ESTROGEN - The other Anabolic Hormone

[lightitup]

Bump good thread ....I don’t think most people understand about GLUT 4 let alone the other 14 GLUTs we have in our body but your example was spot on the plasma membrane that deals with the GLUT 4 receptor is critical for getting those nutritents in minuplating it is the key for better growth

[fit_deskjocky]

So Nolva dosage at 10mgs per day as a good go by until midcycle bloods to determine the actual estrogen levels?

[GearHeaded]

So Nolva dosage at 10mgs per day as a good go by until midcycle bloods to determine the actual estrogen levels?

personally, if your an advanced user I think that mid cycle bloods are useless. theres zero reason for me to know my mid cycle estrogen or test levels.
for a new user just getting started, it can have some benefit so he has some idea how he responds to the hormones. what his SHBG, free test, total test, E2, etc. loosk like off say 500mg of test..

for me when my E gets over say the 200++ range, I know this just by feel, I don't need bloods. I'll hit letro for 2 weeks or so then continue on cycle just fine (this would generally only be needed if running over 1.5g of test along with other estrogenic compounds)

as for 10mg of Nolva per day on cycle.. that should cover 'most' guys the entire cycle in regards to blunting estrogen receptors where we want them blunted, and allowing estrogen receptors to be activated where we want them activated. it does not matter much if our total blood levels of E are elevated above normal range (in fact I would consider that a good thing when trying to grow).

[Obs]

personally, if your an advanced user I think that mid cycle bloods are useless. theres zero reason for me to know my mid cycle estrogen or test levels.
for a new user just getting started, it can have some benefit so he has some idea how he responds to the hormones. what his SHBG, free test, total test, E2, etc. loosk like off say 500mg of test..

for me when my E gets over say the 200++ range, I know this just by feel, I don't need bloods. I'll hit letro for 2 weeks or so then continue on cycle just fine (this would generally only be needed if running over 1.5g of test along with other estrogenic compounds)

as for 10mg of Nolva per day on cycle.. that should cover 'most' guys the entire cycle in regards to blunting estrogen receptors where we want them blunted, and allowing estrogen receptors to be activated where we want them activated. it does not matter much if our total blood levels of E are elevated above normal range (in fact I would consider that a good thing when trying to grow).

3:00-5:00
I like the entire video but those two minutes sum up what I want to say to people 99% of the time on forums.

This guy runs 10-20mg of nolva on cycle and no AI.

I guess I have a different mindset than most guys coming in. When I started my first cycle I didnt give a fuck how bad the sides were I wasn't gonna stop. I injected with reused cattle needles and had never heard of AI or Hcg .

I see guys having problems on 500-700mg of test only and think.... Probably you should stop now. You aren't gonna get anywhere.

[Obs]

"I just get really anxious!"
"I feel bad!"

Me too.
Up the dosage maybe that will help.
I never took this shit for good health or feel good.
I took it to be a freak.

I understand that there is the average AAS user out there that really wont ever get much of anywhere they just want to look good.
I really want to show some the door though.
If you are too much of a pussy to stick a needle in yourself how extreme can your training be?
I mean really...

If you can't deal with being anxious or feeling sluggish to run a cycle, how in the fuck are you getting to failure?

I have run into some problems at extreme doses. I didnt puss out I backed off for a bit and worked my way back in. Thats what happens when you frontload a gram and a half of tren and eat 200-300 mg of adrol.

This shit is for high end performers. People who live with pain and discomfort every day. You won't always feel like a million bucks. Get over it or get the fuck on with normal life and trt doses.

