My botched phlebotomy

[suprarob]

Well after much debating and going back and forth with my dr today he called and said come in get a phlebotomy. I was excited because my religious beliefs require that we not give or accept blood. You see my RBC's are high,I have had 2 episodes of blurry vision in one eye with headaches,fatigue and a few other symptoms for Polycythemia.

I'm 54 and been on Test for 2 1/2 years. For the last 6 months my blood count has been creeping up and was at 54% last test. My general practice dr that prescribes my testosterone was against a phlebotomy so he sent me to an oncologist/hematoligist. Well after much testing he said your counts not that bad. Then he calls my office and says just stop taking the test. I was livid. So I called back and left message that we agreed on a phlebotomy and I wasn't taking no for an answer. Said I am not trying to play dr but everything I have researched is those who give blood their % rates drop quickly. They also do it on a regular basis. Well he called back and said ok come in today. So I did. But things took a bad turn. How so?

The nurse said are you squeamish of afraid of large needles? I said no. She got started and we were chatting fine. After about a half pint she said for some reason its going slow. Can you pump your fist while we continue? I said sure. Well she kind of walked around for a bit and everything seemed fine. But then out of nowhere I started feeling dizzy,broke out in a sweat. I raised my hand to another nurse behind the desk and said nurse,something is wrong. Then the last thing I remember saying was "God remember me please". I must have known something was really wrong. Apparently I passed out. But this was no ordinary "pass out". Why?

Well I awoke to all the nurses mumbling saying his blood pressure and vital signs dropped. As I came out of the groggy state with the dr over me I had tubes in my nose and my feet elevated. I was nauseas and could barely speak. I felt extremely weak and could barely talk. I said "I must have fell asleep". She said no you passed out. She said first time anyone had ever passed out during a phlebotomy. I thought to myself that was strange. I asked why she wasn't with me when I was passing out. She said she was going to get some saline solution. She said she was worried as they had a stretcher there and a defibrillator. I was thinking this was odd but didn't have my wits about me. They kept me there for 2 hours until I could walk. They kept saying call someone to drive me home. I insisted I was ok but looking back I wasn't. Really I see things in a whole different light now. Why?


Well I remember looking at the blood bag. It looked like it was going to explode. My take is she got distracted and forgot about me. The blood was too much of a loss and they lost me for a bit. I can't prove this. I did ask her why the bag was so stretched,she said some saline went into the bag. Find that odd. To top it off she said the dr wants me to come back and do it again next week. I'm sitting here thinking I don't want to ever do that again but I probably will. I asked her how much saline she put in. She said a little more than half the blood we took out. I said isn't that counterproductive to lowering my volume? She said no. I said then why does the dr want me to take more out next week when he was against it in the first place? She said ask the dr next week.

Ok now you know the whole story. I am just now getting to feel almost normal again so I wrote this. What's your take on what I consider a botched phlebotomy? Am I reading too much into it?

[Lifted1]

shit man! seems like you just cant win. i dont have any experience with a phlebotomy so you're gonna need a pro to chime in, but your experience doesnt sound normal. iirc a pint is the most you can let out at once without issue.

you must have gave them a real scare if they broke out the defibrillator lol

[< <Samson> >]

Sounds like a high loss of blood covered up by someone who is doing half ass work


No way to know 100% though. But, IMO when giving blood you should be under constant close attention for cases like this. You feel dizzy and like you're starting to knock out - stop & stop fast.


Just my .02


My woman did mine last time, I'm like "u sit here & watch"

[Beethoven]

I've had several therapeutics, one last week and never experienced that. Even when I used to donate I've never experienced that. I do it at the Red Cross and they are constantly around you. The bag can't take a whole lot more than a pint so it's probably not the amount. Some people can pass out during donations or be light headed and nauseous, I've seen it but you sound like you were out there. At 54% you were high. I usually have one draw a week for three weeks when I'm over 50%. My only sides have been some pvc's afterward, or a little light headed doing squats after the last of three draws.

