I am so screwed!

[raym]

So, my initial doc is not a believer in injections, so I've been doing cream for close to 3 months now. Finally got off my butt and started working with someone else. Only problem is that the new doctor wants me off all T for 6 weeks so we can get baseline tests. Hcg only for 6 weeks. I am screwed. I'm holding onto my job by the skin of my teeth and if I regress back into my pre-TRT zombie, I'll be shown the door so fast its not funny!

[Allaaro]

Do you have past bloodwork/tests/referral from other doc? If so there is no reason to stop for a baseline.

If a doc tried doing that to be I wouldn't stand for it....I'd find another doc and use UGL gear if I had to to keep my levels stable in the meantime.

[raym]

Yeah, I've got bloodwork, doctor notes, all that stuff. I'm starting to have a pretty major panic attack over this. Yeah, I'm a whiny b*tch.

[steroid.com 1]

You can't just come off your protocol cold turkey and go back to your "baseline" serum levels...it doesn't work like that.

You are HPTA suppressed and all this will result in is crashing and feeling like absolute shit till you get back to your new protocol.

You're HPTA isn't just going to start on it's own and you're not going to go back to baseline.

This Doctor doesn't have a clue.

Call Lowtestosterone.com and get the right care.

[kelkel]

Yep. LowT.com asap

You're doc's a retard.

[raym]

umm, this IS a lowt.com doctor! I'd drop her immediately, but would have to pay for a year of no service

[kelkel]

Question it then. Something is amiss...

[raym]

I'll bring all my paperwork with me, but she was pretty adamant. Just gotta vent.

[human project]

Yep. LowT.com asap

You're doc's a retard.

You think low t.com could help me?? I'm 24 about to turn 25

[steroid.com 1]

You think low t.com could help me?? I'm 24 about to turn 25

Yes. Start a new thread about your case and we'll jump in; don't want to hijack the thread.

[Rusty11]

umm, this IS a lowt.com doctor! I'd drop her immediately, but would have to pay for a year of no service

Holy crap! I've been reading the lowt.com thread and haven't read about this happening.
Sorry to ask...is there something(a possible reason) you're not telling us? If not, this is a real shame. Good luck.

[Moparman]

umm, this IS a lowt.com doctor! I'd drop her immediately, but would have to pay for a year of no service

Uh oh!!

[raym]

Holy crap! I've been reading the lowt.com thread and haven't read about this happening.
Sorry to ask...is there something(a possible reason) you're not telling us? If not, this is a real shame. Good luck.

No - I've left nothing out. She's got my history, plus the labs that lowtestosterone.com did a few weeks back. She's also got my current treatment regimen. Well, I'm flying in to meet her in person tomorrow and I'm bringing printouts of all my old labs that show T in the 200s back in December and in the low 300s in March.

Well, I guess I'll see what happens and I'll have to follow up with lowt.com folks and see what my options are if I can't make progress with the doc.

Ray

[system admin]

Something does not sound right. Have you called Lowtestosterone.com about this? I have seen a LOT of people come through and I have not heard of ANY doctor with LowTestosterone.com make a patient stop testosterone and make them hop on HCG only UNLESS T levels were VERY high (1400 or more type levels). IF this is the case, no doctor in their right mind would prescribe testosterone without getting a baseline. That would be VERY irresponsible and a doctor could get in a lot of trouble for that and with the FED's hammering down on "steroid clinics" that would not be a very wise thing to do. I really cant think of any other reasons why you would be put on HCG only unless your levels were extremely high and the doctor needed to see where you were naturally. That OR you are a steroid user who is coming to get treatment, but have a very high level of testosterone.

If you dont mind me asking, what were your Free and Total Testosterone levels on your last test? Was it high?

I understand your frustration and your health is very important to us, so any information on this would be really helpful.

Bc

[raym]

I have not called lowtestosterone.com yet. I literally got off the phone with the doctor, and am not seeing her in person till tomorrow. I just looked at my labs, and yes they are high. I have never ever used any steroids or prohormones or anything of the nature. I have full documentation of everything that went on. I guess I'll have to wait and see what the in-person appointment ends up with and go from there, but there is really no way I can take 6 weeks off and retain my sanity.

Ray

[system admin]

Raym, When you say high, how high was your Testosterone levels ? (if you dont mind me asking)

[raym]

total says >1500 for total test (348 - 1197), 43 for free (6.8 - 21.5).

[system admin]

oh wow! Thanks for sharing that Raym. If I am not mistaken, LabCorp does not test for levels higher than 1500 and it appears that your testosterone levels were completely off the charts. I would talk to the doctor about WHY you feel bad with testosterone levels that high. In all honesty, I have never heard of testosterone cream putting T levels to those ranges and I would inquire as to why you feel so bad. You may have other issues that need to be looked at and it would be a good time to try to get to the bottom of it. LowTestosterone.com really does care about the health of the clients and want to be part of the solution, not part of the problem. You wont be obligated to continue the program if you have an underlying health issue and your health is the key factor. Get with the doctor and ask a lot of questions. The doctors are there to help.

Bc

[kelkel]

^^^Outstanding.

