aromasin vs adex

[--->>405<<---]

as yall know im trying to dial in E2. i havent started back on anything yet and have heard aromasin would be better long term as far as effect on lipids. from what ive seen online i read the same thing.

curious to what yall think? anyone run aromasin instead of adex?

was thinking since ive been off a couple weeks and by the time i start back it will have been 4 weeks if aromasin would be better now would be a good time to transition. ??

[kelkel]

Nothing wrong with aromasin . It's a suicide inhibitor and is stronger than adex which is what you have to watch out for. It's over 80% effective if I recall correctly. It will take you about a week or so to get your serum levels up though as opposed to adex which is pretty much that day. Swifto loves it and I believe did a thread on it. Adex just seems easier to manage, IMO.

Kel

ps: please put your in-shape avi back up. You're killing us with that one!

[--->>405<<---]

Nothing wrong with aromasin . It's a suicide inhibitor and is stronger than adex which is what you have to watch out for. It's over 80% effective if I recall correctly. It will take you about a week or so to get your serum levels up though as opposed to adex which is pretty much that day. Swifto loves it and I believe did a thread on it. Adex just seems easier to manage, IMO.

Kel

ps: please put your in-shape avi back up. You're killing us with that one!

LMAO!! ok buddy ill do it for u

[Vettester]

Like Kelkel stated, it's a more aggressive compound in comparison to Arimidex . I've read Arimidex is at/around 78% to 80% effective, whereas aromasin is closer to 85%. Guess it's personal preference, but like stated, you just need to use caution with it.

[--->>405<<---]

gotcha. from what ive heard and read over the long term adex can be bad for blood lipids? so this would not be good long term rite? would not the effectiveness only mean u need a smaller dose? or am i missing another element?

[Phased]

You can run aromasin almost indef with no effect on lipids, however adex is very harsh on them, raising LDL and lowering HDL. Aromasin is a much better option for HRT. Adex can also give bad headaches, never had one with aromasin here.

[Vettester]

405, I could be wrong, but as I see it the negative issues with the lipids are because estrogen is associated with HDL synthesis, and the metabolism of bad cholesterol, LDL. So, regardless, if you are inhibiting your estrogen values, then that will play a role a negative impact on your lipid profiles, regardless of which compound you are taking. In fact, with Aromasin being a little more potent with inhibiting E2, I would speculate that it could just as easily play a bigger role with your lipid panels. Again, I would speculate as I don't have any scientific studies on lipid comparison of each compound, just a theory.

Swifto or possibly Bonaparte might have some deeper insight on the chemistry structure of the two compounds, and maybe there's some correlation one has over with how it effects cholesterol. But as a general rule of thumb, inhibition of estrogen is not going to promote positive lipid profile.

[Phased]

405, I could be wrong, but as I see it the negative issues with the lipids are because estrogen is associated with HDL synthesis, and the metabolism of bad cholesterol, LDL. So, regardless, if you are inhibiting your estrogen values, then that will play a role a negative impact on your lipid profiles, regardless of which compound you are taking. In fact, with Aromasin being a little more potent with inhibiting E2, I would speculate that it could just as easily play a bigger role with your lipid panels. Again, I would speculate as I don't have any scientific studies on lipid comparison of each compound, just a theory.

Swifto or possibly Bonaparte might have some deeper insight on the chemistry structure of the two compounds, and maybe there's some correlation one has over with how it effects cholesterol. But as a general rule of thumb, inhibition of estrogen is not going to promote positive lipid profile.

I have run aromasin for a long time and my HDL as of two weeks ago is 45 and my LDL is 50. Not bad compared to when I was running adex and I was at 25 HDL and 76 LDL. That being said I know 405 is around 150-175mg of test a week, so the aromasin would not have to be run as high as a person on a traditional cycle of 500-1g Test a week. For HRT purposes at lower doses I think 3-6mg of Aromasin EOD is plenty vs the standard run of 12.5 ED or EOD.

[--->>405<<---]

im a bit curious because my TRT doc does not like the idea of indefinitely running adex. he did not give a reason other than saying its not good to run it long term.

[Phased]

im a bit curious because my TRT doc does not like the idea of indefinitely running adex. he did not give a reason other than saying its not good to run it long term.

I'm curious as well as also to know why you are having so much problems wiith your e2 even though still you are on Adex. You have low bodyfat, you workout and eat right. I don't see where and why the body is wanting to produce more estrogen then it needs, especially with a low dose of HRT.