[GearHeaded]

yep, ain't no one of us have to be here or have to be on gear. negative sides are our own choosing. we chose to do this , we have the ability and benefit and privilege to do this.
I could complain about my hands being so damn numb and achy right now that I can barely hold onto a cup of coffee cause of all the HGH and shit I'm taking. but hell no whats there to complain about , I chose this

[Obs]

yep, ain't no one of us have to be here or have to be on gear. negative sides are our own choosing. we chose to do this , we have the ability and benefit and privilege to do this.
I could complain about my hands being so damn numb and achy right now that I can barely hold onto a cup of coffee cause of all the HGH and shit I'm taking. but hell no whats there to complain about , I chose this

Lol I bitch on occasion but I also talk about why God put butthole so close to womens vaginas. I wouldnt stop short of a goal. So unless I die first... I will be on a lot of shit.

I also think a lot of guys exaggerate and imagine sides. This is only because I know how most people are. Placebos are strong as fuck.

[GearHeaded]

Lol I bitch on occasion but I also talk about why God put butthole so close to womens vaginas. I wouldnt stop short of a goal. So unless I die first... I will be on a lot of shit.

I also think a lot of guys exaggerate and imagine sides. This is only because I know how most people are. Placebos are strong as fuck.

the other thing is when guys get on drugs that are very side effect free, like EQ or Primo, they consider it weak cause they aren't getting negative sides . lol come on like negative side effects are what build muscle. OR they'll exaggerate the negative sides of a compound and think its working really great for them, tricking themselves when the mirror and their lifts say otherwise.

[Capebuffalo]

"I just get really anxious!"
"I feel bad!"

Me too.
Up the dosage maybe that will help.
I never took this shit for good health or feel good.
I took it to be a freak.

I understand that there is the average AAS user out there that really wont ever get much of anywhere they just want to look good.
I really want to show some the door though.
If you are too much of a pussy to stick a needle in yourself how extreme can your training be?
I mean really...

If you can't deal with being anxious or feeling sluggish to run a cycle, how in the fuck are you getting to failure?

I have run into some problems at extreme doses. I didnt puss out I backed off for a bit and worked my way back in. Thats what happens when you frontload a gram and a half of tren and eat 200-300 mg of adrol.

This shit is for high end performers. People who live with pain and discomfort every day. You won't always feel like a million bucks. Get over it or get the fuck on with normal life and trt doses.

Fuck. I can’t tell you the last time I actually felt good or healthy. But I am looking better.

[Obs]

Fuck. I can’t tell you the last time I actually felt good or healthy. But I am looking better.

Zackly.
Something about this doesn't reach mist guys. You have the estrogen of a pregnat woman and more test than an angus bull. You may feel a little funny sometimes.

[Capebuffalo]

Zackly.
Something about this doesn't reach mist guys. You have the estrogen of a pregnat woman and more test than an angus bull. You may feel a little funny sometimes.

I mean damn. I’ve pinned something. And it went wrong. I’d be laying on the floor thinking they will find me here dead. 15 min I pull through. You know what I do the next day? The same fucking thing. Just hoping for a better result.

I’ve drained 15 ml of green sludge from my shoulder myself at work. And start pounding antibiotics. This is not a glamorous lifestyle. Force feeding till you’re sick. Starving yourself until you almost pass out. It’s not for everybody that is for damn sure.

[Obs]

I mean damn. I’ve pinned something. And it went wrong. I’d be laying on the floor thinking they will find me here dead. 15 min I pull through. You know what I do the next day? The same fucking thing. Just hoping for a better result.

I’ve drained 15 ml of green sludge from my shoulder myself at work. And start pounding antibiotics. This is not a glamorous lifestyle. Force feeding till you’re sick. Starving yourself until you almost pass out. It’s not for everybody that is for damn sure.

It was a bad day for your mitochondria...

[kelkel]

I also talk about why God put butthole so close to womens vaginas. .

Words of wisdom right there.

[Obs]

Words of wisdom right there.

If you ever seek to find the real questions... I am here.
I have theories.

[MS_PHARM]

High doses of T + Deca + DBol means obviously high level of E2, and you say that 10 mg of Nolva is just enough to prevent some sides, but that's not all what's satisfying, IMO.

