Steroids and depression

[dadofthree]

I stopped using tren and deca and test about 8 months ago. I used them for far too long. I am currently suffering from sever depression. The depression started about 6 months after discontinuing steroid use . My question is can my depression be cause by this prior steroid use. Keep in mind the gap between stopping the droid use and the start of the depression. Has anyone experienced this? If so how could the roids have caused this? Please help... please do not flame me. I am going through to much already

[SampsonandDelilah]

It’s certainly possible...hormones affect mood. No one should flame you or they can fuck off. Have you had lab work to see where your levels are at? It would be worth investigating. I’m not a doctor but there’s definitely a correlation between hormones and your sense of well being. I would think lab work, a talk with an actual professional and then look into an SSRI or an SNRI.
Don’t forget 2020 has been an emotional year as well.

Fingers crossed for you brother, this too shall pass.

[dadofthree]

I started trt 6 weeks andago brought t levels up to normal and very little to no improvement but I have not had my estrogen levels checked.

[SampsonandDelilah]

Doctor prescribed TRT? Can’t imagine a provider starting test therapy and not running labs that would include E2.

Full panel is important bro...

How old are you?

[dadofthree]

Yes doc prescribed through biote... I'm 32 I have been cycling for 8 years and never had this problem

[SampsonandDelilah]

You’re a young man. Biote running pellets?

You need a full panel run, even if you get it done by your primary care doc. They may not be willing to administer your test, but they’ll run labs for you.

I’m not saying your E2 is the reason you’re depressed, but it could be an important piece of the puzzle. Mental health is complicated and it’s great your starting to dialogue. 8 years of cycling and only 32 and no baseline for your full hormone panel fines me pause for concern. Go see your GP, start the discussion and pull bloods. Biote isn’t concerned with your overall mental health, they’re interested in your wallet

[dadofthree]

They give you the option of pellets or injections... I've have about 20000 dollars worth of blood work done in the Er.. no abnormal findings. I started of having panic attacks and going to the er thinking I was having a heart attack..

[SampsonandDelilah]

I think you need to see your general practitioner brother...this is beyond my pay grade. Hear to listen though if you need an ear. Hang tough.

This shit will pass. It always darkest before the dawn, believe the light will come

Maybe someone who’s been through it will weigh in for you. Fingers crossed and blessings

[< <Samson> >]

Sounds like me after my 1st tren run - I ran it close to 3/4 of gram per week + mast + test


When I came off, I felt what I'd consider somewhat close to what I feel some days rn - and, rn I am going through some real shit



It really can do that - what did I do, jump on & manage ever since



What do i recommend? - try harder, GL

[magic32]

I completely agree with S&D.

It would be wise to see a physical (not virtual visit) doctor, but this can be a general practitioner or an internal medicine doc as both are primary care physicians. Then get a full blood workup all lipids, but also Test and Estro.

The blood work should provide your answer. You mentioned maybe being "on too long", this is known to cause the symptoms you're describing. Also, it can cause delayed symptoms which would explain your 6-month gap in time. A poingant question would be, did you ROUTINELY properly cycle off and on, observing at least general guidelines, or stay on for extended periods? If the latter, your odds of such an endocrine response increase greatly.

Regardless, it is a resolvable condition, but not with hit or miss remote care. Keep us posted.

Best to you.

[slfmade]

I'm in agreement with the guys above. First thing would be to make an appt with your primary care doc and get those labs, but be sure to talk with him about your mental health as well and be upfront with him. You say you were cycling for 8 years and then just decided to quit. I'm assuming something must've changed in your life to spawn such a decision. I mean, gear seemed to be a part of your life for a significant amount of time - to go and drop it like that is interesting. You don't have to tell me or anybody else why, but let your doctor know if there was some major life event or change that influenced your decision to give it up.

Also, anybody that tells you that gear can't be mentally addicting is just plain ignorant. I don't care who you are, It feels good to look good. Sure, some guys are in this game for performance reasons, but the vast majority - if they're honest about it - use gear because they like the way it makes them look, the way it makes them feel, and the attention that they get from others. You feel special, you feel like superman. When you take that away, you can feel weak and powerless and you blend in with the masses. Now you may still be 10x bigger than 90% of the population but in your mind, you look small. I freely admit, I have body image issues and I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of guys on gear have body image issues in some way or another too. If they didn't have them before gear, they do when they come off.

