Should I be including HCG into my HRT

**fm2002** · 07-17-2009, 06:02 AM

My doctor recommended I include HCG in my HRT. Although I trust what he says I like to do my own research. I read this very good thread:

The most efficient way to use HCG
a must read

But if you read it it really pertains to body builders on cycles using higher doses of Testosterone and not lower dosing HRT programs.

Do any of you out there having any thoughts regarding HCG ?

I'm 90 days in on:
1.6iu ED HGH
125mg once a week Test E
25mg EOD Proviron

Thanks

**blueshadow** · 07-17-2009, 08:56 AM

I had a similar HRT cycle and my doctor also gave me HCG along with Test Cyp and HGH. I have inquired to other sources and read some posts and HCG seems to be used mainly for post cycle as a way to jump start your body into making test again.

My HCG was cheap and the doc threw in an extra vial, so I didnt mind too much and i dont think it hurts any gains, just more of a unneccasry injection from what I read

**fm2002** · 07-17-2009, 05:53 PM

If you read the thread I linked in my thread it may make you wonder about the need for HCG . I guess the big question is at the level of Test we are taking or at what dose level of Test does it warrant HCG in making sure the testes keep firing. I would hate to find out down the road that my body cannot produce naturally on it's own?!

HCG is available to me as well. Hopefully we can get some educated back and forth going on this thread to help determine it's usage. I suspect though the real experts lurk in the "ANABOLIC STEROIDS - QUESTIONS & ANSWERS" section.

Thanks for your reply.

**spicyer** · 07-27-2009, 06:23 PM

Originally Posted by fm2002

I'm 90 days in on:
1.6iu ED HGH
125mg once a week Test E
25mg EOD Proviron

Thanks

How is this cycle treating you? I just started a similar cycle after being off for over two years.

**bmit** · 08-04-2009, 04:28 PM

I wouldn't even do a cycle over 12 weeks without HCG , let alons HRT

**tommyguns2** · 08-06-2009, 10:38 AM

HCG is very valuable in HRT. One protocol is fairly popular, and involves test injection 1x/week with low dose HCG on days 5, 6. So if you were pinning test on Saturday, you would pin HCG on Thursday and Friday of the next week.

The goal is two-fold. (1) it prevents testicular atrophy. not a medical problem, but for some it's an aesthetic thing. (2) it evens out your test levels. As the test levels in your blood are fading at the end of the week, the HCG gives your levels a slight boost, so that you feel more even when pinning 1x/week. I suppose if you cut your dose into two equal amounts and pin 2x/week, you would have less need of it.

Another thing that I think you should consider is whether the HCG will help you recover what little natural production you had before HRT in the event you ever need to get off the HRT. The HCG looks like LH to the body and signals to the testes to keep producing "naturally." If you ever need to come off the test, at least your testes have been working over the years, and this may aid in getting whatever natural production you still have on line.

check out www.allthingsmale.com. In the papers section, it discusses an HCG protocol.

**Dukkit** · 08-06-2009, 10:44 AM

Originally Posted by tommyguns2

HCG is very valuable in HRT. One protocol is fairly popular, and involves test injection 1x/week with low dose HCG on days 5, 6. So if you were pinning test on Saturday, you would pin HCG on Thursday and Friday of the next week.

The goal is two-fold. (1) it prevents testicular atrophy. not a medical problem, but for some it's an aesthetic thing. (2) it evens out your test levels. As the test levels in your blood are fading at the end of the week, the HCG gives your levels a slight boost, so that you feel more even when pinning 1x/week. I suppose if you cut your dose into two equal amounts and pin 2x/week, you would have less need of it.

Another thing that I think you should consider is whether the HCG will help you recover what little natural production you had before HRT in the event you ever need to get off the HRT. The HCG looks like LH to the body and signals to the testes to keep producing "naturally." If you ever need to come off the test, at least your testes have been working over the years, and this may aid in getting whatever natural production you still have on line.

check out www.allthingsmale.com. In the papers section, it discusses an HCG protocol.

good post

also helps keep the nuts alive and keeping the sperm production active.

