"Estrogen Control, Treatment, and PCT by WARMachine"

[WARMachine]

IM BAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCKKKKKKKKKKK!!!!!!


Special sorry to Wukillabee. Sorry bro, bad timing...

[jab1234]

War/Swifto thanks for supplying such great informatin regarding pct. I have read both your pct threads however I just need some clarification if you will.

In regards to HCG use, I am reading conflicting recommendations of how/when to use HCG.

First of all I received prescription HCG from a Dr. which states to use 500iu/ed for pct. Now everything I have read is counter to this, as it does not give you benefits during pct but should rather be used during the cycle.

With that being said, the dosing recommendations on stickies on this site vary from 125 iu's/e2d to 500 iu/ed. This is a wide range to say the least.

Also the start times conflict. One says to start 4 weeks prior to last shot while another states 3 weeks prior to when the last ester leaves your blood, which I would imagine for say test c would be to start the week of or the week before your last shot.

As you can see I have some confusion due to the different bits of info on our site. Could you clarify this for me.

My understanding at this point is:

Start HCG/Nolva prior to last shot (when to start is to be determined)
Carry this up to when pct starts. At this time stop HCG and continue with Nolva/Clomid (or what other Serms)

Thanks in advance and keep up the great work!

[wukillabee]

Thanks for the quick response bro! I was thinking to start l-dex (more affordable than pharm grade tabs but i do have some just in case) from day one of cycle at .25mg e3d. If i still get erse/gyno symptoms then to bump the dose to .5mg ed and go from there. If that doesnt do the trick even at 1mg ed then start my pharm grade tabs of letro and go from there. I also have pharm grade bromo and liquid prami on hand for prolactin problems too. Does this sound ok?
My exp with erse's: My first cycle was just test enth. Around week 6ish i got sensitive nips for a few days, then about the 5th day of itchy nips i noticed a super small pea size lump forming in each nip, i then started .5mg of l-dex ed and after only 7 days all erse's went away! I then stayed on .25mg l-dex rest of cycle just to be safe. Problem here though is the second i started l-dex even after lowering the dose, all gains in all areas came to a complete stop which sucked!
Second cycle was just test prop (some orals here and there). Around week 6ish again i got the sensitive nips. I then started 20mg pharm grade nolva tabs ed and again, after exactly 7 days all erse's went away. This time though i didnt take any serm/ai after symptoms went away and continued the cycle to 13 weeks with no more flare ups.
Now, knowing all this i was planning a cycle like this soon:
weeks 1-4 dbol 40-50mg ed
weeks 1-12 or 14 deca 450mg week
weeks 1-14 or 16 test 500 (250cyp+250enth) week
weeks 4-start of pct hcg 250iu week
day 1 until pct proviron 50mg ed
PCT: Starts 2 weeks after last shot
Week 1 clomid 100mg ed
Weeks 2-5 clomid 50mg ed
weeks 1-5 nolva 20mg ed
Now with this cycle in mind, what kind of erse prevention would u suggest bro? I know theres no ai in pct because im sure youll have me run an ai throughout the cycle til start of pct (probably l-dex). If i had to i might be able to get some liquid aromasin for pct, not gonna make an order just for some aromasin tabs, source wouldnt like that, hehe. What do you think bro?
Not sure on weeks of deca and test yet. Gonna see how i react to deca, if good then ill run deca 14 weeks, if bad then depending how bad i react will depend on how long but im sure at least 12 weeks. Of course test will be ran at least 2 weeks longer than the deca. Should i include proviron in the pct or will that not really make a difference for recovery? Ive used hcg in my last cycle leading up to pct and i recovered pretty dang quick so thats why im hard on using it this cycle and all for that matter! Last time i ran hcg i just did 1000iu week for 5 weeks leading up to start of pct. This time i want to run 250iu week starting from when im shut down til start of pct and see if that makes recovery any easier. Open to any and all suggestions, thanks!

Bump for War now hes back. Only thing im changing is proviron dose to 75mg ed from day one til start of pct. Might even do 50mg ed first couple weeks of pct just to help with libido. Should i include nolva in my pct? I know nolva is a big no no with a 19-nor on cycle but what about pct? I think im pretty much squared away everywhere else, just not sure about what ive asked. Since im gyno prone, thinking about doing .5mg of l-dex ed throughout cycle from day one til start of pct. If i use an ai for the whole cycle, do i still need an ai (aromasin) during pct? I would assume not but not sure. Thanks!