I'm not saying you have a primary mental health diagnosis. In fact, It's probably just a symptom of years of AAS abuse that will likely clear up when the underlying cause is corrected. Regardless, you need to be treated for your depression and you need to be treated correctly and immediatly. Unfortunately, mental health issues too often get blown off in primary care and it's something I have a real beef with. A lot of times it's due to the patient not being upfront with the Dr. so be sure to tell him how you feel and don't sugar coat it or play it off like it's not that bad or something your dealing with on your own. Tell him exactly how bad your depression is making you feel. If you don't act like it's serious, He won't treat it serious. It's going to take time for your hormone situation to get worked out. No good doctor worth a damn is going to make you live in misery while you guys figure out your hormones together. He'll likely put you on an SSRI. Prozac is common and a good one to go with if you feel tired as it's the most energizing of the SSRI's; however, it sucks if you're dealing with insomnia because...well, it's energizing. Lexapro is becoming one of the go to SSRIs - it's weight neutral and good for both anxiety and depression.

Last but not least. I think for you this may be important. It may be wise to ask for a benzo to hold you over until the SSRI kicks in. In can take 4-6 weeks before that SSRI starts to improve your mood. Even worse, energy typically kicks in before it's anti-depressive qualities do. This can be a real problem because for people that were previously so depressed they wanted to end their life but lacked the energy to do it...now they have the energy yet still no signficant improvement in mood. It can be dangerous is all I'm saying. So ask for benzo to help you out over the next few weeks. Be prepared for some questions though. If you have a history of drug abuse some doctors won't prescribe benzos to previous addicts. I wouldn't consider even the heaviest AAS user in this category, but I know many doctors that would so...it's going to depend on your doctor and on you. Even if my patient was a heroin addict, if I believed the benefit outweighed the risk, I would prescribe. Good luck to you man

[z06vett]

I'm in agreement with the guys above. First thing would be to make an appt with your primary care doc and get those labs, but be sure to talk with him about your mental health as well and be upfront with him. You say you were cycling for 8 years and then just decided to quit. I'm assuming something must've changed in your life to spawn such a decision. I mean, gear seemed to be a part of your life for a significant amount of time - to go and drop it like that is interesting. You don't have to tell me or anybody else why, but let your doctor know if there was some major life event or change that influenced your decision to give it up.

Also, anybody that tells you that gear can't be mentally addicting is just plain ignorant. I don't care who you are, It feels good to look good. Sure, some guys are in this game for performance reasons, but the vast majority - if they're honest about it - use gear because they like the way it makes them look, the way it makes them feel, and the attention that they get from others. You feel special, you feel like superman. When you take that away, you can feel weak and powerless and you blend in with the masses. Now you may still be 10x bigger than 90% of the population but in your mind, you look small. I freely admit, I have body image issues and I'd be willing to bet that the vast majority of guys on gear have body image issues in some way or another too. If they didn't have them before gear, they do when they come off.

I'm not saying you have a primary mental health diagnosis. In fact, It's probably just a symptom of years of AAS abuse that will likely clear up when the underlying cause is corrected. Regardless, you need to be treated for your depression and you need to be treated correctly and immediatly. Unfortunately, mental health issues too often get blown off in primary care and it's something I have a real beef with. A lot of times it's due to the patient not being upfront with the Dr. so be sure to tell him how you feel and don't sugar coat it or play it off like it's not that bad or something your dealing with on your own. Tell him exactly how bad your depression is making you feel. If you don't act like it's serious, He won't treat it serious. It's going to take time for your hormone situation to get worked out. No good doctor worth a damn is going to make you live in misery while you guys figure out your hormones together. He'll likely put you on an SSRI. Prozac is common and a good one to go with if you feel tired as it's the most energizing of the SSRI's; however, it sucks if you're dealing with insomnia because...well, it's energizing. Lexapro is becoming one of the go to SSRIs - it's weight neutral and good for both anxiety and depression.

