gdevine and kel's TRT Protocol

[clarkster]

Hey Guys- You both have been a tremendous resource for all of us here. I keep seeing people ask you what your current TRT protocols are and I wanted a thread dedicated to that. Thanks again for all your help.

[fireeater49]

Definitely has been a great source of info and encouragement. Thanks guys

[clarkster]

GD- You mentioned that you and kel were on pretty much the same protocol of 60mg. twice a week, both IM and Sub Q. What day are you pinning IM and what day do you pin Sub Q? What size needle are you using IM? Are you using hCG 250iu's 3 times a week as well?
kel had mentioned that he's pinning every 3.5 days, for example, if you pinned on Monday what is 3.5 days after that? Thursday? I'm a little confused by the .5 day part of it. Again, thanks for your guys knowledge.

[Papa Smurf]

GD- You mentioned that you and kel were on pretty much the same protocol of 60mg. twice a week, both IM and Sub Q. What day are you pinning IM and what day do you pin Sub Q? What size needle are you using IM? Are you using hCG 250iu's 3 times a week as well?
kel had mentioned that he's pinning every 3.5 days, for example, if you pinned on Monday what is 3.5 days after that? Thursday? I'm a little confused by the .5 day part of it. Again, thanks for your guys knowledge.

Afternoon verses morning equals half day Example Saturday morning and Tues afternoon

[clarkster]

Totally dumb question here. When I'm pinning Sub Q, 50mg. of Test Cyp is measured at 25 on my insulin needle. What would 60mg. be measured at on said insulin needle? And what would 60mg. be measured on IM needle if 50mg. is .25 on that needle? Simple math eludes me.

[Papa Smurf]

Totally dumb question here. When I'm pinning Sub Q, 50mg. of Test Cyp is measured at 25 on my insulin needle. What would 60mg. be measured at on said insulin needle? And what would 60mg. be measured on IM needle if 50mg. is .25 on that needle? Simple math eludes me.

Bro in less something has changed Test has to be intermuscular injection, I have never heard of a sub Q test, Now the hcg is sub Q maybe your confussed

[steroid.com 1]

Ok, keep one thing in mind, we are all different so what works for me, or kel for that matter, is what works for us...it may not work for you.

Monday AM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week) and 250 iu HCG
Wednesday AM: 250 iu HCG
Thursday PM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week)
Friday AM: 250 iu HCG
Every Day: 50 mg oral DHEA and 50 mg of oral Pregnenolone both micronized and 2.5 mg of Selegiline.

With this protocol I no longer need an AI as E2 is very stable in the upper 20's.

For IM injections I use a 27gG 1 1/4" needle in a 1cc syringe (BD LurLock)
For SQ injections I use a 30G 5/16" insulin pin.

[FONZY007]

Bro in less something has changed Test has to be intermuscular injection, I have never heard of a sub Q test, Now the hcg is sub Q maybe your confussed

A lot of us here do sub q injections for our trt protocol. I personally do!!

[steroid.com 1]

Bro in less something has changed Test has to be intermuscular injection, I have never heard of a sub Q test, Now the hcg is sub Q maybe your confussed

Where have you been???

[MisterD]

Monday AM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week) and 250 iu HCG
Wednesday AM: 250 iu HCG
Thursday PM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week)
Friday AM: 250 iu HCG
Every Day: 50 mg oral DHEA and 50 mg of oral Pregnenolone both micronized and 2.5 mg of Selegiline.

With this protocol I no longer need an AI as E2 is very stable in the upper 20's.

Gdevine

I dont get the part that you (IM or SQ I mix it up over week)

Does this mean you SQ your test shot?

[steroid.com 1]

Monday AM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week) and 250 iu HCG
Wednesday AM: 250 iu HCG
Thursday PM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week)
Friday AM: 250 iu HCG
Every Day: 50 mg oral DHEA and 50 mg of oral Pregnenolone both micronized and 2.5 mg of Selegiline.

With this protocol I no longer need an AI as E2 is very stable in the upper 20's.

Gdevine

I dont get the part that you (IM or SQ I mix it up over week)

Does this mean you SQ your test shot?

