but that I know should be in the Nutrition Thread.

**binsser** · 05-30-2012, 01:24 PM

DONT just pin ur glutes youll end up with a massive monkey butt......

**DanB** · 05-30-2012, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by binsser

DONT just pin ur glutes youll end up with a massive monkey butt......

In fairness if he pinning twice a week and rotating left to right then there is no reason to pin anywhere else

**trainhard82** · 05-30-2012, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by binsser

DONT just pin ur glutes youll end up with a massive monkey butt......

I usually pin the right glute Tue and the left Fri using a 1.5" 22G needle. The pain last week was almost unbearable. Similar to Week 1. I am terrified to do my quads based on this because what good will I be if i can barely walk every week! My glutes do feel swolen and that was another concern of doing this week after week but then i read many threads on here of everyone pinning say just glutes or just delts like its nothing.....

**Newgu123** · 05-30-2012, 06:37 PM

Not sure if anyone touched on using an AI during your cycle? Adex would be a decent choice and I think because it is your first cycle I wouldn't want to "find out" if I'm gyno prone haha.. Adex at .25mg EOD is plenty and should keep the estrogen sides down (Gyno!!). I also take proviron with my test, 50mg ED of proviron. Frees up more test to be used, helps keep water weight down a bit and other sides and gives a little more of a tighter feeling, and lots of erections haha.

I don't agree with the Nolva+clomid PCT but whatever works for you guys.. Its been researched and proven that Nolva does a much better job at a much more efficient dose then Clomid not to mention the sides are way less then Clomid.. Standard sus PCT starts 21 days (Longest Ester is 3 weeks) after last pin 40/40/20/20 of Nolva .. Don't listen to anyone telling you to go above 40mg ED,, useless and a waste of money.

Good Luck! I look forward to hearing about your results.. I'm 3 weeks in and with diet and 500mg sus each week I'm up 7lbs and still at 9% BF!!

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-30-2012, 10:59 PM

Originally Posted by trainhard82

I usually pin the right glute Tue and the left Fri using a 1.5" 22G needle. The pain last week was almost unbearable. Similar to Week 1. I am terrified to do my quads based on this because what good will I be if i can barely walk every week! My glutes do feel swolen and that was another concern of doing this week after week but then i read many threads on here of everyone pinning say just glutes or just delts like its nothing.....

That's because those guys know how to pin.

**tdh96** · 05-31-2012, 09:01 AM

I'am trying to find the study I found that had scientific data. I can't remember what I was searching for when I found it.

It was a well known university doing a study on men and T. Men were givin 50MG a week/300MG and 600MG. These were seperate groups, a blind study. They charted and documented the results and levels from BW when injecting into the GLUTES VS THIGHES and two other muscles.

The result was a higher(much higher) level in the glutes and lasted a few days longer. so by injecting into different muscles the half life and levels vary.

I'm not on a cycle, But I thought this info could help. I'm on TRT inject once a week, and don't feel any pain after the first month or two.

Its the cotton seed oil,that causes pain. Unless of course you hit something like when your bicept turned red and had shooting pain.

The blood that came out was probably a blood vessel, you probably jabbed through it and when you pulled out, the bubbly of blood just came with it, happens to me nothing to worry about. Just make sure you pull the plunger back before injecting to make sure you are not injecting into the vessel. All this comes from my Daughter in law and Nephew who are RN nurses, and my experiance (which is limited). I hope to do a cycle soon, so I'm learning from all you people.

Hope this helps. and thanks for sharing!!

**trainhard82** · 05-31-2012, 09:39 AM

So I have another question. I have a timed run test this weekend for a job I am trying to get. I purposely did not pin this Tue and will not pin Fri because I dont want the glute pain to prevent me from running properly. Would it still be ok to pin say 1ml Sat night to make up for missing Tue and Fri? I am also a little nervous putting 1ml at once into my glute after the pain i feel from just .5ml but whatever i can fight through it. Any thoughts?

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-31-2012, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by tdh96

Its the cotton seed oil,that causes pain.