What about another issues when on high doses of wet compounds? E2 skyrockets so you have your SERM targeted to inter alia breast and bones, you get what you want the most - heavy gains, but what about libido and blood pressure? How do you perform your intercourse on E2 level above 200 pmol/L? Just asking, personally I'm castrated without moderate AI doses.

[AlphaMindz]

Lol I bitch on occasion but I also talk about why God put butthole so close to womens vaginas. I wouldnt stop short of a goal. So unless I die first... I will be on a lot of shit.

I also think a lot of guys exaggerate and imagine sides. This is only because I know how most people are. Placebos are strong as fuck.

LMAO. Why would an architect put a septic tank so close to a playground? Cause sometimes it's more fun to play in shit hahaha!

[kelkel]

If you ever seek to find the real questions... I am here.
I have theories.

You know that's exactly what Charles Manson said.

[kelkel]

High doses of T + Deca + DBol means obviously high level of E2, and you say that 10 mg of Nolva is just enough to prevent some sides, but that's not all what's satisfying, IMO.

What about another issues when on high doses of wet compounds? E2 skyrockets so you have your SERM targeted to inter alia breast and bones, you get what you want the most - heavy gains, but what about libido and blood pressure? How do you perform your intercourse on E2 level above 200 pmol/L? Just asking, personally I'm castrated without moderate AI doses.

Not everyone is effected in the same manner. Trial and error. If it doesn't work for you adjust it like you have. We all learn along the way.

[AlphaMindz]

GH this post reminds me of back when we used to make tren out of finaplix pellets as the vet store also had estradiol pellets cause when they inject the cattle with tren pellets they ALSO inject them with estradiol pellets due to the reasons you've outlined in your post.

Interesting stuff, no doubt.

I can definitely see the anabolic benefits of doing this for shear mass as elevated e2 will enable growth factors like igf-1 to be maximized, and you are correct in saying that estrogen sensitizes AR receptors as that is a fact.

I guess the take away for me is using this knowledge in a productive manner while keeping in mind health risks of letting estrogen stay too high for too long (in males). It does make perfect sense to me that it's about the RATIO of these hormones, t, e and dht. Finding the perfect ratio is going to be optimal but my question would be HOW to do this without running into too many e related sides...?

I currently do a cc of test and eq eod and a 1/2 cc of winny eod while taking 1mg adex e3d. I've been on that combo for a while now and seemed to have hit a plateau but when I stopped eating so damn clean and "dirtied" up my diet a little bit I suddenly started growing like crazy!

Guess it's time for blood work (which I'm actually over do for tbh) and see exactly where I'm at. I feel like if I stopped taking my AI I wouldn't get any gyno sides as my body is so used to the amount of test by now. I'll be honest and share that I've forgotten to take my AI before and before I know it it's been a week without taking it and nothing happened. I feel like the only thing that would change is I'd start getting a little bloated since my diet does have some "dirty" foods in it (still eat plenty of nutrient dense foods, fruits, kale, and healthy fats as well) and I probably would notice more of a weight increase. I don't feel like I'd start getting nipple sensitivity this deep into a higher test run (it's at about 900mgs atm) as my body's very used to this level or androgens.

These are the listed side effects of high estrogen in men -
Sexual dysfunction (low libido, decreased morning erections, decreased erectile function)
Enlarged breasts
Lower urinary tract symptoms associated with benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH)[2]
Increased abdominal fat (can also be a symptom of low estrogen)
Feeling tired
Loss of muscle mass
Emotional disturbances, especially depression
Type 2 diabetes

So looks like the gear will offset all of those except maybe emotional disturbance, depression, BPH and type 2 diabetes (although IME most bodybuilder's who DO develop diabetes is from excessive HGH use for very long periods of time and it's usually not actual diabetes they get but rather worn out pancreatic beta cells which can be revived with exo slin like lantus for a period of time to allow rejuvenation of those cells).

So in summary it seems like the only real concern of letting e2 stay high for extended periods of time if BPH... Thoughts on this??

Great post man very interesting topic!

[GearHeaded]

great write up Aphamindz . I'll respond better when I have more time. I just want to make this quick point.