Last but not least. I think for you this may be important. It may be wise to ask for a benzo to hold you over until the SSRI kicks in. In can take 4-6 weeks before that SSRI starts to improve your mood. Even worse, energy typically kicks in before it's anti-depressive qualities do. This can be a real problem because for people that were previously so depressed they wanted to end their life but lacked the energy to do it...now they have the energy yet still no signficant improvement in mood. It can be dangerous is all I'm saying. So ask for benzo to help you out over the next few weeks. Be prepared for some questions though. If you have a history of drug abuse some doctors won't prescribe benzos to previous addicts. I wouldn't consider even the heaviest AAS user in this category, but I know many doctors that would so...it's going to depend on your doctor and on you. Even if my patient was a heroin addict, if I believed the benefit outweighed the risk, I would prescribe. Good luck to you man

I've been on gear for over ten years, and started on wellbutrin which isn't a serotonin inhibitor, it's a NDRI. All the antidepressants mentioned above have good chances of messin with your libido. I Also take a mood stabilizer and benzos and ambein when needed. The only thing that fuck with me is deca while on it and clomid coming off of it. Literally will start crying over shit that has been long gone. Weird but my med combo has worked well for me. Not to mention I use to smoke cig in my mid 20's casually. Wellbutrin made that stop as well. Test tren and eq is what I run and coast on through out the year. Might sub the eq for primo. So far so good. With the mental health side of things

Wish everyone the best.

[Dgs59]

Hope you feel better soon dude

[DustMan]

You were using Tren and Deca , those both mess with prolactin and progesterone, both can really fuck up your mood. You should get your prolactin and progesterone levels checked, and look into cabergoline to manage prolactin levels.

You might not have done a sufficient job with your PCT either. A lot of people start their PCT too early, and so it doesn't do nearly as good a job starting you back up again. Also, 19nor's are way more suppressive than test, it takes a lot longer to start back up after you use deca or tren, if you decide to come off the pellet you might want to redo your PCT, and find out how to do it right.

Have you had your test bloods done since starting TRT? What are your E2, test, free test, prolactin and progesterone at?

[< <Samson> >]

I have way too much time on my hands


Way too long? How long have you been using? - the longer on, the rougher the off



And, my opinion on roids and mental issues - well, if you have any(even lying dormant) roids will emphasize them - eventually. And, in some they can actually cause them - I denied this to myself for years and years - I just started to admit it & fully understand this quite recently.

[slfmade]

I've been on gear for over ten years, and started on wellbutrin which isn't a serotonin inhibitor, it's a NDRI. All the antidepressants mentioned above have good chances of messin with your libido. I Also take a mood stabilizer and benzos and ambein when needed. The only thing that fuck with me is deca while on it and clomid coming off of it. Literally will start crying over shit that has been long gone. Weird but my med combo has worked well for me. Not to mention I use to smoke cig in my mid 20's casually. Wellbutrin made that stop as well. Test tren and eq is what I run and coast on through out the year. Might sub the eq for primo. So far so good. With the mental health side of things

Wish everyone the best.

Libido concerns can and should be addressed if needed, but you can't just abandon first line meds on the chance you may have some reversible libido issues. I like Wellbutrin - we're finding a bunch of cool off label uses for it all the time. I like to use it as an add-on/adjunct therapy with an ssri if there are libido issues or if one ssri just isn't cutting it. Also, decreases in Libido are often dosages dependent, so starting with a low dose SSRI and low dose Wellbutrin as an adjunct works nicely.

Now that being said, Wellbutrin is not approved to help those with anxiety issues. In fact, depending on the type of anxiety, some studies show it'll make it worse. Personally, I think these issues are overblown but don't be surprised if you tell your provider that you've got anxiety and he doesn't want to give Wellbutrin.

Buy here's the deal. None of us know this guy's situation. We don't know what is going on medically or the background on his mental health. Only his doc is going to know that stuff. Maybe SSRI is the right call, maybe Wellbutrin, maybe it's neither and an sNri will ultimately work best for him. We don't know. The important thing is that he gets his mental health addressed and that he realizes that most of the meds take some time to start working and that short term use of benzos are perfectly indicated for the waiting period if needed - There's nothing wrong with requesting some.

[dadofthree]

Thank you all for your replies. I have been running tren and deca flip flopping them out for several years and taking minor breaks from them here and there. I have been on test for years. I stopped taking everything because I started having bad anxiety. I have not had my prolactin or progesterone levels checked. I am not feeling much anxiety at the moment. But when I say major depression I mean about as bad as it can get. I am close to going in to a mental hospital and I'm afraid they will not test these hormones and will just try to give me SSRI and things of that nature. I do plan to be 100 with the doctor.

