ketosis question

**cobra kid** · 04-25-2002, 10:09 PM

Well, i actually have a few.

1.How long does it take to get into ketosis?
2.Is there a benefit of staying there for only a short period? As much as i'd like to, i have other priorities that i don't want to have no energy for.
3.My sister is a diabetic and i've always heard from her standpoint how ketosis is bad. Are there serios risks I should watch out for?
4.Do you recomend an appetite supressent to control carb cravings?
5.What about cardio in Ketosis?
6.Anyone use clen while on this type of diet?

Thanks.

**jbrand** · 04-25-2002, 10:39 PM

Originally posted by cobra kid
Well, i actually have a few.

1.How long does it take to get into ketosis?

it will take around 3-4 days to enter ketosis for the first time, it will take less time as the diet becomes more routine (assuming it's cyclical). The quickest time I've reached ketosis in is 10 hours.

2.Is there a benefit of staying there for only a short period? As much as i'd like to, i have other priorities that i don't want to have no energy for.

of course it's beneficial to be in ketosis. ketones burn significantly more calories than when utilizing glucose. if you need time off, i would recommend a cyclical ketogenic diet, with weekend carb-ups. i would recommend reading 'bodyopus' by dan duchaine as well as lyle mcdonalds work, especially on the lowcarb mailing list.

3.My sister is a diabetic and i've always heard from her standpoint how ketosis is bad. Are there serios risks I should watch out for?

you should be absolutely fine, just a little fatigue and nausea at times.

4.Do you recomend an appetite supressent to control carb cravings?

yes, i use e/c/a religiously when i'm on a CKD, helps me keep my caloric intake a tad under maintenance.

5.What about cardio in Ketosis?

cardio is important on a CKD to ensure fat loss. cardio will also help you get back into ketosis after a weekend carb-up by depleting liver glycogen.

6.Anyone use clen while on this type of diet?

not personally, no.

Thanks.

**Tobey** · 04-26-2002, 04:55 AM

Cobra Kid,
You might want to give llbeastcd or beenie a shout. I know both have alot of experience in no carb diets. Big bump for jbrand. It appears the he has ansewered evereything pretty throughly for you.
Tobey

**beenie** · 04-26-2002, 08:46 AM

You can contact me but I am in perfect agreement with jbrand on this one.

For norms expect 3 days to get into ketosis.

Cardio works great while in ketosis as does ECA or clen .

If you are doing a 0 carb diet (or close to it), you need to eat some fat too, or else you will melt away to nothing very fast. If you have some carbs say 20g, you can cut the fat intake to preserve muscle mass. This is based on an earlier experiment that I tried that was a bit too effective for cutting!

As far as carb cravings while in Ketosis: they diminish in time.

And as far as hiving tried this before, I have been on some variation of low carb for about 3 years now. For 2.5 years it was limited to less than 10g/day.

One last thought: When you low carb diet, it is cruitically important to suppliment with HIGH POTENCY vitamins. Low carb is not balanced, so you can compensate for lost nutrients that way.

**caseylee** · 04-26-2002, 11:19 AM

what all do you guys eat while in Ketosis, just chicken breast, and pretein shakes, also what is the max amount of carbs a person can have and still be in Ketosis. also where can a person get keto sticks
thanks

**cobra kid** · 04-26-2002, 11:20 AM

Thanks for the replies. I gonna give the no carb a try for a few weeks while on clen and see where that takes me. I'm not fat by any means but the last bit seems to cling to abs and love handles.(estrogen fat sucks!) I'm using the clen to help preserve mass and speed up the process.

**beenie** · 04-26-2002, 12:00 PM

Crazylee,

You can get Ketostyx in any pharmacy. If you shop around you can get them inexpensively. The price ranges from $8 to $25 for 50-100 styx.

To do no carb, food choice is essentally limited to meat, chicken (with or without skin), and fish. Everything else has at least some carbs. Protien shakes have them becuse they usually include sweetener.

So, doing 0 carb is very difficult. You can add in some low carb stuff such as mustard, green leafy vegitibles, celery and brocolli. They are low and give some variation in diet, but to be really low carb you must limit even them.

**MIKE_XXL** · 04-27-2002, 06:32 AM

Here are some tips from me from my expiriance on keto diet:

I have done Keto Diet a few times, i dieted for a show once using Bodyopus Diet, which is a Keto diet. I dieted only 7 weeks and for seven weeks i looked real good, i wish i would have done it for 9-10 weeks, but there was some time conflict so i couldn't. I started at 195lbs and competed at 176lbs, i really felt like i might have even put on a little bit of muscle while doing it. That is a lose of 19 pounds in only 7 weeks. I only trained 2 days a week on Monday half a body and on tuesday the other half, you want to make sure you do legs on minday while you still have some gkucogen stored in your muscles. On friday i would do a whole body depletion workout, it was done in a circuit fashion, whole body 4-5 times to make sure i fully deplete the glucogen stores before carb loading. Before your decarb work out you need to eat an 1-2 apples about 2 hours before, that is to switch your body into burning glucose and not Ketones so you can fully depleted. Right after my decarb work out i would start my carb up, i would eat about 900 gm of carbs the first 24 hours (8:00 pm friday to 8:00 pm on saturday) and about 400-450 gm of carbs the second 24 hours (8:00 pm saturday to 6:00 pm on sunday) after that i would switch to no carb meals again, i would have a chicken salad at 8:00pm sunday and then that would be it, back to keto diet. I would take supplements to help me get into Ketosis quicker, i would take 600gm of ALA, Magnasium, Vanandel Sulffate (not sure about the spelling here), i would only use them Friday at 8:00pm to tuesday night to help me carb up and decarb and get into Ketosis quiker. You could use insulin ti get into ketosis, but i would NOT try it with no carb but i know it can be done. I didn't use clen i used ECA stack and it worked real well. I personaly wouldn't use clen because it has a halflife of about 36-48 hours and it lowers Insulin sensitivity so technicaly speaking you would have to cut it out on wednesday evening to let yourself carb up to the fullest.

If you want more detail let me know i have the whole diet and workout program saved somewhere on my hard drive, so if you want the whole plan let me know and i will e-mail you with the info. Hope this helps you out a little.

**BIGBry** · 04-27-2002, 07:50 AM

it take 48 to 72 Hours the ketosis has great benefit you should read Anabolic diet by Dr. Mauro Di Pasquale and The bodyopus by The late great one the guru himself Dan Duchaine
(A monent of silence pleas).
They are great books both kick in keytosis for the week and carb up on the weekends, and they have special work out routines where it help you do a total completion of carb before the weekend and the recomsumption will happen on the weekend when you carb up. Both must read. Never Forget you Dan.

**BigD** · 04-29-2002, 11:04 AM

Is a diet like this only good for when preparing for a show or is it a good diet if you have a lot of fat and trying to lower your body fat?

**caseylee** · 04-29-2002, 12:17 PM

Originally posted by BigD
Is a diet like this only good for when preparing for a show or is it a good diet if you have a lot of fat and trying to lower your body fat?

bumb for this question and i have a couple more, over all were you guys happy with this diet?, and was it hard to the extent that you guys think you coulda lost the bf another way? ... and i have a slightly higher bf% than most of you guys ... pushing 20% ... would this be good for a person like me ?? i would love to get down to 8-10% by end of summer ?? end of summer is to far, i want it now haha but lemme know what you guys think about all this ... and also what precausions i should take !? thanks guys

**jbrand** · 04-29-2002, 01:25 PM

Originally posted by caseylee

bumb for this question and i have a couple more, over all were you guys happy with this diet?, and was it hard to the extent that you guys think you coulda lost the bf another way? ... and i have a slightly higher bf% than most of you guys ... pushing 20% ... would this be good for a person like me ?? i would love to get down to 8-10% by end of summer ?? end of summer is to far, i want it now haha but lemme know what you guys think about all this ... and also what precausions i should take !? thanks guys

I see no reason to limit a ketogenic diet to contest preperation. It is an effective diet regimen regardless who uses it and what their starting bf percentage is. The diet is not the easiest, but as with anything else it grows on you with time. There are a million and one ways to diet, but the ketogenic diet has biological factors that you will not find with any other diet (ketones burn 7 calories per gram, opposed to 4).

**cobra kid** · 04-29-2002, 01:34 PM

As far as I know, it will work just as well for somebody with a higher bf%. This is my first time and I'm five days in. I've been in ketosis since the begining of third day. I actually already lost some weight which is probably all water so far. From what i've read it's an easy way to lose fat but equally easy to lose muscle if you're not careful. As soon as I get my clen , i'm gonna run that for it's anti-catabolic purposes.

caseylee,
It is actually kinda easy to follow. You can either do the diet with the carb up or you can just stay in keto. The carb up will probably be better to keep muscle. If you go shopping before you start that would help out alot becuase you don't have to struggle to find low carb foods. I think your goal is very realistic as long as you are dedicated. As far as precautions. Don't go to low on fat, but don't get too much either. Get some flax oil, metamucil(no fiber=no shit......don't want to feel like your having a baby do ya

), vitamin because this definately isn't a balanced diet, and something to supress your appetite if you can't control craving(ECA is great).......I'm definately not an expert so double check with somebody else.

**beenie** · 04-29-2002, 01:37 PM

Originally posted by caseylee

bumb for this question and i have a couple more, over all were you guys happy with this diet?, and was it hard to the extent that you guys think you coulda lost the bf another way? ... and i have a slightly higher bf% than most of you guys ... pushing 20% ... would this be good for a person like me ?? i would love to get down to 8-10% by end of summer ?? end of summer is to far, i want it now haha but lemme know what you guys think about all this ... and also what precausions i should take !? thanks guys

Low/No carb diets are great for people with higher body fat. I started at close to 30% and am now down under 10%. It is not the only way to go, but it should be an option.