Not necessarily.

I have pinned myself with various injectable compounds over the past couple of years and some of those compounds had olive oil, sesame seed oil; some were water based compounds.

PIP is certainly determined by other variables and in my personal experience those would be:

1. Whether you are pinning a virgin muscle,

2. How much you are pinning at once (dosing),

3. Molecular weight of the compound that is being pinned,

4. Overall technique of pinning (whether you are pinning too fast is a big part of it),

5. Choice of syringe,

6. Pain threshold of the subject,

... and etc.

But, cotton seed oil is not to blame for.

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-31-2012, 10:18 AM

Originally Posted by trainhard82

So I have another question. I have a timed run test this weekend for a job I am trying to get. I purposely did not pin this Tue and will not pin Fri because I dont want the glute pain to prevent me from running properly. Would it still be ok to pin say 1ml Sat night to make up for missing Tue and Fri? I am also a little nervous putting 1ml at once into my glute after the pain i feel from just .5ml but whatever i can fight through it. Any thoughts?

What about not pinning glute?

**trainhard82** · 05-31-2012, 10:22 AM

Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer

What about not pinning glute?

pushups/pullups is also part of it so i am afraid to pin say the delts as well...

**Blergs** · 05-31-2012, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by trainhard82

So I ran into a bit of an issue today. My resource who assured me he has the Nolva and Clomid i would need for PCT is now saying he can no longer get any and isnt sure if/when he can get any in the future.....

I am now concerned. With this being my first cycle, not having proper PCT on hand is making me think i should stop until i have everything ON HAND. The question i have is with already taking in almost 500mg of the sust last week if i just stop cold turkey what would be the best way to approach it?

If you where doing a study I would rec Liquid CLOMI from AR-R . or Liquid TAMOX.
what about an AI don't you have that? somthing like Liquid STANE. ;-)

They are real high quality products.
Look at the talk on them, I am only saying it because I use them also.

**tdh96** · 05-31-2012, 03:08 PM

Turkish juicer,

With all do respect; Just my personal opinion from many types injections from T to just get a shot fom the doctor for other reasons. Moreover medical opinions from professionals. The thicker the compound the more it causes pain, it balls up like a knot in the muscle. feels like a charlie horse. I'm sure you've had a tetness, penisilin or flu shot, same type of pain, because medicine compound is thick. I agree there are other factors, but to say the thickness of the medicine doesn't matter is just not true. I felt the pain the first few times then it went away, still feel slight soreness with UGL versus pharm, because its thicker.

**Newgu123** · 05-31-2012, 06:24 PM

Originally Posted by trainhard82

So I have another question. I have a timed run test this weekend for a job I am trying to get. I purposely did not pin this Tue and will not pin Fri because I dont want the glute pain to prevent me from running properly. Would it still be ok to pin say 1ml Sat night to make up for missing Tue and Fri? I am also a little nervous putting 1ml at once into my glute after the pain i feel from just .5ml but whatever i can fight through it. Any thoughts?

I don't think there is much point to pinning 1ml to make up for missed, and maybe some of the vets will jump in here and correct me if I'm wrong but I recommended just starting back on your normal shot cycle as soon as you can.

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-31-2012, 11:22 PM

Originally Posted by tdh96

Turkish juicer,

With all do respect; Just my personal opinion from many types injections from T to just get a shot fom the doctor for other reasons. Moreover medical opinions from professionals. The thicker the compound the more it causes pain, it balls up like a knot in the muscle. feels like a charlie horse. I'm sure you've had a tetness, penisilin or flu shot, same type of pain, because medicine compound is thick. I agree there are other factors, but to say the thickness of the medicine doesn't matter is just not true. I felt the pain the first few times then it went away, still feel slight soreness with UGL versus pharm, because its thicker.

Read number 3 in my post above.

You have basically repeated one of the many factors I have stated in that post.