Maybe I'm not feeling the anxiety because of how bad my depression is.

[< <Samson> >]

Might as well ask - well

What r u depressed about?

If it’s just juice - I got back on, felt fine & never looked back

Why did you come clean off after such an extended period of time? . . . I’d at least recommend tapering or some shit - but, we are all way different

[dadofthree]

Feels like I'm giving up. Dont want to work nearly want to get up. Derealization and it feels like it just came out of no where.. like no life event really caused it. I've got a beautiful wife and three healthy kids. A good career. It's hard work but pays well. I just have no motivation even on test. And the derealization shit is crazy

[DustMan]

Try the SSRI's, they work for some people, you can always take test alongside them. Definitely get the prolactin and progesterone checked out, maybe you can pay for the tests out of pocket, and of course make sure your E2 is under control as well.

Hope you get back on track, I went through the same thing the first time I came off Deca , I know you say you've been using it off and on for years, I'm just saying, I've been there and I know it's shit. Good luck pulling though.

[< <Samson> >]

Feels like I'm giving up. Dont want to work nearly want to get up. Derealization and it feels like it just came out of no where.. like no life event really caused it. I've got a beautiful wife and three healthy kids. A good career. It's hard work but pays well. I just have no motivation even on test. And the derealization shit is crazy

With this - unfortunately, I do agree with the above

Above my pay grade, go to an MD

[slfmade]

Yeah man.

Go see your provider this week. Get ALL your bloodwork done, but DO NOT leave without getting your mental health addressed. At this point it's a "which came first - chicken or the egg scenario". You are that age where MDD starts hitting people and there's been a huge uptick in MDD since all this shit with Covid started. Did the MDD come first causing anxiety and an overall lack of interest in everything including AAS or was in discontinuation of the AAS? You need that bloodwork, but the immediate concern is your mental health. So, tell your doc and get on some anti-depressants and some benzo's to hold you over until they starts working. Get some exercise - even if you don't feel like it. Go on a hike - get out of the house - hit the gym - do something. You may not feel like doing anything, but do it anyway. Talk to your doc about CBT (Cognitive Behavorial Therapy). The exercise and benzo's will start helping you feel better this week. In about 4-6 weeks the anti-depressants will kick in. CBT will work wonders. I have people close to me that have been through CBT and praised its effectivness. MDD, even if not related to your AAS is not a life long issue. With medication, therapy, and exercise you'll feel better fairly quickly and for most it's completely resolved in less than a year at which point you can discontinue all treatment. It's shocking to learn how many people struggle with this at some point in their life - most of the time we don't know about it until it's too late. Those that seek treatment find solutions. Go see your doctor. If he/she doesn't work out a plan similar to the one I have laid out, ask to see a mental health specialist. Remember, Meds, Therapy, and exercise. These are the big three and mainstay therapies for MDD.

I feel like this goes without saying because any doctor worth a damn should be checking, but when they check your blood work, make sure your getting the common stuff too. CBC, CMP, TSH, T3, T4. These will help rule out other conditions that could be cause your symptoms. Anemia/iron deficiency can cause some pretty severe depression symptoms. And hypothyrodism causes depression in over half of people.

[dadofthree]

The anxiety attacks came first then the depression and loss of interest. Is there something in particular that roids do to you chemically in the brain that can be counter acted. I think you have covered what I need to do very well. Thank you all very much. I will use the advice given.

[slfmade]

The anxiety attacks came first then the depression and loss of interest. Is there something in particular that roids do to you chemically in the brain that can be counter acted. I think you have covered what I need to do very well. Thank you all very much. I will use the advice given.

Sure. Steroids , quite literally cause an imbalance to your hormones. It's what they're designed to do. Hormones regulate metabolism, heart rate, blood pressure, mood, appetite, sleep cycles, sexual desire, hot/cold sensitivity, etc, etc, etc. Medications are what counteract these things - usually, it starts by getting your hormones back in balance which is why all of us are stressing blood work. It can take months to get TRT dialed in. I've seen a lot of people almost give up on trt, but once they finally get everything dialed in.....it's a night and day difference. It's a balancing act. You just need a doc that will help you get there and address your mental health in the meantime.