[WARMachine]

Sorry guys. Im fvckin buzzed right now. I promise ill check this out tomorrow afternoon. lol...

Sorry again!

[WARMachine]

Thanks for the quick response bro! I was thinking to start l-dex (more affordable than pharm grade tabs but i do have some just in case) from day one of cycle at .25mg e3d. If i still get erse/gyno symptoms then to bump the dose to .5mg ed and go from there. If that doesnt do the trick even at 1mg ed then start my pharm grade tabs of letro and go from there. I also have pharm grade bromo and liquid prami on hand for prolactin problems too. Does this sound ok?
My exp with erse's: My first cycle was just test enth. Around week 6ish i got sensitive nips for a few days, then about the 5th day of itchy nips i noticed a super small pea size lump forming in each nip, i then started .5mg of l-dex ed and after only 7 days all erse's went away! I then stayed on .25mg l-dex rest of cycle just to be safe. Problem here though is the second i started l-dex even after lowering the dose, all gains in all areas came to a complete stop which sucked!
Second cycle was just test prop (some orals here and there). Around week 6ish again i got the sensitive nips. I then started 20mg pharm grade nolva tabs ed and again, after exactly 7 days all erse's went away. This time though i didnt take any serm/ai after symptoms went away and continued the cycle to 13 weeks with no more flare ups.
Now, knowing all this i was planning a cycle like this soon:
weeks 1-4 dbol 40-50mg ed
weeks 1-12 or 14 deca 450mg week
weeks 1-14 or 16 test 500 (250cyp+250enth) week
weeks 4-start of pct hcg 250iu week
day 1 until pct proviron 50mg ed
PCT: Starts 2 weeks after last shot
Week 1 clomid 100mg ed
Weeks 2-5 clomid 50mg ed
weeks 1-5 nolva 20mg ed
Now with this cycle in mind, what kind of erse prevention would u suggest bro? I know theres no ai in pct because im sure youll have me run an ai throughout the cycle til start of pct (probably l-dex). If i had to i might be able to get some liquid aromasin for pct, not gonna make an order just for some aromasin tabs, source wouldnt like that, hehe. What do you think bro?
Not sure on weeks of deca and test yet. Gonna see how i react to deca, if good then ill run deca 14 weeks, if bad then depending how bad i react will depend on how long but im sure at least 12 weeks. Of course test will be ran at least 2 weeks longer than the deca. Should i include proviron in the pct or will that not really make a difference for recovery? I wouldnt bother personally. Ive used hcg in my last cycle leading up to pct and i recovered pretty dang quick so thats why im hard on using it this cycle and all for that matter! Use the hCG throughout. Ive used it as well, and recovered much easier, or so it seemed. Last time i ran hcg i just did 1000iu week for 5 weeks leading up to start of pct. This time i want to run 250iu week starting from when im shut down til start of pct and see if that makes recovery any easier. Open to any and all suggestions, thanks!




Bump for War now hes back. Only thing im changing is proviron dose to 75mg ed from day one til start of pct. Might even do 50mg ed first couple weeks of pct just to help with libido. Should i include nolva in my pct? I know nolva is a big no no with a 19-nor on cycle but what about pct? Nolva in PCT is fine. Even when running a 19-Nor. Nolvadex (Or Tam) is the conerstone for any PCT

I think im pretty much squared away everywhere else, just not sure about what ive asked. Since im gyno prone, thinking about doing .5mg of l-dex ed throughout cycle from day one til start of pct. If i use an ai for the whole cycle, do i still need an ai (aromasin) during pct? I would assume not but not sure. Thanks! If you use an AI during the cycle, i wouldnt bother with one during PCT.

Now i have one question for you, have you used Proviron on cycle before? Im a lilttle hesitent advising you to use another AI if youre using Proviron. Cause it can control ERSEs to a degree, though i wouldnt rely on it if youre ERSE prone, which it seems you are...

Tough position honestly, Ill wait for your response tomorrow.

BTW, not to worry, ive sobered up a lil..

