Atomini's all-you-need-to-know about TREN and how to use it effectively thread!

[tpe4ever]

Thanks for the great write up regarding progesterone, prolactin, estrogen, and the prevention of gyno (with citations, no less!). My perspective is that you have a strong academic background in medicine, along with a good number of cycles using Tren under your belt so you know what you like and you know what is going on "under the hood" to a greater extent than most of us. I certainly appreciate your sharing this perspective with me, and the greater community of athletes interested in making smart, effective choices to reach their athletic goals. I do have a few additional questions however.

Tren is noted as being strongly androgenic , with an effect that resembles DHT. There is discussion of how to prevent male pattern baldness (if you are prone), but I didn't notice any discussion of effect on the prostate. Perhaps I missed something, but can you comment on this?

I also noticed that in other articles, depressed T3 levels have been associated with an increase in prolactin. I recall that you mentioned running T3 along with a Tren cycle, but the comments were only about body fat levels rather than preventing a climb in prolactin levels. Do you feel that this might be another good way to prevent prolactin levels rising? If I could simply take T3/B6 and save the caber for if I get a tingle, well that seems like it might be a route to consider.

It was mentioned in a conversation with a doctor earlier on in this thread that Tren can cause harm to one of the heart valves (I don't recall the name). That certainly gives me pause...can you comment on that in more detail?

It seems like the undesirable effects show up either with increased doseage, or increased duration. How do you feel about increased duration with slightly decreased doseage?

If estrogen is kept low, is there a reason not to run more test with the Tren, to avoid the sides such as sweats, insomnia, and so on?

If you wanted a 12 week cycle, and Tren was included for at least part (if not all) of the cycle, how would you design it?

[Atomini]

Thanks for the compliments, I appreciate it. You are correct, I am currently in school in the middle of trying to work towards becoming a doctor. I'll answer your questions one by one,

Tren is noted as being strongly androgenic, with an effect that resembles DHT. There is discussion of how to prevent male pattern baldness (if you are prone), but I didn't notice any discussion of effect on the prostate. Perhaps I missed something, but can you comment on this?

All anabolic steroids exhibit the same effects as DHT, because all anabolic steroids are also androgenic to varying degrees. Some more, and some less. This is why these compounds are properly referred to as androgenic anabolic steroids (or anabolic androgenic steroids), AKA "AAS". The two attributes can be separated to an extent in an anabolic steroid , but they can never be completely dissociated. The baseline measurement of androgenic strength is a strength rating of 100, which is Testosterone 's androgenic rating (Testosterone is used as the baseline reference for measuring the anabolic and androgenic strengths of all anabolic steroids). Trenbolone 's androgenic strength rating is 500, which means it has binding affinity and binding strength to the androgen receptor five times that of Testosterone. When it comes to the prostate, the options here are extremely limited. The majority of Testosterone's androgenic effects on the skin, scalp, and prostate are actually attributed in parge part to its metabolite DHT, which is of course a much stronger androgen. This can be mitigated through the use of 5-alpha reductase (5AR) inhibitors such as Proscar, Finasteride, etc. The problem with Trenbolone is that it IS very androgenic in and of itself, and it does not interact with the 5AR enzyme, and therefore using a 5AR inhibitor will do nothing at all to mitigate its androgenic effects on the prostate. Honestly, there isn't too much to do concerning this. To those very concerned about their prostate health, my response is simply: don't use anabolic steroids if you are THAT concerned. OR, you can elect to stay away from the heavy androgens such as Trenbolone.

I also want to mention that it was originally thought decades ago that androgens and DHT were the sole cause and reason for prostate problems. Guess what? It is actually Estrogen that is the prime offender! Many studies have demonstrated that Estrogen is indeed a prostate cancer-causing agent that includes association of elevated levels of Estrogen with prostate cancer, changes in Estrogen receptor status in advanced prostate cancer, and rodent models and chimeric human tissue graft models showing induction of prostate cancer using estrogen plus Testosterone(1). Many different types of Estrogen receptors have been located on the prostate, which is where Estrogen binds to, and not only does Estrogen potentiate benign prostate issues but also malignant prostate cancer through receptor-mediated mechanisms, DNA-damaging, and potentially mutagenic activity of Estrogens and Estrogen-like compounds(2). This is just one of the many reasons (and a major, MAJOR one too) that Estrogen should always be controlled while on-cycle either through the use of an AI, or through TRT doses of Testosterone while using Trenbolone or any other non-aromatizable compound.

