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Thread: Atomini's all-you-need-to-know about TREN and how to use it effectively thread!

  1. #761
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    Atomini my bother!! I love your Tren thread, but I think its become a selfhelp thread for trolls..................

  2. #762
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    Quote Originally Posted by Papa Smurf View Post
    Atomini my bother!! I love your Tren thread, but I think its become a selfhelp thread for trolls..................
    Yeah i've lately been starting to think the same thing...

  3. #763
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    Is it possible for a mod to edit it down to only the posts that are informative, or request / add new information? I hate it when an otherwise awesome thread such as this becomes deluged with mostly useless or repeated stuff.

  4. #764
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    It depends on what your definition of what "enough" is.

    I have through my article here on Trenbolone outlined the concept of using 100mg weekly of Testosterone . So much so, in fact, that I am not going to repeat it over and over. The idea is that Testosterone takes a back seat role as a supportive compound meant for the purpose of maintaining normal physiological levels of Testosterone during a period in which endogenous Testosterone production is either shut down or suppressed. TRT doses of Testosterone are not designed to provide gains - that is something reserved for the primary anabolic compound, which in this case is Trenbolone.

    If your goal is to make gains with Testosterone, then no, 100mg weekly of Testosterone is not "enough". What is "enough" here is vastly relative to the individual, and what they want.

    Your cycle is solid.
    Thanks man for your help all these stupid dudes telling 100mg isn't enough to function off of. When in researching, studies say a healthy average male produces about 7-10 mgs daily so that's 49-70 mgs a week of natural test. 100mg is plenty to replenish the test you lost. Thanks again atomini your thread has helped a ton!!!!

  5. #765
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    Bulk and cut same cycle?

    Hey guys.. I am about to start my first tren ace and test p cycle. I plan on running it for 12 weeks.. My question is would it be wise to lift and eat for bulking the first 6 weeks and then try to start cutting the last 6 weeks.. Or would I be selling my self short of the cycles full potential? My cycle is as follows

    Tren ace = 350mg/ peer week
    Test P = 100mg/ per week
    Aromasin 12.5mg/ daily
    Cabergoline= .25 /twice a week

    I am 5ft 6
    170 with prolly about 15% bf

    I've bulked up alot on my last cycle of test e and eq..
    I'm looking to drop bf most important.. ..

  6. #766
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    Pick one or the other, either cut or bulk. Don't pick both, you'll just be spinning your wheels trying to do something that you won't get 100% accomplished progress on. I've tried it and it doesn't work.

    If dropping body fat is the priority for you, then focus on cutting. Simple as that.

  7. #767
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    Pick one or the other, either cut or bulk. Don't pick both, you'll just be spinning your wheels trying to do something that you won't get 100% accomplished progress on. I've tried it and it doesn't work.

    If dropping body fat is the priority for you, then focus on cutting. Simple as that.
    Ok thanks for the advice.. But for the most part is my cycle solid? And since I'm cutting how many calories should I be consuming?

  8. #768
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    Post your diet, stats and goals over in the Nutrition forum. I think most if not all of your cutting goals should be accomplished first via diet and exercise, not with AAS.

  9. #769
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    Yes the cycle is good, BUT remove the Aromasin , there is no need for it when using 100mg/week of Testosterone . All you are going to do is reduce Estrogen down to sub-physiological levels and that will give you problems, and possibly hinder your gains. Just keep it on hand.

    And oatmeal69 is right, take your nutrition questions to the Nutrition section of the forum, you will get better answers there. This is also a Trenbolone thread, I don't want it getting cluttered with diet and nutrition questions.

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    Guess I'm still not understanding some of the finer points RE: Aromasin ... Maybe I need to re-read.
    Does this look good?

    140mg Test-E / Wk. (20/mg per injection, ed) - 11 wks.
    350mg Tren -A / wk. (50/mg per injection, ed) - 10 wks.

    Aromasin 12.5mg/EOD (25mg/ED if gyno symptoms appear)
    _ Optional/On hand -
    Tamoxifen 40mg/ED -IF- needed for treatment of gyno symptoms.

    - P.C.T. -
    2 weeks after last injection
    Aromasin 25mg/25mg, ED - 2 weeks only
    Tamoxifen 40mg/40mg ED then 20mg/20mg/20mg/20mg ED

  11. #771
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    Aromasin is not required if using Testosterone at 100mg weekly, because at that Testosterone dose, the body will not be aromatizing enough of it into problematic levels of Estrogen. It is only when levels extend into the supraphysiological range does the body begin to increase its aromatization, and that is when you will require an AI. If you throw an AI into a cycle where TRT doses of Testosterone are used, you are going to reduce your Estrogen levels to abnormally low levels.

    For PCT, Aromasin is fine to use at a full daily dose, but no longer than 2 weeks at such a dosing frequency.

  12. #772
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    Awesome. I love how simple my cycle has become. Thanks again!

  13. #773
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    back to Tren!

    Ok, Atomini, first off, great thread! I am on week 15 of tren ace 100 and test prop 100 qd
    Gains are not plateauing, actually feel better every week. I am reticent to shut down the tren and go back to the baseline TRT I was on before.
    So my question is how long have you blasted on tren? I am a doc and have all the AIs and PRL antagonists on hand and (cialis 5mg bid) and have only needed the AI as E2 levels are closely managed and AI dosed accordingly. Have been at a nice steady state for the past month and basically am looking for reassurance that I am not being a complete idiot taking a cycle out to 20 wks. The diminishing returns have not started yet which is why I pose this question.