Yes, I SQ Testosterone every other week: One week IM the next week SQ and so on...

[MisterD]

Now i be a rockie but ive been doing TRT and the only real-estate I use to pin is my glute...

So your telling me you pin your 60mg Test shot SQ with the insulin pin... I your stomach?

Wow thats a new one for me. My head is spinning right now!

[clarkster]

I completely understand and agree with you. I just wanted to see what and how you guys may have varied *your* TRT. I haven't been here that long and already have learned more here than going to my Doc for TRT over the past year.

Ok, keep one thing in mind, we are all different so what works for me, or kel for that matter, is what works for us...it may not work for you.

Monday AM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week) and 250 iu HCG
Wednesday AM: 250 iu HCG
Thursday PM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week)
Friday AM: 250 iu HCG
Every Day: 50 mg oral DHEA and 50 mg of oral Pregnenolone both micronized and 2.5 mg of Selegiline.

With this protocol I no longer need an AI as E2 is very stable in the upper 20's.

For IM injections I use a 27gG 1 1/4" needle in a 1cc syringe (BD LurLock)
For SQ injections I use a 30G 5/16" insulin pin.

[clarkster]

Now i be a rockie but ive been doing TRT and the only real-estate I use to pin is my glute...

So your telling me you pin your 60mg Test shot SQ with the insulin pin... I your stomach?

Wow thats a new one for me. My head is spinning right now!

I *think* this is based on Dr. Crisler's approach to TRT. There is a Canadian study (although I've not seen it, only people have mentioned it on the boards) about the effectiveness of Sub Q injections of Test. From my understanding for TRT only protocols and those lower doses, not for running gear at cycle levels.

[clarkster]

Bro in less something has changed Test has to be intermuscular injection, I have never heard of a sub Q test, Now the hcg is sub Q maybe your confussed

From what I understand, Sub Q is for TRT purposes only. Meaning doses of (correct me if I'm wrong) 50mg. or 60mg. with each injection.

[Trific]

Bro in less something has changed Test has to be intermuscular injection, I have never heard of a sub Q test, Now the hcg is sub Q maybe your confussed

There are a couple of threads comparing this: http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...77#post6339877

http://forums.steroid.com/showthread...st-IM-to-Sub-Q

[pjbandit]

Ok, keep one thing in mind, we are all different so what works for me, or kel for that matter, is what works for us...it may not work for you.

Monday AM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week) and 250 iu HCG
Wednesday AM: 250 iu HCG
Thursday PM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week)
Friday AM: 250 iu HCG
Every Day: 50 mg oral DHEA and 50 mg of oral Pregnenolone both micronized and 2.5 mg of Selegiline.

With this protocol I no longer need an AI as E2 is very stable in the upper 20's.

For IM injections I use a 27gG 1 1/4" needle in a 1cc syringe (BD LurLock)
For SQ injections I use a 30G 5/16" insulin pin.

Any reason why you do hcg 3 times a week as opposed to twice?

[steroid.com 1]

Any reason why you do hcg 3 times a week as opposed to twice?

HCG is best at lower doses more frequently.

Higher doses of HCG can/may increase intratesticular E2 which an AI is largely ineffective in controlling.

[steroid.com 1]

Crisler on SQ Testosterone injections.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n98LOFQwUGA

Contrary to popular belief this injection methodology has been around for many years now...he even admits it.

[booku]

Crisler on SQ Testosterone injections.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n98LOFQwUGA

Contrary to popular belief this injection methodology has been around for many years now...he even admits it.

Just curious why you decide to alternate Sub-Q and IM each week? And have you ever done one or the other by itself and then blood work confirmed they produced similar T levels?

[steroid.com 1]

Just curious why you decide to alternate Sub-Q and IM each week? And have you ever done one or the other by itself and then blood work confirmed they produced similar T levels?

I like the varying serum levels and absorption rates both injection protocols provide...mimics the zig zaw serum pattern we had were in our 20's.

[fit2bOld]

Good thread here wanted to bump this up.


Pretty much the same here test on Sun am Wed pm. Hcg 200 iu 3xwk but in my case hypersesitive to E2.

