47 y/o Male Multi-sport athlete new to TRT/HRT

**alpinist** · 06-30-2012, 04:43 PM

I started Arimidex yesterday. .25 mg 2x week. I'll redo bw in probably 2 weeks. Next week I'll drop the T cyp to 100 as well. I think I'd like to get down to about 75 T a week and run for at least 4 weeks. It would be great to hit that lower dosage, get the T benefit without being on the AI.

Nips did not get crazy sensitive. Just swollen and sensitive enough that I noticed it.

Hey Dan, is dr. Gordon in Encino? If so, I may check him out. Also, not to disagree with you but why do you think he's better than Crisler?

Thank again

**DanMan250** · 06-30-2012, 07:46 PM

Yeah he's the one. I say he is better than Crisler because 1. He is more intelligent and 2. because I know of 2 guys who were not helped by Crisler but then saw Dr Gordon and now they are feeling awesome.
Dr Crisler himself rates Dr Gordon highly.

**kelkel** · 07-01-2012, 01:26 PM

Options are a good thing.

Op another item to consider is to switch to injections every 3.5 days. Example I do 60mg every 3.5 days which helps control E. Logic is less injected = less spike and hopefully less AI. The rest of my protocol is HCG 250 IU M-W-F. No AI at that dose. If I upped it then I would need the AI.

**alpinist** · 07-05-2012, 05:01 PM

I lowered my weekly dose to 100 mg starting today (from 140 last week and from 200 the prior 4 weeks). I also just took my 3rd dose of .25mg Arimidex too. Nip sensitivity is better but still not normal.

I've been trolling to figure out who to do a phone consult with. At the moment it's gonna be either Gordon or Crisler unless there are other opinions.

My shriveling sack leads me to want to start the HcG asap. However, with the drastic lowering of the T cyp dosage and adding the AI, I'm not sure about introducing any more variables yet...

Thanks

**alpinist** · 07-26-2012, 09:14 AM

Updating my log. Still on 100 mg T a week. After a couple weeks of .25 mg Arimidex every 2.5 days the nipple sensitivity was better but they were still slightly swollen and the original weight gain still there. For last 2 weeks started moving the interval closer together. Started taking every 48 hours. I seemed to drop a couple pounds of water weight so yesterday I took .5 mg of Arimidex 28 hrs. after my previous .25 dose. I'm trying to get rid of the last bit of nip swelling and water weight.

I was due to go in for BW this week but I put it off due to all the AI adjusting. Also, because 2 days ago I started HcG 250iu 2x week due to nut shrinkage and oncoming soreness.

I've really no clue what's happening to my E2 other than how I feel (pretty good) and what the scale says (going down slowly). I really don't want to overshoot (bring it too low) and become a sobbing bitch...

Thanks to all

**DanMan250** · 07-26-2012, 03:51 PM

I think u should lower ur test dose down to 40mg twice a week. This will really reduce ur E2 and u will lose more weight which will be good for ur sport. Once ur nip sensitivity goes i would come off the AI. I'm doing 40mg test cypionate twice a week along with 100iu HCG ED and my E2 levels are low whilst my test is at the top of the range. I don't use any AI at all.

**alpinist** · 07-26-2012, 06:33 PM

Wow, DanMan. Thanks for posting up what's working for you. I'm going to think about doing something similar in a month or so. For now, I need to first get my BW and numbers 'stable'.

**alpinist** · 09-02-2012, 03:05 PM

Hey all! Long time no visit but time to update my log (for my records and to add to this cool collective body of knowledge).

Anyhow, BW from Aug 9th below. June 1 for 4 weeks 200mg T Cyp weekly. June 28 dropped down to 100mg weekly. June 29 started .25mg Arimidex every 3.5 days. I decreased the interval of the AI down to about every 48 hrs. due to nip puffiness and persistent weight gain. BW (attached) shows I drove the Estradiol level below 20. Since Aug 9th I'm now splitting the 100mg T cyp into 2 separate doses per week. I'm doing 250iu HcG Sat night. 50mg T cyp & .25mg Arimidex Sun night. 250iu HcG Wed morning. 50mg T cyp & .25mg Arimidex Thurs morning.