[WARMachine]

War/Swifto thanks for supplying such great informatin regarding pct. I have read both your pct threads however I just need some clarification if you will.

In regards to HCG use, I am reading conflicting recommendations of how/when to use HCG.

First of all I received prescription HCG from a Dr. which states to use 500iu/ed for pct. Now everything I have read is counter to this, as it does not give you benefits during pct but should rather be used during the cycle.

With that being said, the dosing recommendations on stickies on this site vary from 125 iu's/e2d to 500 iu/ed. This is a wide range to say the least.

Also the start times conflict. One says to start 4 weeks prior to last shot while another states 3 weeks prior to when the last ester leaves your blood, which I would imagine for say test c would be to start the week of or the week before your last shot.

As you can see I have some confusion due to the different bits of info on our site. Could you clarify this for me.

My understanding at this point is:

Start HCG/Nolva prior to last shot (when to start is to be determined)
Carry this up to when pct starts. At this time stop HCG and continue with Nolva/Clomid (or what other Serms)

Thanks in advance and keep up the great work!

I personally do not run hCG during my PCT. I prefer to run it during my cycle, leading up to my PCT.

I usually dont use more than 1000 IUs a week. Generally i take a 500IU injection 2xW for 4-6 weeks leading up to my PCT.

I tend to agree with Swifto on this particular topic. Again, its up to you though bud. Its what guys with first hand knowledge tell you, or a Dr. But if he isnt an endocrinologist, i would formulate my own opinions on this matter. Most regular M.D.s dont have much experience on the subject of the human endo system.

[wukillabee]

BTW, not to worry, ive sobered up a lil..

Never used proviron ever. I do have enough now to run 75mg ed throughout cycle. I know it works as a slight ai but since im gyno prone to even just test, im sure it wont be enough. Thats why im thinking of running l-dex maybe .5mg eod? Since im running the proviron at this dose maybe l-dex .25mg eod? This was my plan then if gyno symps still popped up id run the l-dex at 1mg ed and bromo at 1.25mg ed (first few days then work up to 2.5mg ed split) til the sides went away. If that doesnt help then i have liquid letro i can dose at whatever need be or pharm grade letro tabs that i could barely break in half theyre so damn small so would be doses of 1.25mg for those. Letro of course would be last resort. Im sure the 1mg l-dex ed and up to 2.5mg pharm grade bromo ed would take care of any gyno/prolactin symps that would pop up. Then id continue the l-dex at .25mg eod rest of cycle. Sound cool or am i missing something?
I guess ill run the nolva with my pct. Just read so many horror stories bout people with a 19-nor and nolva involved. Then again i think all those stories they used the nolva on cycle to fight the 19-nor gyno symps, not in pct.

[jab1234]

another quick question:

Should I stop taking my AI (L-Dex) when I start HCG /Nolva while on cycle? I understand that Nolva reduces the performance of AI's so would it even be worthwhile to continue taking my .5mg/e2d?

thx

[WARMachine]

Never used proviron ever. I do have enough now to run 75mg ed throughout cycle. I know it works as a slight ai but since im gyno prone to even just test, im sure it wont be enough. Thats why im thinking of running l-dex maybe .5mg eod? Since im running the proviron at this dose maybe l-dex .25mg eod? This was my plan then if gyno symps still popped up id run the l-dex at 1mg ed and bromo at 1.25mg ed (first few days then work up to 2.5mg ed split) til the sides went away. If that doesnt help then i have liquid letro i can dose at whatever need be or pharm grade letro tabs that i could barely break in half theyre so damn small so would be doses of 1.25mg for those. Letro of course would be last resort. Im sure the 1mg l-dex ed and up to 2.5mg pharm grade bromo ed would take care of any gyno/prolactin symps that would pop up. Then id continue the l-dex at .25mg eod rest of cycle. Sound cool or am i missing something?
I guess ill run the nolva with my pct. Just read so many horror stories bout people with a 19-nor and nolva involved. Then again i think all those stories they used the nolva on cycle to fight the 19-nor gyno symps, not in pct.

Yes, those stories are when you use Nolva while on cycle, not in PCT.