[clarkster]

GD- How long have you been on TRT? Were you lucky enough to start with a Dr that knew about TRT and best way to go about it?

[steroid.com 1]

GD- How long have you been on TRT? Were you lucky enough to start with a Dr that knew about TRT and best way to go about it?

Almost 4 years, and yes, my Physician is a specialist in TRT for men and is Harvard trained where most of this started with the likes of Dr. Morgentaler et al.

[junk2222yard]

Ok, keep one thing in mind, we are all different so what works for me, or kel for that matter, is what works for us...it may not work for you.

Monday AM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week) and 250 iu HCG
Wednesday AM: 250 iu HCG
Thursday PM: 60 mg Test Cyp (IM or SQ I mix it up week over week)
Friday AM: 250 iu HCG
Every Day: 50 mg oral DHEA and 50 mg of oral Pregnenolone both micronized and 2.5 mg of Selegiline.

With this protocol I no longer need an AI as E2 is very stable in the upper 20's.

For IM injections I use a 27gG 1 1/4" needle in a 1cc syringe (BD LurLock)
For SQ injections I use a 30G 5/16" insulin pin.

Hey gd,
I seem to recall you also take Zinc (I think it is in a cream from a compounder?) and I know for sure you do the tadalafil 2x a day for 10mg total... can you list any other items you take so we can get the complete picture? You probably take a multivitamin, and a large dose of Vitamin D, too, no?

It really helps to see details from a vet who is dialed in. And to see just how expansive this effort is , beyond the Big Three (Test, AI and hCG). Thanks!

[booku]

Hey gd,
I seem to recall you also take Zinc (I think it is in a cream from a compounder?) and I know for sure you do the tadalafil 2x a day for 10mg total... can you list any other items you take so we can get the complete picture? You probably take a multivitamin, and a large dose of Vitamin D, too, no?

It really helps to see details from a vet who is dialed in. And to see just how expansive this effort is , beyond the Big Three (Test, AI and hCG). Thanks!

interested in this as well, a list of everything currently taking. Do you have a link to your blood work gdevine?

[steroid.com 1]

Hey gd,
I seem to recall you also take Zinc (I think it is in a cream from a compounder?) and I know for sure you do the tadalafil 2x a day for 10mg total... can you list any other items you take so we can get the complete picture? You probably take a multivitamin, and a large dose of Vitamin D, too, no?

It really helps to see details from a vet who is dialed in. And to see just how expansive this effort is , beyond the Big Three (Test, AI and hCG). Thanks!

Daily: 5 mg of Tadalafil every 12 hours. 2.5 mg of Selegeline. 2 mg of Doxazosin.

Monday and Thursday: .25 mg of Cabergoline

The Zinc is compounded into the testosterone .

My supplement list is long...

[Jake14]

gdevine,
Why the Selegrline and Dostinex? From Wiki, it looks like Dostinex and Cabergoline are the same thing.

Thanks,

Jake

[GMAC10]

GDevine...

Supplement list long but everyone wants to know it !!!

[pjbandit]

HCG is best at lower doses more frequently.

Higher doses of HCG can/may increase intratesticular E2 which an AI is largely ineffective in controlling.

Hey, yes i understand that. I don't think I was clear. Why do you do 250iu three times a week as opposed to just twice a week. Is there an added benefit. I thought twice a week was enough to keep balls intact?

Btw, great thread. I'm going to try going from IM to sub q every other week.

[booku]

Hey, yes i understand that. I don't think I was clear. Why do you do 250iu three times a week as opposed to just twice a week. Is there an added benefit. I thought twice a week was enough to keep balls intact?

Btw, great thread. I'm going to try going from IM to sub q every other week.

everyone is different as far as amount required. Also injecting less at one time is better for controlling estrogen, and the pharmacokinetics of the drug also probably support injecting SQ 3 times/week. experts chime in?

[steroid.com 1]

gdevine,
Why the Selegrline and Dostinex? From Wiki, it looks like Dostinex and Cabergoline are the same thing.

Thanks,

Jake

Good catch! I meant Doxazosin.

Corrected my post.