Besides the E level being too low other things I find interesting with the BW from Aug 9.

My total T only dropped from 816 to 662 and the Free T only from 19.7 to 17.2 due to cutting the weekly dose from 200mg to 100mg for the previous 5 weeks. This info and Danman's suggestion is what prompted me to split the weekly T dose in half. I'm super curious to see if my next BW show an increase in T levels. I'd also like to get off the AI altogether. My plan is to try and taper down to only .25mg per week for a couple weeks and then none. Pull the BW 2 weeks after no AI. Watch for symptoms along the way.

My overall Cholesterol is under 200 for the first time in my life. Triglycerides down from 125 to 106 too.

My nuts have begun to swing a bit and are no longer sore but are still only about 75% of their former glorious size. ;-) Nip puffiness is gone. Weight is bouncing much more than it used to(163 to 167 lbs) so not sure if I'm still retaining water.

I've been nursing a couple injuries (not unusual) but my training is going well and I feel really good. My bf is probably down 2% and I've def put on more muscle.

Thanks again to this place and all you regulars that make this place run.

Peace

47 y/o Male Multi-sport athlete new to TRT/HRT-bw.jpg

**DanMan250** · 09-03-2012, 04:21 AM

Thanks for the update buddy. Glad you're feeling better. Definitely time to taper off the arimidex now. You will probably notice bone and joint pain with your E2 being so low.

**alpinist** · 10-10-2012, 07:43 AM

Log update. New BW attached below.

Still doing 100mg T per week split into two doses. Dropped the AI altogether Aug 30th. HcG 500iu per week split into two doses.

All I can say is splitting the weekly dose in half is absolutely the call. IMO, based on what others have been saying and my results, this should absolutely be the protocol. Drs. administering weekly or bi-monthly due to scheduling, convenience, or not wanting to pin at home is, again IMO, super old school.

My Free T went from 3.2 to 19.7 on 200mg per week (single dose). E2 went to 43.8. Dropped to 100mg per week (single dose) and .25mg Arimidex 2x week. Free T dropped to 17.2 and E2 went below 20. Then I split the 100mg weekly in half and dropped the AI altogether. Free T went to 23.8 and E2 sitting at 29.8.

Cholesterol numbers have continued to improve throughout all this.

My nuts have not fully returned to their former size. Thinking of upping the HcG a bit but just not sure...

I feel amazing. My recovery after workouts is pretty much 'through the roof'. I can hit it super hard and recover almost like I never have in my life. I'm definitely enjoying all the physical performance levels I'm hitting. I've always enjoyed my workouts and physical hobbies but now I'm enjoying them even more. Bigger, faster, stronger, higher, longer, etc. Also, in peak training mode I'm not getting sick like I always used to. Even in my 20s I always had to throttle back the training every couple months due to always being on the verge of being sick. I've only had one tiny sore throat in the last few months (rare) but I only had to pull back on the training for a day or two.

The only real downside I'm experiencing is my MPB hairloss has also super accelerated. It ain't all falling out but I've lost as much hair in the last few months as I have in the last 5 years. Anyone have any tips or tricks to help slow it?

Without this place and all you regular posters I'd still be banging 200mg T a week, tons of AI, and chasing my numbers around.

Much thanks to you all.

**TraceMYD** · 10-10-2012, 07:57 AM

Are you taking proscar for MPB prevention?

There is a pretty good YouTube station about shampoos and topicals you can use as a routine for people who do testosterone .

Search on YouTube: hairlossfromsteroids

Question, did you ever try splitting up the 200mg into 2 doses before you went down to 100mg?

**alpinist** · 10-10-2012, 09:26 AM

Nope on the both the Proscar and splitting the 200mg per week dose in half before going to 100mg. I didn't try the 200mg in half based upon the advice I was getting here. Obviously they were right as 100mg per week was enough. Even way better was the 50mg 2x week!