**tcw** · 08-06-2009, 10:45 AM

We are talking HRT...which means doing "low dosage" shots every week "Forever"....CORRECT?

If this is the case, why would you need HCG ?

HCG (from what i understand) is used for those who cycle Test, and then 2 weeks (before or after) start using HCG to boast their natural test levels.

What am i missing Here?

Why are you doing HCG and HRT?

**Dukkit** · 08-06-2009, 10:49 AM

Originally Posted by tcw

We are talking HRT...which means doing "low dosage" shots every week "Forever"....CORRECT?

If this is the case, why would you need HCG ?

HCG (from what i understand) is used for those who cycle Test, and then 2 weeks (before or after) start using HCG to boast their natural test levels.

What am i missing Here?

Why are you doing HCG and HRT?

have you not read any of the above posts?

HCG during TRT is normal

it keeps your balls "alive" so they dont shrink
its stimulates LH so your body isnt 100% shut down
and it helps keep sperm production up

you know... for those who want kids.

**tcw** · 08-06-2009, 11:09 AM

Ok...so you are saying that HGC should be used along with a low dosage of test FOREVER,....as long as you are on Test...

Correct?

**Dukkit** · 08-06-2009, 11:15 AM

Originally Posted by tcw

Ok...so you are saying that HGC should be used along with a low dosage of test FOREVER,....as long as you are on Test...

Correct?

yep

its really up to you. do you want small balls?
do you want kids?

if not. then you dont HAVE TO RUN IT

but its a plus if you do

**tcw** · 08-06-2009, 09:17 PM

Interesting...i've been talking to a few buds who do it...but they only use it for 2 weeks...and then only use it every 6mths.

Don't know what the long term affects of using it.

I will read up on it...

Thanks!

**Warrior1700** · 08-10-2009, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by tommyguns2

HCG is very valuable in HRT. One protocol is fairly popular, and involves test injection 1x/week with low dose HCG on days 5, 6. So if you were pinning test on Saturday, you would pin HCG on Thursday and Friday of the next week.

The goal is two-fold. (1) it prevents testicular atrophy. not a medical problem, but for some it's an aesthetic thing. (2) it evens out your test levels. As the test levels in your blood are fading at the end of the week, the HCG gives your levels a slight boost, so that you feel more even when pinning 1x/week. I suppose if you cut your dose into two equal amounts and pin 2x/week, you would have less need of it.

Another thing that I think you should consider is whether the HCG will help you recover what little natural production you had before HRT in the event you ever need to get off the HRT. The HCG looks like LH to the body and signals to the testes to keep producing "naturally." If you ever need to come off the test, at least your testes have been working over the years, and this may aid in getting whatever natural production you still have on line.

check out www.allthingsmale.com. In the papers section, it discusses an HCG protocol.

I have some Q's regarding this as well. I have been on HRT for 4 years now, between 200-400 mg Cyp 1x a week(mostly) along with 100-200 mg Deca weekly and B12. I completely stopped all HRT for 6 weeks(to see where I could be naturally) Blood work after 6 weeks resulted in Test and Free Test have crashed and are way below the low range. I was told that our system shold have leveled off after 4 weeks to normal levels, well if that the case, then my normal is far too low. I have since started HCG, 500 iu(.5 cc) every 3rd day for 5 weeks now. Have not had a blood test yet but will be soon to see if test has increased. I guess my Q is this. I plan on going back to HRT, 300 mg Cyp and 100 mg Deca weekly. I understand that once you are on long term HRT, you completely stop producing test naturally and your nuts atrophy(mine have come back some since HCG). How the the HCG DURING HRT keep our test producing if we are shut down from the long term HRT? ANd how often should we implement HCG while on long term HRT? Sorry so long.

**Dukkit** · 08-10-2009, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior1700

How the the HCG DURING HRT keep our test producing if we are shut down from the long term HRT?

