I read the sticky threads, but I am having a hard time finding my optimal range

**boxingfan30** · 01-21-2013, 01:05 AM

LabCorb used:

Total 636 (348-1197)
FT: 11.2 (8.7-25.1)
E2: 13.1 (7.6-42.6) Roche ECLIA methodology

All other tests were "normal" although kidney function was borderline high.

I had gone through a lot of debate with myself about not using anything to using a high test dose for growth, but I need shoulder surgery and I have a lot of back pain with bulging discs, a torn disc, and a crack in my spine.

I've had everything looked over and the Doctor's don't really have an explanation. I'm just having a hard time with feeling angry a lot more than normal which has gotten worse over the last few years, some depression. Lately I just have such a hard time concentrating... like my thinking is slow. I guess I don't feel nearly as sharp as before.

I'm 34 now and it was suggested to me that maybe a lower dose of maybe 125-150 mg's per week of test might be a better idea than anything high.

I've asked about this before. I'm just trying to get more ideas though. It's a really big decision. I just want to feel better.

**lovbyts** · 01-21-2013, 01:47 AM

I'm a little confused. So with your results at the top are those natural or are you using Test? How much are you using? Is it at those levels you are not feeling right/foggy?

**boxingfan30** · 01-21-2013, 06:55 AM

No, I am not, have never used any sort of test or anything to increase levels. Yes, at this level I am still feeling as you stated. Lipids all check out, all other blood tests look good and I get my blood done usually about every 6 months. I am also worried about the impending surgery on my shoulder in which I will be totally out of commission for about 2 months to move the arm and then... I guess another 2 for therapy. I was a slow developing child with my body, so much so I had a soft spot until 5 years old.

Anyway, I know i've posted a lot of theads. I just want to make sure i'm doing the right thing and i'm also trying to narrow it down from guys who are also using it.

**boxingfan30** · 01-21-2013, 06:56 AM

By the way, my free total test was low last year. I don't know why it wasn't checked this time.

**lovbyts** · 01-21-2013, 07:27 AM

Well your test levels look really good. I would not consider using any testosterone to try to promote healing because it will do more harm than good. I will not add to your test, it's not a supplement. It will shut your natural test off and replace it and then when you stop using it you have to get your natural testosterone going again and that's not always so easy to do.

When you say your free was low how low? With your total test that high it's hard to imagine and your E2 is good.

Have you had other healing issues in the past or maybe you are just a little worried about your up coming surgery? Here is a recent post from one of our members and myself in regards to our recent (hers was yesterday) shoulder surgeries. Mine was 7 months ago. There are several post in regards to shoulder surgeries in the injury and rehab section.
http://forums.steroid .com/showthread.php?523863-I-read-the-sticky-threads-but-I-am-having-a-hard-time-finding-my-optimal-range#.UP1Ao0Hhxv8

If you really feel you need something to promote healing try to find a longevity clinic and get a prescription for HGH. DONT try to find it online. You will find a lot of retailers but you wont find any real HGH. Only thing you will find are a lot of people willing to take your money with no remorse.

**bullshark99** · 01-21-2013, 08:26 AM

Couldnt agree more here^^^^^^, taking Tes may be a band aid causing much bigger problems later. HgH, wouldnt touch ANYTHING, unless it came directly from the pharmacy! Lots of BS out there, be advised it is hard to get a Doc to OK, and it is awful expensive

**boxingfan30** · 01-21-2013, 11:37 AM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Well your test levels look really good. I would not consider using any testosterone to try to promote healing because it will do more harm than good. I will not add to your test, it's not a supplement. It will shut your natural test off and replace it and then when you stop using it you have to get your natural testosterone going again and that's not always so easy to do.

When you say your free was low how low? With your total test that high it's hard to imagine and your E2 is good.

Have you had other healing issues in the past or maybe you are just a little worried about your up coming surgery? Here is a recent post from one of our members and myself in regards to our recent (hers was yesterday) shoulder surgeries. Mine was 7 months ago. There are several post in regards to shoulder surgeries in the injury and rehab section.
http://forums.steroid .com/showthread.php?523863-I-read-the-sticky-threads-but-I-am-having-a-hard-time-finding-my-optimal-range#.UP1Ao0Hhxv8

If you really feel you need something to promote healing try to find a longevity clinic and get a prescription for HGH. DONT try to find it online. You will find a lot of retailers but you wont find any real HGH. Only thing you will find are a lot of people willing to take your money with no remorse.