I also noticed that in other articles, depressed T3 levels have been associated with an increase in prolactin. I recall that you mentioned running T3 along with a Tren cycle, but the comments were only about body fat levels rather than preventing a climb in prolactin levels. Do you feel that this might be another good way to prevent prolactin levels rising? If I could simply take T3/B6 and save the caber for if I get a tingle, well that seems like it might be a route to consider.

I will admit that my knowledge here is limited. But I will say that in this particular instance, I don't believe that correlation equals causation. Prolactin increases, as far as I know, can and does cause decreases in T3 secretion. Increasing T3 will not lower Prolactin. T3 reductions are a result of Prolactin increases, not the other way around (as far as I know). Trenbolone itself exhibits suppressive effects on T3 secretion as well, whether or not Prolactin levels rise (other AAS that are not progestins do this also). B6 is very effective for lowering Prolactin, i've posted studies demonstrating this in this thread and you'll find them through the search function.

It was mentioned in a conversation with a doctor earlier on in this thread that Tren can cause harm to one of the heart valves (I don't recall the name). That certainly gives me pause...can you comment on that in more detail?

Yes, vasculitis (blood vessel cell damage) and vascular reactivity (blood vessel hardening). Studies have demonstrated that all anabolic steroids exhibit these effects, but in particular, 19-nor compounds (Nandrolone and Trenbolone) were found to cause blood vessel cell damage 11 times that of Testosterone by way of increasing the concentration of calcium in the endothelial cells of the blood vessels, and cellular calcium activates suicide enzymes(3). Nandrolone and its analogues (like TRENBOLONE) have been found to do this 11 times the rate that Testosterone does. Want to avoid this effect? Stay the hell away from Nandrolone, Trenbolone, or any 19-nor and stick to Testosterone for all of your cycles.

It seems like the undesirable effects show up either with increased doseage, or increased duration. How do you feel about increased duration with slightly decreased doseage?

I believe the effects will be cumulative and have the same net result in the end. Now, by increasing the duration you are now presenting even more issues that did not exist with shorter cycles, such as the issue of HPTA suppression that will continue for longer periods. Effects on the cardiovascular system will now remain longer too. It doesn't matter if you lower the Trenbolone dose, the negative effects on the cardiovascular system will still remain. I would not reccomend this if the person's first priority is safety. If safety is someone's last priority, then by all means go ahead!

If estrogen is kept low, is there a reason not to run more test with the Tren, to avoid the sides such as sweats, insomnia, and so on?

I think it can be done if you can keep Estrogen in control by other means, such as through the use of an AI. This is where my opinion differs from that broscience post I quoted earlier, about how the guy claimed that "Trenbolone will occupy receptors while Testosterone has no receptors to bind to and causes havoc in the rest of the body". Wrong. Studies have demonstrated that androgen receptors inside cells actually increase in number when androgenic anabolic steroids are present(4). So, not only does this disprove the mornic theory of receptor downregulation/saturation with anabolic steroids, but it also indicates that there are plenty of receptors available for both Testosterone AND Trenbolone to be able to bind to. So yes, as long as Estrogen is kept under control, it should be fine.

If you wanted a 12 week cycle, and Tren was included for at least part (if not all) of the cycle, how would you design it?

This is such an open-ended question, lol. You can run Trenbolone for all 12 weeks. I have done it before, but I don't reccomend it. Ideally it should be done for 8 - 10 weeks maximum. If one wishes to run Trenbolone for 12 weeks, I would tell the person to use the Enanthate variant at 400mg weekly alongside a TRT dose of Testosterone. If someone wishes to run it for 8-10 weeks out of 12 weeks total, they can run Trenbolone Acetate at 100mg EOD until week 8 or 10 alongside a TRT dose of Testosterone, and then for the final 2 weeks after that, they can increase Testosterone to 400 or 500mg weekly. But why would anyone want to do that? I would advise to just cut the whole cycle when the Trenbolone is cut. Extending the cycle for 2 mere weeks afterwards is stupid and pointless.


REFERENCES:
1. Estrogen action and prostate cancer. Jason L Nelles, Wen-Yang Hu, and Gail S Prins. Expert Rev Endocrinol Metab. 2011 May; 6(3): 437–451.
2. The Role of Estrogens in Prostate Carcinogenesis: A Rationale for Chemoprevention. Maarten C Bosland, DVSc, PhD. Rev Urol. 2005; 7(Suppl 3): S4–S10.
3. Detrimental effects of anabolic steroids on human endothelial cells. D'Ascenzo S, Millimaggi D, Di Massimo C, Saccani-Jotti G, Botrè F, Carta G, Tozzi-Ciancarelli MG, Pavan A, Dolo V. Toxicol Lett. 2007 Mar 8;169(2):129-36. Epub 2007 Jan 3.
4. Taking issue with the idea of androgen receptor down-regulation. Bryan Haycock MS. 2000 Jason Meuller and Anabolic Extreme

[tpe4ever]

Can you compare and contrast the following cycle combinations, specifically, is there any advantage to one versus the other depending on goals?

