new PWO ideas

[24labor]

I've been using fruit lately, but just curious about apple sauce, plain old sugar or bread(anytype). Since it dosent matter what type of carb you use these should be good right?

[SwoleCat]

Fruit (fructose) is pointless PWO, as this gets stored in the liver, and then as fat once the liver is full. This does nothing to replinish muscle glycogen and begin the repair process.


~SC~

[chest6]

Lately this is what I changed to..

Lil more than a cup of skim milk, 40g whey and 1 cup of oats. Only thing I was worried about was fat from oats..but its only 6g its probably nothing to worry about.

[AnabolicAndre]

dextrose gives me a wicked headache...

so, i have done 40g maltodextrin and 40g dextrose

[jdh]

in my opinion 6g of fat dont sound like a lot but as far as your first pwo goes you dont want to slow the digestion by adding any fat, keep it as close to zero as possible. for your second pwo you can get away with a few grams.

[24labor]

Fruit (fructose) is pointless PWO, as this gets stored in the liver, and then as fat once the liver is full. This does nothing to replinish muscle glycogen and begin the repair process.


~SC~

didnt think so been using it for today and yesterday think I might just go with oats and milk

[SwoleCat]

I love my dextrose, more for me!

~SC~

[kaptainkeezy04]

I love my dextrose, more for me!

~SC~

ditto...swole how many avatars do you have? p.s. i like the one you have now and the front double bis in the iverson jersey.

[chest6]

I love the dex too..I was just seeing how I would react to the oats and milk just havent really been doing it long enough to really notice.

response to keezy..Iverson jersey and one with open shirt where you look 260-270 I think look the best. That contest one is pretty badass too..done before i sound more gay

[steve0]

im useing whey and oats and i have been for a while

[Kurz]

never undrestood the whole oats and milk PW thing....save that for your meal if you want....get yourself some dext and whey, or vitargo and whey, or even white bread/bagels.........

[Giantz11]

never undrestood the whole oats and milk PW thing....save that for your meal if you want....get yourself some dext and whey, or vitargo and whey, or even white bread/bagels.........

Why don't you understand it?

[Dally]

Why don't you understand it?

thats so damn rude giantz....I can't believe you...its like you'd make fun of a leper...for having leprosy.



shame on YOU.




(call me)

[Giantz11]

thats so damn rude giantz....I can't believe you...its like you make fun of a leper...for having leprosy.



shame on YOU.




(call me)

Sorry......





Are you back to being "fully" functional?

[Kurz]

just never understood why you want slow release, fibers and fats? Just my .02...not saying its wrong bro......to each his own

[Dally]

Sorry......





Are you back to being "fully" functional?

hey...its not my fault OK?


you just don't turn me on anymore......THERE I SAID IT!!


you were great lastnight tho....so.

[SwoleCat]

ditto...swole how many avatars do you have? p.s. i like the one you have now and the front double bis in the iverson jersey.

Shit bro, I have a hard-drive full of pics.

Thanks for the props!

~SC~

[SwoleCat]

just never understood why you want slow release, fibers and fats? Just my .02...not saying its wrong bro......to each his own

If it makes you feel better, we are in the same boat.

~SC~

[Giantz11]

just never understood why you want slow release, fibers and fats? Just my .02...not saying its wrong bro......to each his own

Because the rate of digestion does not matter. There is a rapid increase in glycogen synthesis that does not require insulin . After that it is much slower and does require it. So oats would be just fine:

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise

[Kärnfysikern]

Plain sugar isnt very good. Sacaros gets broken down into glucose and fructose and the fructose isnt very desirable(not at any time of the day for that matter). Only benifit I know of from fructose is that it increase uric acid production and uric acid is a antioxidant. (http://lpi.oregonstate.edu/fw04/apples.html)

Fruit is still ok but dont just get your pwo carbs from fruit alone. Some milk or oats or similar togheter with it is good if you want to try the "any gi" method.

[primetime1]

very infomative thread.. liked the back up resource too..