[Test Monsterone]

Steroids certainly affect the brain. Just a quick search reveals that anabolic steroids affect serotonin and dopamine levels. Serotonin deals with mood; dopamine deals with motivation.

Check out this anecdote from a study: "rats given twice daily nandrolone injections for four weeks showed loss of sweet preference (a sign of reward dysfunction) that was accompanied by reductions of dopamine, serotonin, and noradrenaline in the nucleus accumbens, a reward-related brain region..."

I'm dealing with some mood issues myself right now, and I'm on a mild cycle but recently introduced a compound. I've also had severe depression not on any steroids, before I ever did them; in fact steroids helped get rid of the depression at the time.

The problem with mood disorders is that it's difficult to diagnose what the actual problem is. They can't reliably measure serotonin and dopamine levels in humans, at least not that I'm aware of. There are a myriad of chemical reactions constantly happening in our brains, that even a snapshot picture of the levels wouldn't tell the whole story.


Often times with me, if I'm having a bad day, week, or month, I get obsessive negative thoughts about certain aspects of my life/body/whatever. I will keep regurgitating and cycling through these thoughts over and over. I try to differentiate if the feelings were going to happen anyhow and I just found something to direct those feelings toward, or if those things I'm unhappy about are making me feel the negative emotions. When I have a good day, the things that I was depressed about are still present, but they don't seem to bother me at all, or as much.

In any case, if you start having obsessive depressive thoughts for weeks on end, it's time to see a psychiatrist and get on some medicine. I did when I needed to, and I took the lowest dose SSRI available. Citalopram and then Lexapro at one point, years apart. I, too, had panic attacks back then. SSRIs treat depression and panic attacks.

So in any case, there are a number of factors playing into how you're feeling, and it's a possibility that steroids had some impact on your current state of mind. Just know that this state of mind is temporary, even if it lasts for the rest of the year, it will eventually go away and you'll be fine. You may need to see a doctor or two and get some blood tests, and figure out how you stand hormonally. It takes time, so don't give up.

[< <Samson> >]

Let alone they really do make you have self image issues - or multiply them severely

[Quester]

Just to add to what Slfmade said regarding SSRI and sex.
-
I used to have SSRI induced sexual dysfunction. I now take Buspirone for anxiety. There is some evidence that it helps with SSRI induced sexual dysfunction either way, my sex drive and performance are back and my anxiety is down. I'm also taking Tadalafil 5mg for BPH and sex, it helps too.
-
GL brother, hope you keep contributing to the forum and keep us updated.

[Honkey_Kong]

A big part of the anxiety and depression I had when I stopped doing gear was due to losing size and power. I don't know about you guys, but going from feeling like I was the Hulk to feeling like an old folk really hurt my ego and messed with my psyche. I always had a feeling like I wasn't big enough, strong enough and good enough for myself BEFORE I ever did gear. Going on gear kind of lifts a lot of that off our shoulders and going back to the way we were before gear is a really big humbling pill.

Anti-depressants and meds for anxiety might help you quite a bit (don't get caught up in benzos, they will ultimately hurt worse than they help in the long term) and you really should see a physician about that. But what also might help you a lot is some sessions with a good therapist. Talking through these problems helps a lot of people out.

[JaneDoe]

I have never seen anyone who is running steroids having depression, I only saw cases that they had after stopping use for weeks because of hpta .

[dadofthree]

From what I know trt should over ride the low hpta problem.. right?

[SampsonandDelilah]

Technically yes. If your natural production is shut down, TRT provides an exogenous source of testosterone and restores hormonal balance. Blood work is necessary to check other hormonal markets such a E2, prolactin, etc to ensure you have homeostasis (or as close as possible)

[beanpo1e]

I would echo what the others have said about finding a physician who can go over a thorough history of the past few years, do a good physical and run some labs. In addition to the ideas the others have thrown out, high Cortisol can contribute to depression. Little lower yield but still relevant, a good neurologic assesment can find underlying issues that contribute to depression.

[JaneDoe]

From what I know trt should over ride the low hpta problem.. right?

Yeah

[tbjake34]

Hey brother, first off im sorry to hear you are going through some emotional struggles. I have been there myself and I know the feeling. I would highly recommend getting a full blood work done and see where u are health wise as well as hormones. But also depression can be caused by outside factors like work, relationships, money, other stresses like this pandemic we are in. They can all attribute to feeling depressed. Always remember that depression is temporary and it WILL pass in time. Just seek help like you are doing right now and you will find answers. I wish you well bro we are always here for you!