Also, is the short ester Nandrolone prone to unwanted long term storage in fat tissue as Deca can be?

TRT dose Test
Tren , doses depending on individual tolerance

AND

Test
Nandrolone Phenylpropionate
Mast

P.S. I had more to say but this site's filter is so confusing I deleted most of it just to get the post to happen. Hope it's not too confusing with the abbreviations...whew, I found it! Of course, most of my post is deleted now. It was the at symbol.

[tpe4ever]

Back during the cycle I described, the 5 days following my 3cc Deca dose seemed to be the most dramatic in terms of my gains. I was surprised. I wanted the shorter ester, but couldn't seem to find Nandrolone at the time. I can find it now with greater ease, and I have seen a T+Masteron +Nandrolone cycle noted as being very well thought of and it resembles what was once so successful for me. From what you said about calcification regarding cardio, it seems as though perhaps Nandrolone is less gentle than it is often reputed to be. As to the strength of Tren being 500, the effect in humans varies from the rating versus the T baseline which as I understand was not established using human subjects. Perhaps my body simply likes 19-Nor? It should be fascinating to see how Tren affects me.


Oh, here is part of what I had written, copied from the clipboard.

[Atomini]

Yes, Nandrolone is far less gentle than it was EVER made out to be. It was originally thought to be oh-so mild on the HPTA. Then we found out that it indeed isn't. Then we find out what I mentioned earlier about its effects on the cardiovascular system.

In regards to your question about Nandrolone Phenylpropionate in fat tissue, the answer is: yes, it seems as though the ability for Nandrolone to be highly fat soluble to the point where it will linger in your adipose tissue is due to the Nandrolone itself rather than the ester. I was about to decide to use NPP about 5 or 6 years ago when I was doing my research on it and found it has the exact same detection time as The Decanoate variant, and I purposely stayed away from using Deca for that reason. Once I found out NPP exhibits the same thing and that it seems to be something in Nandrolone's nature itself, I vowed to never ever use Nandrolone. I have never used it, nor will I ever for this reason. A hormone (or its metabolite) that lingers around in the body for over a whole year after use is not something I want to put in my body, thank you very much.

All anabolic and androgenic ratings of every anabolic steroid are determined in a laboratory regardless of animal type. I believe they determine these values in vitro and they examine the hormone's effects on the androgen receptor in muscle tissue regardless of whether or not it is bovine, rabbit, rat, mouse, or human androgen receptors.

The two cycles you described, when compared side by side, cannot be compared. No specific doses are given. The only thing I can say is that Nandrolone is much weaker than Trenbolone . Nandrolone happens to be ever so slightly stronger than Testosterone . The addition of Masteron doesn't do anything except enhance the "3D" look to the physique at low bodyfat percentages, it is a very weak compound itself. Without specific doses described, i'll go ahead and say the first listed cycle with Trenbolone is probably the best bang for your buck.

Might want to make a new thread on discussing Nandrolone so as to keep this thread on topic.

[tpe4ever]

In regards to your question about Nandrolone Phenylpropionate in fat tissue, the answer is: yes, it seems as though the ability for Nandrolone to be highly fat soluble to the point where it will linger in your adipose tissue is due to the Nandrolone itself rather than the ester. I was about to decide to use NPP about 5 or 6 years ago when I was doing my research on it and found it has the exact same detection time as The Decanoate variant, and I purposely stayed away from using Deca for that reason. Once I found out NPP exhibits the same thing and that it seems to be something in Nandrolone's nature itself, I vowed to never ever use Nandrolone. I have never used it, nor will I ever for this reason. A hormone (or its metabolite) that lingers around in the body for over a whole year after use is not something I want to put in my body, thank you very much.

I found this very interesting, but then I remembered that you said something earlier in this thread that seems to suggest it is the ester that is responsible. Perhaps you can clear that up?

the Decanoate ester is so long, it makes the molecule highly lipophilic (fat soluble). As a result, the compound can remain in your fat tissue for extended periods of time (far long even after you've finished your cycle). Many people have reported as long as YEARS later, getting sexual dysfunction issues (deca -dick, etc.) out of nowhere. This is because years later, there still existed Nandrolone Decanoate in the peron's adipose tissue and this was causing (from what I gather), prolactin release from the pituitary due to the person still having trace amounts of deca in their system.

