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Thread: When does one pass from HRT dose to performance dose

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    tebby is offline Junior Member
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    When does one pass from HRT dose to performance dose

    I know this could be patient specific, Dr preference, supplement used(quality) etc etc but assuming a normal healthy man with acceptable or slightly low natural test levels, good lipid and blood work, have you found that it is in the 400mg/wk(test) range? or is it just all over the board with so many moving parts. In addition if one augments with joint relief supplements(or even strength inducing supplements) does that then move them off of HRT classification.



    thx

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    Trt is ideal when you are in the top quartile of the acceptable range for total test and free test. All of your other numbers from bloodwork should be in the normal range. So it is very individual specific. What has me "dialed in" may have your estrogen, rbc, hematocrit too high. There is no magic answer here, all dependent on consistent bloodwork and tweaking until dialed in.

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    Times Roman's Avatar
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    The highest amount of test I've heard men taking and still calling it a "replacement therapy" is 200mg/week. Anything more and I say bullshit and call it the beginning of a cycle.

    Mate, you have to understand that what I may take could be different than what you take. The only way to know for sure is to start at about 100mg/week and then check your test levels in a few months.

    Also keep an eye on your hematocrit, your RBC, your lipids, your estradiol, and you blood pressure and resting heart rate. All these are subject to change/increase once you start on TRT.

    TRT is a balancing act, trying to get the most benefit out of your dose, and at the same time, the least amount of side effects.

    What I usually tell people is that with TRT, since the rest of your life, that "less is more", in other words, take the least amount that provides you the greatest good.

    And for me, that is 70mg/week.

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    As Times said, everyone is different. He makes out good with 70mg per week, Kel is on 60mg subQ 2x per week and has a TT in the 900's. For me 150mg per week had me around 312 only 9 days post injection. I currently reside in the 800 range on 200mg weekly. So I'm not sure where you could draw the line between HRT and a cycle dosage wise, but would rather say that I believe once you break the 1000-1100 mark is where I would draw that line. So for some they could hit the borderline cycle point anywhere between 120-300mg dosage depending on the individual and how their body metabolizes the hormone.
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    Times Roman's Avatar
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    btw, at 70mg/week, Im at 730 total test.

    ...not too shabby!

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    Low shbg Times? Curious?
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    Dpyle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman
    btw, at 70mg/week, Im at 730 total test.

    ...not too shabby!
    That's awesome Times! If I could pull that off it would be great, and a lot easier on the wallet as well, not that it's much right now any way.

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    testytim is offline Associate Member
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    I am on 20mgs e3ds total t was 720 and on 25mgs e3ds 770 shbg was at 33 normal i believe. All before and on injection day.. And 120 mgs of zinc to control E2 at 17 i backed off to 100 mgs of zinc..

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    Times Roman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Low shbg Times? Curious?
    unfortunately, never been checked. once I get a jay oh bee, then I'll go to private md labs and get a full panel.

    ...it would be about time!

    (my endo agreed to check my estradiol, but I had to suggest it first)

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    Everyone is different but I would say above 200mgs of test a week. I've crossed tht line before and my previous Dr. callled it anti-aging. Gotta love tht term. New doc has me at 100mgs a week.

    -Heat

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spartans09 View Post
    Trt is ideal when you are in the top quartile of the acceptable range for total test and free test. All of your other numbers from bloodwork should be in the normal range. So it is very individual specific. What has me "dialed in" may have your estrogen, rbc, hematocrit too high. There is no magic answer here, all dependent on consistent bloodwork and tweaking until dialed in.
    ^^^ I couldn't have said it better!

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    tebby is offline Junior Member
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    THanks
    I agree....with the 200 thing
    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    The highest amount of test I've heard men taking and still calling it a "replacement therapy" is 200mg/week. Anything more and I say bullshit and call it the beginning of a cycle.

    Mate, you have to understand that what I may take could be different than what you take. The only way to know for sure is to start at about 100mg/week and then check your test levels in a few months.

    Also keep an eye on your hematocrit, your RBC, your lipids, your estradiol, and you blood pressure and resting heart rate. All these are subject to change/increase once you start on TRT.