I think your e2 has a lot to do with keeping you from getting your bf% down, with higher estrogen, estrogenic fat will likely occur and that could be one of the factors in all of this as well.

[--->>405<<---]

its been awhile since it was elevated. both of the past 2 times it went down low. cuz i was taking too much. maybe i just have not been diligent enuff. def gonna try to do it properly this time. if i can figure out how to go about it.

[kelkel]

Agree with alot of the above. Several guys I know recently on TRT protocols have been able to greatly reduce or eliminate their AI by virtue of lowering their body fat along with the other reasons Phased spoke of. Most of us here are very familiar with your struggle with your E2 and hopefully one day you'll nail it. Maybe even be off of the AI totally. Trust me, it's great not having to use one....

Whatever route you choose. Start low and titrate up based on BW. No guessing please.

And thanks for the avi change! Much better.

[--->>405<<---]

hey kel u think it might help my situation with E2 if i switch to subq injects? have considered it. have yall been doing subq still? i know yall were talkn about it for awhile a few months ago..

ur welcome on the avi

[Phased]

hey kel u think it might help my situation with E2 if i switch to subq injects? have considered it. have yall been doing subq still? i know yall were talkn about it for awhile a few months ago..

ur welcome on the avi

What was your last e2 score. You also just got tested again yesterday if I'm not mistaken.

[bass]

Everything I've heard about aromasin is to be less harsh on the body, lipid in particular as apposed to adex. If you have the choice then I suggest you go with aromasin.

[--->>405<<---]

What was your last e2 score. You also just got tested again yesterday if I'm not mistaken.

no im getn tested next week.

last E2 was <3(3-70) on 2mg adex per week. obviously too much but 1mg per week had me elevated. unless i didnt run it long enuff. if i recall there was no in between. 1.5mg had me too high and 2mg had me bottomed out. ill have to look back thru my tests.

[Phased]

If you stay on the adex, try to get a way to come from that dose. At 3-E2, you must have felt horrible.

[Phased]

Everything I've heard about aromasin is to be less harsh on the body, lipid in particular as apposed to adex. If you have the choice then I suggest you go with aromasin.

With you on this one 100%.

[Vettester]

I have run aromasin for a long time and my HDL as of two weeks ago is 45 and my LDL is 50. Not bad compared to when I was running adex and I was at 25 HDL and 76 LDL. That being said I know 405 is around 150-175mg of test a week, so the aromasin would not have to be run as high as a person on a traditional cycle of 500-1g Test a week. For HRT purposes at lower doses I think 3-6mg of Aromasin EOD is plenty vs the standard run of 12.5 ED or EOD.

Good information, as I've personally never administered Aromasin . Fortunately, like some others, I've been able to pretty much pull away from AI's all together, and attribute some of it obviously to going SubQ earlier this year. Even before then, I was only at .25mg x 2/wk on the Adex.

405, maybe you already posted labs, but are there other variables upstream and on your assays that are also out of balance? DHEA, preg, DHT, thyroid labs/antibodies? Just curious, as the body is constant to seek homeostasis. Wondering if there are other markers to give some sort of indication to why you are seeing so much variance? Can't say enough good things about the SubQ route, so definitely give that some consideration.

Also, the Avi?? There was a completely different guy in the one I saw earlier today?? My eyes must be fvkcing giving out on me. Bad test!

[Wazz]

You can run aromasin almost indef with no effect on lipids, however adex is very harsh on them, raising LDL and lowering HDL. Aromasin is a much better option for HRT. Adex can also give bad headaches, never had one with aromasin here.

Everything I've heard about aromasin is to be less harsh on the body, lipid in particular as apposed to adex. If you have the choice then I suggest you go with aromasin.

Everything both of you stated I have found to be spot on. I spent most of the day JUST researching AI's for during cycle & this seems to be the common story amongst others VS. Aromasin . I'll continue researching for the first cycle (simple) ill be running in a few months. Thanks to threads like this with actual feedback I'm catching some great notes..

Thx, Wazz

[Phased]

Good information, as I've personally never administered Aromasin . Fortunately, like some others, I've been able to pretty much pull away from AI's all together, and attribute some of it obviously to going SubQ earlier this year. Even before then, I was only at .25mg x 2/wk on the Adex.