    Full disclosure this is only 2nd cycle, first test only. 43 years old, lifting since childhood (really, Joe Weider bench in basement filled with sand), former NCAA Wrestler which accounts for the brain damage, Have been using TRT in my patients for years and unlike most docs are aware and prepared for adverse reactions/andro or prolactin side effects.
    Last edited by Peer; 03-13-2013 at 12:34 AM. Reason: currect spelling

  14. #774
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peer View Post
    back to Tren!

    Ok, Atomini, first off, great thread! I am on week 15 of tren ace 100 and test prop 100 qd
    Gains are not plateauing, actually feel better every week. I am reticent to shut down the tren and go back to the baseline TRT I was on before.
    So my question is how long have you blasted on tren? I am a doc and have all the AIs and PRL antagonists on hand and (cialis 5mg bid) and have only needed the AI as E2 levels are closely managed and AI dosed accordingly. Have been at a nice steady state for the past month and basically am looking for reassurance that I am not being a complete idiot taking a cycle out to 20 wks. The diminishing returns have not started yet which is why I pose this question.

    Full disclosure this is only 2nd cycle, first test only. 43 years old, lifting since childhood (really, Joe Weider bench in basement filled with sand), former NCAA Wrestler which accounts for the brain damage, Have been using TRT in my patients for years and unlike most docs are aware and prepared for adverse reactions/andro or prolactin side effects.
    Hey Peer,

    The longest I have ever run a cycle of Trenbolone was 12 weeks. I personally don't even like to push it past 8 - 10 weeks, but I did do 12 weeks once with no ill effects and no reduction or plateauing in gains. However, no signs of plateauing gains or ill effects shouldn't be the only reason to stop a Trenbolone cycle at 12 weeks. I personally would never run 20 weeks due to the internal effects on the body's subsystems over time (cholesterol values, effects on cardiac tissue, constant arterial pressure, and (especially in Trenbolone's case) vascular reactivity. As a doctor, these things should be a no-brainer to you. Running a compound as harsh as Trenbolone for 20 weeks is risking all of these effects becoming worse. It is probably the biggest reason why I advise Trenbolone cycles to run no greater than 8 - 10 weeks in length. People seem to just focus on asking themselves these two questions:

    1. Are my gains plateauing?
    2. Am I experiencing any NOTICEABLE side effects?

    And if the answer is no to both, they assume everything is A-OK to continue running Trenbolone at dangerous cycle lengths. These are not the only two things to be concerned about when running Trenbolone for ANY lengths. Just because someone isn't physically or visually noticing 'side effects', doesn't mean there are negative alterations and changes occurring within the body. Trenbolone is notorious for doing things like that which are unnoticeable, and it does it at a far greater degree than any other anabolic steroid .

  15. #775
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    Hey Peer,

    The longest I have ever run a cycle of Trenbolone was 12 weeks. I personally don't even like to push it past 8 - 10 weeks, but I did do 12 weeks once with no ill effects and no reduction or plateauing in gains. However, no signs of plateauing gains or ill effects shouldn't be the only reason to stop a Trenbolone cycle at 12 weeks. I personally would never run 20 weeks due to the internal effects on the body's subsystems over time (cholesterol values, effects on cardiac tissue, constant arterial pressure, and (especially in Trenbolone's case) vascular reactivity. As a doctor, these things should be a no-brainer to you. Running a compound as harsh as Trenbolone for 20 weeks is risking all of these effects becoming worse. It is probably the biggest reason why I advise Trenbolone cycles to run no greater than 8 - 10 weeks in length. People seem to just focus on asking themselves these two questions:

    1. Are my gains plateauing?
    2. Am I experiencing any NOTICEABLE side effects?

    And if the answer is no to both, they assume everything is A-OK to continue running Trenbolone at dangerous cycle lengths. These are not the only two things to be concerned about when running Trenbolone for ANY lengths. Just because someone isn't physically or visually noticing 'side effects', doesn't mean there are negative alterations and changes occurring within the body. Trenbolone is notorious for doing things like that which are unnoticeable, and it does it at a far greater degree than any other anabolic steroid.
    Ran my last Tren E cycle 22 weeks! It was a waste past 14-16 weeks! never again!!!!!!!!

  16. #776
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lunk1 View Post
    Ran my last Tren E cycle 22 weeks! It was a waste past 14-16 weeks! never again!!!!!!!!
    Yeah I couldn't see myself ever going that long on Trenbolone (or any AAS, really) even if I was on TRT and didn't have to worry about HPTA recovery. I have considered attempting one of those long-term long estered Testosterone cycles in the past but it just isn't worth it. I'd never even consider it with Tren , it's just crazy.

  17. #777
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    Atomini,
    Thanks for the considered feedback, I will take your advice and revert to TRT dosing. Your work on this tread is much appreciated! It think I need to do more digging for studies on the effects of various AAS's on systemic vascular resistance, my assumption was that AAS's hypertensive potential is primarily caused intravascular volume expansion through erythroid line stimulation and secondarily by aldosterone-like sodium retention.