[LowT Mike]

Its very simple. No ethical trained TRT doctor is going to treat a TRT transferring patient when they have no idea what there levels of testosterone are. Think about it. Raym your levels are greater than 1500. That means undetectable. Your levels are off the chart and you want to be given more testosterone ? Doctors would lose there DEA license and its proposterous move medically, ethically and legally. The medically accepted protocol is to give HCG for 6 weeks when you have a transferring patient with supraphisiologic undetectable T levels (excessively high) to get a true baseline. Then you can properly stage the patient with TRT and tailor their program. This isnt one size fits all guys. NO HPTA CRASH WITH HCG.

[steroid.com 1]

Someone needs to explain to me how one is going to take a man who is HPTA suppressed, for God knows how long, make him go cold turkey, and get a baseline without some sort of a successful restart protocol even with HCG administration?

His labs will be tanked; LH and FSH will not restart in 6 weeks and depending upon how long he's been suppressed he will most likely need a PCT to get HPTA functioning again...assuming the PCT works.

And if he's administering HCG and does get some production one is not getting a base line. One is getting a serum value based on prodction visa vi HCG...it's not a true base line.

Assuming he's Secondary Hypogonadal, HCG will provide for some production but not near enough from preventing a hormonal crash post administration of exogenous Testosterone ...HPTA is suppressed and that crash will effect much more than just the androgen pathway.

If he's Primary Hypogonadal all the HCG in the world won't do him a hill of beans good.

[Moparman]

Wouldn't the better course be to lower his dosage to get within range?

[crazy mike]

Good luck. In general the doctors don't know much in regard to Test and low test and everything associated. ...crazy mike

[steroid.com 1]

Wouldn't the better course be to lower his dosage to get within range?

^^^^Yes. That's exactly what my TRT Docs does and many other A4M Docs.

At this point the man is already HPTA suppressed and already influenced by exogenous Testosterone so what's the point of crashing a man to get a base line?

Essentially, there is no base line, just tanked serum levels once the man stops his protocol. And if one adds HCG to prevent a crash than we're really not getting a base line; we're getting serum levels of how a man responds to HCG assuming he's Secondary Hypogonadal.

Adjusting dosages and getting a man back to healthy normal levels should be the goal.

[AD]

No - I've left nothing out. She's got my history, plus the labs that lowtestosterone.com did a few weeks back. She's also got my current treatment regimen. Well, I'm flying in to meet her in person tomorrow and I'm bringing printouts of all my old labs that show T in the 200s back in December and in the low 300s in March.

Well, I guess I'll see what happens and I'll have to follow up with lowt.com folks and see what my options are if I can't make progress with the doc.

Ray

Hi ray.
You said your total test was 300s in march? Was that this yr or last yr? How did it jump to >1500? No way thats from your androgel . Crazy as it may sound, you really dont want a test-secreting tumor in your body. If they stop your trt and your levels crash, it might actually be good news. You can then restart at a more suitable dosage.

[Metalject]

One thing I don't understand about this thread or what seems like the obvious question is how on earth can your test levels be this high on testosterone gel for a few months? That's pretty remarkable and borderline unheard of unless your jumping in a bathtub of it every day. Creams/gels have around a 10% absorption rate if that and that's if you're a fantastic responder to cream and most aren't and even then a level above 1500 is ridiculously high and not normal at all.

Maybe I'm wrong but I don't see how any doctor that gave a crap about keeping their license to practice could give a testosterone prescription to someone like this without examining some things and taking a few steps prior.

[Metalject]

Hi ray.
You said your total test was 300s in march? Was that this yr or last yr? How did it jump to >1500? No way thats from your androgel. Crazy as it may sound, you really dont want a test-secreting tumor in your body. If they stop your trt and your levels crash, it might actually be good news. You can then restart at a more suitable dosage.

You beat me to it...I like your response better than mine. Here's a cookie, lol!

[raym]

Hi ray.
You said your total test was 300s in march? Was that this yr or last yr? How did it jump to >1500? No way thats from your androgel. Crazy as it may sound, you really dont want a test-secreting tumor in your body. If they stop your trt and your levels crash, it might actually be good news. You can then restart at a more suitable dosage.

My total T was 230 December of last year. My doc put me on 4 clicks of 10% compounded cream the end of January. I was applying to my upper arms. Testing in march of this year had me in the low 300s. He had me apply an additional two clicks per day high up on the inner thigh. He said it would absorb better there, plus some would get on my scrotum and help even more.

So my current protocol is 6 clicks (1.5 ml) per day of 100mg/ml cream. I also started Adex 1/4 mg EOD since my E2 was high. No other medications at all, though I do take fish oil, multi vitamin and the usual stuff.

I have no idea why my total t is so high- I still feel like crap!