[Kurz]

Because the rate of digestion does not matter. There is a rapid increase in glycogen synthesis that does not require insulin . After that it is much slower and does require it. So oats would be just fine:

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise

FORGET IT!!!! I absolutely refuse to get into an argument about PW nutrition. It has been beat down more than a red-headed step child and everyone has their own opinion. Do whatever works for you. I just know from EXPERIENCE, that when I train, I train full go. I'm usually so dead after a mere hour that #1 the thought of whole food makes me nausiated PLUS the idea of fixing a meal right away isnt happening. FINALLY, when I do forget my shake or for some reason don't have one, I 100% feel it! Not then, but in my recovery the next day. I don't recover nearly as fast. don't feel as strong, or as full........esp. when I have a meal without a shake. Sorry bro, just the way it is. So in my opinion, the speed of absorption absolutley matters.....

[Phyll]

Does that mean that a mix of fast acting (dex) and slightly slower acting (oats, etc.) carb sources would be a better PWO meal?

Because the rate of digestion does not matter. There is a rapid increase in glycogen synthesis that does not require insulin . After that it is much slower and does require it. So oats would be just fine:

Determinants of post-exercise glycogen synthesis during short-term recovery.

Jentjens R, Jeukendrup A.

Human Performance Laboratory, School of Sport and Exercise Sciences, University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham, UK.

The pattern of muscle glycogen synthesis following glycogen-depleting exercise occurs in two phases. Initially, there is a period of rapid synthesis of muscle glycogen that does not require the presence of insulin and lasts about 30-60 minutes. This rapid phase of muscle glycogen synthesis is characterised by an exercise-induced translocation of glucose transporter carrier protein-4 to the cell surface, leading to an increased permeability of the muscle membrane to glucose. Following this rapid phase of glycogen synthesis, muscle glycogen synthesis occurs at a much slower rate and this phase can last for several hours. Both muscle contraction and insulin have been shown to increase the activity of glycogen synthase, the rate-limiting enzyme in glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, it has been shown that muscle glycogen concentration is a potent regulator of glycogen synthase. Low muscle glycogen concentrations following exercise are associated with an increased rate of glucose transport and an increased capacity to convert glucose into glycogen.The highest muscle glycogen synthesis rates have been reported when large amounts of carbohydrate (1.0-1.85 g/kg/h) are consumed immediately post-exercise and at 15-60 minute intervals thereafter, for up to 5 hours post-exercise. When carbohydrate ingestion is delayed by several hours, this may lead to ~50% lower rates of muscle glycogen synthesis. The addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins to a carbohydrate supplement can increase muscle glycogen synthesis rates, most probably because of an enhanced insulin response. However, when carbohydrate intake is high (>/=1.2 g/kg/h) and provided at regular intervals, a further increase in insulin concentrations by additional supplementation of protein and/or amino acids does not further increase the rate of muscle glycogen synthesis. Thus, when carbohydrate intake is insufficient (<1.2 g/kg/h), the addition of certain amino acids and/or proteins may be beneficial for muscle glycogen synthesis. Furthermore, ingestion of insulinotropic protein and/or amino acid mixtures might stimulate post-exercise net muscle protein anabolism. Suggestions have been made that carbohydrate availability is the main limiting factor for glycogen synthesis. A large part of the ingested glucose that enters the bloodstream appears to be extracted by tissues other than the exercise muscle (i.e. liver, other muscle groups or fat tissue) and may therefore limit the amount of glucose available to maximise muscle glycogen synthesis rates. Furthermore, intestinal glucose absorption may also be a rate-limiting factor for muscle glycogen synthesis when large quantities (>1 g/min) of glucose are ingested following exercise

[Giantz11]

Does that mean that a mix of fast acting (dex) and slightly slower acting (oats, etc.) carb sources would be a better PWO meal?

It actaully means that fast acting Dex is not needed at all. Since Glycogen replenishment is independant of insulin for 30-60 min.