  18. #778
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    You are correct, but you also have to remember that analogues and derivatives of hormones behave in a different aspect all in their own right. Once the hormone is modified, it now becomes a new anabolic steroid that, although expresses similar properties passed down from its progenitor hormone, it now expresses new unique properties all in itself. There is increasing amounts of evidence and research out there to show that Trenbolone expresses a greater degree of vascular reactivity than other anabolic steroids . Although it hasn't been demonstrated in humans since Trenbolone cannot be studied in human subjects, it is still something of concern. I will try and dig up the clinical data some time soon.

  19. #779
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    Atomini, you've mentioned that you have been running test+tren for the past 5 years. Do you ever worry about injuries with your joints/tendons/tearing muscle. Would you recommend someone to take a break from tren and run var or deca to increase collagen synthesis?

  20. #780
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jstock1988 View Post
    Hey guys.. I am about to start my first tren ace and test p cycle. I plan on running it for 12 weeks.. My question is would it be wise to lift and eat for bulking the first 6 weeks and then try to start cutting the last 6 weeks.. Or would I be selling my self short of the cycles full potential? My cycle is as follows

    Tren ace = 350mg/ peer week
    Test P = 100mg/ per week
    Aromasin 12.5mg/ daily
    Cabergoline= .25 /twice a week

    I am 5ft 6
    170 with prolly about 15% bf

    I've bulked up alot on my last cycle of test e and eq..
    I'm looking to drop bf most important.. ..
    Could you please stop fcking up a Great thread about tren and ask you ? in the Q & A section. Atomoni is to nice a guy to say this but Im an ole asshole, so I can!

  21. #781
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    Quote Originally Posted by diabolicsoul View Post
    Atomini, you've mentioned that you have been running test+tren for the past 5 years. Do you ever worry about injuries with your joints/tendons/tearing muscle. Would you recommend someone to take a break from tren and run var or deca to increase collagen synthesis?
    I've been running Test and Tren CYCLES for the past 5 years. Someone else previously made the mistake in this thread assuming I have been on Trenbolone and Testosterone for 5 years straight, LOL. I seem to have to clear that up every now and again.

    No, I have never had to worry about connective tissue, muscle tears, or joint issues. My joints are fine and I lift with HIT style training to failure heavy weights - but my form is perfect, very slow repetitions, and I avoid any plyometrics or stupid crap that will cause impact, pounding, or unnecessary tendon and joint strain.

    ALLLLLLLL anabolic steroids increase collagen synthesis. Nandrolone does it to a greater extent than other AAS, but they all do it. There should be no reason for anyone, as long as they are training properly with proper form and cadence, to have joint and tendon problems especially if they are on cycle. Joint/tendon/muscle issues should DISSAPEAR on cycle. If someone trains like an idiot, they'll end up hurting themselves whether on gear or not.

  22. #782
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post

    I've been running Test and Tren CYCLES for the past 5 years. Someone else previously made the mistake in this thread assuming I have been on Trenbolone and Testosterone for 5 years straight, LOL. I seem to have to clear that up every now and again.

    No, I have never had to worry about connective tissue, muscle tears, or joint issues. My joints are fine and I lift with HIT style training to failure heavy weights - but my form is perfect, very slow repetitions, and I avoid any plyometrics or stupid crap that will cause impact, pounding, or unnecessary tendon and joint strain.

    ALLLLLLLL anabolic steroids increase collagen synthesis. Nandrolone does it to a greater extent than other AAS, but they all do it. There should be no reason for anyone, as long as they are training properly with proper form and cadence, to have joint and tendon problems especially if they are on cycle. Joint/tendon/muscle issues should DISSAPEAR on cycle. If someone trains like an idiot, they'll end up hurting themselves whether on gear or not.
    I noticed my tendonitis in my elbows was much less painful and began to become unnoticeable on cycle. I guess now i know why.

  23. #783
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    You gain great knowledge on this compound by reading from page 1, most of the questions will be answered plus more. That's what new comers should do.

  24. #784
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    Im about to start test prop, trenbalone acenate, clen and winstrol (oral) for a 12 week cutting cycle. Im planning EOD shots 700mg total every week and 60mg ED orals Im 28 5"11 88kilos 18%bf trainning 3.5 years training, clean diet and my aa history is 2 cycles of dbol only cycle, 1 cycle of nandralone, test and dbol cycel.
    Any advice on my next cycle as im not 100% yet if im adding in to much to soon or its ok. I havent mentioned my pct but hct and clomid and nolvadex will be used.

  25. #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by jtchef View Post
    Im about to start test prop, trenbalone acenate, clen and winstrol (oral) for a 12 week cutting cycle. Im planning EOD shots 700mg total every week and 60mg ED orals Im 28 5"11 88kilos 18%bf trainning 3.5 years training, clean diet and my aa history is 2 cycles of dbol only cycle, 1 cycle of nandralone, test and dbol cycel.
    Any advice on my next cycle as im not 100% yet if im adding in to much to soon or its ok. I havent mentioned my pct but hct and clomid and nolvadex will be used.
    I honestly think you should first of all get your body fat % a bit lower first, try to get it to 15%. Other than that, your proposed cycle looks okay, but considering your cycle history, I think you'd do well to run a few more Testosterone -only cycles first before this.

  26. #786
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    Hi Atomini. I want to do an 8 week cycle of Tren A @ 35mg eod. I'm on a TRT dose of 150mg test c each week. I'll cut that down to 100mg a week (50mg x2) for the 8 weeks. Do you think I'll need caber for that low amount or Tren? Thank you.

