First Sust 250 cycle

**trainhard82** · 05-04-2012, 11:50 AM

I am new to this thread and this is my first cycle so i wanted to get some feedback from the more experienced users on this site. I am 29 years old and 6'0" at 230lbs approx 15% BF. I have been training for over 10 years and have been debating about trying a cycle for years now but was always skeptical and didnt want to start without doing the research first. I was able to obtain through a friend some Sust 250 (300mg/ml). I really wanted to start with say Test C but this was all i could obtain and after reading about it didnt seem too bad for a first cycle. I have Nolva on hand and Clomid as well for PCT. Based on all the research i have done it appears Sust is meant to be taken EOD based on the half lifes of the blend. I started last Sun with my first pin in my right cheek. Mon and Tue were pretty sore but i pinned the leftt cheek on Tue to keep up with the EOD. By Thu it was to the point where i could barely sit and had no motivation to go to the gym due to the pain. Each pin was .5ml btw. I skipped the Thu pin as i was ready to throw this stuff out but a buddy of mine is on the same Sust and while he has pain he says he is able to push through it. I pinned my right Delt today with .5ml so we will see how that goes but both cheeks are still in a lot of pain. I have read that it may take 5-7 days for the pain to go away so we will see. I have also read that people have an allergic reaction to the prop so i am not sure if maybe i fit that category. The question i have for you guys is this typical first sust cycle symptoms that i should just push through and as the weeks go by it will be better due to this being the first time my muscles have been injected with oil and BA? Or should i stop this all together and look at getting into a Test C cycle down the road? I have also read many positive reviews on users who only pin say Mon/Thu with Sust and still have had great results. And before you ask there is no swelling or bruising or redness on my cheeks just sore to the touch so i dont think it is infected by any means. Any feedback would be great. Thanks!

**Stosh_112** · 05-04-2012, 12:23 PM

Bump ^^^ Im starting my first sust cycle soon. Sorry i dont have any info, besides what ive read but im sure the experts will get back to ya soon.

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-04-2012, 12:38 PM

- Sustanon may not be the best choice for a first cycle (consists of multiple Tests) but it is not a bad choice either. If it is all you got, then nothing wrong with running it.

- Sustanon is NOT meant to be taken EOD only because Test Prop in it has a short biological half life. You can pin Sustanon with 3-4 days apart and still experience everything you are supposed to experience throughout the cycle regarding gains. 500mg every week for 10 weeks is plenty for a first timer.

- Nolvadex and Clomid are sufficient for PCT. Are you clear when your PCT should start and dosing/duration of PCT compounds?

- You are experiencing pain in your injection site most likely because of the virgin muscle phenomenon. Rotate injection sites to deal with this situation. You will get used to it as time passes by and your pain threshold increases. Also, take your time while pinning, do not rush as this will only make things worse for the muscle.

- No, I would NOT switch to a different Test at this point, as it will not be the answer to your current PIP problem.

**trainhard82** · 05-04-2012, 12:47 PM

Thanks for the reply. I have read about pinning after a hot shower and also warming up the sust prior to injection and massaging the area afterward to help with the pain. I have started this with my delt pin so we will see if it helps. With it being 300mg/ml sust do you reccomend doing say .5ml E3D or something different? Also, at what point should i start noticing results from this? I have read anywhere from week 3 to week 6. I guess it depends on the individual and how much mg per week so we shall see. I am making sure to eat plenty of clean calories so i dont waste the potential of the cycle. I will update this thread daily so that users like Stosh 112 can at least have an idea what they are getting into. Any additional feedback from experienced users along the way would be great!

**Stosh_112** · 05-04-2012, 01:12 PM

Good deal brotha, keep us posted. Im being patient on staring my cycle. Been doing the priming diet before i start. Supposed to give ya more gains if ya prime diet before cycle.

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-04-2012, 10:38 PM

- Yes, warming up the gear helps as well as massaging the area after pinning.

- Just make sure you are pinning 500mg a week, not more. It does not matter if you pin EOD or E3D or 4 days apart... As for pinning twice a week, Monday-Thursday protocol is just fine.