When I read elsewhere about Tren , such as Bill Robert's writings, he seems to suggest that stacking an oral with Tren is highly advantageous. Do you see a value to adding any sort of oral to your suggested TRT+Tren stack?

[rljf11]

Sorry for the amount of q's but you have given me the answer i have been looking for every time so i look to you for guidance once more. Do you think there would be any benefit of adding 25mg proviron ed to a tren cycle (350mg tren a, 175mg test p, anavar 75mg ed) When on cycle i tend to get a bit down and have read that proviron can be used as a mood enhancer, also to help with libido issues associated with tren. I have also looked at adding in masteron which would improve my gains more than proviron but without the benefits of better mood and higher libido. (apologies that this isnt a direct trenbolone question) Thanks again

[Atomini]

I found this very interesting, but then I remembered that you said something earlier in this thread that seems to suggest it is the ester that is responsible. Perhaps you can clear that up?



When I read elsewhere about Tren, such as Bill Robert's writings, he seems to suggest that stacking an oral with Tren is highly advantageous. Do you see a value to adding any sort of oral to your suggested TRT+Tren stack?

I originally thought it had more to do with the ester as well, but if you take a look, the detection time of NPP and Nandrolone Decanoate are both almost the same. The Decanoate variant has a detection time of 17 - 18 months, while the Phenylpropionate is 12 - 15 months. I think that is very indicative that Nandrolone itself is the cause for this, not the ester.

As far as orals with Trenbolone goes, I have no opinion on that one either way, really. I advise against oral use whenever possible because of the added risks, vast changes in negative cholesterol profiles, etc. And just the general idea that Trenbolone's power will tend to dwarf most orals. My conclusion is: unless you are a competitive bodybuilder, Trenbolone is all you need.

Sorry for the amount of q's but you have given me the answer i have been looking for every time so i look to you for guidance once more. Do you think there would be any benefit of adding 25mg proviron ed to a tren cycle (350mg tren a, 175mg test p, anavar 75mg ed) When on cycle i tend to get a bit down and have read that proviron can be used as a mood enhancer, also to help with libido issues associated with tren. I have also looked at adding in masteron which would improve my gains more than proviron but without the benefits of better mood and higher libido. (apologies that this isnt a direct trenbolone question) Thanks again

I have never heard of Proviron used as a mood enhancer. Of you are having mood problems on cycle, you need to pinpoint and rectify the problem appropriately rather than attempt some Band-Aid solution. If your mood problems are associated with libido issues, it sounds like you might have a Prolactin problem whenever you use Trenbolone. Or it could be something else. But find these things out first before you resort to having to throw in Proviron.

[C3RB3RUS]

Guess, i'll need some prami! now i understand... At ATOMINI: I like your motto, "less is more." Below is my cycle scheduled for july. some items are there for the option while most will be required. i've been reading that my trendione is practically oral trenbolone . i was told i could inject the shit, [NOT going to.] i'm just worried, i'm going to start lactating, or worse! growing bewb tissue. I think it's better to strike at the headheart of the beast rather than its limbs, so prami seems a more than reasonable option over aromasin and nolvadex .
ingrediants:
CYCLE: Trendione and Methylstenbolone (Trenavar and ultradrol) 60 capsules
CYCLE: creatine
PCT: 1 bottle bottle of clomid
OPTION: 1 bottle of Nolvadex
OPTION: 1 bottle of aromasin
OPTION: 1 bottle of albuterol
CYCLE/PCT: 3 bottles of liver juice-liqua vade
CYCLE: multi vitamins,
CYCLE: vitamin d and k
CYCLE: vitamin b-6
CYCLE: vitamin c
CYCLE: niacin
CYCLE: betaine HCL
CYCLE: fish oil
OPTION: Red yeast rice
OPTION: hawthorne berry
CYCLE: taurine
CYCLE/PCT: BCAA
CYCLE: 1 gallon of water/day
CYCLE: 30 days off of work.
CYCLE/pct. tons of eggs, fish, mucho-vegetables, rolled oats, drinking Pineapple juice-staying away from salt.
CYCLE: i'll be using twice-a-day routines (8:00am and 5:00pm) from a great book I own.
to bad i'm not on vacation status everyday.

[Atomini]

Yeah, what you've got there is a prohormone, be very careful...

[tpe4ever]

The Decanoate variant has a detection time of 17 - 18 months, while the Phenylpropionate is 12 - 15 months. I think that is very indicative that Nandrolone itself is the cause for this, not the ester.