  27. #787
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    Hey HawaiiLifr,

    No, you most likely will not require Cabergoline or any Prolactin antagonist at that dose of Testosterone because you will (or rather, SHOULD) be keeping your Estrogen levels effectively under control by doing that. I do, however, always advise people to keep some form of a Prolactin antagonist on-hand at the very least though, just in case anything does occur with Prolactin.

  28. #788
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    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    Hey HawaiiLifr,

    No, you most likely will not require Cabergoline or any Prolactin antagonist at that dose of Testosterone because you will (or rather, SHOULD) be keeping your Estrogen levels effectively under control by doing that. I do, however, always advise people to keep some form of a Prolactin antagonist on-hand at the very least though, just in case anything does occur with Prolactin.
    Thanks I appreciate that Atomini.

  29. #789
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    thanks so much for the post, extremely informative and helpful.

  30. #790
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    Great thread! I read all 20 pages, and decided to join the forum as a result.

    MY HISTORY
    Teens
    Ate like crap (chips, ice cream, pizza)
    Worked out occasionally w/o coaching or peers, did 50 consecutive pull-ups after 3 months of practice and a protein powder at age 14, if I ever went to a gym or otherwise worked out, my gains were sudden and incredible, had terrible acne, deep voice (sing bass) from age 12.

    Early 20s
    I first lifted regularly at age 20, and went from 140lbs to 165lbs in 3 months. Startling change, needed a new wardrobe. Started eating more protein, did powerlifting movements as heavy as possible at high volume (10 rep sets).

    Mid 20s
    I had my testosterone levels checked when I started feeling chronic fatigue, and my levels came back at over double normal for the baseline of 18 year old males (at age 26). The doctor and lab refused to believe that I was not taking AAS, which I had never tried.

    Late 20s
    I got curious and wanted to break past some lifting plateaus, so I decided to study AAS usage which I did for about six months before trying them.

    My first/only cycle, late 20s
    I wanted to sample a little bit of everything, and see which engineered hormones my body felt best on. Gains were almost secondary. I wasn't competing, wasn't showing off my nude body, I just like being a brutal, active mofo and hiking the mountain ridges, etc.

    I gradually upped the dosage as my results seemed pretty poor for a while, but again, my natural levels and lifting habits were already extreme so I probably wasn't hitting super-normal levels as early as some might. I wound up with the following.

    Every 5 days, injected one of the following in a round-robin rotation, took tabs daily/About 12 weeks
    750mg Test-Sustanon
    600mg Deca
    300mg Primo
    ?mg. Dianabol tabs (forget how much, it was a while back)

    Food
    Gallon whole milk
    Rotisserie chicken
    Entire pan of family sized lasagna
    Who knows what else...8k calories daily, plenty of protein.

    Back then, they said to use Nolvadex as an AI, and Clomid for PCT. I am SO glad to learn that I don't need Clomid after all, taking that made me feel like a pregnant woman.

    Starting stats:
    5'6"
    175lbs
    32" waist

    Ending stats:
    225lbs
    31" waist
    25% increased lifts
    Got stretch marks around my biceps that are still there (goddamnit!)
    Weighed 185 a year later, was my last cycle. Felt I didn't need it at that age all that much.

    So, I realize that I am a genetic freak and that maybe it will work in my favor and that what works with others may not work the same way with me. Now that I am in my late 30s, my body isn't coping with the aggressive workouts anymore w/o AAS.

    MY QUESTIONS
    Tren seems to act much like a stimulant in the body, unlike Testosterone which can be calming. Any ideas as to why?

    If Tren behaves like concentrated non-aromatizing test+an upper, why try to use as much as the body can tolerate instead of a balance of test/Tren? I suspect that I might like the upper effect, but if I get no sides from large amounts of test/estrogen/progesterone/whatthe****erone, why not run more test and a little bit less Tren? It seems like all or nothing thinking to not consider it a spectrum.

    How about a long test cycle, with a short Tren cycle, to let the body have only a brief exposure to Tren while having the time to make some good, solid progress in the gym? After all, the hormones do very little without some badass lifts and the time to have a progression of them.

    I.E.
    8 weeks:
    500mg test/wk
    200mg Tren/wk
    4 weeks:
    1gm test/wk

    Follow with PCT

    My disclaimer is that I'm a genetic freak, and did the above with no sides other than being slightly hornier than usual. I got no acne, nothing but big legs, big torso, small waist, and biceps stretch marks (goddamn it nobody warned that could happen!). I don't recommend my approach for anyone's body but mine, because I clearly respond differently from most people to AAS.
    Last edited by tpe4ever; 03-24-2013 at 05:28 PM.

  31. #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpe4ever View Post
    Great thread! I read all 20 pages, and decided to join the forum as a result.

    MY HISTORY
    Teens
    Ate like crap (chips, ice cream, pizza)
    Worked out occasionally w/o coaching or peers, did 50 consecutive pull-ups after 3 months of practice and a protein powder at age 14, if I ever went to a gym or otherwise worked out, my gains were sudden and incredible, had terrible acne, deep voice (sing bass) from age 12.