- Starting to see results in terms of weight and strength gains depends on the individual. The short ester in Sustanon should kick in not later than week 3 though.

- You have not answered my question about PCT. Read my post again and return.

**trainhard82** · 05-06-2012, 03:09 PM

For PCT i will be running the following 3 weeks after the cycle ends:

Nolva 20/20/20/10/10

I also have Clomid but from what i heard it is not necessary for a sust cycle.

Today marks officially one week since my first pin. My right cheek has next to no pain in it anymore so it looks like it took a full 7 days for that to go away. My left hurts a lot but it will be 7 days on Tue so i am sure it will be fine by then. My right delt which was pinned on Fri feels like i got punched multiple times by a UFC fighter but that was expected. The question i have is how much does this pain taper off over the weeks? My concern is not dealing with the pain but the fact that it is making it so i cant lift properly and to me that ruins the point of this whole process. I am benching tomorrow so we will see how much my delt pain affects that. I know last week with both glutes sore as all hell i wasnt able to deadlift anywhere near what i normally can. I prefer to have my delts in pain over my glutes so i may pin those from now on but if it makes it so i cant bench or overhead press it kinda ruins it. I will post again tomorrow to let you know how it went.... fingers are crossed!

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-06-2012, 11:22 PM

PCT is inadequate.

I understand that you want to take it easy with dosing of compounds regarding PCT, which is fine for your cycle, but still, you shouldn't go under 20mg of Nolvadex a day. In addition, Clomid is shown to help a lot restoring your natural hormones after a cycle is over, and it creates a further synergy when combined with Nolva. Unlike Nolva, Clomid has it sides but it can be run at a rather low dose as these sides can be mostly avoided.

Nolva 20/20/20/20
Clomid 50/50/50/50

It is better to make sure you are going to recover from this cycle as much as you can than not being able to recover from it.

AD · 05-07-2012, 06:12 AM

Originally Posted by Turkish Juicer

PCT is inadequate.

I understand that you want to take it easy with dosing of compounds regarding PCT, which is fine for your cycle, but still, you shouldn't go under 20mg of Nolvadex a day. In addition, Clomid is shown to help a lot restoring your natural hormones after a cycle is over, and it creates a further synergy when combined with Nolva. Unlike Nolva, Clomid has it sides but it can be run at a rather low dose as these sides can be mostly avoided.

Nolva 20/20/20/20
Clomid 50/50/50/50

It is better to make sure you are going to recover from this cycle as much as you can than not being able to recover from it.

hi TJ

what is your opinion regarding starting pct drugs at slightly higher dose and then tailing off 2 wks later? some people like to half their dose after 2wks. what do you think?

**cruyff** · 05-07-2012, 06:19 AM

Test makes for an excellent first cycle in my book. I had great gains using 500mg/wk of test c.

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-07-2012, 08:23 AM

Originally Posted by cruyff

Test makes for an excellent first cycle in my book. I had great gains using 500mg/wk of test c.

We keep trying to explain this fact to the newbies. Some of them just won't understand.

**Turkish Juicer** · 05-07-2012, 08:33 AM

Originally Posted by asiandude

hi TJ

what is your opinion regarding starting pct drugs at slightly higher dose and then tailing off 2 wks later? some people like to half their dose after 2wks. what do you think?

Hi asiandude,

Well, they want to kick-start their HTPA with a higher dose of PCT compounds, which is why they will run Nolva at 40mg ED and Clomid at 100mg ED for the first two weeks of their PCT. The purpose here is quite obvious.

However, this double-dosing protocol is not a perfect method in my book, which is something I usually try to avoid to discuss since this protocol seems to have turned into a stone written element on this board.