Secondly, that sounds like a good plan. Id say somewhere around .25mgs EOD to start with for the Adex. Any symptoms (which i doubt will happen), bump the dose to .5mgs EOD and thereon. Dont exceed 1mg a day however. If you need that much help from an AI, you should run some Letro and 86 whatever estrogen is there. You got it though brutha!

Whats the PCT again btw?

[WARMachine]

another quick question:

Should I stop taking my AI (L-Dex) when I start HCG /Nolva while on cycle? I understand that Nolva reduces the performance of AI's so would it even be worthwhile to continue taking my .5mg/e2d?

thx

Yes its true that Nolva reduces the effectiveness of Type II AI's.

But youre confusing me a little bit. You plan on taking Adex during the cycle, and youre gonna be using hCG AND Nolva as well?

You shouldnt use Nolva to control estrogen unless sides have already developed. You likely would experience gain losses.

So to answer your question, yes, i would continue the Adex while you use hCG on cycle. However, i wouldnt run Nolva unless side effects have already developed.

Make sense?

[The One]

bump

[jpl315]

excellent

[wukillabee]

Yes, those stories are when you use Nolva while on cycle, not in PCT.

Secondly, that sounds like a good plan. Id say somewhere around .25mgs EOD to start with for the Adex. Any symptoms (which i doubt will happen), bump the dose to .5mgs EOD and thereon. Dont exceed 1mg a day however. If you need that much help from an AI, you should run some Letro and 86 whatever estrogen is there. You got it though brutha!

Whats the PCT again btw?

Sounds good. Will be using hcg throughout cycle leading up to pct and an ai throughout cycle as well so pct will just be serms.
week 1 clomid 100mg ed
weeks 2-4 clomid 50mg ed
weeks 1-4 nolva 20mg ed
weeks 1-2 proviron 50mg ed
Just gonna throw the proviron in there to help keep me hard and libido up for those first few weeks of pct which are the hardest!

[WARMachine]

Looks great brutha! Ill be following your log again. When are you starting it so i can remember to start from the beginning.

[wukillabee]

Looks great brutha! Ill be following your log again. When are you starting it so i can remember to start from the beginning.

Leave tonite to go on vacation. Its thursday here, should be home late monday night. Will probably do injects/orals as soon as i get home monday nite then hit the gym tuesday. Will get home wayyyy too late monday to hit the gym. If we leave early then i might have time for the gym but we'll see. Gonna take before pics while on vacation literally the day before cycle so its most accurate. Probably wont look the best after 5 days of vacation and good times but hey, more of a transformation will come out of it! Gotta take a good 5 days off to get the fun out of my system before i tie the knot with this cycle for the next 16 weeks of strict everything! Helps me keep my sanity, haha.

[WARMachine]

Sounds good buddy!

[jab1234]

Yes its true that Nolva reduces the effectiveness of Type II AI's.

But youre confusing me a little bit. You plan on taking Adex during the cycle, and youre gonna be using hCG AND Nolva as well?

You shouldnt use Nolva to control estrogen unless sides have already developed. You likely would experience gain losses.

So to answer your question, yes, i would continue the Adex while you use hCG on cycle. However, i wouldnt run Nolva unless side effects have already developed.

Make sense?

The nolva isn't to control estrogen, it's to prevent the HCG from desensitizing my testes to natural LH. My estrogen has been kept in check all cycle long from my Adex use.

That's why I'm asking if Adex should be continued

[WARMachine]

Lol bro, you dont need Nolva to prevent desensitization of the testes unless youre running ridiculous doses of hCG .

Ill ask Swifto for confirmation, because im paraphrasing what hes explained to me. But thats what i took from using Nolva for that purpose.

[jab1234]

Lol bro, you dont need Nolva to prevent desensitization of the testes unless youre running ridiculous doses of hCG .

Ill ask Swifto for confirmation, because im paraphrasing what hes explained to me. But thats what i took from using Nolva for that purpose.

Ha, it will be good to know if the nolva is not necessary for sure. Just the way all the write-ups on pct read seemed like they should be taken together.

You're right I'm not taking a high dosage, (500 iu e4d)

Thanks again, I will be on the look out for your (Swifto's) response

[bvfd253]

great read man! altho i natually have a low bf% i saved the entire post just incase i get gyno someday =) dont get me wrong i like boobies but just dont want 2 get turned on in the mirror!!!!!!!! hahhahaha thanks i see alot of research went into that and im sure the community has benifited from your efforts

[ricklast]

Before going to gum I have consult with the doctor here
http://ampills.com/body-building/questions/, he recommended me a lot of interesting!

