An E2 Control Question

[2Sox]

I'm sort of stuck on how to proceed with anastrozole dosing. I was taking .25mg Anastrozole E3D along with 100mg DIM, 4mg Copper, 50mg zinc

My blood work showed that my E2 level was <2. I immediately stopped and continued dosing the above supplements. Supplements alone didn't do too much because five weeks later my E2 level was at 41 (range ,<OR=29). (See below for labs.) I wasn't surprised because my libido had been decreasing as were the quality of erections in general and of night and morning erections.

I immediately dosed 0.25mg adex and 3.5 days later dosed 0.2mg - figuring to front load to get my level down and then continue with a more conservative dose. I don't want to repeat the mistake in my first paragraph above. So this is where I need some advice.

My most recent labs:
Total T: 1307 Range 250-1100
Free T: 359.4 Range 35.0-155.0
SHBG: 31 Range 22-77
Estradiol: as discussed above 41 Range <OR=29

Any suggestions on how I can proceed from here? I'm thinking 0.15- 0.2mg adex every 3.5 days. What do you think?

[kelkel]

Simply lower your T dose a little bit and eliminate the adex all together. Your T numbers are great and dropping them a little will have no impact on how you feel.

[2Sox]

Simply lower your T dose a little bit and eliminate the adex all together. Your T numbers are great and dropping them a little will have no impact on how you feel.

Thanks. Sounds like a plan. On the month before I got the above lab results, this was my protocol:

30mg Test Cyp, EOD
250iu hCg 3x a week
No AI
Supplements: Mentioned above

I already started reducing my Test dose to 28mg EOD. Would you advise I drop the Test down even further? Or just lower the frequency of hCG? or a combination of both?

xcriader,
What you describe seems to be happening to me. Hard to get that AI right. Thanks for your input.

[xcraider37]

Simply lower your T dose a little bit and eliminate the adex all together. Your T numbers are great and dropping them a little will have no impact on how you feel.

I agree with kelkel drop the test down a bit, I never could find a good protocol with adex, I either went too high without it or it drops me too low, so I just decided to drop my t dose. As usual with these drugs less is more.

[FRDave]

Your currently taking 120mg per week? If so, I would drop it down to 100mg weekly split in two doses of 50mg every 3.5 days. Keep HCG the same.

You may be able to drop it down even further to 80mg weekly, but start with 100mg and get blood work in 4-6 weeks.

[2Sox]

Your currently taking 120mg per week? If so, I would drop it down to 100mg weekly split in two doses of 50mg every 3.5 days. Keep HCG the same.

You may be able to drop it down even further to 80mg weekly, but start with 100mg and get blood work in 4-6 weeks.

It may seem like I was taking 120mg/week but if you average it over 14 days, it was only more like 105mg/week. At 28mg EOD, it averages to 98mg/week. I really don't know if this would actually make a difference at all because it's such a small reduction - like 7mg/week.

I know what you mean about 50mg twice a week. Lots of guys do it this way. I did this when I first came off gels and started shots but I didn't feel much improvement at all. Maybe I didn't give it enough time. I don't know. But then I went right to EOD.

I'm curious; do you feel pretty level with this frequency or do you feel a slight dip before your next shot? I do EOD, SubQ because I just love the steady feeling with no peaks and valleys.

[FRDave]

Gotcha... Maybe try the twice per week protocol again, giving it a bit more time. That or drop down more so your around 80mg weekly.

I myself inject Tues night and Sat morning with HCG the day before (both test and HCG every 3.5 days) and feel no drops in energy, strength, libido, etc. I use to inject HCG every Mon, Wed & Fri but felt better after switching to twice per week.

[jomamma007]

your free test is over twice the range. You could cut your dosage by half and still probably have near top of the free test range if not higher( which is what really matters).
But without the ai your free test will drop so only one way to tell for sure.
70-80mgs per week would be a good start based on your bloods.
20mgs EoD, since you seem to like pinning on that schedule.

[zerodarkthirty]

2Sox, I've been cutting down on my HCG this week and I can already tell the AI isn't having to work as hard. I NEVER had a good experience with Adex and certainly crashed my E2 several times with it. Exemestane (Aromasin ) has been much kinder to me. Even with that, I'm now splitting my dose of Aromasin and the efficacy seems just as good as when I was taking entire pills.