[LowT Mike]

Let me explain more so there is no confusion. I agree most with what you guys are saying. I am A4m board certified. Not crashing or going cold turkey or suppressing HPTA. HCG keeps HPTA going in secondary hypo. Generally speaking there is no "crash" so to speak. T levels do decline within a couple weeks in most "thats the purpose" and there is a minor "sag" in symptoms during this time, However the patient total is retested ASAP and put on TRT as soon as we can get a measurable level. Having a measurable level is a must before you give any amount of exogenous T. The HCG protocol is "up to 6 weeks" for the SH patient. After 6 weeks and levels are still high. Then patients clearly dosent need T. For the primary patient the option to titrate dose down and get a total done as soon as possible. Primary guys clearly are not given HCG. You cant squeeze blood out of a turnip. RAYM im sure will tell you all about his mulitple options his doctor will give him today at his consultation. The laws have changed. Clinics are under the microscope and you simply cannot give a man more testosterone when they have off the chart undetectable levels even if you are giving a lower dose. You need a measurable documented level first. This is our physicians policy and DEA is looking for any excuse to go after these clinics.

[bullshark99]

Something is not adding up on this one, 1500+ on gel???? Must concur 100% with GD, shouldnt the goal be to bring the patient within normal range?? From a common sense standpoint it would seem that a very lose dose injection for the next 4-6 weeks would be the most logical solution, then adjust from there. Unless I am completly in the dark, HcG will only give some artifical or even arbritrary serum level reading, failing to see what the point of this is. Clarification on this would be greatly appreciated.

[bullshark99]

Thanks for the response LowT, posted too soon!

[kelkel]

Any chance of his supraphysiologic test being flawed? I would think a re-test may be in order prior to putting him through this.

[LowT Mike]

raym one thing to watch out for is if you rub the cream close to the olecranonon the elbow or AC joint you can get supraabsorption via bursas sac and levels can be sky high. Another reason could be cross-contamination during the blood draw. You doctor should advise you of multiple options. please let us know how it goes.

[steroid.com 1]

Let me explain more so there is no confusion. I agree most with what you guys are saying. I am A4m board certified. Not crashing or going cold turkey or suppressing HPTA. HCG keeps HPTA going in secondary hypo. Generally speaking there is no "crash" so to speak. T levels do decline within a couple weeks in most "thats the purpose" and there is a minor "sag" in symptoms during this time, However the patient total is retested ASAP and put on TRT as soon as we can get a measurable level. Having a measurable level is a must before you give any amount of exogenous T. The HCG protocol is "up to 6 weeks" for the SH patient. After 6 weeks and levels are still high. Then patients clearly dosent need T. For the primary patient the option to titrate dose down and get a total done as soon as possible. Primary guys clearly are not given HCG. You cant squeeze blood out of a turnip. RAYM im sure will tell you all about his mulitple options his doctor will give him today at his consultation. The laws have changed. Clinics are under the microscope and you simply cannot give a man more testosterone when they have off the chart undetectable levels even if you are giving a lower dose. You need a measurable documented level first. This is our policy and DEA is looking for any excuse to go after these clinics.

For that reasons I understand and it makes sense, Mike.

[steroid.com 1]

Any chance of his supraphysiologic test being flawed? I would think a re-test may be in order prior to putting him through this.

^^^^That or with the increased dosage and new application site with the increased dosage he's now over-responding.

[steroid.com 1]

I wonder what his DHT levels are at this level???

[raym]

Let me explain more so there is no confusion. I agree most with what you guys are saying. I am A4m board certified. Not crashing or going cold turkey or suppressing HPTA. HCG keeps HPTA going in secondary hypo. Generally speaking there is no "crash" so to speak. T levels do decline within a couple weeks in most "thats the purpose" and there is a minor "sag" in symptoms during this time, However the patient total is retested ASAP and put on TRT as soon as we can get a measurable level. Having a measurable level is a must before you give any amount of exogenous T. The HCG protocol is "up to 6 weeks" for the SH patient. After 6 weeks and levels are still high. Then patients clearly dosent need T. For the primary patient the option to titrate dose down and get a total done as soon as possible. Primary guys clearly are not given HCG. You cant squeeze blood out of a turnip. RAYM im sure will tell you all about his mulitple options his doctor will give him today at his consultation. The laws have changed. Clinics are under the microscope and you simply cannot give a man more testosterone when they have off the chart undetectable levels even if you are giving a lower dose. You need a measurable documented level first. This is our physicians policy and DEA is looking for any excuse to go after these clinics.

Wow - thanks for the great explanation. The last thing I want to do is get anyone in trouble with the law. Anyways, correct again. The Doctor discussed a couple of different options, and I think we are on the right track. I've got some homework to do and we'll play it by ear until we get to the bottom of this.

Thanks!

[system admin]

Very glad to see you were taking care of sir! Keep us posted please

Bc

[Rusty11]

Any chance of his supraphysiologic test being flawed? I would think a re-test may be in order prior to putting him through this.

Most definiely a possibility. I'm on a gel and had a level come back at 4400. Retest showed 440. So, a zero was added somehow. However, I did have a legitimate t level of 1200 with testim + hcg . So, who knows. But, a re-test should be the first order of business.

[human project]

raym one thing to watch out for is if you rub the cream close to the olecranonon the elbow or AC joint you can get supraabsorption via bursas sac and levels can be sky high. Another reason could be cross-contamination during the blood draw. You doctor should advise you of multiple options. please let us know how it goes.

So wouldn't making levels sky high be a good thing