Postworkout nutrition: Insulin vs. Glucagon (& HGH)

**barondumonde** · 01-03-2008, 01:58 AM

Without going into too much detail, an insulin rush blunts the release of hgh after working out, which can mean that your joints are deprived of a significant stimulus for repair, and your muscles are deprived of a significant stimulus to hyperplasia.

Is this really what we want? I spoke to a doctor a little while back who wrote an article on the "carbohydrate myth" -- that carbs supply energy and that people actually need them after they workout. He wrote a lot and recommended pure protein for the several hours after your workout, and said that growth hormone builds more muscle than an insulin rush. Personally, I don't think he has all his ideas quite worked out, but I think that the insulin may make a regular person fat, but helps repair muscles after strenuous exercise. At the same time, I can also see the guy's point on how it will also blunt the hgh and deny us the benefits from there.

What do you guys think?

**Distorted1987** · 01-08-2008, 09:20 PM

Wow. Thats a little scary.

**Chronic** · 01-09-2008, 08:24 AM

Any references?

**kman** · 01-09-2008, 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Chronic

Any references?

Would like to see some as well

**M302_Imola** · 01-10-2008, 11:14 AM

subscribed!

**llrockyll** · 01-11-2008, 06:38 PM

sounds like BS to me. there have been tons of studies done that support taking in carbs after training.

**soulstealer** · 01-11-2008, 09:33 PM

Actually guys as far as I understand it he has a point As IGF-1 being the hormone the GH injections cause the body to secrete have to compete for the receptor sights with insulin ..... It was a question I posted to gear as it might be more beneficial in a circumstance such as this where one is using both to initiate the HGH inject Pre workout and get IGF-1 lvls through the roof then while still have the hypoglycemia due to reduced insulin sensitivity and increased IGF-1 lvls from the gh injection as they are elevated for hours after wards and then run the slin PWO with your PWO shake for nutritional/recover/glucose level controlling action.....

But its even though it is proven IGF-1 and slin compete for receptors.. the superiority of one method over the other have not been studied I dont think...

And as for nothing but protein PWO I cant see that as an advantage unless you were running insulin with your other meals completely foregoing it PWO...and as for a natural release of insulin I fail to see how that would be a huge hindrance under normal metabolic circumstances...

**llrockyll** · 01-11-2008, 09:37 PM

Originally Posted by soulstealer

Actually guys as far as I understand it he has a point As IGF-1 being the hormone the GH injections cause the body to secrete have to compete for the receptor sights with insulin ..... It was a question I posted to gear as it might be more beneficial in a circumstance such as this where one is using both to initiate the HGH inject Pre workout and get IGF-1 lvls through the roof then while still have the hypoglycemia due to reduced insulin sensitivity and increased IGF-1 lvls from the gh injection as they are elevated for hours after wards and then run the slin PWO with your PWO shake for nutritional/recover/glucose level controlling action.....

But its even though it is proven IGF-1 and slin compete for receptors.. the superiority of one method over the other have not been studied I dont think...

And as for nothing but protein PWO I cant see that as an advantage unless you were running insulin with your other meals completely foregoing it PWO...

ur talking about injecting gh pwo hes talking about our natural spurts. carbs are needed to get us back into an anabolic state

**soulstealer** · 01-12-2008, 10:32 AM

Originally Posted by llrockyll

ur talking about injecting gh pwo hes talking about our natural spurts. carbs are needed to get us back into an anabolic state

I am also sighting that exogenious hormones and endogenious hormones act the same on the receptors so one would conclude with a natural raise in GH during exercise you would have a similar action from an insulin response occurring after ingesting a sugar laden drink... so its simple which is more efficient at promoting muscle growth insulin or IGF-1...

**Chronic** · 01-12-2008, 01:16 PM

Although insulin suppresses GH secretion initially... isn't the release of insulin required to reap the benefits of the elevated GH/IGF1 levels?

**soulstealer** · 01-12-2008, 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by Chronic

Although insulin suppresses GH secretion initially... isn't the release of insulin required to reap the benefits of the elevated GH/IGF1 levels?

Theres a debate about that its not GH secretion thats supressed but competition for receptor bonding from the IGF-1 and the insulin as I understand it.... so I would assume that if your natural taking the carbs PWO would be beneficial and if your running GH/slin then timing could be debated...

**Chronic** · 01-12-2008, 01:59 PM

Interesting… you obviously know a lot more about this than I do. Do you happen to have anymore information related to the discussion?

soulstealer, do the BCAA’s in a standard whey protein induce an insulin response (without carbs)?

Thanks.

**soulstealer** · 01-12-2008, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by Chronic

Interesting… you obviously know a lot more about this than I do. Do you happen to have anymore information related to the discussion?

soulstealer, do the BCAA’s in a standard whey protein induce an insulin response (without carbs)?