HCG really spikes my E2. I'm not 100% dialed in yet, after a year of TRT, but I'm getting closer. I think.

[2Sox]

These are very good suggestions. Offering me some insight I hadn't thought about. Thanks, guys.

I'm going to give this some more thought, but I'm leaning toward reducing my T to 24mg EOD. That will get me to an average of 84mg/week. What do you think?

The remaining question is this: What action would you suggest I take right away to get that E2 level down? AI? If so, what dose, how long? Or just leave it be?

[jomamma007]

These are very good suggestions. Offering me some insight I hadn't thought about. Thanks, guys.

I'm going to give this some more thought, but I'm leaning toward reducing my T to 24mg EOD. That will get me to an average of 84mg/week. What do you think?

The remaining question is this: What action would you suggest I take right away to get that E2 level down? AI? If so, what dose, how long? Or just leave it be?

Just lower your dosage and it will drop relatively quickly, within a week probably.

[kelkel]

These are very good suggestions. Offering me some insight I hadn't thought about. Thanks, guys.

I'm going to give this some more thought, but I'm leaning toward reducing my T to 24mg EOD. That will get me to an average of 84mg/week. What do you think?

The remaining question is this: What action would you suggest I take right away to get that E2 level down? AI? If so, what dose, how long? Or just leave it be?

Make your change. You are frequent with your BW so you'll know soon enough how you're doing. Don't know if you really need to worry about the E at this point. You'll be fine and it will drop on it's own. If it bothers you take a very small amount of adex for a week to facilitate the drop. Won't take much.

[2Sox]

Make your change. You are frequent with your BW so you'll know soon enough how you're doing. Don't know if you really need to worry about the E at this point. You'll be fine and it will drop on it's own. If it bothers you take a very small amount of adex for a week to facilitate the drop. Won't take much.

Kel,
Thanks for the reassurance. Makes me feel more at ease.

It seems us older guys aramotize more readily (On gels I was taking .25mg adex E3.5D to keep my E2 under control for months. I was consistently in the 20s.) So I have been concerned.

So I might take your suggestion and take a couple more AI doses while I reduce my T dose. It would be nice to live life without an AI.

[2Sox]

FRDave,

In the post #7 above your referred to feeling better after switching to hCG twice per week. Can you describe exactly how you felt? How did things change? What did you notice? I'm curious because I started with twice a week and then increased to 3 times and didn't notice any change at all. The only thing I could THINK was happening is that my E2 increased. But that's all guessing.

Zero,
I'd like to know more about your experience with both Adex and Exemestane. How would you describe Stane is "kinder" to you, as you say? I also understand they work differently. I'd be grateful if someone would give some details about them. Thanks?

[LFH40]

Kelkel, is adex something you can take here and there if needed? I don't wanna hijack this thread, but studying the ones on E2. If you saw the thread I created a few hours ago I go into it there.
2Sox, good luck with your E2 management.

[kelkel]

I always take my Ipod. It's that or watch the cooking channel that they always have on.

[2Sox]

I always take my Ipod. It's that or watch the cooking channel that they always have on.

I would have been lucky if they had The Cooking Channel. They had no channel! Anyway, I feel great. Much lighter. Went out and did three miles right after. I learned there's a trick to it: Hydrate, hydrate, hydrate.

[phaedo]

Hey 2Sox, I've been following your thread and it's piqued by interest since I'm also lowering my dose to eradicate any Anastrozole use. I haven't found any happy medium using an AI and keeping optimal E2 levels. Are you switching to once a week hCG injection?

[2Sox]

Hey 2Sox, I've been following your thread and it's piqued by interest since I'm also lowering my dose to eradicate any Anastrozole use. I haven't found any happy medium using an AI and keeping optimal E2 levels. Are you switching to once a week hCG injection?

I'm not decreasing my dose of hCG - as yet. (Anyway, I would not dose hCG less that twice a week.) Need to see blood work first which would show the result of my decrease in T dose. A step at a time.

I'm going to take the advice of Kel and others above: Lower the T dose and see what the results are. If the change is not substantial, I can then consider cutting down my 250iu to twice a week OR cutting down my T dose some more. But this would all depend on the labs and on the advice from the people on the forum when I get my lab results.

[2Sox]

Regarding DIM.