Thank you

[steroid.com 1]

everyone is different as far as amount required. Also injecting less at one time is better for controlling estrogen, and the pharmacokinetics of the drug also probably support injecting SQ 3 times/week. experts chime in?

^^^^This.

[kelkel]

Guys, just wanted to chime in that I have not ignored this thread. GD got to it first and has handled it masterfully as expected. So no need for my old butt...

Carry on.

[hugovsilva]

Good catch! I meant Doxazosin.

Corrected my post.

Thank you

GD,

Any special reason for using a broad spectrum alpha blocker like Doxazosin instead of Tamsulosin, an alpha blocker with specific action in the urinary tract?

I leave you with an abstract that compares the action of both:

"Efficacy and safety of tamsulosin hydrochloride compared to
doxazosin in the treatment of Indonesian patients with lower
urinary tract symptoms due to benign prostatic hyperplasia
DJOKO RAHARDJO,
1
DODDY M SOEBADI,
2
SUWANDI SUGANDI,
3
PONCO BIROWO,
1
WAHJOE DJATI
2
AND IRFAN WAHYUDI
3
1
Subdivision of Urology, Department of Surgery University of Indonesia, Cipto Mangunkusumo Hospital,
Jakarta,
2
Department of Urology Airlangga University, Sutomo Hospital, Surabaya, and
3
Subdivision of Urology,
Department of Surgery Padjadjaran University, Hasan Sadikin Hospital, Bandung, Indonesia
Aim: The objective of the study was to compare the efficacy and safety of tamsulosin hydrochloride and doxazosin in patients
with lower urinary tract symptoms (LUTS) due to benign prostatic hyperplasia (BPH).
Methods: The safety and efficacy of tamsulosin (0.2 mg) and doxazosin (2 mg) was determined after once daily administration
for 6 weeks in an open-label, randomized, multicenter study of 101 men with BPH. The International Prostatic Symptom Score
(IPSS), maximal urinary flow rates (Qmax), average urinary flow rates (Qave) and residual urine were determined at baseline and
again at 6 weeks as efficacy parameters. The primary parameters used for safety evaluation were vital signs (blood pressure and
heart rate) and adverse events. The number of patients with a clinically significant response to treatment with tamsulosin or
doxazosin was determined and defined as those with >20% improvement from the baseline Qmax or >20% decrease in total IPSS.
Results: The total IPSS decreased significantly in both the tamsulosin and doxazosin groups compared to baseline. There was a
significant difference in the decrease in total IPSS between two groups. Qmax, Qave and residual urine significantly improved
only in the tamsulosin group. There were no significant differences in systolic blood pressure, diastolic blood pressure or heart
rate profile in the tamsulosin group; however, doxazosin resulted in a significant difference in systolic and diastolic blood pressure.
Tamsulosin was well tolerated; only three patients (6%) in the tamsulosin group reported an adverse event (dizziness) while 11
patients (22%) in the doxazosin group reported an adverse event (dizziness), one of whom withdrew from the study.
Conclusions: Tamsulosin was shown to be more effective than doxazosin in the treatment of LUTS due to BPH."

[dreadnok89]

Hey guys, does SQ mean needle? Sorry for bone head questions

[hugovsilva]

Means subcutaneous which is usually done with a shorter needle when compared to IM (intramuscular) injection.

[Trific]

Hey guys, does SQ mean needle? Sorry for bone head questions

SQ means subcutaneous = giving an injection into fat tissue rather than IM (intramuscular ).

[dreadnok89]

Ahhhhh ok thx alot guys, was getting sub-q mixed up with . pellets. I tried the muscle ones and it bothered too much
Does subq work just as good? That sounds more tolerable to me.

[BuzzardMarinePumper]

I have been reading not posting ! Just wanted to make sure I was subscribed and I will be able to follow I go back for BW 2/28/13 And will see last BW was awful and I had to find an AI on line and HCG also but good to go now ! I am stopping HCG nad cutting back from AI's @ 3 x's .25 mL Liquidex per wk to 1 x per wk of .30. 2 wks out from BW with bad Dr. starting lowtestosterone.com in March got to use up my supply and re do BW with current Dr.

ANy thoughts Kel ; I welcome them !