    Early 20s
    I first lifted regularly at age 20, and went from 140lbs to 165lbs in 3 months. Startling change, needed a new wardrobe. Started eating more protein, did powerlifting movements as heavy as possible at high volume (10 rep sets).

    Mid 20s
    I had my testosterone levels checked when I started feeling chronic fatigue, and my levels came back at over double normal for the baseline of 18 year old males (at age 26). The doctor and lab refused to believe that I was not taking AAS, which I had never tried.

    Late 20s
    I got curious and wanted to break past some lifting plateaus, so I decided to study AAS usage which I did for about six months before trying them.

    My first/only cycle, late 20s
    I wanted to sample a little bit of everything, and see which engineered hormones my body felt best on. Gains were almost secondary. I wasn't competing, wasn't showing off my nude body, I just like being a brutal, active mofo and hiking the mountain ridges, etc.

    I gradually upped the dosage as my results seemed pretty poor for a while, but again, my natural levels and lifting habits were already extreme so I probably wasn't hitting super-normal levels as early as some might. I wound up with the following.

    Every 5 days, injected one of the following in a round-robin rotation, took tabs daily/About 12 weeks
    750mg Test-Sustanon
    600mg Deca
    300mg Primo
    ?mg. Dianabol tabs (forget how much, it was a while back)

    Food
    Gallon whole milk
    Rotisserie chicken
    Entire pan of family sized lasagna
    Who knows what else...8k calories daily, plenty of protein.

    Back then, they said to use Nolvadex as an AI, and Clomid for PCT. I am SO glad to learn that I don't need Clomid after all, taking that made me feel like a pregnant woman.

    Starting stats:
    5'6"
    175lbs
    32" waist

    Ending stats:
    225lbs
    31" waist
    25% increased lifts
    Got stretch marks around my biceps that are still there (goddamnit!)
    Weighed 185 a year later, was my last cycle. Felt I didn't need it at that age all that much.

    So, I realize that I am a genetic freak and that maybe it will work in my favor and that what works with others may not work the same way with me. Now that I am in my late 30s, my body isn't coping with the aggressive workouts anymore w/o AAS.

    MY QUESTIONS
    Tren seems to act much like a stimulant in the body, unlike Testosterone which can be calming. Any ideas as to why?

    If Tren behaves like concentrated non-aromatizing test+an upper, why try to use as much as the body can tolerate instead of a balance of test/Tren? I suspect that I might like the upper effect, but if I get no sides from large amounts of test/estrogen/progesterone/whatthe****erone, why not run more test and a little bit less Tren? It seems like all or nothing thinking to not consider it a spectrum.

    How about a long test cycle, with a short Tren cycle, to let the body have only a brief exposure to Tren while having the time to make some good, solid progress in the gym? After all, the hormones do very little without some badass lifts and the time to have a progression of them.

    I.E.
    8 weeks:
    500mg test/wk
    200mg Tren/wk
    4 weeks:
    1gm test/wk

    Follow with PCT

    My disclaimer is that I'm a genetic freak, and did the above with no sides other than being slightly hornier than usual. I got no acne, nothing but big legs, big torso, small waist, and biceps stretch marks (goddamn it nobody warned that could happen!). I don't recommend my approach for anyone's body but mine, because I clearly respond differently from most people to AAS.
    tpe4ever,

    Trenbolone is not an 'upper', it is not a stimulant. It has effects on the CNS in the same way Dihydrotestosterone does because it is extremely androgenic . I think you are also not properly understanding the fundamentals behind utilizing TRT doses of Testosterone with Trenbolone. Trenbolone's side effects are greatly increased and exacerbated in a high Estrogen environment, which is what happens when you run Testosterone much higher than Trenbolone. There is also strong speculation that Trenbolone will also exert its side effects more strongly in the presence of Testosterone and other androgens floating around the bloodstream.

    I think one of the best layman explanations of Trenbolone and how it works in the body was one I came across on another forum by someone. I cannot link to other forums on here, it is against board rules, but i'll just go ahead and quote what I read. Keep in mind this is a very un-scientific explanation and there are some flaws in the explanation (such as receptor site claims), but it is generally dead-on concerning Trenbolone's effects on the body. Read it and read it well, it is a very good explanation for those who are not well-versed in the technical details of the science and I probably would've tried explaining the concepts in the same way:

    Trenbolone, as they say..... The Nectar of the Gods! Is by far the most misunderstood drug, in all of bodybuilding history. So many stories out there of the reckless insomnia, the high blood pressure, the hair on your pillow, the brown stinky urine that is reponsibly for your kidneys falling out of your ass. Ill be the first person to tell you that this is 90% horse shit.

    Why? Continue reading below.

    You see, due to broscience and bible like teachings of steroid use , everyone thought it was only logical to run your Test twice as high as your Tren, you know..to avoid that TREN DICK! Well, it would only seem logical right? God forbid the Tren dosage was as high as your Test, and you might just get called insane or stupid. Well, I too was one that fell into the hole of incorrect teachings. My first time trying Trenbolone, I start out at 150mg per week…150 measly milligrams per week. I coupled it with 500mg Test Enanthate . And I tell ya what…I felt the night sweats, insomnia, the aggression, and the high blood pressure. I felt god ****ing awful. And so there I stopped.

    A few months later down the road, I began reading some things on this very forum, all about low Test/ High Tren. Me being a guinea pig, I decided to give Tren one more try.