Elevated Estrogen in men, from a medical point of view, has a lot of the negative side effects that you listed. HOWEVER these are all primarily in the context of an estrogen dominant setting (which is where normal men with elevated estrogen are) and NOT in the context of an AAS user injecting 3 grams of gear a week and having androgen levels in the tens our thousands ng/dl range.

high levels of elevated androgens are going to off set a lot of these negative estrogen side effects. your estrogen levels could be off the charts , but as long as your androgen levels are off the charts even more, the sides can be offset.

are you aware that for years guys have used Halotestin when running highly estrogenic compounds to off set gyno and other estrogen related sides. why? its not like Halo is anti-estrogenic in any way . its because Halo is the most Androgenic compound we have. something like 15x more androgenic then test. high androgen levels offset negative effects of high estrogen, and thats why halo can be used as a tool.


so just wanted to set the context up here about high estrogen side effects. you have one set of side effects that effect most all guys, but you have estrogen not effecting guys all that negatively who are using high levels of exogenous androgens while estrogen levels are high.
so its person and context dependent.

[Chrisp83TRT]

I’m very estrogen sensitive...

My question is what do I do to combat Gyno sides while having a decent amount of Esto in the body. That’s what is concerning for me.


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[GearHeaded]

I’m very estrogen sensitive...

My question is what do I do to combat Gyno sides while having a decent amount of Esto in the body. That’s what is concerning for me.

Run a daily dose of Nolvadex while on cycle. keep Letro on hand.. your blood levels of estrogen will elevate allowing you to get a lot fo the positive benefits of higher estrogen (like good cholesterol, IGF production, etc), but blunting the negative side effects at the receptor sites of things like breast tissue.

[AlphaMindz]

great write up Aphamindz . I'll respond better when I have more time. I just want to make this quick point.

Elevated Estrogen in men, from a medical point of view, has a lot of the negative side effects that you listed. HOWEVER these are all primarily in the context of an estrogen dominant setting (which is where normal men with elevated estrogen are) and NOT in the context of an AAS user injecting 3 grams of gear a week and having androgen levels in the tens our thousands ng/dl range.

high levels of elevated androgens are going to off set a lot of these negative estrogen side effects. your estrogen levels could be off the charts , but as long as your androgen levels are off the charts even more, the sides can be offset.

are you aware that for years guys have used Halotestin when running highly estrogenic compounds to off set gyno and other estrogen related sides. why? its not like Halo is anti-estrogenic in any way . its because Halo is the most Androgenic compound we have. something like 15x more androgenic then test. high androgen levels offset negative effects of high estrogen, and thats why halo can be used as a tool.


so just wanted to set the context up here about high estrogen side effects. you have one set of side effects that effect most all guys, but you have estrogen not effecting guys all that negatively who are using high levels of exogenous androgens while estrogen levels are high.
so its person and context dependent.

Yup I gotcha that's why I wrote this - "So looks like the gear will offset all of those except maybe emotional disturbance, depression, BPH and type 2 diabetes" lol or were you referring to those also being offset by androgens?

We're on the same page as what you're saying is we cannot view high e2 sides in men the SAME in men on high androgens vs a "normal" man with maybe 300-400 test levels and 80-120 estrogen levels....THAT would be a fucked up balance and surely that man would feel like shit lol.

Hell, before I got on trt last year my test was like 260 or something and my estradiol was in the 70's....I felt weak and lazy af which is what prompted me to get tested. And I made notable gains on just one shot of test e per week and .5 mg adex every couple days, but more importantly I felt WAY better!

I guess the gem we gotta find here is WHAT is the best ratio for maximizing growth factors..??

It's too bad real IGF is so damn expensive cause then we could have our cake and eat it too lol.