What is the detection time of Tren ? Does it differ much with different esters? "Tren Dick" outside of cycles doesn't seem to be an issue? I've seen people say that due to being a 19-nor, Tren binds with and is stored in fat and stays in the body forever just like Nandrolone .

[RyanGreg]

Regaqrding HCG on tren you advise to use it only in first week of PCT not during cycle? I though HCG was best to be used during cycle? Can you please explain?

[Atomini]

What is the detection time of Tren? Does it differ much with different esters? "Tren Dick" outside of cycles doesn't seem to be an issue? I've seen people say that due to being a 19-nor, Tren binds with and is stored in fat and stays in the body forever just like Nandrolone.

Nope, I believe Trenbolone 's detection time is 4 - 5 months. That is for Acetate. I do not know what the Enanthate or Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate esters detection times are, but I would say maybe a couple months longer. But it is nowhere near the same detection time as Nandrolone .

Regaqrding HCG on tren you advise to use it only in first week of PCT not during cycle? I though HCG was best to be used during cycle? Can you please explain?

Please do a search through this thread on that, as I have answered this question more times than I can count here.

[RyanGreg]

Please do a search through this thread on that, as I have answered this question more times than I can count here.

I did but it shows no results when searcing for HCG .. I have looked through many pages of this thread and not seen anything apart from yur post on the home page saying that HCG should not be used on cycle but just in the first week of PCT.

Im just curious as to why this is?

[Back In Black]

I did but it shows no results when searcing for HCG .. I have looked through many pages of this thread and not seen anything apart from yur post on the home page saying that HCG should not be used on cycle but just in the first week of PCT.

Im just curious as to why this is?

Did you turn pro yet? If not when is your pro qualifier?

[Atomini]

I did but it shows no results when searcing for HCG .. I have looked through many pages of this thread and not seen anything apart from yur post on the home page saying that HCG should not be used on cycle but just in the first week of PCT.

Im just curious as to why this is?

I just searched through this whole thread myself for you and found it. See post #300 in this thread (and the posts shortly before and after it).

[rxmuscle]

I am 35 YO and have been on HRT for about 3 years now for low testosterone replacement . I am currently taking Test Cyp 200 mg/wk along with Arimidex 1 mg on Mondays & Thursdays. I've been considering doing a first cycle and had picked up some Test Prop and Tren A to run a first cycle with. After having read through this blog, I was curious to know what your thoughts were on just adding Tren A to my current HRT therapy regimen since you had suggested to run a low dose Test anyways along side of Tren. I also have caber on hand as well and also some T3, but wasn't so sure if I was even going to bother with the T3 right now.

[Atomini]

I am 35 YO and have been on HRT for about 3 years now for low testosterone replacement. I am currently taking Test Cyp 200 mg/wk along with Arimidex 1 mg on Mondays & Thursdays. I've been considering doing a first cycle and had picked up some Test Prop and Tren A to run a first cycle with. After having read through this blog, I was curious to know what your thoughts were on just adding Tren A to my current HRT therapy regimen since you had suggested to run a low dose Test anyways along side of Tren. I also have caber on hand as well and also some T3, but wasn't so sure if I was even going to bother with the T3 right now.

My suggestion is that if it is going to be your first cycle, don't do it. I would instead suggest to simply blast at a higher Testosterone dose, and see how you respond to supraphysiological doses of Testosterone before you mess with 19-nors like Trenbolone .

[rxmuscle]

I appreciate the advice. Trying to work with what I currently have, how would something like this do??
Test Cyp 200 mg/wk + Test Prop 100 mg on Monday/Wed/Friday for a total dose of 500 mg/week for 12 weeks???

[rxmuscle]

Or just drop the HRT Test Cyp all together and run the Test Prop 150 mg EOD??

[Spyder315]

Atomini. I've read threw this thread and have learned a wealth of knowledge. But still looking for a solid answer to a question. Hear is where I'm at. Currently have 6 cycles over a 5 year span. This cycle I'm gearing up for will be my first with Tren A. Since its my first w Tren. I'm only running test P and Tren A. I'm currently on TRT at 200mg of cyp a wk. I bumped it up to 400 split mon- thurs. when I start the blast I'm dropping the cyp. What is a good dose for a first time prop/ Tren mg by mg. I know you said run more Tren then test so I'm gonna go with that advise. Would a 50/75 EOD yield good results?

[RyanGreg]

I just searched through this whole thread myself for you and found it. See post #300 in this thread (and the posts shortly before and after it).

Thansk I went back and took a read of post #300

Here is some things I heard on the internet this is why I was thinking hmmmm

""HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production."