405, maybe you already posted labs, but are there other variables upstream and on your assays that are also out of balance? DHEA, preg, DHT, thyroid labs/antibodies? Just curious, as the body is constant to seek homeostasis. Wondering if there are other markers to give some sort of indication to why you are seeing so much variance? Can't say enough good things about the SubQ route, so definitely give that some consideration.

Also, the Avi?? There was a completely different guy in the one I saw earlier today?? My eyes must be fvkcing giving out on me. Bad test!

You will have to school me on going subq and the advantages over IM. I am very interested in trying this. Thanks in advance.

[MuscleInk]

Definitely an interesting thread. I had a similar discussion today with my colleagues about lipid profiles on Adex vs. aromasin . Oddly, we have not observed these differences in our patients being treated with either AI but then again, we are talking about terminally ill patients in our clinics with a host of comorbidites and confounding variables.

I placed a call to the drug manufacturer today with this question in mind (lipid differentials) and would like an answer based on personal and professional curiosity.

I'm running .5mg of Adex daily for 2 weeks. Yes, it's a high dose but my E went sky high from preloading sust400 so I'm trying to bring it down fast. I haven't had any issues....until this afternoon when I started having a headache. I'll likely cut the dose back to .5mg EOD until I run my labs next week.

I have aromasin and femara on hand but Adex has been my personal preference.

[jimmyinkedup]

Very interesting topic. The immediate correlation to lipids , one would think , would be exactly what vettester pointed out (e2 levels). It certainly plays a role thats for sure. In researching aromasin though I came upon an interesting study. Young males with highly elevated estrogen were administered 50mgs/day of aromasin. While it dramatically reduced the estrogen ...e2 levels remained on the low end of clinically normal!
What this tell me is that while aromasin is very effective ..it is also very difficult to crush e2 using it. Perhaps that explains the lipid profile anomaly.

[--->>405<<---]

Good information, as I've personally never administered Aromasin . Fortunately, like some others, I've been able to pretty much pull away from AI's all together, and attribute some of it obviously to going SubQ earlier this year. Even before then, I was only at .25mg x 2/wk on the Adex.

405, maybe you already posted labs, but are there other variables upstream and on your assays that are also out of balance? DHEA, preg, DHT, thyroid labs/antibodies? Just curious, as the body is constant to seek homeostasis. Wondering if there are other markers to give some sort of indication to why you are seeing so much variance? Can't say enough good things about the SubQ route, so definitely give that some consideration.

Also, the Avi?? There was a completely different guy in the one I saw earlier today?? My eyes must be fvkcing giving out on me. Bad test!

DHEA i have switched to micronized 50mg per day as of 2 weeks ago.

Preg i have done nothing about and suppose i need to request that in my next blood work.

Thyroid while not hypo it is less than optimal according to the doc. primarily free t3 i believe. he put me on armour thyroid which i ran for a week or 2 until i woke up in the middle of the night with a hard pounding fast heartbeat. dont wanna go thru that again!

DHT i know nothing about

Antibodies i know nothing about

Definitely an interesting thread. I had a similar discussion today with my colleagues about lipid profiles on Adex vs. aromasin. Oddly, we have not observed these differences in our patients being treated with either AI but then again, we are talking about terminally ill patients in our clinics with a host of comorbidites and confounding variables.

I placed a call to the drug manufacturer today with this question in mind (lipid differentials) and would like an answer based on personal and professional curiosity.

curious to hear what they said???

Vettester if u wouldnt mind telling me what labs i need to get tested next week when i have them done so we can see the whole picture i would really appreciate it dude! my doc i think does not have the knowledge i hoped he had. i get the impression he is in this business to make money and only has enuff knowledge to manage HRT with patients to a certain degree. it is becoming more and more apparent i cannot rely on him to manage mine. he is just a prescription writer it appears.

appreciate all ur replys i am def gonna look into aromasin and poss switch to subq injects

[Vettester]

You will have to school me on going subq and the advantages over IM. I am very interested in trying this. Thanks in advance.

Well, not sure that I can school anyone on this subject, but I can speak a little bit about personal experiences, and what I believe is some of the reasoning behind it for maybe giving it consideration.

Like I mentioned, I pretty much had my Adex dialed in on my my protocol at .25mg x 2/wk, which complimented my 120mg/wk of cyp an 250iu x 3/wk of HCG protocol. As a maintenance dose, I could pretty much count on it to stabilize my E2 at/around my desired level. At the first of the year, my E2 was at 23pg, I believe that was the Labcorp sensitive assay (whatever the ranges are on that). After switching to SubQ, my E2 dropped to 18pg with the same assay after just a couple of months. If anything, If there were any +/- variances, I would normally see it increase just slightly, which I could then tweak my AI protocol slightly if needed for a short period of time. Never had I seen a 5 point drop in a few months on such a low dosage of AI.

