An E2 Control Question

**2Sox** · 03-21-2014, 02:23 PM

I just got my lab results back a few minutes ago and I wanted to post them for you. I'm very eager to get your feedback.

The protocol I was on when blood was taken:

28mg Test Cyp EOD
250iu hCG 2x week
DIM 200mg, Zinc 50mg, Copper 4mg - all daily
NO AI!

I've been fighting a real hard case of bronchitis and I'm certain this has skewed the results somewhat.

Total T: 950 Range: 250-1100 ng/dL
Free T: 181.5 Range: 35.0-155.0 pg/mL
SHBG: 38 Range: 22-77 nmol/L
Estradiol Sensitive: 39 Range: <OR= 29 pg/mL
Progesterone: 1.8 Range: <1.4 ng/mL

I want to thank Kel and others who encouraged me to change my protocol with the goal of E2 control without an AI. I'm not there yet, but I'm actually feeling good. The only symptom of high E2 I can notice is that I don't have that libidinous "itch" - if you know what I mean. (And this has always been very conspicuous when my E2 is high.)

Two questions:
1. I have changed only one thing in my protocol (beginning the very next day after the above blood draw). I increased my DIM to 250 mg/day (from 200mg). But based on this lab report - and how I feel as described above - I am inclined to up that dose to 300mg/day. I'd be grateful for your comments on this.

2. What would be causing my progesterone to be running high? (It was high on lab report before this one too.) Thanks.

**kelkel** · 03-21-2014, 04:04 PM

Your FT is great indicating you could actually dose down slightly once again if so inclined to help with your E. If the added DIM doesn't work consider this.
Know that elevated progesterone can/will elevate estrogen. Not sure I'd worry about the progesterone unless it's consistently high. May be due to HCG injection timing. Not really sure.

**booku** · 03-21-2014, 05:22 PM

stop taking an inferior product

Aromasin (exemestane) is superior and does not effect IGF-1 levels and lipids, it will not crash E2, there is no rebound if you come off of it

http://press.endocrine.org/doi/pdf/1...jc.2003-031279

**2Sox** · 03-21-2014, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Your FT is great indicating you could actually dose down slightly once again if so inclined to help with your E. If the added DIM doesn't work consider this.
Know that elevated progesterone can/will elevate estrogen. Not sure I'd worry about the progesterone unless it's consistently high. May be due to HCG injection timing. Not really sure.

Took 350mg DIM today. Will continue with 300mg daily. But I instinctively feel I'll probably need more. I'd like to get my E2 down to about 20.

I do hCG on off days of T Cyp. What thoughts do you have of doing more frequent, low dose hCG - like 125iu EOD? Do you think this would help with the E2 and progesterone levels?

**kelkel** · 03-21-2014, 05:42 PM

How you feel at 20 is subjective. I run anymore around 24 with no AI, and it took work to get up to that as I run low. When I bumped it up to the low 30's my libido was much better.

First off, I'd combine the hcg with the cyp and cut your injections down. Cutting it back may help but remember a lot of hcg's E2 conversion is intratesticular and not affected by AI's. A thought would be to skip your HCG for a handful of days prior to your next BW and then test. See the difference then you can evaluate it better. If I recall correctly you pull BW very frequently, correct?

Still think a decent option is another small titration down based on your FT level.

**2Sox** · 03-21-2014, 06:32 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

How you feel at 20 is subjective. I run anymore around 24 with no AI, and it took work to get up to that as I run low. When I bumped it up to the low 30's my libido was much better.

First off, I'd combine the hcg with the cyp and cut your injections down. Cutting it back may help but remember a lot of hcg's E2 conversion is intratesticular and not affected by AI's. A thought would be to skip your HCG for a handful of days prior to your next BW and then test. See the difference then you can evaluate it better. If I recall correctly you pull BW very frequently, correct?

Still think a decent option is another small titration down based on your FT level.

Curious. How would it benefit me to inject hCG the same day as the Cyp?

Another thing, I seem to remember some controversy about whether hCG's E2 conversion is only intratesticular. My thought is that if the testes is making more T that ends up in the bloodstream, you're gonna have more serum E2 along with it. That's the reason I cut back on my hCG to begin with.

I'm also reluctant to titrate down my Cyp much lower as I feel I do better on the higher end of the scale. This is subjective, of course. If my E2 was lower and my libido improved, I'd be very satisfied with lower T levels. I've got to bring that E2 down.

Yes. BW every 4 weeks or so.