When people say the first week or two of PCT i think what youre confusing is when they run long esters, theyre using hcg 2 weeks after they pin. Should be used to keep the boys full during cycle or you can blast at the end of cycle to get things going but it's counterproductive in PCT"

and

"I am so glad to read this post. Hcg as stated needs to be run when you are already suppressing natty test levels from exogenous testosterone for 2 reasons. To maintain testicular function while your body isn't producing lh and becuase during PCT it is important to stop the negative feedback loop of your endocrine system. Hcg mimics lh production so as long as your body sees elevated lh and test in your body you won't produce lh to get the testies firing again."

and

"hcg and hmg both mimic LH so it is common sense your body would recognize that and say "shit we can just stop producing lh and fsh" .. HCG causes a negative feed loop to which suppress LH. HCG is an LH analog.

Your hypothalamus sends a chemical signal to your pituitary gland called GnRH, this once hits the pituitary gland sends another chemical signal to your leydig cells called LH and FSH, one is to make sperm and one is to make testosterone.

If HCG mimics LH and to some extent FSH why would the body manufacture LH and FSH in the presence of adding it exogenously??? hmmmmmm...

If your not producing alot of LH and FSH but have near normal testosterone levels then this suggests to me that your leydig cells are sensitised due to low LH.
If this is in fact the case then adding HCG will raise testosterone and at the same time probably make your leydig cells desensitize leaving you with lower test levels due to the leydig cells not being as sensitive.

hence thats why you run the hcg/hmg BEFORE your PCT as a kickstart. then once you start PCT and run it the hcg will be out of your system and the LH will jump as well. and now you will have good levels of LH, FSH, and test in line. hence you would be on your way to recovery and feel so much better on PCT then lets say going through a hellish PCT with double digits test levels.

so use hcg but use it correctly. the stuff works great and should be used every injectable cycle IMO. but should never be abused. once you come off the hcg and it tapers away your LH and FSH will begin bouncing beautifully as you enjoy PCT. then once you have a rock solid HPTA you can go back on cycle again. thats the way its done people.

hope this all makes sense and my rant came out properly, hope i didn't confuse people further lol "







What do you have to say about that? Just want to hear your opinion.
Thanks Atomini.

[Atomini]

Or just drop the HRT Test Cyp all together and run the Test Prop 150 mg EOD??

Why wouldn't you just bump up your Testosterone Cypionate up to 500mg per week? Why bother messing around with Propionate ? You're just making things more complicated for yourself, and doing Propionate only on monday/wednesday/friday is going to make your blood levels a rollercoaster. If you are already using Cypionate for your HRT, just increase it to 500mg (blasting) and then when you're done your 12 weeks, go back to your TRT dose (cruising).

Atomini. I've read threw this thread and have learned a wealth of knowledge. But still looking for a solid answer to a question. Hear is where I'm at. Currently have 6 cycles over a 5 year span. This cycle I'm gearing up for will be my first with Tren A. Since its my first w Tren. I'm only running test P and Tren A. I'm currently on TRT at 200mg of cyp a wk. I bumped it up to 400 split mon- thurs. when I start the blast I'm dropping the cyp. What is a good dose for a first time prop/ Tren mg by mg. I know you said run more Tren then test so I'm gonna go with that advise. Would a 50/75 EOD yield good results?

Do 25/75 of Testosterone /Trenbolone respectively instead. 50mg EOD of Testosterone might be on the higher side and might elicit more aromatization I have found 25mg EOD to be the sweet spot, for myself at least.

Thansk I went back and took a read of post #300

Here is some things I heard on the internet this is why I was thinking hmmmm

""HCG administration post-cycle is common practice among bodybuilders in the belief that it will aid the natural testosterone recovery, but this theory is unfounded and also counterproductive. The rapid rise in both testosterone, and thus oestrogen due to aromatisation, from the administration of HCG causes further inhibition of the HPTA (Hypothalamic/Pituitary/Testicular Axis - feedback loop discussed above); this actually worsens the recovery situation. HCG does not restore the natural testosterone production."

When people say the first week or two of PCT i think what youre confusing is when they run long esters, theyre using hcg 2 weeks after they pin. Should be used to keep the boys full during cycle or you can blast at the end of cycle to get things going but it's counterproductive in PCT"

and

"I am so glad to read this post. Hcg as stated needs to be run when you are already suppressing natty test levels from exogenous testosterone for 2 reasons. To maintain testicular function while your body isn't producing lh and becuase during PCT it is important to stop the negative feedback loop of your endocrine system. Hcg mimics lh production so as long as your body sees elevated lh and test in your body you won't produce lh to get the testies firing again."

and

"hcg and hmg both mimic LH so it is common sense your body would recognize that and say "shit we can just stop producing lh and fsh" .. HCG causes a negative feed loop to which suppress LH. HCG is an LH analog.