I can't take HGH, we have a family history of pancreatic cancer... i'd rather not risk it. I just want to know what has caused my drop in mood. I've been married for a year... a wonderful Wife, sex life is good, but it will go soft on occassion... which may be because my BP is always been lower (106/64) the last time, so that hasn't worried me so much. I'll put it this way, at 34 my temper outbursts are much worse than they were at 18. Part of that could be life circumstances or just stress... anyway... here's my total free%

Testost., % Free&Weakly Bound

8.6

9.0 - 46.0%

That was on 10/7/11

My free test has steadily dropped, as I would likely expect it to with age, here are the following tests all the way back from 09.

Testosterone

643

250 - 1100

ng/dL

Testosterone, Free Pct

1.70

1.50 - 2.20

%

Testosterone, Free

109.3

35.0 - 155.0

pg/mL

^^^^ from 8/27/09

Testosterone

658

250 - 1100

ng/dL

Test performed at QUEST DIAGNOSTICS NICHOLS INSTITUTE
14225 Newbrook Drive
Chantilly, VA 20153

Testosterone, Free Pct

1.42

1.50 - 2.20

%

Testosterone, Free

93.4

35.0 - 155.0

pg/mL

^^^^^ from 7/20/10

Testosterone

647

241 - 827

ng/dL

^^^^ from 9/15/11 No total done for some reason.

Growth Hormone

0.2

0.0 - 2.9

ng/mL

^^^^^ 10/7/11 (just thought i'd post that up in case anyone thought it might be important)

Testosterone

796

249 - 836

ng/dL

***Effective October 17, 2011 Testosterone, Serum
reference interval for Adult Male will be changing
to 348-1197.

Testost., % Free&Weakly Bound

8.6

9.0 - 46.0

%

Testost., F&W Bound

68.5

40.0 - 250.0

ng/dL

Also on 10/7/11 (the higher total was while I was doing 90 minutes a day on the stationary bike, but my back will not allow that anymore, could also have been a fluke)

Testosterone

636

348 - 1197

ng/dL

Testosterone, Free

11.2

8.7 - 25.1

pg/mL

^^^^ most recent test done 10/11/12 again... no total free test done.

Note: the first few tests were done by Quest and obviously the last few done by labcorb. It just seems like while my total is sort of hanging in the low to mid 600's, my free is going down.

**boxingfan30** · 01-21-2013, 11:41 AM

Also I will note that the Doctor that I use only does blood work from 8 am-12 noon so all levels are likely higher than say a middle of the day test in which test drops throughout the day (or so I have read).

**boxingfan30** · 01-21-2013, 09:11 PM

Any ideas on these numbers guys?

**jasondd1** · 01-21-2013, 09:18 PM

Im a newb myself but your numbers look good. I don't see that HRT would help

**lovbyts** · 01-21-2013, 10:19 PM

Your only 34, your numbers should not be dropping due to age. You need to have a doctor run more test to see if you have a thyroid or gland problem. Jumping on TRT at your age should be a last resort.

Some things that can effect you test are lack of sleep, weight gain, drinking and ejaculation within 48 hrs.

**boxingfan30** · 01-21-2013, 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Your only 34, your numbers should not be dropping due to age. You need to have a doctor run more test to see if you have a thyroid or gland problem. Jumping on TRT at your age should be a last resort.

Some things that can effect you test are lack of sleep, weight gain, drinking and ejaculation within 48 hrs.

I thought a lot of guys got on TRT around 30? No? I'm not gaining any weight and I don't drink at all... never have been drunk in my life at all actually. The ejaculation... well..... lol.

My total test isn't my concern much, but I just feel like my free should be higher and i've looked into natural ways of trying to raise that, but most of it seems like a hype job. Zinc for instance has been said to raise free test.. in several studies however, it showed little to no help.