    Now back to the “Low Test” deal, I had read a post some fellow made, about NEVER going above 200mg whenever Tren is in the equation. So I tried it…
    I started out again with 50mg Tren Ace EOD. Coupled with 50mg Test Ace EOD.

    2 Weeks in and I began feeling incredible. Strength and size were thru the roof. And I said, damn, is this Test Ace good as **** and this Tren Ace bunk or someshit? No way, GAULS never sends me bunk shit…. What the ****? I don’t feel any sides!

    So I bumped the Tren Ace to 100mg EOD. I felt even better…

    Then I bumped the Tren Ace to 200mg EOD….

    Then 300mg EOD.

    And good god, I was the biggest and leanest Ive ever been in my life, all the while running 150mg of Test Ace per week the entire time.
    I was on 900mg of Tren Ace per week only for 2 weeks, and then I dropped the drug entirely. But I must state again, never in my life had I felt so amazing. Strength, size, vascularity, sex drive, well being, blood pressure, my god did I feel like a well-lubed high performance machine. I had gained 10lbs of pure size and no water in just 4 weeks. I am NOT telling you to run 900mg of Tren, no I really am not. This is purely for my own experimental reasons. I just wanted to see what would happen, even if I stayed on 150mg Test the entire time.


    After this experience, Testosterone is simply a weak and inefficient steroid next to Trenbolone. In my mind, when you couple such a powerful drug like Trenbolone at a moderate to high dosage, with a high dosage of Testosterone, you leave LOTS and LOTS of unbound hormone flowing around mindlessly in your body. Since Trenbolone attaches to the receptor site first, and there is high dosages of Testosterone in the mix as well, its as if Testosterone is roaming the streets looting stores, stealing cars, breaking windows (high blood pressure, insomnia, night sweats).

    You know what I say? When Trenbolone is sitting at the front of the table, talking, everyone else shuts their mouths. That’s right. He is the ****ing boss and no one else is above him. Testosterone is like the boss’ bitch. The boss’ bitch is allowed to speak ONLY when the boss is NOT speaking.
    What do I mean by that? When Trenbolone is at ANYTIME part of your cycle, test is always below 200mg a week. When Trenbolone comes OUT of the equation, that’s when you may blast Testosterone to the moon.

    Final conclusion of my story?

    1) Always keep prolactin in check when using Trenbolone or Nandrolone
    2) Never use more than 200mg of Testosterone per week when using Trenbolone
    3) Don’t knock something till you try it. It may change your entire mindset of this game!
    4) Bump up Tren nice and slow...and get big and lean as ****!

  32. #792
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    tpe4ever, so you used aas, gained 50 pounds, went from 175-225. Then year later you were 185 again?

  33. #793
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    "Testosterone is roaming the streets looting stores, stealing cars, breaking windows.
    When Trenbolone is sitting at the front of the table, talking, everyone else shuts their mouths. That’s right. He is the ****ing boss and no one else is above him. Testosterone is like the boss’ bitch. The boss’ bitch is allowed to speak ONLY when the boss is NOT speaking."


    LOL!

  34. #794
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    Quote Originally Posted by oatmeal69 View Post
    "Testosterone is roaming the streets looting stores, stealing cars, breaking windows.
    When Trenbolone is sitting at the front of the table, talking, everyone else shuts their mouths. That’s right. He is the ****ing boss and no one else is above him. Testosterone is like the boss’ bitch. The boss’ bitch is allowed to speak ONLY when the boss is NOT speaking."


    LOL!
    E X A C T L Y!!! That is the one analogy I agree with the most, and I am going to start using that mre to explain Trenbolone lol. Best analogy ever.

  35. #795
    tpe4ever is offline New Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Antonious View Post
    tpe4ever, so you used aas, gained 50 pounds, went from 175-225. Then year later you were 185 again?
    Right, being my first and only cycle at that time. I got to keep the stretch marks though.

  36. #796
    tpe4ever is offline New Member
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    Thanks for the quick reply, I really appreciate being able to discuss my thoughts with you!


    Quote Originally Posted by Atomini View Post
    tpe4ever,

    Trenbolone is not an 'upper', it is not a stimulant. It has effects on the CNS in the same way Dihydrotestosterone does because it is extremely androgenic.
    I realize that the mechanism of effect is different from an actual CNS, but the outcome seems similar. Elevated heart rate, decreased ability to sleep, increased perspiration. I wonder why DHT does this, and if it affects everyone similarly.


    I think you are also not properly understanding the fundamentals behind utilizing TRT doses of Testosterone with Trenbolone. Trenbolone's side effects are greatly increased and exacerbated in a high Estrogen environment, which is what happens when you run Testosterone much higher than Trenbolone.
    Can you be specific about which effects are increased in the presence of elevated estrogen, and why?

    There is also strong speculation that Trenbolone will also exert its side effects more strongly in the presence of Testosterone and other androgens floating around the bloodstream.
    I take it that your quote from the other forum is the speculation that you were referring to? It looks awfully like bro-science to me. I gather that some estrogenic effects can be reduced when Test is reduced, but I can't help wonder if we are going overboard in an effort to reduce estrogen. There are always AI for those who need to being it down, after all, right? If estrogen is kept low, what effects can we expect to see from a combination of moderate test, moderate Tren ?

  37. #797
    Atomini's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tpe4ever View Post
    Thanks for the quick reply, I really appreciate being able to discuss my thoughts with you!