From there, I discontinued my AI protocol, and even at this point my E2 is currently just in the 20's, and I attribute the slight increase to titrating my cyp dosage up a bit back in June. I just recently started a blast of 360mg of test, and 360mg of deca (both SubQ BTW), and I will run E2 labs here shortly to see the effects. I am actually looking to get my E2 up in the high 20's/low 30's for a bit, as I tend to have better physical and psychological results when in that range.

As far as why the subcutaneous application is more effective over IM with E2 control ... I feel it probably has to do with the absorption rate of the medication is going to be slower in the adipose tissue due to the blood supply not being as abundant with what you would see in the case of administering via IM. In short, the slower release into the system would help reduce some of the sudden onset of spikes associated with the peak life and half life of exogenous test, therefore potentially controlling the higher rate of downstream conversion to E2. That's just my take on it, but there maybe some conclusive scientific studies that illustrate it much differently. GD is a member that is quite articulated on this subject, so he maybe able to shed some additional insight.

[Vettester]

405, IMO, it just sounds like it would be a pretty good idea to run the gamut if you can, minus things like LH/FSH, which are redundant at this point. However, sometimes it's an all inclusive package, so take what you can get. Look at Kelks finding a TRT physician sticky for the list. On the thyroid panels, read the needed labs from http://www.stopthethyroidmadness.com...ended-labwork/ ... This also includes the thyroid antibodies. Plus, add the suggested labs of iron TIBC, & ferritin. Trust me when I say that ferritin levels (if you're hemochromatosis or a carrier thereof) can play havok on your liver productivity (and other organs too), which can play into the hand of some of these other issues you are experiencing. I went through it and I am indeed a carrier as confirmed by a biopsy. My lipids are naturally negative, as is my dad's profile, who is the genetic carrier I inherited this from. Correlation?? My doctor thinks so. Again, rule it out or it might be something you will be chasing for a long time to come. Also, throw in your Vitamin D3 lab, which I think is also mention on Kelk's sticky.

[Phased]

Very interesting topic. The immediate correlation to lipids , one would think , would be exactly what vettester pointed out (e2 levels). It certainly plays a role thats for sure. In researching aromasin though I came upon an interesting study. Young males with highly elevated estrogen were administered 50mgs/day of aromasin. While it dramatically reduced the estrogen ...e2 levels remained on the low end of clinically normal!
What this tell me is that while aromasin is very effective ..it is also very difficult to crush e2 using it. Perhaps that explains the lipid profile anomaly.

405, this may be your golden ticket.

[bass]

Well, not sure that I can school anyone on this subject, but I can speak a little bit about personal experiences, and what I believe is some of the reasoning behind it for maybe giving it consideration.

Like I mentioned, I pretty much had my Adex dialed in on my my protocol at .25mg x 2/wk, which complimented my 120mg/wk of cyp an 250iu x 3/wk of HCG protocol. As a maintenance dose, I could pretty much count on it to stabilize my E2 at/around my desired level. At the first of the year, my E2 was at 23pg, I believe that was the Labcorp sensitive assay (whatever the ranges are on that). After switching to SubQ, my E2 dropped to 18pg with the same assay after just a couple of months. If anything, If there were any +/- variances, I would normally see it increase just slightly, which I could then tweak my AI protocol slightly if needed for a short period of time. Never had I seen a 5 point drop in a few months on such a low dosage of AI.

From there, I discontinued my AI protocol, and even at this point my E2 is currently just in the 20's, and I attribute the slight increase to titrating my cyp dosage up a bit back in June. I just recently started a blast of 360mg of test, and 360mg of deca (both SubQ BTW), and I will run E2 labs here shortly to see the effects. I am actually looking to get my E2 up in the high 20's/low 30's for a bit, as I tend to have better physical and psychological results when in that range.