In Jimmy's link:

Ancillary Reference Guide

....he suggests that DIM should be dosed at 300mg/day - BUT that's for a 500mg cycle. I've heard conflicting things about dosage; some say 100mg/day; others 200mg/day.

My question: Is this a trial and error thing - in a way like TRT - start low, wait and see, then titrate up if necessary? What is the experience of others?

I had been at 100 mg/day and I feel as if I'm going into the territory of rising E2 at this point - low libido, poor night and morning erections. Waiting for BW results of last week. Maybe I'll hear today or tomorrow a.m.

In the meantime, I started increasing my dose to 200mg/day just this morning.
- Is this advisable?
- AND how long does DIM take to get to work to do its job?

[kelkel]

Remember guys you can do the exact same protocol over multiple BW's and get different results from each one. Who really knows why! If you feel good, don't over-think it would be my advice.

[2Sox]

Remember guys you can do the exact same protocol over multiple BW's and get different results from each one. Who really knows why! If you feel good, don't over-think it would be my advice.

And it's good advice.

[kelkel]

It required daily dosing so it's not really that prudent for us. 2Sox you're not gonna need anything if you lower your dose. If lowering your dose slightly doesn't cut it for you (and you have lot's of wiggle room to lower it more) then simply eliminate one HCG injection as well. You'll be fine.

[2Sox]

It required daily dosing so it's not really that prudent for us. 2Sox you're not gonna need anything if you lower your dose. If lowering your dose slightly doesn't cut it for you (and you have lot's of wiggle room to lower it more) then simply eliminate one HCG injection as well. You'll be fine.

Thanks, Kel. I appreciate you comments.

[Ccdiesel]

It required daily dosing so it's not really that prudent for us. 2Sox you're not gonna need anything if you lower your dose. If lowering your dose slightly doesn't cut it for you (and you have lot's of wiggle room to lower it more) then simply eliminate one HCG injection as well. You'll be fine.

I seem to have had similar issues with HCG dosing and rising E2 symptoms because of it. So if 2Sox doses down to 250iu twice a week is that going to have an effect on fertility and atrophy?

[kelkel]

I seem to have had similar issues with HCG dosing and rising E2 symptoms because of it. So if 2Sox doses down to 250iu twice a week is that going to have an effect on fertility and atrophy?

I would doubt he'd notice a difference in size and I know he could care less about fertility.

[2Sox]

I would doubt he'd notice a difference in size and I know he could care less about fertility.

Got that right!

Cc,
If you are asking about yourself, I don't think you'd have anything to worry about. Later on when you plan for a family, you could just experiment with dosages to see what works. You can also talk with your doctor about hMG to help conceive.

[Ccdiesel]

Got that right!

Cc,
If you are asking about yourself, I don't think you'd have anything to worry about. Later on when you plan for a family, you could just experiment with dosages to see what works. You can also talk with your doctor about hMG to help conceive.

Haha I was asking for you really. Guess I had that wrong ha. From what I read yes hmg would be the way to go if that were the priority now.

[64509chvl]

I was curious on this aswell...didn't get much luck with the thread I started on it.

[kelkel]

200 would be appropriate for TRT levels. About a 12hr half life from memory. Not saying I have a good memory. What.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2602858/

http://www.dimfaq.com/site/articles.htm

[2Sox]

200 would be appropriate for TRT levels. About a 12hr half life from memory. Not saying I have a good memory. What.

Single-Dose Pharmacokinetics and Tolerability of Absorption-Enhanced 3, 3′-Diindolylmethane in Healthy Subjects

Diindolylmethane FAQs - "All About DIM"

Thanks, Kel.

[kelkel]

Your FT is great indicating you could actually dose down slightly once again if so inclined to help with your E. If the added DIM doesn't work consider this.
Know that elevated progesterone can/will elevate estrogen. Not sure I'd worry about the progesterone unless it's consistently high. May be due to HCG injection timing. Not really sure.

[2Sox]

Your FT is great indicating you could actually dose down slightly once again if so inclined to help with your E. If the added DIM doesn't work consider this.
Know that elevated progesterone can/will elevate estrogen. Not sure I'd worry about the progesterone unless it's consistently high. May be due to HCG injection timing. Not really sure.

Took 350mg DIM today. Will continue with 300mg daily. But I instinctively feel I'll probably need more. I'd like to get my E2 down to about 20.