Your hypothalamus sends a chemical signal to your pituitary gland called GnRH, this once hits the pituitary gland sends another chemical signal to your leydig cells called LH and FSH, one is to make sperm and one is to make testosterone.

If HCG mimics LH and to some extent FSH why would the body manufacture LH and FSH in the presence of adding it exogenously??? hmmmmmm...

If your not producing alot of LH and FSH but have near normal testosterone levels then this suggests to me that your leydig cells are sensitised due to low LH.
If this is in fact the case then adding HCG will raise testosterone and at the same time probably make your leydig cells desensitize leaving you with lower test levels due to the leydig cells not being as sensitive.

hence thats why you run the hcg/hmg BEFORE your PCT as a kickstart. then once you start PCT and run it the hcg will be out of your system and the LH will jump as well. and now you will have good levels of LH, FSH, and test in line. hence you would be on your way to recovery and feel so much better on PCT then lets say going through a hellish PCT with double digits test levels.

so use hcg but use it correctly. the stuff works great and should be used every injectable cycle IMO. but should never be abused. once you come off the hcg and it tapers away your LH and FSH will begin bouncing beautifully as you enjoy PCT. then once you have a rock solid HPTA you can go back on cycle again. thats the way its done people.

hope this all makes sense and my rant came out properly, hope i didn't confuse people further lol "







What do you have to say about that? Just want to hear your opinion.
Thanks Atomini.

Yes, Leydig cell desensitization is a real issue, but if you are running short cycles (8 - 10 weeks), you shouldn't have to use HCG unless you are someone who is extremely sensitive to HPTA suppression or have extreme difficulty recovering the HPTA from a cycle. This is why I say keep cycle lengths as short as possible. That post you quoted, wherever it is from, seems to be obsolete and/or outdated information. There is no mention there at all about using SERMs and an AI (ESPECIALLY AN AI, because you need it to mitigate the increased Estrogen as a result of HCG). That thing you quoted sounds like something from the 1980s. From what I read, it is basically telling people that HCG-only is a good PCT. HCG should never under any circumstances be utilizied on its own for PCT. EVER.

[dulich1989]

great post, ive been terrified of tren for some time, but with your post, I feel I have the knowledge i once lacked to dive in.

[Antonious]

Atomini, if cycle is test 100/tren 350 mgs a week. Do I need to purchase aromasin /arimidex for just in case, or it will not be necessary at all? Will use caber too.

[Atomini]

Atomini, if cycle is test 100/tren 350 mgs a week. Do I need to purchase aromasin/arimidex for just in case, or it will not be necessary at all? Will use caber too.

You should not need an AI when using Testosterone at TRT doses of 100mg weekly. I always reccomend to keep it on-hand just in case, because you never know what could happen! An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, and it doesn't hurt to be extra prepared.

[Antonious]

Thanks bro

[tpe4ever]

Can you suggest a dosing schedule, if one is to use Tren Enanthate , or Tren hex/Parabolin?

For example
100mg eod Tren Ace
Or
??? Tren Enanthate
Or
??? Parabolin

[Atomini]

Can you suggest a dosing schedule, if one is to use Tren Enanthate , or Tren hex/Parabolin?

For example
100mg eod Tren Ace
Or
??? Tren Enanthate
Or
??? Parabolin

Any anabolic steroid with the Enanthate ester attached should be pinned twice weekly, with each shot spaced evenly apart. For example, Monday and Thursday.

Same thing for Trenbolone Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate (Parabolan ), it has a half-life of 14 days.

[tpe4ever]

Any anabolic steroid with the Enanthate ester attached should be pinned twice weekly, with each shot spaced evenly apart. For example, Monday and Thursday.

Same thing for Trenbolone Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate (Parabolan), it has a half-life of 14 days.

Yes, but at what dosage? The ester weights affect the amount of Tren contained in the compound, and you seem good at breaking down blood levels versus half lives. So the question is, if you want to maintain comparable blood levels to the Tren Ace 100mg eod schedule that seems to be a popular and common dosage, how would you need to handle the other esters to maintain comparable blood levels?

[tpe4ever]

Here is my initial cycle feedback during my first Tren cycle.

I am at week 3. The following is what I am taking.