**trainhard82** · 06-01-2012, 06:29 AM

I ended up pinning last night after my workout 3/4ml in my right glute. I dont think the pain will be too bad by tomorrow AM to run without issue. I did it after a shower and made sure to go slow so hopefully that will help. Arm day yesterday felt really good. Saw a lot more vascularity in the mirror which was motivating. Still not huge strength gains for biceps but still felt good. Ex: normally i straight bar curl 80lbs and i tried 90 and 100 and they felt pretty heavy. No where near how easy heavier bench and shoulder press have started to feel. Not too concerned though. I was reading a lot in the nutrition forums and i think i may drop my carb intake from 300g daily to 150g daily to lean out a little more. Protein will still stay over 300g daily so I should be fine with building muscle. I have also been pretty amazed while on cycle how much of a waste 90% of supplements are. All i am taking right now is a multi, fish oil, and joint support. That and Melatonin before bed. Aside from the occasional protein shake my diet is all real food and i feel great. I used to be the one blowing $300+ a month on supplements thinking they were all needed to build a good physique!

**dtex587** · 06-01-2012, 07:46 AM

Thanks alot for the consistent posting trainhard as I plan my first ever cycle(prob 500 Test-E for 12 weeks) in next few weeks. I have a build much like u and have very similar goals and I have learned a great deal from ur extensive posts, thanks and keep um coming

**trainhard82** · 06-01-2012, 08:02 AM

Originally Posted by dtex587

Thanks alot for the consistent posting trainhard as I plan my first ever cycle(prob 500 Test-E for 12 weeks) in next few weeks. I have a build much like u and have very similar goals and I have learned a great deal from ur extensive posts, thanks and keep um coming

thanks man. I figured a thread like this not only helps me document the day to day but hopefully will help others on their first cycle to see what others go through. I am sure my experience will be different than your but hopefully you can learn something from my experience. The biggest thing i wish i researched before starting was the proper way to pin. I was not expecting the pain at all as i am pretty good with pain and have had plenty of shots in the past that didnt bother me but this was a whole different experience!

**Newgu123** · 06-01-2012, 10:24 AM

Awesome thread trainhard! Great information being posted by the vets and serves as a good info thread for anyone that reads it.

Do you guys know if theres any difference in effectiveness from pinning in the same spots all cycle. Someone once told me that the receptors get "worn" out from consistent injects in the same place, sounded like BS to me but I have no idea.

**trainhard82** · 06-04-2012, 02:20 PM

pain is pretty much gone from last Thu pinning and was no where near as bad as last week. no real swelling at all. I think the slow pin helped. will be doing left glute tomorrow so we shall see how that goes as well. Lifts continue to feel easier. I know this is only my first cycle and i am only doing a small dose but it really makes me wonder how much strength you must gain from cycles with multiple products at higher dosage!

**trainhard82** · 06-06-2012, 12:36 PM

Pin today went fine. Did 3/4ml to make up for only 1 3/4ml pin last week. Looking to pin again on Sat. Went slow again (took about 30 seconds to pin) as I am starting to think this is what is helping reduce the pain during the week.

Chest yesterday went well. Bench after warmup was 210x5, 225x5, and 240x10. Overall was a great workout. Thinking of buying a belt as dips are now 3 sets of 10 and i think i need to start doing weighted dips. Seeing as how i only had a 10ml bottle of Sutanon it looks like it is about to be done soon. I am guessing next week will be the last week. I am a little bummed out actually as i would like to see the results after 12 weeks but like i posted earlier I think i need to focus on getting my BF% down and then try again. Would you recommend a similar cycle or something different?

**UsKidsKnow** · 06-06-2012, 12:51 PM

TJ,

I'm running a similar cycle:

Sust 250: 500mg week
Week 1-4: dbol 40mg daily
Week 5-11: anadrol 50mg daily

Do you recommend the same nolva/clomid pct?

Thank you!!

Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer

PCT is inadequate.

I understand that you want to take it easy with dosing of compounds regarding PCT, which is fine for your cycle, but still, you shouldn't go under 20mg of Nolvadex a day. In addition, Clomid is shown to help a lot restoring your natural hormones after a cycle is over, and it creates a further synergy when combined with Nolva. Unlike Nolva, Clomid has it sides but it can be run at a rather low dose as these sides can be mostly avoided.