**HEVEW8** · 10-10-2012, 10:44 AM

This is great to hear,..I recently was brought down from 175mg once a week to 100mg twice a week,...My nut's started aching...hehe I do my next injection tonight,..Sun morning Wed's night protocol...... I do feel a bit deprived, my erections are not as hard and I have been yawning threw-out the day's,... but I know I'm adjusting to the new dose...

Keep us in the loop!

Ruben

**alpinist** · 10-18-2012, 07:58 AM

I'm going to drop my total weekly dose to 90mg (45 mg 2X) due to some very minimal sides. My nips are a little puffy (not sore at all tho) and I'm still hanging on to a couple pounds of water (bouncing between 163 & 164 lbs), and tho my wood is good it's not great. Also, the accelerated MPB ain't fun either. Seeing as my Free T most recently was 23.8 (7.2-23) and E2 was 29.8 I figure I can try to super fine-tune the dose down some. I want to adjust the T dose down slowly as other than the minimal sides I've been feeling great!

**kelkel** · 10-18-2012, 08:14 AM

Alpinist I'm thrilled to hear the good news! Great work! Great numbers! Less is more on TRT. Dropping your dose as you're considering may help. Regarding holding water, try drinking more! Be sure to test for hemoglobin and hematocrit on all of your testing and consider beginning giving blood on a regular basis which will help here.

Also on your next BW test for DHT as test turns to DHT everywhere in the body except muscle via the 5AR enzyme. 5AR is heavy in the scalp area and that in conjunction with possibly being prone to MPB can be an issue for you. Look at your family history regarding MPB and you'll know. Also test for vit D! I didn't see it on your sheet. If you're not taking it do so immediately as it will improve your free T levels. Also good to always check your shbg to see how your binding.

Great work!

kel

**alpinist** · 10-18-2012, 08:30 AM

I was actually surprised my doc didn't order the Vit D and SHBG as we normally check it. Next time for sure. (probably wait 6 weeks) I'm taking 5,000iu Vit D already. My MPB is sorta standard issue relative to my dad's side. Kel, if I test for DHT at it's elevated is there any adjustment other than reducing the T doses? I'm already making peace with given the choice between MPB with the fitness I have and hair with weakness, I'm going to take the fitness all day. It's just way too much fun to run, jump, and play like this again!

**kelkel** · 10-18-2012, 08:37 AM

Thats the trouble with DHT. Most people never have a baseline and the range is relative. There really is no good or bad level. It's how you feel. DHT is a needed, valuable androgen and what makes us men. Personally I've never recommended any treatments for it other than getting off of gels if it spikes to high. Some of the other guys will chime in as I've never had that issue personally. Now if you can tell me how to stop it from turning gray.....

**alpinist** · 01-18-2013, 07:44 PM

Log update. BW attached.

Some numbers came back completely unexpected.

I've been on 45mg T 2x week. No AI. 250iu HcG 2x week (24hrs prior to T). Free T 18. and E2 41.7. Previously I was doing 50mg T 2x week and also no AI. On that protocol Free T was 23.8 and E2 was 29.8.

I dropped to 45mg as I hoped to drop the E2 a bit and still hold on the Free T. Instead the E2 went up! Also, the T dropped much further than expected. How the hell does the E2 go up on a lower T dose? I'm stumped!

Cholesterol numbers going way up too. WTF?

Nip are not puffy or sore. I am a bit heavy for me (168lbs) but feel strong. My workout recovery has been pretty good but not great. Same with wood. Nuts still smaller than I would like. Big bonus is I have not been sick with what most of the country has had (normally I would have caught it by now).

To get my E2 down I just took a single dose of .5mg Arimidex . I'm going go back to 50mg 2x week with .25mg 2x week for awhile and retest in 4 weeks. It just doesn't make sense to go back this direction as I was on 50mg 2x a week with no AI and my E2 was lower than on 45mg. WTF?

I thought I was getting the dosages nailed down but now I'm way back in left field. Is it kinda normal to have some random numbers for the first year or so? Any other thoughts or ideas?

Much thanks to the crew of regulars!

**kelkel** · 01-18-2013, 11:14 PM

Will chime in later today alpinist. Glad you updated...