Clinical human trials (the ones I came across with) conducted with Nolvadex lasted for 6 weeks and dosing was 20mg ED. Result was an increase in overall Test levels up to %350 in most patients. Why advice 40mg ED when you have no idea if doubling the dose also doubles the benefits? To me, it is much more likely that an increment will be created in potential sides when the dose is doubled as opposed to hoping for the benefits to be doubled as well. Thus, a better Protocol for Nolvadex would be 6 weeks of use at 20mg ED, IMO. Again, Nolvadex is pretty safe (it does generate some liver toxicity, however) concerning the sides but the same cannot be said for Clomid. Clomid can have some nasty side effects and these have been reported by many users across the globe, which is why I am not eager with advising 100mg ED for 2 weeks for the PCT of relatively light cycles.

**trainhard82** · 05-07-2012, 11:53 AM

So I ran into a bit of an issue today. My resource who assured me he has the Nolva and Clomid i would need for PCT is now saying he can no longer get any and isnt sure if/when he can get any in the future.....

I am now concerned. With this being my first cycle, not having proper PCT on hand is making me think i should stop until i have everything ON HAND. The question i have is with already taking in almost 500mg of the sust last week if i just stop cold turkey what would be the best way to approach it?

**Dinky** · 05-07-2012, 01:05 PM

Sure, you can stop cold turkey, but I wouldn't after being on for two weeks... The emotional roller coaster waiting for your levels to come back to normal just sucks. Plus it put you in a stage of having low T, and coming from someone who has had it, it blows!

Can you not find another source while you are running this cycle?

**trainhard82** · 05-07-2012, 01:47 PM

I have only been on it for one week. Was going to start week 2 today but hearing about the possible lack of being able to get proper PCT has now made me very nervous. I was ASSURED he already had it and then i just found this out. Lesson learned for dealing with a friend of a friend. Would my test levels already be that messed up after only one week where quitting now would put me in a stage of really low T? Also, if thats the case whats the best way to counteract that? Is time the only cure?

**Dinky** · 05-07-2012, 02:22 PM

I'm sure it slowed down or halted your natural production just from those two shots. So with that, yes, you will have Low T for a bit. It all depends on the person, because people bodies react differently. You could bounce back in a few weeks, or a few months, but yes it will bounce back to where it was (unless you have a medical problem). To 'fix it' you would need your PCT items like Clomid / Nolva for a few weeks.

Time is the cure with no PCT...

Edit: If you want it faster, go visit your infertility Urologist; they will / can prescribe you Clomid

**trainhard82** · 05-07-2012, 02:41 PM

Almost sounds like i am better off staying on the cycle and hoping over the next couple weeks i can figure out a way to get PCT. Cant be that hard....

**stpete** · 05-07-2012, 03:41 PM

You can get your PCT right here on this site.

**trainhard82** · 05-07-2012, 06:39 PM

Chest today wasnt too bad despite the pain in my right delt from the pin on Fri. I follow the 5/3/1 routine so i was able to bang out 205x5, 220x5, and 235x5 on flat bench as this is week1 of the routine. I didnt have my usual workout buddy with me today so i couldnt max out reps on the last set like i normally do.

Not sure on stpete's comment on getting PCT on this site but as far as i have always heard Nolva and Clomid are not easily accessible. Maybe i am missing something here...

**Simon1972** · 05-07-2012, 07:36 PM

click the top of the page banner AR-R delivers clomid and nolva very reputable.

**trainhard82** · 05-08-2012, 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Simon1972

click the top of the page banner AR-R delivers clomid and nolva very reputable.

I will have to check this out. Anyone else recommend this route?

AD · 05-08-2012, 05:53 PM

Probably everyone

**trainhard82** · 05-08-2012, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by asiandude

Probably everyone

The only question i have is their Clomid and Nolva is liquid. This may sound like a noob question but does that mean it needs to be pinned? If thats the case i am taking this is being pinned daily?

**dumb_aas** · 05-08-2012, 07:38 PM

Originally Posted by trainhard82

The only question i have is their Clomid and Nolva is liquid. This may sound like a noob question but does that mean it needs to be pinned? If thats the case i am taking this is being pinned daily?