ANd how often should we implement HCG while on long term HRT? Sorry so long.

well after long term TRT or HRT usage... yes.. most likely you will completely stop making any natural test.
HCG isnt mainly to keep you producing test while on HRT but to keep stimulating LH and HPTA. which will in turn help your testes keep producing some and also be primed better for other factors.
i dont know all the scientific hoo ha behind it. but im sure someone on here does

as far as dosing... i know a few guys on HRT who run different doses as directed by their doctors... just like everyone runs a different dose of Test during HRT also. and like you run deca and most ppl do not

the dosings ive seen are usually 500ius shot 2 times a week

or 800 ius shot once a week

or 100ius shot once a week

and so no

now this is just the doses from ppl i actually know and have been on HRT/HCG for sometime

**Warrior1700** · 08-10-2009, 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by dukkitdalaw

does

just like everyone runs a different dose of Test during HRT also. and like you run deca and most ppl do not

the dosings ive seen are usually 500ius shot 2 times a week

or 800 ius shot once a week

or 100ius shot once a week

HRT/HCG for sometime

I am running Deca for the BB benefit as well...

Do you mean to say 1000ius weekly, not 100(typo)?

And as far as dosing, when and how often would we implement the HCG ? KNow what Im asking? Every 6 months for 4 weeks, or every 3 months for 4 weeks? (just for examples so to speak)

**Dukkit** · 08-10-2009, 11:04 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior1700

I am running Deca for the BB benefit as well...

Do you mean to say 1000ius weekly, not 100(typo)?

And as far as dosing, when and how often would we implement the HCG? KNow what Im asking? Every 6 months for 4 weeks, or every 3 months for 4 weeks? (just for examples so to speak)

yeah thats 1000ius. tryin to type before boss sees!! lol

and really... its every week for life. along with trt shots

one guy i know does his hcg shot 3 days before test shot.

so once a week.

i mean you can stop and start again. depends on your money situation. lol

his insurance covers it so hes good to go

**Warrior1700** · 08-10-2009, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by dukkitdalaw

yeah thats 1000ius. tryin to type before boss sees!! lol

and really... its every week for life. along with trt shots

one guy i know does his hcg shot 3 days before test shot.

so once a week.

i mean you can stop and start again. depends on your money situation. lol

his insurance covers it so hes good to go

Ahhh...Ok.

Yea, my ins covers it as well.

So a lil added Q, is it better or more beneficial to inject IM as opposed to Sub Q? I have done it both ways but not sure if one is "better" than the other?

**Dukkit** · 08-10-2009, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior1700

Ahhh...Ok.

Yea, my ins covers it as well.

So a lil added Q, is it better or more beneficial to inject IM as opposed to Sub Q? I have done it both ways but not sure if one is "better" than the other?

as far as ive seen/read and done myself. Sub Q is better choice, and easier

**Warrior1700** · 08-10-2009, 11:26 AM

Originally Posted by dukkitdalaw

as far as ive seen/read and done myself. Sub Q is better choice, and easier

Yea, much easier...

**Warrior1700** · 08-13-2009, 06:28 PM

Any other input or opinions out here?

**flatscat** · 08-13-2009, 09:27 PM

I have posted this a couple of times - but here is my 2 cents worth.

I think HCGmay help more than hurt in some cases. But...

Remember the effects of all we are probably taking -

T - increase in total t and maybe free, increase in E2

HCG - increase in total, maybe free, increase in E2

AI - increase in free, decrease in E2

Deca , etc and so on

The problem is getting the right dose of all of these to get to your sweet spot. I think it can be done - but it will take many months and many trips to the lab.

One should know if he is primary or not, then the decision to take HCG along with your t would be easy. In fact, one should probably take hcg alone to start with in some cases. Then after the HCG is taken alone, a smaller amount of t can be introduced and adjusted upward accordingly.

The problem is most of us start out not knowing if we are primary or secondary. We begin our trt with 100 or 200 a week of t, HCG and an later an AI (maybe) and end up with way too high T, free t and probably E2 until we adjust our AI intake upward - and then end up with our E2 too low.

Add in BF above normal and everything I just said gets out of whack even worse and you can add in high BP.