Chrisp the answer to your question is Nolva brother. That'll block your glandular receptors and make it impossible for e2 to bind and grow gyno

[MS_PHARM]

Funny thing is that studies cited here (cattle bulking) resulted in lowered BF when extra E2 was added, some LBM elevation as well (increased extracellular water retention to consideration, +33% more proteins deposition - sure, funny as hell). Take into account that cited cattle wasn't treated with SERM, and cattle in general doesn't count energy intake (elevated E2 may caused elevated food consumption during the study).

Low-dosed tamoxifen (10-20 mg/ED) reduces hepatic IGF-1 levels by 30-50%. It's a lot. However, elevated E2 increases local (autocrine & paracrine) IGF-1 secretion and it's receptors, but nobody says it happens in a linear fashion. As previously mentioned, elevated E2 results in more water retention (hydrated state = anabolic state, we don't go into the details here), increased glucose uptake (GLUT4 transport activation), increased glucose utilization in myocytes (G6PD concentration goes up, pentose recuperation pathway rate elevates), AR stability (and/or density) gets better (so more AR-agonists complexes are formed), 5-HT & NA & GLU neural pathways are sustained or even intensified (good and bad sides), blood lipids profile improves, bones & connective tissue condition as well, etc.

All this is conducive to development of muscle tissue. Basing on my knowledge (MPharm) and a little of experience, conclusion is always the same - looking for a sweet spot for E2 level during bulking phase is crucial. You let it go up too much - you are bloated as hell (BP goes over 140/100 & your apetite goes down), forget about any libido, your foggy mind won't let you train hard, you'll be forced to use SERMs (another sides, like mentioned IGF-1 concentration reduction), etc. You let it go down too much - throw your bulking phase into the trash, there's nothing to talk about. You say you are a freak - that's your thing, however BB process can be pleasant where sides are reduced to proverbial "5%" & steady satisfactional improvements take place (in another words - you can achieve your goals in a slower pace and the trip is more comfortable). It's a marathon, is that how you like to say?

To sum up a topic I'd like to congratulate all participants of the discussion, your knowledge and experience is invaluable.

[GearHeaded]

Funny thing is that studies cited here (cattle bulking) resulted in lowered BF when extra E2 was added, some LBM elevation as well (increased extracellular water retention to consideration, +33% more proteins deposition - sure, funny as hell). Take into account that cited cattle wasn't treated with SERM, and cattle in general doesn't count energy intake (elevated E2 may caused elevated food consumption during the study).

Low-dosed tamoxifen (10-20 mg/ED) reduces hepatic IGF-1 levels by 30-50%. It's a lot. However, elevated E2 increases local (autocrine & paracrine) IGF-1 secretion and it's receptors, but nobody says it happens in a linear fashion. As previously mentioned, elevated E2 results in more water retention (hydrated state = anabolic state, we don't go into the details here), increased glucose uptake (GLUT4 transport activation), increased glucose utilization in myocytes (G6PD concentration goes up, pentose recuperation pathway rate elevates), AR stability (and/or density) gets better (so more AR-agonists complexes are formed), 5-HT & NA & GLU neural pathways are sustained or even intensified (good and bad sides), blood lipids profile improves, bones & connective tissue condition as well, etc.

All this is conducive to development of muscle tissue. Basing on my knowledge (MPharm) and a little of experience, conclusion is always the same - looking for a sweet spot for E2 level during bulking phase is crucial. You let it go up too much - you are bloated as hell (BP goes over 140/100 & your apetite goes down), forget about any libido, your foggy mind won't let you train hard, you'll be forced to use SERMs (another sides, like mentioned IGF-1 concentration reduction), etc. You let it go down too much - throw your bulking phase into the trash, there's nothing to talk about. You say you are a freak - that's your thing, however BB process can be pleasant where sides are reduced to proverbial "5%" & steady satisfactional improvements take place (in another words - you can achieve your goals in a slower pace and the trip is more comfortable). It's a marathon, is that how you like to say?

To sum up a topic I'd like to congratulate all participants of the discussion, your knowledge and experience is invaluable.