**alpinist** · 01-19-2013, 07:27 PM

Another note. I found out about a week ago my HcG had expired a month ago. Could that have anything to do with my wacky numbers? Also, if I'm going to up my 2x a week HcG dose from 250iu, what should I try? 300iu 2x a week?

Thanks!

**Rusty11** · 01-19-2013, 07:46 PM

I like that spreadsheet. Makes things really easy to track. I should do that. Regarding the Estradiol test, was that the sensitive test? My doc doesn't feel e2 is important, but I talked him into testing me twice. First one came back at 48. Three months later, it came back at 24. This was the regular estradiol test. Nothing in my protocol changed. It didn't make any sense. So, I took matters into my own hands and went to labcorp to have the sensitive e2 test. It came back at 35. According to the experts here, that's the only e2 test that matters. The other one has ranges for women. Anyway, just throwing that out there. I'm sure the experts will chime in and help you out. Good luck.

Edit: How do you know your hcg expired. Did you have it sitting for a long time, or...?

**alpinist** · 01-19-2013, 07:57 PM

Yup, E2 tests are all sensitive. HcG expired as it said so on the label (comes constituted already). Thanks for the post

**kelkel** · 01-22-2013, 09:11 AM

I would not agonize over the number variations just yet. There are always going to be fluctuations based on your metabolism, current environment and many other factors that can influence BW on a daily basis. Our systems are not perfect!

When it comes to HCG exactly how old was it? 120 days? If so, it's definitely weaker but exactly how much degradation is unknown. If you looking to add more you may consider 250 IU's M-W-F for simplicity purposes. That's what myself and many others here do as well. Remember, determine what your plan is and stick with it. One change at a time is always best if possible.

Consider adding DHEA and Pregnenolone (micronized) to your protocol. Possibly 25mg and 50mg respectively. GD wrote a sticky on them so take a look. They are upstream of T and will help. DHEA will help with your cholesterol as well.

kel

**alpinist** · 01-24-2013, 10:30 AM

Much thanks Kel! The HcG expired in about a month previously. I don't recall the mfg or constituted date. It seems the pharmacy receives it like that.

Also, I've got DHEA and Pregnenolone on way and will start today or tomorrow. I feel really good but my recovery is not what it was a few months ago. I think I want to try to get my T back to 900 from the 600 it's at now and the E2 down back to 30 or so from 40. For me the question is, what's the best way to do that? Keep the T at 45mg 2x a week and just introduce Arimidex .25mg 2x a week to inhibit the conversion? Or bump the T up to 50mg 2x a week with along with the AI? Or stay status quo (45mg 2x week and no AI) and hope the supplements work?

I really appreciate the assist!

**louie2400** · 01-25-2013, 08:09 AM

Enjoyed reading the thread! I'm just in the beginning of my TRT process and there are definitely a LOT of variables that come into play. Hoping things start to level out for you. I'll be following.

**fireeater49** · 01-26-2013, 12:39 PM

Just wanted to pipe in and say this is some good info! I appreciate to all those who contributed. Quick question, what can RAISE e2 (Fyi my was 12 after 7 shots of 200mg x 10 days) Now at 150mg. same time period. Apologies if I am "hijacking" (new to this world of internet forum)

**alpinist** · 01-27-2013, 06:19 PM

It's best you start your own thread to ask questions. Also, always post up your last few BW reports.

I'm no expert but I don't think T cyp alone can crash your E2. It causes the exact opposite. I'd guess you use too much of an AI.

**kelkel** · 01-27-2013, 07:41 PM

Originally Posted by alpinist

Much thanks Kel! The HcG expired in about a month previously. I don't recall the mfg or constituted date. It seems the pharmacy receives it like that.

Also, I've got DHEA and Pregnenolone on way and will start today or tomorrow. I feel really good but my recovery is not what it was a few months ago. I think I want to try to get my T back to 900 from the 600 it's at now and the E2 down back to 30 or so from 40. For me the question is, what's the best way to do that? Keep the T at 45mg 2x a week and just introduce Arimidex .25mg 2x a week to inhibit the conversion? Or bump the T up to 50mg 2x a week with along with the AI? Or stay status quo (45mg 2x week and no AI) and hope the supplements work?