**lovbyts** · 01-22-2013, 12:58 AM

There are a lot of guys who want to get on TRT in their 30s but mostly because they think it's a way to get Test legally and be able to cycle off and on when they want. They are not thinking about the long term. If they were they would NOT be considering it. There are many variables most people dont think about.

It's not as simple as injecting Testosterone 1 or 2x a week. Most people eventually realize they also need or should be using HCG especially if you want to have any chance of future fertility and just keeping your balls and swimmers healthy. Most insurances wont cover HCG and it can cost you another couple of hundred a month depending on where you get it.

There is also no guarantee you will always have insurance or that Testosterone will always be covered so that would be another monthly expense. What do you do if/when you are in-between jobs?

How long do you think you might live? 80s? That is another 50 years of having to stick yourself with a needle 1 or 2x a week with test only adding in the HCG that's another 2x a week. I dont even want to try to add those numbers up.

There is a recent post on how to raise your testosterone naturally. Yes it works but it's not going to be a 200 point increase. It's really in your best interest to find out why your levels are low. You dont want to just mask the problem by dumping test on it.

**MuscleInk** · 01-22-2013, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by lovbyts

Your only 34, your numbers should not be dropping due to age. You need to have a doctor run more test to see if you have a thyroid or gland problem. Jumping on TRT at your age should be a last resort.

Some things that can effect you test are lack of sleep, weight gain, drinking and ejaculation within 48 hrs.

Agreed Lovbyts. Irritates me when I read posts from guys who really don't need HRT and are just looking for "legal" ways to cycle steroids . HRT should be used for LOW T. I didn't seek HRT until I was 39 and only because I was experiencing lethargy and declining strength in the gym. When I tested my natural T levels I was shocked to find out my levels were at 152!

**kelkel** · 01-22-2013, 10:21 AM

Add vitamin D3 to your protocol at maybe 5K IU per day. It will reduce shbg thus allowing more free T. Also remember to test your 25 Hyrdoxy (D3) on your next BW.

http://www.lef.org/magazine/mag2010/...olution_01.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20050857

Many more studies are available and there have also been some great threads here on the success of vit D supplementation as well.

**boxingfan30** · 01-22-2013, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by MuscleInk

Agreed Lovbyts. Irritates me when I read posts from guys who really don't need HRT and are just looking for "legal" ways to cycle steroids. HRT should be used for LOW T. I didn't seek HRT until I was 39 and only because I was experiencing lethargy and declining strength in the gym. When I tested my natural T levels I was shocked to find out my levels were at 152!

I do feel lethargic and very foggy, all my other numbers look good Doc, you've seen them yourself so you know. I figured that some people just functioned better perhaps on a bit higher number. As I said though, i'm not so much worried about getting my total T up, as that looks ok. My free T just seems like it could be a little higher and I was wondering how I could get that part up, or if it's even possible.

**The Deadlifting Dog** · 01-22-2013, 01:41 PM

boxingfan30,

As kelkel said earlier: start taking 5000ius of Vitamin D3 a day. Vitamin D3 will lower your SHBG. having less SHBG will increase your free testosterone . (SHBG binds to testosterone and causes the testosterone to be unable to enter a cell and activate its androgen receptor. Testosterone that is not bound is called free testosterone.) Lower SHBG equals more free T.

**boxingfan30** · 01-22-2013, 02:18 PM

Ok, i'll get some of that and give it a try.

A quick question about vitamin D. My Father and Mother have both been on D before... right now my Dad is on 50,000 iu's once a day. Why do they give that much in a single dose.

**The Deadlifting Dog** · 01-22-2013, 02:32 PM

He might be on a script for vitamin D2. People with low vitamin D often get prescribed 50,000ius of D2 once a week but sometimes also daily at that dose. I don't believe people stay at that dosage once their serum levels rise. However you should try Vitamin D3. (I believe vitamin D2 gets converted into D3 in the body.)

**boxingfan30** · 01-22-2013, 02:40 PM

Yeah, I am going to try it, and correction... I meant to say once a week in a single dose. I just didn't know why they didn't split it up throughout the week.