    TRT is a balancing act, trying to get the most benefit out of your dose, and at the same time, the least amount of side effects.

    What I usually tell people is that with TRT, since the rest of your life, that "less is more", in other words, take the least amount that provides you the greatest good.

    And for me, that is 70mg/week.

  13. #13
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    I'm 36y/o and I'm one of those that has to take 200mg/week to reach 900-953 range.
    All this is based of bloodwork of course, but any less then 200mg/week and I start
    to feel like crap.

    One thing that I do hate about having to take 200mg/week is that without an AI
    my E2 will go up to 70.

    It would be nice not having to take an AI.. I'm hoping by getting my bodyfat down
    to the single digits it will allow me to cut back on the AI in the future

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    It depends me I was at 260 and with 200mg a week I'm at 1200
    My brother was at 185 and 200 mg yielded 700 now he's at 400 mg a week and he's at 900 it just depends

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    If someone needs 400mg per week to reach a 900 T level there are other issues present. Either medical related or an extreme hyper-metabolizer.
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    tebby is offline Junior Member
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dpyle View Post
    As Times said, everyone is different. He makes out good with 70mg per week, Kel is on 60mg subQ 2x per week and has a TT in the 900's. For me 150mg per week had me around 312 only 9 days post injection. I currently reside in the 800 range on 200mg weekly. So I'm not sure where you could draw the line between HRT and a cycle dosage wise, but would rather say that I believe once you break the 1000-1100 mark is where I would draw that line. So for some they could hit the borderline cycle point anywhere between 120-300mg dosage depending on the individual and how their body metabolizes the hormone.

    Helpful...thanks
    I will steer using the TT results and adjust

  17. #17
    tebby is offline Junior Member
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    Nice on the wallett too....
    It will probably take me 700mg a week to hit 800TT. I will have to refi the house to hang in there

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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    btw, at 70mg/week, Im at 730 total test.

    ...not too shabby!
    Nice on the wallett too.....

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    lvs
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    Quote Originally Posted by Times Roman View Post
    The highest amount of test I've heard men taking and still calling it a "replacement therapy" is 200mg/week. Anything more and I say bullshit and call it the beginning of a cycle.
    Based on my numbers I might tend to disagree with you. Perhaps I am one that hyper-metabolizes. This are recent numbers based on 200mg/week, taking 1mg of anastrozole. Endo is bumping anatrozole to 2mg/week split after seeing the results.

    ESTRADIOL, ULTRASENSITIVE LC/MS/MS 42 < OR = 29 pg/mL
    ESTRONE, LC/MS/MS 35 < OR = 68 pg/mL
    ESTRIOL, LC/MS/MS, SERUM <0.10 ng/mL

    ALBUMIN,SERUM 4.5 3.6-5.1 g/dL
    SEX HORMONE BINDING GLOBULIN 20 10-50 nmol/L
    TESTOSTERONE ,BIOAVAILABLE 196.0 110.0-575.0 ng/dL
    TESTOSTERONE, FREE 95.3 46.0-224.0 pg/mL
    TESTOSTERONE, TOTAL, LC/MS/MS 482 250-1100 ng/dL

  20. #20
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    Iv's when was your shot relative to your BW?
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    lvs
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Iv's when was your shot relative to your BW?
    1-week. BW done on the day of the pin but prior.

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    Times Roman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    If someone needs 400mg per week to reach a 900 T level there are other issues present. Either medical related or an extreme hyper-metabolizer.
    ...or they didn't time the blood test correctly. One should have their blood drawn midway between injections. It may very well have been the 400mg/week guy had his blood drawn right before his next pin?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    If someone needs 400mg per week to reach a 900 T level there are other issues present. Either medical related or an extreme hyper-metabolizer.
    During my last Doc visit he said he has a patient like this from the South West. The guy has to use more than (2) 10ml bottles of Test Cyp per month to remain in the 800-900's. Pretty amazing...