I really appreciate the assist!

Well, if you're referring to the dhea and preg to help your E2 they won't. DHEA may actually slightly elevate E2. Be sure to take both supps in the morning as they can have a stimulant effect. Regarding your E2, how do you feel at your current level? Libido good? When it comes to what to do, bumping T will raise your test level obviously but E follows T and will go up as well. If you're not in a rush you can try some natural supps to lower your E such as zinc and calcium d-glucarate. But obviously that's a slow process but they are good to add anyway.

Lowering your E with the AI obviously works but I don't really think you need .25 x two per week, IMHO. A thought would be your .25mg 24hrs after injection if you inject one time per week (can't recall your protocol) and if you inject twice, try and cut that little bugger even smaller with a pill cutter (walmart or drug store, easy to find) to 12.5 and go twice per week in the same manner. Lowering your E will raise your total T, how much remains to be seen. Remember Vit D3 will also help raise free T.

So, a couple paths you can take here. Just remember try to make one simple change at a time and monitor results when appropriate with your BW.

**alpinist** · 01-28-2013, 08:25 AM

My libido has been good but the quality of wood not great.

I did a single injection this week of 50mg T and .25mg Arimidex . I was thinking I was going to stay on that dosage for a month and retest but, upon your advice to not change too much at once, I dropped back down to 45mg with the AI. I'm going to continue with the 45mg 2x a week and get some Arimidex compounded at 12.5mg per dose. I'll recheck BW in a month. I guess it makes sense to try and prevent the conversion to E2 in the hopes of getting the T numbers back up rather than jamming more T injections and then adding more AI. It's def hard to be patient or really know the right course of action.

I need to do some more reading about how Arimidex works cuz' I'm thinking the E2 spiked and T dropped after I came off the AI several months ago. What's odd is that 6 weeks after I dropped the AI the BW came back great. Then 3 months later on an even lower dose of T the E2 was up a bunch...

Thanks

**fireeater49** · 01-29-2013, 09:12 AM

Originally Posted by alpinist

It's best you start your own thread to ask questions. Also, always post up your last few BW reports.

I'm no expert but I don't think T cyp alone can crash your E2. It causes the exact opposite. I'd guess you use too much of an AI.

Thanks, will do. FYI I am NO AI just 150 mg shot every ten days (down from 200mg) No HCG

**kelkel** · 01-29-2013, 10:26 AM

alpinist are you using or considering low dose cialis for libido as well. 5mg twice per day will do wonders with you. Another item that will hep with the "quality" of wood is Doxazosin at a low dose. It's an alpha blocker/smooth muscle relaxer, which is what your "wood" consists of. It will allow a much harder erection. Search it up.

**alpinist** · 02-06-2013, 08:28 AM

I haven't considered cialis at all. I'm gonna put that one off as long as possible. With the Test, Hcg , Arimidex , DHEA, Preg, Vit D, and all the other supplements I'd really like to not add something else. Especially with my numbers being out of whack. I do appreciate the advice tho. This thread is like gold for me. Thanks to all that have contributed.

**steroid.com 1** · 02-06-2013, 09:36 AM

What was the time frame between your last two labs?

Wondering if your serum levels hadn't stabilized yet on your next to last labs.

And remember, there is always fluctuation in labs as so many variables play on them so don't have too much expectation that they will always look the same.

Your protocol of 45mg of Test 2x a week and your Arimidex compounded at 12.5mg per dose should be taken 24 hours after each of your testosterone injections. I'd still keep HCG in our protocol at 250 iu the day before each Test injection.

This is a very conservative protocol and should do you well.

**alpinist** · 02-06-2013, 04:03 PM

Most recent labs were Jan 17. Prior to that they were Oct 4. Aug 9th before that.

My doc suggested I take the AI 24 hrs post T injection as well. However, to due to scheduling and convenience I've been taking it at the same time. Any clue if I'm screwing myself by doing that?