[Giantz11]

FORGET IT!!!! I absolutely refuse to get into an argument about PW nutrition. It has been beat down more than a red-headed step child and everyone has their own opinion. Do whatever works for you. I just know from EXPERIENCE, that when I train, I train full go. I'm usually so dead after a mere hour that #1 the thought of whole food makes me nausiated PLUS the idea of fixing a meal right away isnt happening. FINALLY, when I do forget my shake or for some reason don't have one, I 100% feel it! Not then, but in my recovery the next day. I don't recover nearly as fast. don't feel as strong, or as full........esp. when I have a meal without a shake. Sorry bro, just the way it is. So in my opinion, the speed of absorption absolutley matters.....

No need for an argument at all. You are correct, it has been talked about quite a bit. But the fact remains that there are some people that do not wana even hear the other side. And by the way I train hard too and still manage a bagel PWO. Even after legs days when I'm just about to puke every sec.

[Phyll]

lol, for me, one of things that really helps getting done with a grueling workout is knowing that you'll be eating some very very large sweet protein shake very soon, maybe add a couple of caramel rice cakes in there and damn that's a deal

[kaptainkeezy04]

FORGET IT!!!! I absolutely refuse to get into an argument about PW nutrition. It has been beat down more than a red-headed step child and everyone has their own opinion. Do whatever works for you. I just know from EXPERIENCE, that when I train, I train full go. I'm usually so dead after a mere hour that #1 the thought of whole food makes me nausiated PLUS the idea of fixing a meal right away isnt happening. FINALLY, when I do forget my shake or for some reason don't have one, I 100% feel it! Not then, but in my recovery the next day. I don't recover nearly as fast. don't feel as strong, or as full........esp. when I have a meal without a shake. Sorry bro, just the way it is. So in my opinion, the speed of absorption absolutley matters.....

damn man i feel exactly the same way...i am so tired and worn down after a workout that any kind of whole food pwo would make me sick...just the thought of being all sweaty and tired and trying to force down that lumpy thick oatmeal makes me sick right now...

IMHO i feel that the best (and most convenient) way to go is IMMEDIATELY pwo consume 100 grams of dextrose and 5 grams of creatine (i actually take in 5 grams of bcaas too but its not NECESSARY)...and then as soon as you are done chuggin down that stuff...start chuggin 50 grams of whey protein...

NOW TO GIANTZ....
you seem to have a lot of proof to back up your opinion that "any carb is a go" pwo...so i am not saying you are wrong but lets think about it...i mean logically it makes sense for one to think that a powder blended or shakin into a liquid is gonna be a lot easier for the body to digest and therefore send to muscles faster than something like a bagel or oatmeal and such.

[Kärnfysikern]

kaptain the point is that you dont need to get carbs to the muscle fast. Only aminos. Unless you plan on doing something that needs full glycogen stores later on the same day.

A workout doesnt even deplete muscle glycogen to any great extent, unless you do a arnold 3 hour 50 set workout.

[Kurz]

Who the hell cares???? If it works for someone, let it go....just as long as you give both sides a fair chance.....

Just for me, if I can eat solid food when I'm done training, esp. something as fiberous as oats or a bagel, or even fruit such as an apple......I know I didnt train very hard.

Why would I want my body to now have to focus on digesting solids, when I just put it through the ringer in the gym?>????

[Kärnfysikern]

kurz just because you arent interested in this discussion doesnt have any bearing on what the rest of the board wants. No one is forcing you to read or post in this thread.

Also remember we have never said high gi doesnt work.

I have done both things and given both sides a fair chanse.

[Giantz11]

damn man i feel exactly the same way...i am so tired and worn down after a workout that any kind of whole food pwo would make me sick...just the thought of being all sweaty and tired and trying to force down that lumpy thick oatmeal makes me sick right now...

IMHO i feel that the best (and most convenient) way to go is IMMEDIATELY pwo consume 100 grams of dextrose and 5 grams of creatine (i actually take in 5 grams of bcaas too but its not NECESSARY)...and then as soon as you are done chuggin down that stuff...start chuggin 50 grams of whey protein...

NOW TO GIANTZ....
you seem to have a lot of proof to back up your opinion that "any carb is a go" pwo...so i am not saying you are wrong but lets think about it...i mean logically it makes sense for one to think that a powder blended or shakin into a liquid is gonna be a lot easier for the body to digest and therefore send to muscles faster than something like a bagel or oatmeal and such.