[usafpj5150]

This thread is awesome! Just what I needed to read. I’ve been struggling with depression and anxiety for a few months and it’s recently gotten much much worse. It’s borderline paralyzing (mentally). I’m still operating and high functioning but I’m in a dark place, within my own head.
I went and got my labs done and my test is through the roof! Total test at 1400, free at 300. These levels are 100% my fault! I recently moved, got new, different darts and have inadvertently doubled my test doses. What a fucktard! My cycle includes test + tren ace. Not sure if it’s the test levels, the tren or the combination. Regardless, I’ve now corrected my dose and will work through this for a couple weeks to see if my mood shifts until I can get my test to an appropriate level.

Open to anyone’s thoughts here! From someone that is generally happy and confident, it’s definitely a mind fuck to all of a sudden feel this desperate.

[Test Monsterone]

This thread is awesome! Just what I needed to read. I’ve been struggling with depression and anxiety for a few months and it’s recently gotten much much worse. It’s borderline paralyzing (mentally). I’m still operating and high functioning but I’m in a dark place, within my own head.
I went and got my labs done and my test is through the roof! Total test at 1400, free at 300. These levels are 100% my fault! I recently moved, got new, different darts and have inadvertently doubled my test doses. What a fucktard! My cycle includes test + tren ace. Not sure if it’s the test levels, the tren or the combination. Regardless, I’ve now corrected my dose and will work through this for a couple weeks to see if my mood shifts until I can get my test to an appropriate level.

Open to anyone’s thoughts here! From someone that is generally happy and confident, it’s definitely a mind fuck to all of a sudden feel this desperate.

You’re not alone brother, a lot of us go through spells of sadness/depression. If you want to see if the steroids are causing your depressions and anxiety, drop the tren and run a moderate TRT dose, at around 150 mg/week. Give yourself some time to adjust. If that doesn’t help, don’t just jump back on a bunch of gear, but figure out what else can be causing it. Our own thoughts and negative self-talk can be our biggest detriments. Learn to think positively. Put yourself in a time and place where you were confident and happy. Remember how it felt and how you thought. Replicate those thoughts and you may be able to change how you feel.

[< <Samson> >]

I been though it all


Juice can def do a bit - I been through it all. Coming off roids, come downs from loooooong benders, withdrawals & now my medical nonsense


If anyone actually reads this > don't lose focus, even if you have to stay on test, then taper off or some shit - but, it can get real - or, more like - feel just like it

[tbjake34]

This thread is awesome! Just what I needed to read. I’ve been struggling with depression and anxiety for a few months and it’s recently gotten much much worse. It’s borderline paralyzing (mentally). I’m still operating and high functioning but I’m in a dark place, within my own head.
I went and got my labs done and my test is through the roof! Total test at 1400, free at 300. These levels are 100% my fault! I recently moved, got new, different darts and have inadvertently doubled my test doses. What a fucktard! My cycle includes test + tren ace. Not sure if it’s the test levels, the tren or the combination. Regardless, I’ve now corrected my dose and will work through this for a couple weeks to see if my mood shifts until I can get my test to an appropriate level.

Open to anyone’s thoughts here! From someone that is generally happy and confident, it’s definitely a mind fuck to all of a sudden feel this desperate.

Tren can make people depressed it made me depressed and anxious it might be that.

[usafpj5150]

🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼

[usafpj5150]

You’re not alone brother, a lot of us go through spells of sadness/depression. If you want to see if the steroids are causing your depressions and anxiety, drop the tren and run a moderate TRT dose, at around 150 mg/week. Give yourself some time to adjust. If that doesn’t help, don’t just jump back on a bunch of gear, but figure out what else can be causing it. Our own thoughts and negative self-talk can be our biggest detriments. Learn to think positively. Put yourself in a time and place where you were confident and happy. Remember how it felt and how you thought. Replicate those thoughts and you may be able to change how you feel.

Thx bro. Definitely attempting to mind > matter. I’m going to get my test back in an appropriate range for me and then see how that goes. If no material improvements, then I’ll look at the tren and so on. Process of elimination!