Nope its oral. Sorry I don't know the dosages for the liquid since I've only dealt with tabs

AD · 05-08-2012, 09:38 PM

drink it like syrup. each bott should come with a measuring syringe. the dosage is the same as tabs mg-wise, but you'll have to look at the concentration mg/ml to measure out how much syrup to swallow

**trainhard82** · 05-09-2012, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by asiandude

drink it like syrup. each bott should come with a measuring syringe. the dosage is the same as tabs mg-wise, but you'll have to look at the concentration mg/ml to measure out how much syrup to swallow

Well that makes me feel a million times better. Looks like i will be purchasing both the Clomid and Nolva then from them. Thanks for saving this cycle! I pinned my left delt yesterday and my right delt already has barely any soreness from last Fridays pin so i think i am going to stick with alternating delts for my Tue/Fri weekly pinning as it is a lot more tolerable then the glute PIP. So far no noticable increase in strength but it is only the start of week 2. Deads were yesterday and i was able to do 240x5, 255x5, and 275x7 for my working sets. Curious to see how these numbers spike over the weeks. I also added a half a gallon of 2% milk to my diet to increase the calories which should help as well. Current daily macros are roughly 3675cals/330carbs/128fat/343protein

AD · 05-09-2012, 09:09 AM

Good luck! Remember to take some pics of yourself now before the juice kicks in. For your pre-cycle album.

**trainhard82** · 05-11-2012, 07:06 AM

Pain in my left delt from Tue pinning is at its highest today but still tolerable. Will be pinning my right delt today so we will see if that is now used to the prop a little more seeing as how this will be the second injection in that delt. Plan on doing shoulders tomorrow so should be interesting! Night sweats have kicked in a lot more starting yesterday been waking up to a soaked pillow! So far no noticeable drastic strength increases or even extra energy/motivation but i am sure that will come in the weeks ahead.

**trainhard82** · 05-12-2012, 09:06 AM

Right delt pinning yesterday was a little scary. Everything felt fine but when i pulled the needle out a good amount of blood came out and i had a numb feeling shoot all the way down to my fingers. I am guessing i pinned right near a nerve or something. Every time something like this happens it makes me want to stop doing this but then i read more about how other people go through the same thing and i press on. Right delt is very sore today as well as let so shoulder day today should be painful but i plan on pushing through it. I am wondering if i should stop using 1.5" needles and go to 1" for delts. I am thinking the 1.5" may be too long and that's why it is so painful. I also have been reading about scarring so I am not sure with only pinning each delt once a week if this is something i should worry about or if i should add in my glutes again so that i am pinning each spot once every two weeks. Let me know your thoughts!

**trainhard82** · 05-12-2012, 02:07 PM

Just got back from doing shoulders. Was one of the most painful workouts i have ever had but got through it. Was beautiful outside today so warmed up playing basketball for 20 minutes. Was able to do the following for standing overhead press 130x5, 140x5, 150x10. Hopefully working shoulders today will make the pain go away for the rest of the week in my delts. Especially for the Tue pinning.

AD · 05-12-2012, 07:45 PM

the amount of pain you feel from the pins are related to the diameter of the needles, not its length. if you want less pain, use 25g instead of 21g or 23g. if you're worried about 1.5inch going too deep, just don't push it in all the way.

i don't think fibrosis and scaring will be an issue with just twice a wk pinning over a 12wk cycle.

**Brohim** · 05-12-2012, 09:03 PM

yeah use a 25guage 1 inch needle for delts.

**trainhard82** · 05-14-2012, 05:41 PM

Today was chest. Start of week 2 of 5/3/1. Was able to do 225x3, 240x3, and 250x8 on flat bench. Felt pretty good. Still no crazy increase in strength but not expected anyway for a couple more weeks. Night sweats have still been going on. Both delts still very red and sore to the touch from pinnings last week. I expected my left delt to not have any pain as i pinned it a week ago tomorrow but still pretty painful and a little swollen. Looks like i will be pinning my right glute tomorrow instead which i am not looking forward to not being able to sit for a week but oh well no pain no gain right? Was thinking of picking up some joint support to start taking so that when the strength increase kicks in i dont have any joint issues. Not something i am prone to but just playing it safe.