I do hCG on off days of T Cyp. What thoughts do you have of doing more frequent, low dose hCG - like 125iu EOD? Do you think this would help with the E2 and progesterone levels?

[kelkel]

How you feel at 20 is subjective. I run anymore around 24 with no AI, and it took work to get up to that as I run low. When I bumped it up to the low 30's my libido was much better.

First off, I'd combine the hcg with the cyp and cut your injections down. Cutting it back may help but remember a lot of hcg's E2 conversion is intratesticular and not affected by AI's. A thought would be to skip your HCG for a handful of days prior to your next BW and then test. See the difference then you can evaluate it better. If I recall correctly you pull BW very frequently, correct?

Still think a decent option is another small titration down based on your FT level.

[2Sox]

How you feel at 20 is subjective. I run anymore around 24 with no AI, and it took work to get up to that as I run low. When I bumped it up to the low 30's my libido was much better.

First off, I'd combine the hcg with the cyp and cut your injections down. Cutting it back may help but remember a lot of hcg's E2 conversion is intratesticular and not affected by AI's. A thought would be to skip your HCG for a handful of days prior to your next BW and then test. See the difference then you can evaluate it better. If I recall correctly you pull BW very frequently, correct?

Still think a decent option is another small titration down based on your FT level.

Curious. How would it benefit me to inject hCG the same day as the Cyp?

Another thing, I seem to remember some controversy about whether hCG's E2 conversion is only intratesticular. My thought is that if the testes is making more T that ends up in the bloodstream, you're gonna have more serum E2 along with it. That's the reason I cut back on my hCG to begin with.

I'm also reluctant to titrate down my Cyp much lower as I feel I do better on the higher end of the scale. This is subjective, of course. If my E2 was lower and my libido improved, I'd be very satisfied with lower T levels. I've got to bring that E2 down.

Yes. BW every 4 weeks or so.

[2Sox]

Curious. How would it benefit me to inject hCG the same day as the Cyp?

Another thing, I seem to remember some controversy about whether hCG's E2 conversion is only intratesticular. My thought is that if the testes is making more T that ends up in the bloodstream, you're gonna have more serum E2 along with it. That's the reason I cut back on my hCG to begin with.

I'm also reluctant to titrate down my Cyp much lower as I feel I do better on the higher end of the scale. This is subjective, of course. If my E2 was lower and my libido improved, I'd be very satisfied with lower T levels. I've got to bring that E2 down.

Yes. BW every 4 weeks or so.

Kel,
Any comment on this?

[kelkel]

Curious. How would it benefit me to inject hCG the same day as the Cyp?

Simply less injections was my only point.

Another thing, I seem to remember some controversy about whether hCG's E2 conversion is only intratesticular. My thought is that if the testes is making more T that ends up in the bloodstream, you're gonna have more serum E2 along with it. That's the reason I cut back on my hCG to begin with.

Note that I said "a lot" not all of it.

I'm also reluctant to titrate down my Cyp much lower as I feel I do better on the higher end of the scale. This is subjective, of course. If my E2 was lower and my libido improved, I'd be very satisfied with lower T levels. I've got to bring that E2 down.

Yes. BW every 4 weeks or so.

Nothing wrong with the course you're taking 2Sox. It it works, it works. You just have wiggle room with your T and it may end up being your "Occams Razor."
Remember it's still just a snapshot in time and nothing is that amiss!

[2Sox]

Nothing wrong with the course you're taking 2Sox. It it works, it works. You just have wiggle room with your T and it may end up being your "Occams Razor."
Remember it's still just a snapshot in time and nothing is that amiss!

Wow. Occam's Razor. I had to look that one up! Interesting.

Thanks, Kel.

[kelkel]

Wow. Occam's Razor. I had to look that one up! Interesting.

Thanks, Kel.

I don't believe that, knowing what you did for a living....

[Machdiesel]

2sox those are some high numbers on a low dose. I'd be super interested to see your numbers if you only did 50mg twice a week and tested morning on injection. Maybe there's something to more frequent injections? Kel I'd love to hear your Input or anyone who has experience working with others. For me 60mg twice a week puts me at 680 morning of injection and E2 at 51. In a perfect world with unlimited BW Possabilktes I'd be trying 40mg 3x a week to see how it differs from 60mg 2x a week. Pretty pissed about the NJ laws and BW