Excellent post MS-Pharm.. thanks for adding to the discussion.

quick question for you. the numbers you got for the reduction of IGF-1 production from the use of Tamoxifen, are those from the standard studies that were done on women?

I know a lot of people talk about how IGF is greatly reduced when using Tamoxifen/Nolvadex . but there is NO correlation between women with breast cancer using this SERM (which does reduce IGF for sure.. but thats a good thing for them as it slows down the cancer growth), AND enhanced AAS using men.
I can go over this in more detail . but the lowering effects on IGF from using Nolvadex in AAS using bodybuilders is of no real concern. Everything an AAS user is doing way more then over compensates and IGF levels are going to actually be much higher in this class of people then average (even while on Nolva).. we just can't compare this to the studies done on Nolva reducing IGF in women with breast cancer.

but hey, just more fun topics to discuss eh

[MS_PHARM]

high beliefs and super-self-confidence as a manifestation of T sides protecting intellectual progress

[GearHeaded]

we can't say for sure that tamoxifen is the most hypertrophy-friendly SERM. The problem is coming back - evidence is lacking.
Conclusion - the most reasonable option would be to give up any SERM from your bulking cycle (control your E2 with an AI or just remove the mammary gland surgically).

how about anecdotal evidence..

guys like Jordan peters who use Nolva as their anti estrogen (no AI's except in prep) and who advocate its use for their clients.. It doesn't seem to of effected his hypertrophy results very much

real world evidence points out that Nolvadex effects on IGF and muscle building for bodybuilders is such a drop in the bucket, its really of no concern.

the scientific evidence , if we tested it, would point out that an enhanced bodybuilder has so many different avenues of anabolism and hypertrophy (and ways to increase IGF levels), that Nolvadex's role in decreasing IGF plays zero significance (even given that Nolvadex will decrease hepatic output of IGF . . . this decrease is more then made up via other mechanisms).

a guy not taking Nolvadex simply because he thinks it would effect his gains, is like stepping over dollars to pick up pennies, imo.
the decrease in IGF is not statistically significant given the context of an enhanced bodybuilder. Those pennies mean nothing when your making millions

[charger69]

great write up Aphamindz . I'll respond better when I have more time. I just want to make this quick point.

Elevated Estrogen in men, from a medical point of view, has a lot of the negative side effects that you listed. HOWEVER these are all primarily in the context of an estrogen dominant setting (which is where normal men with elevated estrogen are) and NOT in the context of an AAS user injecting 3 grams of gear a week and having androgen levels in the tens our thousands ng/dl range.

high levels of elevated androgens are going to off set a lot of these negative estrogen side effects. your estrogen levels could be off the charts , but as long as your androgen levels are off the charts even more, the sides can be offset.

are you aware that for years guys have used Halotestin when running highly estrogenic compounds to off set gyno and other estrogen related sides. why? its not like Halo is anti-estrogenic in any way . its because Halo is the most Androgenic compound we have. something like 15x more androgenic then test. high androgen levels offset negative effects of high estrogen, and thats why halo can be used as a tool.


so just wanted to set the context up here about high estrogen side effects. you have one set of side effects that effect most all guys, but you have estrogen not effecting guys all that negatively who are using high levels of exogenous androgens while estrogen levels are high.
so its person and context dependent.

Holy shit- there is some real science behind my bro science! Things are beginning to make sense!
I have also been growing since I stopped using an AI.


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[Obs]

I have some of the same 100 anastrozole I got two years ago....
Me no like AI.

Little mast stopped gyno butt cold I have never had estrogen sides other than that

[charger69]

I have some of the same 100 anastrozole I got two years ago....
Me no like AI.

Little mast stopped gyno butt cold I have never had estrogen sides other than that

That’s because your gay and consider it natural and not a side. LOL


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[Obs]

That’s because your gay and consider it natural and not a side. LOL


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Your the one that does cardio.
I just work and have sex (with a woman only thank you)

[kelkel]

I just work and have sex (with a woman only thank you)

Times change!