All this means is you feel great for about 4 or 5 weeks and then you start to feel the side effects of what I mentioned above. Then you either go to your doc, get tested way out of range - or you start playing around with dosages to try and get back to where you were week 5.

It seems like most men that have been on trt for many years and are still happy with it do not include hcg. They are on t and a small amount of an ai - and maybe some hgh.

And contrary to some - you do not have to have high bf to see a dramatic increase in E2 with the addition of t, and hcg. In fact the addition of hcg - say twice/week seems to lead to greater conversion of t to e.

Hope that made sense even if it does not help you make a decision on whether to add hcg to your protocol.

I say take your t and ai if you have to. As long as you are feeling great and your levels all look good - why add another compound? Of course if you are trying to have a kid - or your boys look so small you cant stand it - then you can add the hcg or hmg.

Flats

**Warrior1700** · 08-14-2009, 05:22 PM

Originally Posted by flatscat

I have posted this a couple of times - but here is my 2 cents worth.

I think HCGmay help more than hurt in some cases. But...

Remember the effects of all we are probably taking -

T - increase in total t and maybe free, increase in E2

HCG - increase in total, maybe free, increase in E2

AI - increase in free, decrease in E2

Deca , etc and so on

The problem is getting the right dose of all of these to get to your sweet spot. I think it can be done - but it will take many months and many trips to the lab.

One should know if he is primary or not, then the decision to take HCG along with your t would be easy. In fact, one should probably take hcg alone to start with in some cases. Then after the HCG is taken alone, a smaller amount of t can be introduced and adjusted upward accordingly.

The problem is most of us start out not knowing if we are primary or secondary. We begin our trt with 100 or 200 a week of t, HCG and an later an AI (maybe) and end up with way too high T, free t and probably E2 until we adjust our AI intake upward - and then end up with our E2 too low.

Add in BF above normal and everything I just said gets out of whack even worse and you can add in high BP.

All this means is you feel great for about 4 or 5 weeks and then you start to feel the side effects of what I mentioned above. Then you either go to your doc, get tested way out of range - or you start playing around with dosages to try and get back to where you were week 5.

It seems like most men that have been on trt for many years and are still happy with it do not include hcg. They are on t and a small amount of an ai - and maybe some hgh.

And contrary to some - you do not have to have high bf to see a dramatic increase in E2 with the addition of t, and hcg. In fact the addition of hcg - say twice/week seems to lead to greater conversion of t to e.

Hope that made sense even if it does not help you make a decision on whether to add hcg to your protocol.

I say take your t and ai if you have to. As long as you are feeling great and your levels all look good - why add another compound? Of course if you are trying to have a kid - or your boys look so small you cant stand it - then you can add the hcg or hmg.

Flats

Thanks Flats, makes sense mostly, but yea , not sure if it helps in my decision to incorporate HCG into my regimine once I start the Cyp and Deca again. I Dont think @ 46yoa( I know it's still young) and where I am at in my personal life, kids are gonna happen and the Endo had just mentioned when I saw him that my boys are atrophied so I thot I would try to get em back and was reading that HRT people could incorporate HCG as a regular supplement.

What does primary and secondary actually mean?

**flatscat** · 08-15-2009, 06:58 AM

Primary = defect lies within the gonads

Secondary = defect lies outside the gonads

**british bulldog 1** · 08-15-2009, 07:14 AM

hcg is not necessary as long as you do nolva

**Warrior1700** · 08-15-2009, 09:03 AM

Originally Posted by flatscat

Primary = defect lies within the gonads

Secondary = defect lies outside the gonads

Not trying to get off subject here with the HCG thing.

Are you talking defect in referance as to why an indivudual has low test?

**flatscat** · 08-15-2009, 09:36 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior1700

Not trying to get off subject here with the HCG thing.

Are you talking defect in referance as to why an indivudual has low test?