As far as why the subcutaneous application is more effective over IM with E2 control ... I feel it probably has to do with the absorption rate of the medication is going to be slower in the adipose tissue due to the blood supply not being as abundant with what you would see in the case of administering via IM. In short, the slower release into the system would help reduce some of the sudden onset of spikes associated with the peak life and half life of exogenous test, therefore potentially controlling the higher rate of downstream conversion to E2. That's just my take on it, but there maybe some conclusive scientific studies that illustrate it much differently. GD is a member that is quite articulated on this subject, so he maybe able to shed some additional insight.

well explained Vette! the keyword here is "Spikes" if you recall my last two BW showed my e2 in the tank, so i reduced my intake from 0.5 mg twice a week to 0.25 mg twice week, and to be honest i still feel my e2 is in the tank due to noticeable sides like joint pain especially in hands! i never had this problem. anyway, i just did BW today and will see how the 0.25 mgs twice a week is doing, i have a feeling I'll be dropping the AI entirely. if so then SQ must be the reason why.

[--->>405<<---]

Very interesting topic. The immediate correlation to lipids , one would think , would be exactly what vettester pointed out (e2 levels). It certainly plays a role thats for sure. In researching aromasin though I came upon an interesting study. Young males with highly elevated estrogen were administered 50mgs/day of aromasin. While it dramatically reduced the estrogen ...e2 levels remained on the low end of clinically normal!
What this tell me is that while aromasin is very effective ..it is also very difficult to crush e2 using it. Perhaps that explains the lipid profile anomaly.

405, this may be your golden ticket.

Jimmy thx bro! if this is indeed the caSE itd be music to my ears! i am tired of dealing with Estradiol

[Phased]

Vet where do you do your subq pinning and what gauge needle. I am going to try subq in my stomach. And do .33ml per spot and start there.

[bass]

i think Vette dost it on the belly as well. i was doing it on the belly and once in a while i got a blue bruise and sometimes a lump. then switched to the upper thigh in front, no pain, no blue marks and no lumps, but i do hCG in the belly. this way it minimizes the amount of pins i do in one area.

[--->>405<<---]

i think Vette dost it on the belly as well. i was doing it on the belly and once in a while i got a blue bruise and sometimes a lump. then switched to the upper thigh in front, no pain, no blue marks and no lumps, but i do hCG in the belly. this way it minimizes the amount of pins i do in one area.

pretty much wherever u can pinch an inch rite?

what gauge and length bass?

[bass]

i use 28 x 1/2", much faster to load and pin.

[Phased]

Using a 25-5/8" here. So upper front thigh you say? It would be nice to not use an AI anymore if this really works.

[Vettester]

Vet where do you do your subq pinning and what gauge needle. I am going to try subq in my stomach. And do .33ml per spot and start there.

Phased, I'm pinning within a 2" perimeter of the naval; using 31g x 5/16" (1/2cc).

.33 ml should be just fine. I run .40 on the blast with no problem. Part of the trick I find is to go fairly slow, maybe even a minute or more. Plus, keeping an eye on the angle of the needle. You'll notice some are slightly bent just a hair. I get a feel of the needle with how it hangs out the bottle when it's filling up. I inject with both fingers holding the syringe at the base, and try to stay at the exact angle the needle is pointing.

[Phased]

Sounds like we think alike, I will be doing the same thing.
Thank you
See you around

[--->>405<<---]

Phased, I'm pinning within a 2" perimeter of the naval; using 31g x 5/16" (1/2cc).

.33 ml should be just fine. I run .40 on the blast with no problem. Part of the trick I find is to go fairly slow, maybe even a minute or more. Plus, keeping an eye on the angle of the needle. You'll notice some are slightly bent just a hair. I get a feel of the needle with how it hangs out the bottle when it's filling up. I inject with both fingers holding the syringe at the base, and try to stay at the exact angle the needle is pointing.

good to know because .4mL is my TRT dose!

think im gonna order some needles. i like the idea of 5/16". this is similar (or the same) as the 50iU slin pin for HCG is it not? also when injecting subq do u aspirate ?

and also i suppose if i use the left side (navel) on thurs nite for HCG then use the right side friday am for the test..

[Phased]

Can anyone comment to the validity of hcg being used as a spot site fat loss agent. My AA clinic doctor tried to convice me of this. I'm not sold but I could be wrong. With anything I want facts not speculation.
Thanks

[bass]

Can anyone comment to the validity of hcg being used as a spot site fat loss agent. My AA clinic doctor tried to convice me of this. I'm not sold but I could be wrong. With anything I want facts not speculation.
Thanks

Bunch of rubbish, don't buy it.

[Phased]

Bunch of rubbish, don't buy it.

Thank you, my thoughts as well.