    I realize that the mechanism of effect is different from an actual CNS, but the outcome seems similar. Elevated heart rate, decreased ability to sleep, increased perspiration. I wonder why DHT does this, and if it affects everyone similarly.




    Can you be specific about which effects are increased in the presence of elevated estrogen, and why?



    I take it that your quote from the other forum is the speculation that you were referring to? It looks awfully like bro-science to me. I gather that some estrogenic effects can be reduced when Test is reduced, but I can't help wonder if we are going overboard in an effort to reduce estrogen. There are always AI for those who need to being it down, after all, right? If estrogen is kept low, what effects can we expect to see from a combination of moderate test, moderate Tren?
    Alright... here is my complete explanation to you about how Estrogen and Progesterone works. I have already discussed this in-depth in the middle of this thread somewhere, but here goes again:

    I'm going to start off here by mentioning that high Progesterone levels actually inhibit Prolactin production. With this being said, note that 19-nors such as Nandrolone and Trenbolone are classified as progestins. One would now think that Trenbolone should actually suppress Prolactin secretion. It makes logical sense considering the evidence.

    So in theory, tren should NOT raise Prolactin levels, however it absolutely does in most people. I can unequivocally say that tren rasies Prolactin levels because I have the bloodwork to prove it, and i've seen others too. And from the successful prevention/reduction of sides many others have experienced from using Prolactin-antagonists, it would seem that all of these people are not the exception. Now, when we delve into the world of AAS, we know that when modifications are made to the chemical strucutres of hormones to create different and more powerful anabolic steroids with different attributes, we end up with compounds that are supposed to act a certain way when they absolutely in real practicality show exactly the opposite! One such compound as an example is Anadrol ! Anadrol is a DHT-derivative, which makes it highly androgenic and unable to convert into estrogen - yet it produces heavy estrogenic side effects without aromatization. Other strange anomalies that have been found with other AAS is, for example, Anavar which has been found to cause gyno in a very small amount of people because it somehow has a binding affinity for the estradiol receptor!

    Whew, okay... The issue of Progestins and elevated Prolactin is an interesting one.

    I will first start off by saying that increases in Prolactin can be kept in control by keeping Estrogen levels from rising, and can also be controlled from the use of a Prolactin antagonist as you probably already know. What's also strange is that Progestins are actually SUPPOSED TO INHIBIT PROLACTIN SECRETION(1), but for some reason, Progestins such as Trenbolone and Nandrolone end up causing an increase in Prolactin in varying numbers of users. We all know how things are SUPPOSED to be in theory, but in practice it can be very different, especially in a game like this where every individual reacts differently to different compounds compared to the next person. Progestins, in vitro (and in theory) are actually INHIBITORS of Prolactin secretion. However... Trenbolone in varying degrees between users DOES increase Prolactin secretion and the only evidence we have unfortunately is anecdotal, but its there with bloodwork and all. Trenbolone SHOULDN'T cause Prolactin secretion and should actually suppress it due to its Progestogenic nature, but the fact is that in some people for unknown reasons it does increase Prolactin secretion, even in conditions where Estrogen levels are kept to a minimum and controlled. And the reason why I support using a Prolactin antagonist while running any Progestogenic 19-nor is to keep those levels down in the first place - Prolactin has an intense inhibitory effect on libido, sex drive, and the ability to achieve orgasms. We see constant reports of people having sex drive and libido issues when using compounds like Trenbolone and Deca , and when a Prolactin antagonist is inserted into the mix, it solves their libido issues.

    I ran Trenbolone once (with 400mg/week of Testosterone ) and waited until week 3 to begin using my standard 1mg/week of Cabergoline - no AI used. At the end of week 2 I had bloodwork done, and Prolactin was in the 300s. Taking 1mg of caber took me down to 4. What's strange is that bloodwork in an identical Trenbolone cycle later on with 400mg/week of Testosterone and no AI showed no increase in Prolactin. For unknown reasons in humans, the issue of Prolactin secretion is a dodgy one and different people respond differently at different times, even. As an overall precaution, I always run Cabergoline regardless on any Trenbolone cycle. I'll always run a Prolactin antagonist when running Trenbolone regardless. I will take zero chances with this.

    I wish there were studies done on humans with Trenbolone that we could look at and finally know the truth behind this, but unfortunately there aren't any and likely won't be any in the near future. There isn't a whole lot of data or solid data on Prolactin LEVELS raising from 19-Nors, but it is strongly speculated that the Estrogen receptor is a co-binding factor in Prolactin receptor expression (PRLR). This can make us far more sensitive to Prolactin even if its not increased or wildly out of range. This theory also fits well with the Estrogen receptor being the causitive factor in Prolactin issues. This is also why for the most part, controlling E2 levels should control Prolactin. It is ALSO why Trenbolone's side effects are reported to be far more pronounced when running it in a high Estrogen environment as a result of stacking Tren with high doses of an aromatizable compound, such as Testosterone (rather than keeping Testosterone at a TRT dose). The whole issue of Prolactin and what causes it to rise up and down is a dodgy one and varies between individuals as well.