Your goal of going from 20%bf to 8% bf by the end of the summer does not seem realistic to me. If you work very hard and dont cheat, I think a more reasonable expectation would be areound 13 or 14%. At least for me, once I go below 13% it becomes very difficult to go lower and you have to begin to manage everything including diet and exersize very carefully.

Suffice to say, I see people here who plan every meal in thier diets, e.g., at 8 am 10 egg whites at 11 am a protien shake, etc. I don't do that. I have a general idea of what I am going to eat, keep it low carb, and try to not eat in excess. With the cardio it works for me.

**beenie** · 04-29-2002, 01:42 PM

Originally posted by cobra kid
As far as I know, it will work just as well for somebody with a higher bf%. This is my first time and I'm five days in. I've been in ketosis since the begining of third day. I actually already lost some weight which is probably all water so far. From what i've read it's an easy way to lose fat but equally easy to lose muscle if you're not careful. As soon as I get my clen , i'm gonna run that for it's anti-catabolic purposes.

In ANY diet you may lose muscle if you are not careful. That being said, you are less likely in low carb becasue of the increases in protien. Protien builds muscle.

The only time I had a serious problem with muscle loss was when i tried low carb/low fat.

Pardon the pun, but think of it as food for thought.

**jbrand** · 04-29-2002, 02:15 PM

Originally posted by beenie

Low/No carb diets are great for people with higher body fat. I started at close to 30% and am now down under 10%. It is not the only way to go, but it should be an option.

Your goal of going from 20%bf to 8% bf by the end of the summer does not seem realistic to me. If you work very hard and dont cheat, I think a more reasonable expectation would be areound 13 or 14%. At least for me, once I go below 13% it becomes very difficult to go lower and you have to begin to manage everything including diet and exersize very carefully.

Suffice to say, I see people here who plan every meal in thier diets, e.g., at 8 am 10 egg whites at 11 am a protien shake, etc. I don't do that. I have a general idea of what I am going to eat, keep it low carb, and try to not eat in excess. With the cardio it works for me.

that's incredible progress bro.

**Vinchenso** · 05-05-2002, 12:32 AM

This is my first time on the forum and "keto questions" was the first post I opened. I'm so impressed with the variety of articulate, informative and insightful replies to Cobra's question. Members obviously are willing to not only take the time but spend some thought on what they could add that would really be helpful. This is how a forum should work. Glad to be on board.

Just finished writing a couple of things on the subject that perhaps some readers will find helpful, maybe educational, likey somewhat novel, and/ or at least (hopefuly) somewhat interesting. I have to edit it however, and don't have time right this moment. I'll post maybe tomorrow. Look forward to getting to know some of you and developing into a contributing member to the site.

**Buddha_Red** · 11-06-2002, 07:41 AM

this is a great thread.

I have really started getting into finding and making low carb meals. Its not so bad if you can break it up with some non-"keto" tasting food now and then.

I have really been thinking about starting a "cutting" diet again. its been a long time since i was on one. I lost 60lbs doing no more than 20 carbs a day.

but i wasnt lifting and had almost no muscle at all. I am interested in the effects on what mass i have gained since my fina cycle.

Keep the info going here. i'm learning so much from each of you.

**beenie** · 11-06-2002, 09:05 AM

Originally posted by Buddha_Red
this is a great thread.

I have really started getting into finding and making low carb meals. Its not so bad if you can break it up with some non-"keto" tasting food now and then.

I have really been thinking about starting a "cutting" diet again. its been a long time since i was on one. I lost 60lbs doing no more than 20 carbs a day.

but i wasnt lifting and had almost no muscle at all. I am interested in the effects on what mass i have gained since my fina cycle.

Keep the info going here. i'm learning so much from each of you.

Muscles are made from prootien and protien intake increases in low carb dieting, so losses are minimal. I have found that buling is hard on low carb diets because you never get any fat in your body to convert to muscle. As a result I would say that low carb is beter for cutting than it is for bulking. This is not scentific, its just my observation.

**Vinchenso** · 11-08-2002, 04:31 AM

Cyclical Ketogenic Diets were originally conceived and later reformed as a tool to manipulate one's own endocrine system into providing a hormonal miliieu conducive to muscle growth (anabolism) without the use of exogenous aids and without turning the would-be-bodybuilder into a pig. Ketosis and low carb diets are tricks that allow the bodybuilder to better manage the Kingpin of the anabolic drive, that double-edged sword we all love to hate, the biggest problem causer and sometimes the only problem solver, insulin . All bodybuilders must contend with insulin if they are to make any significant changes, whether a beginner trying to gain weight, a weekend warrior trying to lose bodyfat, or a pro trying to pack on 10 lbs. of muscle beyond what a lifetime of overfeeding, training,steroids ,growth hormone etc. allowed him/her to have. I always gain significant amounts of muscle on CKD, and I am able to do so losing 2-4 lbs. week of fat. I think that I am able to transform my body faster (drug free) when I spend most of my days taking in under 10 g carbs with periodic 24-72 hour carb- ups than when I use high dosages of various yet simultaneous pharmaceuticals and follow a "normal" diet."