[hoons69]

Thanx heaps for this article, very informative. cleared up some things about clomid, that i was wondering about.

[WARMachine]

No one likes my thread anymore?

[peachfuzz]

dont worry little green fellow. ive been posting the link around the board

[WARMachine]

^ Thanks whoreface! Love ya babe!

[green182]

Question,

Would taking creatine (NoXplode) interfere with gyno Treatment?
I think I have aquired a slight case of the G-No on my left nipple area, it's hard to notice but I know its there.

I have had a slight case of Gyno before and treated it with Tamoxifen and had great results; but it came back... after a month of no diet or exercise.

Well I am back on track and have been at it for a month or so and still cant get rid of the gyno. I have about a week and a half left of the NoXplode and I just started taking the Tamoxifen at 30 mg ed for 3 days. Should I discontinue the use of the NoXplode for water reasons?

[green182]

I plan to run the Tamox for 4 weeks 30/30/20/20

BTW I have been taking liquidex .5 eod while on the NoXplode, and plan to continue it with the Tamoxifen treatment.

[green182]

bump

[WARMachine]

I plan to run the Tamox for 4 weeks 30/30/20/20

BTW I have been taking liquidex .5 eod while on the NoXplode, and plan to continue it with the Tamoxifen treatment.

Have you cycled before or is this gyno caused from puberty? Creatine will not cause gyno. What you may be mistaking is water retention, or fat mass in your chest area. If you have gyno, it will be tender to the touch, and be behind the nipple, generally the size of a pea if it is small, all the way to the size of a nickel.

To answer your question though, no, i would not be taking Adex while just using Creatine. If you do have gyno however, you may attempt a reduction with the use of Nolva.

-WAR

[green182]

Back in highschool I took ANDRO Poppers by Pinnacle (Androstenodione) and of course I had no knowledge of PCT or of this forum or of anything Nutrirtion or PCT etc... I also recently did a DBOL Only Cycle back in the Spring, and did do a proper PCT which consisted of Adex and Nolva 40/40/20/20. I have been following the forum daily and I am pretty knowledgable on at least all of the basics.

I DO have a spot behind my nipple, it is not sensitive, but feels almost like cartledge or scar tissue or something... I am currently taking Nolva to reduce the gyno.

I will post pics soon for better judgement

[WARMachine]

Adex and Nolva is not a good PCT. But yes, post pics for comparison sakes.

-WAR

[prodehillik]

Hi WARMachine,

So as I posted on another thread, I've been taking Letro now in order to cure my exsistence gyno.
I haven't used any juice or prohoromones for two years.
Letro is doing good job so far.

Letro
Day1: 0.25mg
Day2: 0.25mg
Day3: 0.25mg
Day4: 0.25mg
Day5: 0.25mg
Day6: 1.0mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day7: 1.0mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day8: 1.0mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day9: 1.0mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day10: 1.25mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day11: 1.25mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day12: 1.25mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day13: 1.25mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day14: 1.25mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day15: 1.0mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day16: 1.0mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day17: 1.0mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day18: 1.0mg (split morning and befor bed)< I'm here today.
Day19: 0.25mg
Day20: 0.25mg
Day21: 0.25mg
Day22: 0.25mg
Day23: 0.25mg Nolva 20mg
Nolva
Day24:40mg (split morning and befor bed)
Day25:40mg (split morning and befor bed)


Tapering down Letro begun from Day15.
I have a taper down plan as the same manner when dosing up, so it will last another 9days.
Nolva will be added on the last day of taking Letro,Day23.
I will start 20mg a day for a week, then tapering down with 10mg a day for another week.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
As long as I read your articles, you don't suggest this kind of cycle, right?
But since I've been doing this, will you give some advice?

Do you think it's good idea to taper down like this?
Or is there any better way in the middle of this?
Do I need to add something now or after Nolva finished?
Do I have to quit Letro with shorter tapering than I have now, then switch to Nolva?

As mentioned, I haven't done any juice or prohormone cylcle for two years, but Do I need to do PCT thing after Letro-Nolva?
If I do, what product(s)?