2 grams test/wk eod
50-100 grams Tren eod
200mg T3 daily
25MG Extremestane daily
0mg Pramipexole daily (have it handy just in case)

So far my feedback on this cycle is that the Tren isn't my favorite thing just yet. I'm varying from 50-100mg to see what the sides are for me. So far, 50mg means no sides. 75mg means my forehead gets feverish and I sweat more easily. 100mg means my sinus gets congested in addition to the other sides that I get at 75mg. Otherwise, I am experiencing no sides. My recovery time is great as you'd expect, and I'm very energetic even though I'm dieting. We'll see how it goes.

[Brick]

Here is my initial cycle feedback during my first Tren cycle.

I am at week 3. The following is what I am taking.

2 grams test/wk eod
50-100 grams Tren eod
200mg T3 daily
25MG Extremestane daily
0mg Pramipexole daily (have it handy just in case)

So far my feedback on this cycle is that the Tren isn't my favorite thing just yet. I'm varying from 50-100mg to see what the sides are for me. So far, 50mg means no sides. 75mg means my forehead gets feverish and I sweat more easily. 100mg means my sinus gets congested in addition to the other sides that I get at 75mg. Otherwise, I am experiencing no sides. My recovery time is great as you'd expect, and I'm very energetic even though I'm dieting. We'll see how it goes.

2 grams of test a week? Are you a professional bber or a monster?

[oatmeal69]

LOL, 100 grams of Tren eod = H U L K!!

[Atomini]

Yes, but at what dosage? The ester weights affect the amount of Tren contained in the compound, and you seem good at breaking down blood levels versus half lives. So the question is, if you want to maintain comparable blood levels to the Tren Ace 100mg eod schedule that seems to be a popular and common dosage, how would you need to handle the other esters to maintain comparable blood levels?

You are thinking into this far too much. To maintain stable blood levels, just inject any longer estered anabolics twice weekly spaced evenly apart. I've done the calculations for you of how much pure Trenbolone is left over after the esters are removed from each variant. You can base your doses off these:

In 100mg Trenbolone Acetate = 87mg Trenbolone
In 100mg Trenbolone Enanthate = 70mg Trenbolone
In 100mg Trenbolone Hexahydrobenzylcarbonate = 70mg Trenbolone

Here is my initial cycle feedback during my first Tren cycle.

I am at week 3. The following is what I am taking.

2 grams test/wk eod
50-100 grams Tren eod
200mg T3 daily
25MG Extremestane daily
0mg Pramipexole daily (have it handy just in case)

So far my feedback on this cycle is that the Tren isn't my favorite thing just yet. I'm varying from 50-100mg to see what the sides are for me. So far, 50mg means no sides. 75mg means my forehead gets feverish and I sweat more easily. 100mg means my sinus gets congested in addition to the other sides that I get at 75mg. Otherwise, I am experiencing no sides. My recovery time is great as you'd expect, and I'm very energetic even though I'm dieting. We'll see how it goes.

Something is totally wrong here. How are you not keeling over on the floor dead yet?

50 - 100 GRAMS of Trenbolone every other day???

200 MILIGRAMS of T3 daily????

[Android-]

Q: some unexpected sides ''' week 5 of a 10 week Tren E and Test E cycle,
My appetite is massive, this happened in first days , I'm up 10lbs and its all good''
But now I'm tired all the time,,
Sleeping we'll at night, but tired during day, no energy for the gym,,,,
What's your thoughts ,,
(250 TrenE, trt test, and taking caber)

[Antonious]

how do you all pin 100 mg a week of test prop? EOD or every 3 days?

[Atomini]

how do you all pin 100 mg a week of test prop? EOD or every 3 days?

25mg EOD is how I do it.

[tpe4ever]

2 grams of test a week? Are you a professional bber or a monster?

My body produces a lot of test by default, so it takes injecting a lot to get results. It does surprise me that I never seem to get sides at all, even acne, since I did get it in my teens.

[tpe4ever]

Oops, that was supposed to read mg/Tren , and mcg T3.

[Android-]

Dr Atomini,
I'm enjoying my first sampling of Tren ... Thanks to your excellent thread info,
1ml tren e and 1/2 ml test e caber WK'

Week 5 , I have already reached my objective (10lbs lean muscle )
No real negative sides ,,, night sweats just hit
My metabolism is running wild , eating every two hrs , and getting lean. This is amazing ..
No significant strength gains,

YES, I do have a question..
Into the 4th week I became tired, little energy during the day, (sleeping well at night)

Its taking a lot of coffee to get my workout in drive,,
Am I missing something , ? What can I tweak to bring energy up ?
''Any input appreciated''