[GearHeaded]

just stumbled across this podcast. two bodybuilding prep coaches discussing Estrogen and its benefits and how they don't use AI's with their clients because of Estrogens many anabolic benefits.

Guess I'm not the only one preaching this stuff eh.

estrogen talks start at about 22 mins in and goes to 35 mins

[Obs]

just stumbled across this podcast. two bodybuilding prep coaches discussing Estrogen and its benefits and how they don't use AI's with their clients because of Estrogens many anabolic benefits.

Guess I'm not the only one preaching this stuff eh.

estrogen talks start at about 22 mins in and goes to 35 mins

Nice video.

I had natural gyno as a teen that subsided naturally.
Once I started my second deca /test/dbol cycle (no AI) I started getting a lump again. I eliminated it with nolva very quickly. Tren seemed to bring it back rather quickly, but again most of my compounds are higher androgenic compounds.

I got pretty good at timing it. I knew when the knot would start about how many weeks it would take the nolvadex to knock it out. I have actually walked a guy through gyno reversal that has never used AAS, but wished to.

I prepped him to prepare for his first cycle. He had been to a doctor that said it would require surgery to reverse but was willing to try nolva.

He was ecstatic that it actually worked at about the same rate as my previous experiences.
Whether natural or AAS onset, gyno (hard lump) seems to reverse at about the same rate with nolva.

That being said you talked about masteron enough I finally tried it on just... Stupid amounts... Of androgenic compounds. 700mg of mast has counteracted the estrogen from attaching at my mam glands even on a much higher ratio of high androgenic compounds.

I have read all opinions of AI on this and other boards.
Your advice suited my personal experience the closest of any I have found.

I did not read what happened to me. I lived it over a two year period.

As you know, people fall into a metaphorical box of suggested info and usually don't stray, unless they are just new and started shooting shit with no clue of how to counteract issues that arise. Usually when a newbie has an issue like gyno and is not studied up, they go to a board and get an ass reaming and start following standard parroted protocols. 6 months later they are perpetuating the advice (the box). When we never venture out of the box we can expect mediocre results.

I am not exactly normal.
I have tried some pretty random ass stuff but it became apparent rather quickly that AI was not necessary for me. Not to say I haven't been in the "box" before. I used to make fun of guys running nolva on cycle at times before I learned that I was either gonna do so or have a pair of titties.

I am not estrogen sensitive in any way.
If I had tacked on even 200 mg a week of mast P to my previous cycles I would have never had any issue. Not that the gyno was ever really an issue.

Everyone should have ancilliaries on hand in copious amounts should an issue arise.
I believe a lot of my success was attributed to higher estrogen levels.

On the estrogen sensitive types I believe you are right in your theory that they just simply wont experience as much bang for their buck from AAS. Many guys estrogen gets higher and they get horrible anxiety and water retention. I did not and I do not.

Literally the only side I experience is slow griwing hard lump gyno on high amounts of androgenic compounds. Its not really a battle for me to eliminate it at all.

I am not bragging on myself but I have seen the progress I have made and I will be Ifbb level in the open class before I die unless an unforseen tragedy prevents it. I started with no weight training at 165-170 (though I worked like an animal heavy labor) and am now much leaner at 230lb 2 years later.

I dont advise much anymore, other than having the required drugs on hand in case something goes wrong and growing into a dosage while monitoring bloods, responding accodingly.

I encourage people with a few cycles to experiment a little. I did from day one, which was probably too soon but... I am here and I am not queer, I survived it.

I also am not speaking to the guy that wants to look good or gain 30lbs to get pussy. I honestly think most of them have no business with superphysiological doses of AAS. My goal is to get so big I scare puss off and make normal folks go, "Nasty!".

If a guy wants to get big as fuck, wide as shit, and thick as hell, (**obs's bureau of weights and measures**) then he is gonna have to get the fuck out of that "box" and he will spend most of his time there on the outside. The safety aspect will wave bye bye too. We must respond to bloods and monitor our health, but the price will be paid for living far outside your natural potential.