Yep - just do a search on primary and secondary hypogonadism. Most of us start trt without being diagnosed as one or the other - crappy docs. They just see a low t level and treat the same way. Not saying the treatment wouldnt be the same anyway - but there are sometimes other options to try before the t starts getting injected. I am a big proponent of injectable t - don't get me wrong. But sometimes HCG alone works well, sometimes an AI alone will lower E2 and raise t numbers sufficiently for some with high e2. Everyone is different - so there is no exact protocol to follow, just what works well for you is the best, and that takes time to get right. We would all be lucky to have a doc that understood this and really took the time to individualize our treatments.

**Warrior1700** · 08-15-2009, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by flatscat

Yep - just do a search on primary and secondary hypogonadism. Most of us start trt without being diagnosed as one or the other - crappy docs. They just see a low t level and treat the same way. Not saying the treatment wouldnt be the same anyway - but there are sometimes other options to try before the t starts getting injected. I am a big proponent of injectable t - don't get me wrong. But sometimes HCG alone works well, sometimes an AI alone will lower E2 and raise t numbers sufficiently for some with high e2. Everyone is different - so there is no exact protocol to follow, just what works well for you is the best, and that takes time to get right. We would all be lucky to have a doc that understood this and really took the time to individualize our treatments.

Ohhh? I was under the impression that simple aging is a fator in reduced test, not a "defect"

I am just going to a "vitality" doc and he gives what I ask and checks blood every now and again and still gives me what I ask "crappy doc"...lol. I atually went to an Endo and found my Test and free test to be extremely low, thta was after 6 weeks off of everything. He has not started no discussed a protocol for me so I am headed back to the "vitality" doc I think.

**flatscat** · 08-15-2009, 11:19 AM

Originally Posted by Warrior1700

Ohhh? I was under the impression that simple aging is a fator in reduced test, not a "defect"

I am just going to a "vitality" doc and he gives what I ask and checks blood every now and again and still gives me what I ask "crappy doc"...lol. I atually went to an Endo and found my Test and free test to be extremely low, thta was after 6 weeks off of everything. He has not started no discussed a protocol for me so I am headed back to the "vitality" doc I think.

Chill. I was speaking in terms of trt only. If you are at the bottom of the range with regards to t - then there is something not working right. Whether it is due to a natural occurence or because of previous usage of aas. Either way the reduction of t in the body is caused by something - either your gonads are lacking or your brain is - bottom line. I don't care if you are 18 or 80. I guess there are other things that cause t to e conversion that could be thrown in here - and you can add in sbgh and dht that could take up a lot of free t - and, and - so I am speaking generally but with some focus on a problem that is not uncommon with regards to the doc/pat relationship in refernce to trt/hrt.

I am glad you can get what you want. 200-400/week + deca and hgh and hcg from a doc - (even if he is crappy) is a high amount and a lot of guys wish they had that (including me sometimes). I am just saying that while you may not agree with my opinion now - you probably will one day when you are just wanting to get to normal levels and can't do it naturally. Then it doesn't just matter that you can get what you want - you will just want what you need.

Bro, I wish you the best and it is all good.

**Warrior1700** · 08-15-2009, 12:04 PM

Originally Posted by flatscat

I am glad you can get what you want. 200-400/week + deca and hgh and hcg from a doc - (even if he is crappy) is a high amount and a lot of guys wish they had that (including me sometimes). I am just saying that while you may not agree with my opinion now - you probably will one day when you are just wanting to get to normal levels and can't do it naturally. Then it doesn't just matter that you can get what you want - you will just want what you need.

Bro, I wish you the best and it is all good.

Hey thanks man. Not saying I agree or disagree, just looking for insight as we all are. I guess tho, if my levels are "naturally" low due to age(wether it be gonads or brain, which I think I understand now to be either primary or secondary?) If that's the case, do I really want my "normal" levels, as I would probably be on HRT for life? I guess if the bottom line is that 200-400 mg weekly is too much for maintainance HRT, then I could do the 100-200 mg Cyp + 100 mg Deca weekly for 12 weeks and then do a higher cycle like 300 Cyp + 100 Deca weekly for like 12 weeks and then back down to Maint dosage? (There is another thread regarding this) A few questions regarding HRT and cycles