    Even in William Llewellyn's Anabolics book, he states:

    "Trenbolone is not aromatized by the body, and is not measurably estrogenic. It is of note, however, that this steroid displays significant binding affinity for the Progesterone receptor (slightly stronger than Progesterone itself). The side effects associated with Progesterone are similar to those of estrogen including negative feedback inhibition of testosterone production and enhanced rate of fat storage. Progesterone also augments the stimulatory effect of estrogens on mammary tissue growth. There appears to be a strong synergy between these two hormones here, such that gynecomastia might even occur with the help of progestins, without excessive estrogen levels. The use of an anti-estrogen, which inhibits the estrogenic component of this disorder, is often sufficient to mitigate gynecomastia caused by progestational anabolic/androgenic steroids."

    Note that progestational side effects are more common when Trenbolone is being taken with other aromatizable steroids. As far as it goes with gyno... Gyno is also such a complex issue and the mechanism behind which it forms has so many different pathways. The causation is very complex, and its precise specifics are largely unknown, and a number of agents including estrogens, progestins, GH, IGF-1, and Prolactin may be involved. However, most authorities believe that a decreased (T+DHT)/E ratio is central to the development of gyno, and that blocking the effects of estrogen, or increasing T + DHT levels, is central to amending the problem. Prolactin is not a central issue, but it is one of the contributing factors should other necessary functions be set in place. There are many different factors in the overall complex mechanism that produces gyno. Therefore, if you can eliminate one or more of the gears in the machine that is responsible for the formation of gyno, you can effectively have a high chance of stopping, blocking, and preventing it.

    19-nors being Progestogenic compounds are known to increase a hormone in the body known as Prolactin. Prolactin levels above normal in men often results in side effects such as lactating nipples, erectile dysfunction, anorgasmia (inability to achieve orgasm) and endogenous Testosterone production suppression/shutdown. An interesting point to learn is the fact that Progesterone itself is known to inhibit Prolactin production(1), and that 19-nors such as Nandrolone and Trenbolone being classified as Progestins should serve to actually suppress Prolactin levels as i've mentioned earlier already. However, this is not the case as Nandrolone and Trenbolone are not Progesterone themselves Ė they are anabolic steroids that exhibit Progestogenic activity due to their chemical modifications and it is therefore very possible for these hormones to exhibit activity that is contrary to the activity of a similar hormone or parent hormone. It has been found that Nandrolone and Trenbolone can and do in fact increase Prolactin levels in the body.

    I have been saying this for a very long time, actually. When we delve into the world of AAS, we know that when modifications are made to the chemical strucutres of hormones to create different and more powerful anabolic steroids with different attributes, we end up with compounds that are supposed to act a certain way (sharing properties with their parent/progenitor hormone) when they absolutely in real practicality show exactly the opposite! One such compound as an example is Anadrol . Anadrol is a DHT-derivative, which makes it highly androgenic and unable to convert into Estrogen - yet it produces heavy estrogenic side effects without aromatization. Other strange anomalies that have been found with other AAS as well. Trenbolone is no different. Actually, it should be the poster child anabolic steroid for exhibitng anomalous effects. Nandrolone and Trenbolone are not Progesterone themselves Ė they are anabolic steroids that exhibit known/unknown Progestogenic activity due to their chemical modifications and it is therefore very possible for these hormones to exhibit activity that is contrary to the activity of a similar hormone or parent hormone.

    REFERENCES:
    1. Progesterone inhibits the estrogen-induced prolactin gene expression in the rat pituitary. Byung N. Choa, Yoo H. Suhb, Yong D. Yoonc, Chung C. Leea, Kyungjin Kim. Molecular and Cellular Endocrinology. Volume 93, Issue 1, May 1993, Pages 47Ė52.

  38. #798
    rljf11 is offline New Member
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    Atomini would you say its harder to keep gains after a tren cycle? My last tren cycle i ran at 70mg eod but it still don't have my sex drive back although my pct was, 1500iu hcg eod for 10days, nolva 20mg x 45days, clomid-100mg x 28days. i gained alot of bf after pct even tho my diet was spot on. I was planning on starting my new cycle in 4weeks...........

  39. #799
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    what are the strength gains on tren like?

  40. #800
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    Quote Originally Posted by rljf11 View Post
    Atomini would you say its harder to keep gains after a tren cycle? My last tren cycle i ran at 70mg eod but it still don't have my sex drive back although my pct was, 1500iu hcg eod for 10days, nolva 20mg x 45days, clomid-100mg x 28days. i gained alot of bf after pct even tho my diet was spot on. I was planning on starting my new cycle in 4weeks...........
    I have not had an issue keeping gains. As you might already know, keeping gains is dependent on three things:

    1. PCT - This is an obvious one. Don't do any PCT, or do a half-assed PCT, and you won't have the hormonal environment capable of supporting the new muscle mass.
    2. Nutrition and training - No brainer. Change your training around, start lowering calories below your new maintenance, and you will lose gains.
    3. How fast you put on the muscle - If you put on muscle too fast, it will come off too fast. The human body just cannot possibly hold on to rapid gains. This is one of the reasons why things like Anadrol don't work that well, and you lose gains just as fast as you put them on. You should aim for small, slow, and steady gains. I would much rather put on 12 lbs. of solid lean muscle in a 10 week cycle and keep it all than 25 lbs and lose half or more of it. The body needs to S L O W L Y adapt to body composition changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by kronik420 View Post
    what are the strength gains on tren like?
    Strength always goes through the roof with me. Most report the same thing too.

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