I appreciate the hell out of your opinion and work on this subject GH.

The video covered all of this but I wanted to add my nickel.

[Obs]

Also...

You mentioned metabolic rates possibly determining whether you would be estrogen sensitive or not.

My brother had natty gyno too. He has a much slower metabolism and is fat prone. He still has that gyno, wheas mine went away quickly.

My brother is estrogen sensitive, I am not.

I think a lot of the old belief that higher bf% = higher conversion rates is false. I think that if you have a slow metabolism in 99% of cases you will be more estrogen sensitive and usually carry more fat simply because you have a slower metabolic rate.

I have seen nothing to point to the idea that I convert at a different rate than others...

I convert at a normal rate, it just does not affect me hardly at all because I have a high metabolism. My growth has been tip top because I didn't use AI.

I understand some have to use AI, but I think we have confused the mechanisms by which people are or are not estrogen sensitive.

You are the first induvidual I have ever seen link metabolism with estrogen sensitivity, GH. I really think you are correct in the assumption.

[GearHeaded]

I'm going to resurrect this thread just to add some more details about estrogen here. just some tid bits of info..

- IF your taking HGH, but your also a fan of running high dosages of AI's and keeping you Estrogen in the low range, your screwing yourself over. Estrogen is a crucial component to converting HGH into IGF

- Tren is known for increasing IGF-1 levels and thats one of the anabolic benefits of tren. but little do most guys know that Tren does not do this by itself, its actually through the estrogen mechanism that tren is raising your IGF levels.

- The male sex drive is driven primarily by estrogen , NOT Testosterone .. on the other hand, the female sex drive is driven by testosterone. I'm convinced that a lot of the libido issues guys have reported on the forums is often times due to their AI usage.

- estrogen is extremely anabolic especially in the presence of elevated androgen levels. where as the male hormone "dht" is not anabolic in muscle tissue at all.

got lots more.. just randomly throw some stuff out there for you guys to think about as they come to me

[Obs]

I'm going to resurrect this thread just to add some more details about estrogen here. just some tid bits of info..

- IF your taking HGH, but your also a fan of running high dosages of AI's and keeping you Estrogen in the low range, your screwing yourself over. Estrogen is a crucial component to converting HGH into IGF

- Tren is known for increasing IGF-1 levels and thats one of the anabolic benefits of tren. but little do most guys know that Tren does not do this by itself, its actually through the estrogen mechanism that tren is raising your IGF levels.

- The male sex drive is driven primarily by estrogen , NOT Testosterone .. on the other hand, the female sex drive is driven by testosterone. I'm convinced that a lot of the libido issues guys have reported on the forums is often times due to their AI usage.

- estrogen is extremely anabolic especially in the presence of elevated androgen levels. where as the male hormone "dht" is not anabolic in muscle tissue at all.

got lots more.. just randomly throw some stuff out there for you guys to think about as they come to me

I dont use AI and I am horny always.

[kelkel]

I dont use AI and I am horny always.

Thanks for sharing.

[Quester]

I dont use AI and I am horny always.

[GearHeaded]

I dont use AI and I am horny always.

this is biologically accurate .. heres why.

- estrogen is the main hormone that controls the male libido . low estrogen = low sex drive
- the aromatase enzyme, which is located in fat cells, is responsible for converting test into estrogen. the more fat you have the more aromatase you have and the more potential you have for estrogen. the lower your body fat the less potential you have for estrogen..

^ this is important for reproduction of our species.
you see if we males are in a state of famine and starvation, our body fat is going to be super low thus our estrogen will be super low and thus we will have little desire for sex. this is biologically beneficial as its not ideal to procreate and generate offspring (for any species) during times of famine or starvation.
NOW when we are well fed and food supply is consistent to the point that we put on body fat, our aromatase enzyme increases and our ability to produce estrogen increases and we then have a strong sex drive and ability to procreate.

see how estrogen is very important to the male species for survival . no its not just a ''female'' hormone