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    bigt405 is offline Junior Member
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    My last bloodwork taken the day before my next injection had me at 427. This with 100 ml once a week. I never even thought of the importance of timing the blood work in the middle of injections, but i will do that next time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by sirmike View Post
    It depends me I was at 260 and with 200mg a week I'm at 1200
    My brother was at 185 and 200 mg yielded 700 now he's at 400 mg a week and he's at 900 it just depends
    sirmike,

    How large is your brother?

    Curious because you are 325lb with a high body fat percentage.
    The heavier one is, the larger their volume of blood. Thus, I believe, the larger a dose is needed to reach a set concentration of testosterone .
    Also, the higher the bodyfat, the more testosterone gets aromatized into estrogen.
    Last edited by The Deadlifting Dog; 05-31-2013 at 04:05 PM.

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    So reduce your dose a bit and inject every 3.5 to 4 days. More consistent serum levels and lower E levels as well = less adex. Win-Win.
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    ^^^ agreed

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    if "I" go by numbers alone...

    then I need around 150-200mg of testosterone per week when I inject once a week.

    but if I inject twice a week, I magically "need" about half that amount.

    what is the magic? well, it's simply monitoring levels before they have plummeted (like many people do).

    if you want to take it to a little more extreme, how much testosterone do you think you might "need" if you injected testosterone once every 2 weeks? Well, perhaps some men might need 500mg a shot... to make sure their trough level is in a good range. but what about every day prior?

    my point is, I see many people who up the dose when in reality they could (and arguably should) merely split the dose. moreover, once you do split the dose, you may find out your need is far less than first thought.

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    Quote Originally Posted by APIs

    During my last Doc visit he said he has a patient like this from the South West. The guy has to use more than (2) 10ml bottles of Test Cyp per month to remain in the 800-900's. Pretty amazing...
    Or they are skipping some injections before blood work so they can get more test? You see guys here all the time trying to beat the system.

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    I have been on 200mg/wk split into two injections for over two years and not required an AI. My levels are 1000 - 1100 so I could come down a little but I have felt great (I was a mess with levels in the 200s) so I don't want to mess with it.

    I am jealous of the guys that use half my dose because of the money savings.

    I would consider any dose that puts us much higher than 1000 to be excessive and inappropriate for long term use. In addition, the gains would be minor compared to a proper TRT dose and not worth the added risk, higher RBC, blood pressure, increased AI management, etc.
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    Java Man's Avatar
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    Anything that puts your test above what would be considered normal range on the lab results youre working with imo has crossed the line into darkness. That dosage varies from individual to individual.
    Last edited by Java Man; 06-01-2013 at 12:55 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Java Man View Post
    Anything that puts your test above what would be considered normal range on the lab results youre working with imo has crossed the line into darkness. That dosage varies from individual to individual.
    Agreed and agreed. I sometimes forget not everyone is dealing with the same range. I am just used to seeing my results from the same lab every time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas View Post
    Agreed and agreed. I sometimes forget not everyone is dealing with the same range. I am just used to seeing my results from the same lab every time.
    Selfish! j/k lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas View Post
    Agreed and agreed. I sometimes forget not everyone is dealing with the same range. I am just used to seeing my results from the same lab every time.
    P.S. I like your choice of gym shirt

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    Quote Originally Posted by Java Man View Post
    P.S. I like your choice of gym shirt
    I was here first, you need to change yours.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas View Post
    I was here first, you need to change yours.
    I'm older in RL!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Java Man View Post
    I'm older in RL!
    Are you sure? Mid 40s here.

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    Your profile says 42. I'm 42. This keeps getting weirder. Lol.

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    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyVegas View Post
    Or they are skipping some injections before blood work so they can get more test? You see guys here all the time trying to beat the system.
    That's what I said. But my Doc stated he had the man's local GP administer the doses & bloodwork over a two month period to get an accurate baseline. The guy just burns through the stuff like it's water...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Java Man
    Your profile says 42. I'm 42. This keeps getting weirder. Lol.
    I win!

    I don't know how I ended putting the wrong year in there when I made my profile (probably for more anonymity) but I am older than 42.

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