**Machdiesel** · 03-21-2014, 06:53 PM

2sox those are some high numbers on a low dose. I'd be super interested to see your numbers if you only did 50mg twice a week and tested morning on injection. Maybe there's something to more frequent injections? Kel I'd love to hear your Input or anyone who has experience working with others. For me 60mg twice a week puts me at 680 morning of injection and E2 at 51. In a perfect world with unlimited BW Possabilktes I'd be trying 40mg 3x a week to see how it differs from 60mg 2x a week. Pretty pissed about the NJ laws and BW

**2Sox** · 03-21-2014, 07:08 PM

Originally Posted by Machdiesel

2sox those are some high numbers on a low dose. I'd be super interested to see your numbers if you only did 50mg twice a week and tested morning on injection. Maybe there's something to more frequent injections? Kel I'd love to hear your Input or anyone who has experience working with others. For me 60mg twice a week puts me at 680 morning of injection and E2 at 51. In a perfect world with unlimited BW Possabilktes I'd be trying 40mg 3x a week to see how it differs from 60mg 2x a week. Pretty pissed about the NJ laws and BW

Actually, if you break it down over 14 days, I'm only averaging 98mg/week. If you think this is high, when I was doing 112mg/week I was 359 Free T with a range of 35-155!

As I said, I've been fighting this low grade bronchial infection for almost 2 months and I'm sure it has taken a toll on my numbers. If I was illness free, I'm sure I would have come in even higher.

**kelkel** · 03-21-2014, 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

Actually, if you break it down over 14 days, I'm only averaging 98mg/week. If you think this is high, when I was doing 112mg/week I was 359 Free T with a range of 35-155!

As I said, I've been fighting this low grade bronchial infection for almost 2 months and I'm sure it has taken a toll on my numbers. If I was illness free, I'm sure I would have come in even higher.

I know. Your body just utilizes it very well!

**2Sox** · 03-21-2014, 07:22 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

Curious. How would it benefit me to inject hCG the same day as the Cyp?

Another thing, I seem to remember some controversy about whether hCG's E2 conversion is only intratesticular. My thought is that if the testes is making more T that ends up in the bloodstream, you're gonna have more serum E2 along with it. That's the reason I cut back on my hCG to begin with.

I'm also reluctant to titrate down my Cyp much lower as I feel I do better on the higher end of the scale. This is subjective, of course. If my E2 was lower and my libido improved, I'd be very satisfied with lower T levels. I've got to bring that E2 down.

Yes. BW every 4 weeks or so.

Kel,
Any comment on this?

**kelkel** · 03-21-2014, 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

Curious. How would it benefit me to inject hCG the same day as the Cyp?

Simply less injections was my only point.

Another thing, I seem to remember some controversy about whether hCG's E2 conversion is only intratesticular. My thought is that if the testes is making more T that ends up in the bloodstream, you're gonna have more serum E2 along with it. That's the reason I cut back on my hCG to begin with.

Note that I said "a lot" not all of it.

I'm also reluctant to titrate down my Cyp much lower as I feel I do better on the higher end of the scale. This is subjective, of course. If my E2 was lower and my libido improved, I'd be very satisfied with lower T levels. I've got to bring that E2 down.

Yes. BW every 4 weeks or so.

Nothing wrong with the course you're taking 2Sox. It it works, it works. You just have wiggle room with your T and it may end up being your "Occams Razor."
Remember it's still just a snapshot in time and nothing is that amiss!

**2Sox** · 03-21-2014, 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

Nothing wrong with the course you're taking 2Sox. It it works, it works. You just have wiggle room with your T and it may end up being your "Occams Razor."
Remember it's still just a snapshot in time and nothing is that amiss!

Wow. Occam's Razor. I had to look that one up! Interesting.

Thanks, Kel.

**kelkel** · 03-21-2014, 08:04 PM

Originally Posted by 2Sox

Wow. Occam's Razor. I had to look that one up! Interesting.

Thanks, Kel.

I don't believe that, knowing what you did for a living....

**2Sox** · 03-21-2014, 08:24 PM

Originally Posted by kelkel

I don't believe that, knowing what you did for a living....

No, really. This was a first for me. I'm reading the whole story here:

HowStuffWorks "How Occam\'s Razor Works"

**SEOINAGE** · 03-21-2014, 11:08 PM

I'm one of those that feels better mid 30s over mid 20s with the E2. Something that you might realize could be possible for you too. I'd say you are being given good advice, but it doesn't hurt to experience some things for yourself at this point. Simply because where you are at really isn't that bad, and possibly a better balance than some get to, including myself.

**2Sox** · 03-22-2014, 04:28 PM

Originally Posted by SEOINAGE

I'm one of those that feels better mid 30s over mid 20s with the E2. Something that you might realize could be possible for you too. I'd say you are being given good advice, but it doesn't hurt to experience some things for yourself at this point. Simply because where you are at really isn't that bad, and possibly a better balance than some get to, including myself.

Good counsel, Seonage. But there's nothing wrong with going for perfection.