Thanks.

Wow you learn something new every day.... they do check it.... I'm surprised

Leucine and the Modulation of Insulin Release

As many know, the release of insulin has been correlated with many anabolic properties involved with tissue building. Insulin has been proven to stimulate protein synthesis and inhibit protein breakdown when administered both during and post-exercise (Manninen et al, 2006).

Interestingly, in an investigation by Manninen in 2006 involving the supplementation of a carbohydrate, protein hydrolysate, and leucine mixture taken during exercise, it was demonstrated that this mixture leads to greater increases in skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength vs. a placebo supplement.

It was once believed that insulin secretion was controlled almost entirely by blood glucose concentration. It's since become apparent that amino acids play a crucial role in the regulation of insulin secretion. Certain amino acids have been shown to cause insulin release in humans, even under conditions where blood sugar levels are normal (Manninen et al, 2006).

Of course, in order for most amino acids to effectively stimulate pancreatic beta cell insulin release, permissive levels of blood glucose (2.5 — 5.0 mM) must be present. Interestingly, leucine is an exception, as it's the only amino acid capable of increasing circulating insulin levels regardless of blood glucose concentration (Manninen et al, 2006). The increase of insulin has been shown to decrease the rate of muscle protein degradation.

By limiting protein degradation, leucine may allow for a net protein synthesis post-resistance exercise, leading to greater muscle hypertrophy. Essentially, this insulin response will provide an environment that promotes tissue building, as opposed to tissue breakdown.

Yet here's an important question: if an insulin release produces muscle growth, why wouldn't you simply drink a carbohydrate solution to get this insulin response?

In a study examining plasma insulin release, a 221% greater insulin response was achieved when subjects ingested a high glycemic carbohydrate bolus with protein hydrolysate and leucine as opposed to carbohydrate alone. When the subjects ingested carbohydrate with protein hydrolysate, but without leucine, a 66% greater insulin response was observed than with carbohydrate alone (Manninen et al, 2006).

Based on these results, it's evident that leucine supplementation is beneficial to resistance exercise in terms of its ability to modulate insulin signaling. Post-exercise hyperinsulinaemia (high insulin) supported by hyperaminoacidaemia (high amino acids) induced by protein hydrolysate and leucine ingestion increases net protein deposition in muscle, leading to increased skeletal muscle hypertrophy and strength (Manninen et al, 2006).

So, the bottom line is this: during and post-exercise, it's ideal to ingest a fast-digesting drink of hydrolyzed protein, sugary carbs, and some additional BCAA (especially leucine) because of the combined high blood insulin and high blood amino acid concentrations that accompany such a beverage.

However, based on the research, this type of drink doesn't only work through the modulation of insulin release. Leucine helps grow muscle because it's also a key element in the activation of translational pathways responsible for muscle growth.

This data by itself would debunk the origin of this article as it shows simply ingesting the BCAA's and other amino's in a whey protein shake w/o carbs PWO would impact the absorption of IGF-1 as well due to insulin response... so it would seem as though the tried and true PWO shake is good to go

**barondumonde** · 01-12-2008, 07:25 PM

thanks for the above info...I'll find my doctor's book to show you guys what he says...

**barondumonde** · 01-12-2008, 07:37 PM

I'm looking through this guys book right now...he doesn't advocate eating no carbs...he says you need a balanced post workout meal as advocated by barry sears in the Zone diet.

His argument is that too many carbs stimulates too much insulin , which brings down your blood sugar way too far and glycogenolysis stops. So ideally you want your blood sugar stable. When I spoke to him a year ago...he recommended some fruit before working out to keep your blood sugar up during your workout (fructose is low-moderate glycemic), and pure whey protein immediately after your workout, and then a balanced meal about an hour PWO emphasizing protein but with low-glycemic carbs as well as plenty of good fats.

**soulstealer** · 01-13-2008, 08:27 AM

Originally Posted by barondumonde

I'm looking through this guys book right now...he doesn't advocate eating no carbs...he says you need a balanced post workout meal as advocated by barry sears in the Zone diet.

His argument is that too many carbs stimulates too much insulin, which brings down your blood sugar way too far and glycogenolysis stops. So ideally you want your blood sugar stable. When I spoke to him a year ago...he recommended some fruit before working out to keep your blood sugar up during your workout (fructose is low-moderate glycemic), and pure whey protein immediately after your workout, and then a balanced meal about an hour PWO emphasizing protein but with low-glycemic carbs as well as plenty of good fats.

There are 2 schools of thought one is dextrose or the like PWO for insulin spike... and one is it doesnt matter just eat your meal.... I personally use dextrose because I use insulin PWO at times... so its a necessity.. for you if your concerned about the sugar (which you shouldnt be) then just eat fruits/oatmeal and the like PWO you'll be fine....