Yup, HcG is staying in the protocol. Have added DHEA and Preg to my normal supplements and Vit D. I'm thinking especially since I'm mostly vegetarian I should probably have a Zinc sup too...

I greatly appreciate the advice!

**steroid.com 1** · 02-06-2013, 04:21 PM

Originally Posted by alpinist

Most recent labs were Jan 17. Prior to that they were Oct 4. Aug 9th before that.

My doc suggested I take the AI 24 hrs post T injection as well. However, to due to scheduling and convenience I've been taking it at the same time. Any clue if I'm screwing myself by doing that?
No, not really. Just that ideally you'd like the AI to reach half life at the same time Testosterone peaks so you get the best of both and more bioavailable Testosterone for your body to use but if you take the same day as your injection you'll be fine.

Yup, HcG is staying in the protocol. Have added DHEA and Preg to my normal supplements and Vit D. I'm thinking especially since I'm mostly vegetarian I should probably have a Zinc sup too...
Good!

I greatly appreciate the advice!

Di Nada

**alpinist** · 02-06-2013, 10:37 PM

Based on my not great recovery and lack of quality wood I'm going to up my T dose from 45mg 2x week to 50mg. Going to stay on 12.5mg Arimidex 2x week and HcG 250iu 2x week. Retest in a month.

Also, below are all my BW numbers including the protocol I was doing at the time. This should make it easy to get a snapshot of what I've done.

47 y/o Male Multi-sport athlete new to TRT/HRT-new-bw.jpg

**alpinist** · 02-23-2013, 08:51 AM

New BW attached.

My recovery has been reasonable but quality of wood has been poor (wow, that shit ain't fun) so didn't wait very long to for more BW. I knew it wouldn't be close to 'normalizing' but I really wanted to see if my E2 was too high or too low. Last time I was on the Arimidex it dropped quickly so I wasn't sure.

E2 went up to 48.7 so I took an extra 25mg of Arimidex 24 hrs. after the T and 12.5mg Arimidex. I'd like to get it down as fast as possible but I'm not sure the best way to do it. Should I just bump 50mg for my next couple doses? Eventually when I 'think' it might be in range again I'll stay on 25mg 2x week for 4 week and retest.

Interesting that in 4 weeks going from 45mg T 2x week and no AI to 50mg T and 12.5mg AI 2x week T went from 596 to 783 and 18 to 22.2. Cholesterol dropped from 236 to 195 . E2 41.7 to 48.7.

A week ago I added Pregnenolone 50mg ed, DHEA 50mg ed, and Zinc w/ Coppper 50mg/2mg.

Tho I've been on 5,000iu ed of Vit D my doc says 34.1 it still a bit low. He suggests above 50 is best so I should up dose. 10,000iu per day?

Thanks to all

**kelkel** · 02-23-2013, 09:34 AM

Hi Alpinist!

I think all looks great except your E2. I'd leave your Test alone and just adjust your AI. Bring it down and I'd bet your wood will be just fine. Get that thought out of your head as well. I assume the preg/dhea is micronized correct? Remember dhea can elevate E2 slightly in some people. It will also help your lipids. Yes on upping your dose of D3. Remember to ingest it with a meal as it's fat soluble.

Regarding your lipids look into Slo-Niacin (google it) as well. I just started it and am interested in seeing my results on my next BW. Dhea alone made a big improvement for me and I hope this does as well. Read this link:

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2007/mar2007_atd_01.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12873710

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11757504

Kel

**DanMan250** · 02-23-2013, 08:43 PM

Alpinist, how is your recovery from exercise now compared to before you began TRT? Do you have less pain in your joints and muscles now or more?

**alpinist** · 02-24-2013, 10:49 PM

Thanks, kel. Yup, I'm gonna jam some extra AI till I wake up one morning with an obvious Redwood...

Hey Dan. Currently my recovery is 'only' up about 50% since starting TRT due to T being a bit low and E2 too high. However, a few months ago when T was about 900 and E2 about 30 my recovery was easily 100% or 2x what it was over the last 20 years or so. No chance I'm going back...