Nolva 20/20/20/20
Clomid 50/50/50/50

It is better to make sure you are going to recover from this cycle as much as you can than not being able to recover from it.

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-06-2012, 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by UsKidsKnow

TJ,

I'm running a similar cycle:

Sust 250: 500mg week
Week 1-4: dbol 40mg daily
Week 5-11: anadrol 50mg daily

Do you recommend the same nolva/clomid pct?

Thank you!!

First, I strongly suggest you do NOT run orals for 11 weeks straight in any cycle.

As for your question, that PCT protocol would be sufficient regarding hormonal restoration, although dosing of each compound is not a stone written element. Don't be surprised if another member comes around and says you have to run Nolvadex at 40mg for the first 2 weeks and/or Clomid at 100mg, although he wouldn't have proof towards whether doubling the dose would also double the pace of hormonal recovery and whether benefits of doing as such would exceed risks. Nolvadex can be run for 6 weeks at 20mg ED and all my research points out to the fact that it will do a better job at a lower dose within a longer time-frame.

**trainhard82** · 06-07-2012, 09:13 AM

Arms yesterday went fine. I have started to notice a more bloated look though in the mirror instead of the usual defined look which I am not too happy about. My diet has been a little inconsistent over the past week so my guess is this is what is causing it. I also notice I am almost never hungry anymore and am forcing myself to eat especially at night. It is almost difficult to put dinner down. Not sure if this is because i work out at 530pm and my workouts are so intense that my body is just shut down by the time i get home or what.

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-07-2012, 11:06 AM

Originally Posted by trainhard82

Arms yesterday went fine. I have started to notice a more bloated look though in the mirror instead of the usual defined look which I am not too happy about. My diet has been a little inconsistent over the past week so my guess is this is what is causing it. I also notice I am almost never hungry anymore and am forcing myself to eat especially at night. It is almost difficult to put dinner down. Not sure if this is because i work out at 530pm and my workouts are so intense that my body is just shut down by the time i get home or what.

You need to do cardio to workout those 2 issues, namely the hunger and bloated look.

**UsKidsKnow** · 06-07-2012, 01:52 PM

TJ, so just to understand, you recommend a 4 week PCT of Nolva 20/20/20/20/Clomid 50/50/50/50 each per day.

As far as the orals, I've already started the front-load of the dbol , which will run out around week three. Do you recommend taking 1-2 weeks off before I start running the anadrol ?

Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer

First, I strongly suggest you do NOT run orals for 11 weeks straight in any cycle.

As for your question, that PCT protocol would be sufficient regarding hormonal restoration, although dosing of each compound is not a stone written element. Don't be surprised if another member comes around and says you have to run Nolvadex at 40mg for the first 2 weeks and/or Clomid at 100mg, although he wouldn't have proof towards whether doubling the dose would also double the pace of hormonal recovery and whether benefits of doing as such would exceed risks. Nolvadex can be run for 6 weeks at 20mg ED and all my research points out to the fact that it will do a better job at a lower dose within a longer time-frame.

**Turkish Juicer** · 06-08-2012, 01:35 AM

Originally Posted by UsKidsKnow

TJ, so just to understand, you recommend a 4 week PCT of Nolva 20/20/20/20/Clomid 50/50/50/50 each per day.

As far as the orals, I've already started the front-load of the dbol, which will run out around week three. Do you recommend taking 1-2 weeks off before I start running the anadrol?

Yes, that's a PCT protocol I would recommend for rather light and short cycles. Nolvadex can be extended to 6 weeks at the same dose, however. If your body responds well to Clomid, 100mg ED for the first 2 weeks may be a bit more beneficial but not everyone responds well to Clomid in terms of its sides.

You don't front load orals, you must be confused about the terminology here.

If you are running one oral for 3 weeks and got another oral to continue with, then don't run them for over 8 weeks. 3+5=8.