Anyway, so far my libido is fine and my joints have no problem.

Thank you in advance.

[dataGotJacked85]

I am 24 years old and i am 6ft 215 pounds been training hard for 5 years i did my first injection thursday in my glute it didnt hurt at all but it made my ass sore the next day no bruses though not that bad just hurts when i sit down.
I am starting my first sustamed 250 cycle at 250 x 2 a week for 10 weeks
is this a good cycle?

[green182]

Dude you totally posted a question in the wrong area of the forum...
go start a thread in the steroids q&a

[green182]

WAR,

Why don't you like the Adex and Nolva for my PCT?

[WARMachine]

Tapering down Letro begun from Day15.
I have a taper down plan as the same manner when dosing up, so it will last another 9days.
Nolva will be added on the last day of taking Letro,Day23.
I will start 20mg a day for a week, then tapering down with 10mg a day for another week.

Correct me if I'm wrong.
As long as I read your articles, you don't suggest this kind of cycle, right?
But since I've been doing this, will you give some advice?

Do you think it's good idea to taper down like this?
Or is there any better way in the middle of this?
Do I need to add something now or after Nolva finished?
Do I have to quit Letro with shorter tapering than I have now, then switch to Nolva?

As mentioned, I haven't done any juice or prohormone cylcle for two years, but Do I need to do PCT thing after Letro-Nolva?
If I do, what product(s)?

Anyway, so far my libido is fine and my joints have no problem.

Thank you in advance.

I dont recommend a Letro cycle as a means to reduce or reverse gyno. I feel it is ineffective. JMO.

I will answer some of your questions, and then refer you to C Bino's gyno thread for clarification regarding tapering.

1) Tapering down Letro is a must. Otherwise you will experince an estrogen rebound effect from discontinued use.
2) You dont need to add anymore AI's. Follow C Bino's method for tapering at the bottom of my post.
3) You will taper off the letro, and use the Nolva to do so. Youll be running both together for a short time, before discontinuing Letro altogether.
4) You do not need to run a PCT after attempting to reverse or reduce gyno.


C Bino's Gyno Reversal
All you need to know about GYNO.

-WAR

WAR,

Why don't you like the Adex and Nolva for my PCT?

Nolva reduces the effectiveness of Type II AI's. I cover this topic in MY second post of this sticky i believe. Please refer back.

-WAR

I am 24 years old and i am 6ft 215 pounds been training hard for 5 years i did my first injection thursday in my glute it didnt hurt at all but it made my ass sore the next day no bruses though not that bad just hurts when i sit down.
I am starting my first sustamed 250 cycle at 250 x 2 a week for 10 weeks
is this a good cycle?

Please start a your own thread on this topic in Q&A. This thread is for discussion and question pertaining to it.

-WAR

[prodehillik]

I dont recommend a Letro cycle as a means to reduce or reverse gyno. I feel it is ineffective. JMO.

I will answer some of your questions, and then refer you to C Bino's gyno thread for clarification regarding tapering.

1) Tapering down Letro is a must. Otherwise you will experince an estrogen rebound effect from discontinued use.
2) You dont need to add anymore AI's. Follow C Bino's method for tapering at the bottom of my post.
3) You will taper off the letro, and use the Nolva to do so. Youll be running both together for a short time, before discontinuing Letro altogether.
4) You do not need to run a PCT after attempting to reverse or reduce gyno.


C Bino's Gyno Reversal
All you need to know about GYNO.

-WAR

Thanks.
I know it's not good idea to combine two methods togheter and take only their merits.It's not that easy to get synergy effect....
Anyway, I appreciate.

[iTh3 Riddler]

Very informational read. Much needed info for all steroid users

[iPhotog]

War, I have a question.

I am 21 years old and have pubescent gyno and have never ran any cycles besides one cycle of Fizogen Gear Cycle with Novedex XT as pct, I know it's lame. Anyways my question is I was thinking about getting letro & Nolva to get rid of it, but I saw on a previous page to run Havoc. What kind of dosage should I be at and how long will my sex drive be gone for?

[Effort]

Taking HCG small dosage during your cycle will reduce gyno or prevent from getting it as well as when your cycle ends, and of course dont forget the volva and clomid