Logically that is incorrect. Since Glycogen synthesis is insulin independant for up to 60min, slower digesting is fine. Protein Synthesis peaks at 24hr after exerxcise, again digestion is not an issue:

Can J Appl Physiol. 1995 Dec;20(4):480-6
The time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis following heavy resistance exercise.

MacDougall JD, Gibala MJ, Tarnopolsky MA, MacDonald JR, Interisano SA, Yarasheski KE.

Department of Kinesiology, McMaster University, Hamilton, Ontario.

It has been shown that muscle protein synthetic rate (MPS) is elevated in humans by 50% at 4 hrs following a bout of heavy resistance training, and by 109% at 24 hrs following training. This study further examined the time course for elevated muscle protein synthesis by examining its rate at 36 hrs following a training session. Six healthy young men performed 12 sets of 6- to 12-RM elbow flexion exercises with one arm while the opposite arm served as a control. MPS was calculated from the in vivo rate of incorporation of L-[1,2-13C2] leucine into biceps brachii of both arms using the primed constant infusion technique over 11 hrs. At an average time of 36 hrs postexercise, MPS in the exercised arm had returned to within 14% of the control arm value, the difference being nonsignificant. It is concluded that following a bout of heavy resistance training, MPS increases rapidly, is more than double at 24 hrs, and thereafter declines rapidly so that at 36 hrs it has almost returned to baseline.

[Giantz11]

Who the hell cares???? If it works for someone, let it go....just as long as you give both sides a fair chance.....

Just for me, if I can eat solid food when I'm done training, esp. something as fiberous as oats or a bagel, or even fruit such as an apple......I know I didnt train very hard.

Why would I want my body to now have to focus on digesting solids, when I just put it through the ringer in the gym?>????

That fine and as you can see I'm not trying at all to argue here. I also do not equate a good workout with an inablility to eat. I just man up and eat. If you can't do it, then shakes are fine. I could care less what you do. You said you didn't understand why people would want to slow digestion and I stated that digestion doesn't matter.

[jdh]

if your going to have have oats you might as well wait an hour to consume anything at all and throw out your second pwo all together. im not sure how some of you can consume a whole food meal immediately after workout anyway. exercise suppresses appetite,so if your goin balls to the walls training and are spent it should be quite diffictult for you to down about a whole cup of oats among the other crap you guys mention.

[Giantz11]

I do it, I wouldn't use working out hard as an excuse either. I just do it.

[BIGswang]

Does that mean that a mix of fast acting (dex) and slightly slower acting (oats, etc.) carb sources would be a better PWO meal?

how many oats would you put in a shake then

[Giantz11]

However many grams of carbs you are shooting for.

[Kurz]

if your going to have have oats you might as well wait an hour to consume anything at all and throw out your second pwo all together. im not sure how some of you can consume a whole food meal immediately after workout anyway. exercise suppresses appetite,so if your goin balls to the walls training and are spent it should be quite diffictult for you to down about a whole cup of oats among the other crap you guys mention.

Agreed.....so in theory, giantz - you are saying it doesn't matter if it's after you drop the last weight or within the hour window? maybe 1.5 hours? I could do a full meal then.....

I usually go:

premeal : 3pm
train 500pm
shake 630pm
meal 730pm
casein/pb shake at 900 before bed.

[Giantz11]

Agreed.....so in theory, giantz - you are saying it doesn't matter if it's after you drop the last weight or within the hour window? maybe 1.5 hours? I could do a full meal then.....

I usually go:

premeal : 3pm
train 500pm
shake 630pm
meal 730pm
casein/pb shake at 900 before bed.

Yeah something like that, I'd say to try and get it in within 1 hr. I usually eat about 45min PWO as I have to settle down a but and get osme water in me.

[chest6]

Kurz just because you seem to be a little closeminded does not mean the other side of the equation does not work. Try something before you bash it.

[Kurz]

haha...I'm the last one to be closed minded bro.....how many times did I say do what works???? I've done them all...honestly. It's all good chesty...it's all good. ok, i'll skip my shake tonight and report back in the am.