**bp2000** · 01-22-2013, 02:51 PM

check your thyroid levels as they can mimic the effects of low T such as lethargy and brain fog. You can take your temp before you get out of bed in the mourning if average less than 98 you have sluggish Thyroid.

**jasondd1** · 01-22-2013, 03:07 PM

Originally Posted by bp2000

check your thyroid levels as they can mimic the effects of low T such as lethargy and brain fog. You can take your temp before you get out of bed in the mourning if average less than 98 you have sluggish Thyroid.

I am like 96 degrees and my TSH is .993 range .45-4.5

Which is perfectly normal

**boxingfan30** · 01-22-2013, 09:07 PM

I've had my thyroid checked multiple times because of anxiety... it was always fine.

**lacey23** · 01-23-2013, 08:15 AM

Originally Posted by boxingfan30

I've had my thyroid checked multiple times because of anxiety... it was always fine.

What do you mean by fine? A lot of Doc's will tell you your it is fine because it's in the normal range, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's fine. What were your numbers? That said, adding thyroid medication into the mix will increase SHBG/lower free test.

In all honesty TRT may be an option. I'm not exactly sure why people are saying your numbers are good. That free test level is in the bottom 15% of the normal range. Some people may be fine at that level, and others experience low test symptoms at that level. Personally when I got on TRT I was free test in the bottom 15% of the normal range, and I could barely function.

That said, I would try and find another possible solution first. If it's possible, it is better to have a functioning HPTA, and there can be different reasons that are causing the low free test. Give the vitamin D a try. Reduce stress.

**boxingfan30** · 01-23-2013, 01:27 PM

That is the main thing i'm wondering about. If I could lift like I used to, i'd just go with Doc's advice that he had given me before, but without being about to lift to my full potential, there's no point in using a high dose of test. The free is in the normal range, but we all know normal is sort of a very loose term... especially when it comes to this sort of thing. I have been looking at the D3. I guess it doesn't really matter what brand it is, except from a local drug store. I'll just start there and have another test done in a month or so after it's had a chance to get into my system.

So 5,000 iu's a day is sufficient for what I want to do? Any other supplements that might help this while i'm ordering this? Anything proven to actually work?

**boxingfan30** · 01-24-2013, 12:45 AM

Ordered some D3 and ZMA tonight. I like how the ZMA helps me to sleep more restfully and some claim that zinc can help with test, though i've also read that was a myth. We shall see how the D3 works on my FT levels though.

**boxingfan30** · 01-25-2013, 01:21 AM

Someone had asked me about my thyroid, and I just was looking over my tests and found it... this was in October

TSH 1.710

0.450 - 4.500 uIU/mL

Is this considered low or bad or anything?

**flyrs** · 01-26-2013, 02:53 AM

I think gdevine is good with thyroid stuff, I think your TSH might be fine but I think he said the reverse T3 and the antibodies tell the real story....maybe you could PM gdevine if he doesn't respond here...

**lacey23** · 01-26-2013, 03:10 AM

Originally Posted by boxingfan30

Someone had asked me about my thyroid, and I just was looking over my tests and found it... this was in October

TSH 1.710

0.450 - 4.500 uIU/mL

Is this considered low or bad or anything?

It's hard to tell from just TSH. At first flance it doesn't seem like a big deal.

But, the common analogy is that trying to determine what your thyroid is doing by looking at TSH is comparable to trying to figure out how fast your are going by looking at the space between the gas peddle and the floor of your car. There are other factors. Are you going uphill, or downhill? How big is your engine, etc...

**boxingfan30** · 01-28-2013, 03:29 PM

I don't know... I am just trying to figure out when my mood swings and poor concentration started which seems like it was about 4-5 years ago, which would put me on par with the free test dropping over time. I have even asked my Mother, Sister, etc when it started and they all have said about 5 years ago... this is without me telling them when I thought that it was. Honestly, as was mentioned earlier... I don't want to have to stick myself with a needle twice a week for the rest of my life, BUT... if it makes me feel better will I? Damn right I will. I'm not living like this. My Wife is a very good woman and doesn't deserve to have to live with someone who can turn into a monster at the drop of a hat.