**Stosh_112** · 05-15-2012, 11:20 AM

Are u using any AI?

**trainhard82** · 05-15-2012, 03:53 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh_112

Are u using any AI?

I have Ar-R Liquid Tamox on hand now should there be any issues and also for PCT. I am not taking an AI now though as i read you dont really NEED one with a sust only cycle. My source says he can get me HCG should i need it. Do you think it would be safer to take the Tamox now and also for PCT or possibly try to get the HCG and do that for the duration of the cycle as well? I am only pinning about 400mg of sust a week FYI

**trainhard82** · 05-16-2012, 11:03 AM

Pinned right glute yesterday afternoon. No pain at all during or after. Little sore today but nothing near what i experienced the first week. Hopefully this continues and life will be great!. Left delt pain has gone away. Right delt is still a little red/sore from Fridays pin but nothing crazy. I definitely think i missed the right spot with the right delt pin as the redness and pain crept all the way down to my bicep and covered my whole bicep/tricep area with a sunburn like redness. This has since faded so i am not too concerned about major infection although it was scary to see with this being new to me and all. Will be doing deads later today so we will see how it goes with the minor soreness in my right glute but hopefully if anything it will help loosen it up.

**Stosh_112** · 05-16-2012, 01:25 PM

I would just stick to pinning the glutes, its a bigger muscle with less nerves. As for the AI ive heard its best run it just to be safe to avoid sides all together. I think you'll be ok without HCG . N why arent u pinning 500mg a weeks, just curious? Anyways keep me posted, ill be starting my first sust cycle within the next 4 weeks. Ive gotten aromasin for an AI and Clomid and nolva for pct.

**trainhard82** · 05-17-2012, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Stosh_112

I would just stick to pinning the glutes, its a bigger muscle with less nerves. As for the AI ive heard its best run it just to be safe to avoid sides all together. I think you'll be ok without HCG. N why arent u pinning 500mg a weeks, just curious? Anyways keep me posted, ill be starting my first sust cycle within the next 4 weeks. Ive gotten aromasin for an AI and Clomid and nolva for pct.

I am going to stick with glutes. I went to delts because the pain from the first week in my glutes was so painful i could barely sit down and had no motivation to go to the gym. As painful as my delts were at least i could tolerate it and stand up / sit down normally. I pinned my right glute on Monday and today there is barely any pain. Looks like the first pinning is just the worst due to the oil and high BA content of sust with a virgin muscle. You asked about 500mg a week. I thought this was the recommended dosage no? Really it has been more like 400mg because a pin a lot more than 1/2ml and the sus i have is 300mg/ml. Back day yesterday i noticed on my seated cable rows and lat pulldowns that the normal weight i do felt like nothing so i jumped up 20lbs and it still barely felt like anything. Not sure if this was just a good day or if this stuff is starting to kick in. Either way left the gym feeling like a beast! My mindset now is to push the limit each workout. I also recently added half a gallon of milk a day to my diet as of last week so that could be making a difference as well. Deads yesterday were 270x3, 290x3, 305x5. The gym i go to doesnt allow free weight deads so this was on the smith machine. I joined a Golds today so starting next week i will be able to do REAL deads and squats so that should make a huge difference as well.

**trainhard82** · 05-20-2012, 01:24 PM

Pain in left glute has gotten a little worse over the weekend from Fridays pinning but nothing too serious. Diet has been a little out the window this weekend with cookouts and whatnot so i will be focusing more starting tomorrow on keeping that in check. Interested to see how next week plays out as it is week 3 of 5/3/1 so all my final sets will be heavy.

**trainhard82** · 05-21-2012, 07:59 PM

Pain in my left glute has gone down a little today. Right glute is pain free. Plan on pinning that tomorrow. Today was start of week 3 of 5/3/1. Bench was 210x5, 240x3, 270x6. Wasnt expecting to even get 3 at 270 so 6 was very motivating. Will see how the rest of this week goes but so far things are looking up!