**flatscat** · 08-15-2009, 12:58 PM

Originally Posted by Warrior1700

Hey thanks man. Not saying I agree or disagree, just looking for insight as we all are. I guess tho, if my levels are "naturally" low due to age(wether it be gonads or brain, which I think I understand now to be either primary or secondary?) If that's the case, do I really want my "normal" levels, as I would probably be on HRT for life? I guess if the bottom line is that 200-400 mg weekly is too much for maintainance HRT, then I could do the 100-200 mg Cyp + 100 mg Deca weekly for 12 weeks and then do a higher cycle like 300 Cyp + 100 Deca weekly for like 12 weeks and then back down to Maint dosage? (There is another thread regarding this) A few questions regarding HRT and cycles

No prob. As you know hrt is usually for life. And sure you can cruise and blast. If you are on the right dose of t then I would say a "normal" range could be between 400-1000. Everyone is different though. When I was on 200/week + HCG + AI, my levels were way over 1000. I actually feel better under 1000 and have fewer sides. I would say that you could still make moderate gains at that level too. But nothing wrong with blasting if that is your thing. Later

**fm2002** · 08-19-2009, 09:18 AM

As the starter of this thread just wanted to say thanks. Great info guys !

This is off topic, but got my lab results back and my IGF-1, total & free test and most everything is great EXCEPT Estrogen which is way high 128. Any of you guys know where I can get some info on how to lower it ?

**fm2002** · 08-21-2009, 11:36 PM

Originally Posted by spicyer

How is this cycle treating you? I just started a similar cycle after being off for over two years.

It's treating me well except no fat loss and I still have high Estrogen levels. Will probably kick the hgh up to 2 iu's soon.

**Warrior1700** · 08-28-2009, 02:39 PM

Update on my blood work...

So basically here is my last few months history. On 03/04/09 my Total Test was 533 ref range 245-1836 NG/DL. Free Test was 14.3 ref rance 7.2-23.0 PG/ML.

On 05/11/09 Total Test was 553 ref range 225-972 NG/DL but Free Test was 54.3 ref range 12.0-25.0 PG/ML. 06/06/09 I had my last Test /Deca shot 300mg/100mg respectively.

On 07/20/09 my Total Test was 33.9 and Free Test 3.3

On 07/2409 I started HCG , 500 I/Us 2x a week for 4 weeks.

On 08/18/09 my Total Test was 76 and free Test was 1.5

A couple of Questions. Why the different Ref Ranges from different offices?

Is the HCG actually doing anything?

Has my Natural Test Production stopped completely now since being on HRT for 4 years receiving between 200-400mg Cyp weekly and 100-200 Deca weekley.

I have started my HRT back @ 300mg Cyp and 100 mg Deca as well as B12 weekly.

And now my Doc wants to implant 6-8 50-75mg Test Cyp pellets to get my Test back up a bit quicker. Any thoughts on the pellets?

**Warrior1700** · 09-01-2009, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by tommyguns2

HCG is very valuable in HRT. One protocol is fairly popular, and involves test injection 1x/week with low dose HCG on days 5, 6. So if you were pinning test on Saturday, you would pin HCG on Thursday and Friday of the next week.

The goal is two-fold. (1) it prevents testicular atrophy. not a medical problem, but for some it's an aesthetic thing. (2) it evens out your test levels. As the test levels in your blood are fading at the end of the week, the HCG gives your levels a slight boost, so that you feel more even when pinning 1x/week. I suppose if you cut your dose into two equal amounts and pin 2x/week, you would have less need of it.

Another thing that I think you should consider is whether the HCG will help you recover what little natural production you had before HRT in the event you ever need to get off the HRT. The HCG looks like LH to the body and signals to the testes to keep producing "naturally." If you ever need to come off the test, at least your testes have been working over the years, and this may aid in getting whatever natural production you still have on line.

check out www.allthingsmale.com. In the papers section, it discusses an HCG protocol.

I read the article you listed here, good stuff actually. He recommends 250IUs HCG 2 days before and then the day before Test inj...Your suggestion of days 5,6 following is the same thing yes? You just worded it differently. Days 5,6 after as oppsed to 2 days and 1 days before...