[Bonaparte]

There is no way they accidentally took too much blood. Phlebotomy is a slow process. Even if they took more than a pint (which is all the bag will hold), most don't show significant hemodynamic compromise until they've lost several times that amount (though factors like age, cardiovascular health, and meds will play into how well you can compensate for blood loss).
You probably just got upset about the idea of losing blood, freaked yourself out, and fainted from psychogenic shock. This seems very likely, since you weren't progressively symptomatic, but fainted out of nowhere.
And what's this about saline? Were they adding it to the blood bag, or putting it back into you?

[suprarob]

There is no way they accidentally took too much blood. Phlebotomy is a slow process. Even if they took more than a pint, most don't show significant hemodynamic compromise (passing out and all that jazz) until they've lost 1/3rd of their blood (about 2 liters for most of us).
You probably just got upset about the idea of losing blood, freaked yourself out, and fainted from psychogenic shock.
And what's this about saline? Were they adding it to the blood bag, or putting it back into you?

I don't get nervous about needles. Been through a lot of surgeries in my lifetime. I don't over react. I don't know what happened but I do know that it wasn't right. I can only imagine what would have happened if I hadn't gotten the other nurses attention. As far as the saline I am perplexed about that too. The dr was dripping it to replace my volume. So her reaction seemed like an excuse rather than a reason when I asked why it was so swelled. Regardless,reading up on this online she should have never left my side in case any complication arose.

[GirlyGymRat]

i've donated a lot of blood (red cross) and I never had personal nurse the entire time. I've gotten dizzy, but mostly because I hadn't eaten enough b4 gave blood. sounds scary. do you think there is a lawsuit?

I don't get nervous about needles. Been through a lot of surgeries in my lifetime. I don't over react. I don't know what happened but I do know that it wasn't right. I can only imagine what would have happened if I hadn't gotten the other nurses attention. As far as the saline I am perplexed about that too. The dr was dripping it to replace my volume. So her reaction seemed like an excuse rather than a reason when I asked why it was so swelled. Regardless,reading up on this online she should have never left my side in case any complication arose.

[suprarob]

i've donated a lot of blood (red cross) and I never had personal nurse the entire time. I've gotten dizzy, but mostly because I hadn't eaten enough b4 gave blood. sounds scary. do you think there is a lawsuit?

I ate clean today and had already consumed a half gallon of water. I am precise about my health. I was 3/4's way through the draw and was feeling very good. Then out of nowhere something went wrong. Can't put my finger on it exactly. Therefore I made this post to reach an educated decision. I thank everyone for their opinions so far and welcome more.

[Bonaparte]

I don't get nervous about needles. Been through a lot of surgeries in my lifetime. I don't over react. I don't know what happened but I do know that it wasn't right. I can only imagine what would have happened if I hadn't gotten the other nurses attention. As far as the saline I am perplexed about that too. The dr was dripping it to replace my volume. So her reaction seemed like an excuse rather than a reason when I asked why it was so swelled. Regardless,reading up on this online she should have never left my side in case any complication arose.

They never stay by you the entire time. It's a very safe process, and they generally don't have the staff needed for constant 1-on-1 supervision.
If they were replacing the blood lost, then you had even less reason to faint (since your blood volume/pressure was not changed, and you have more than enough RBCs for oxygenation).
Like it or not, this was all in your head. Your anxiety at the thought of losing too much blood or whatever you choose to call it triggered a vagal response, which temporarily dropped your heart rate and blood pressure.

About 3% of the population will faint at the sight of (significant amounts of) their own blood through this mechanism. You experienced something similar, even though you're fine with needles and surgeries (you know, because you're not awake when they cut you open). Next time, just don't look at the bag.

[Times Roman]

Well after much debating and going back and forth with my dr today he called and said come in get a phlebotomy. I was excited because my religious beliefs require that we not give or accept blood. You see my RBC's are high,I have had 2 episodes of blurry vision in one eye with headaches,fatigue and a few other symptoms for Polycythemia.

I'm 54 and been on Test for 2 1/2 years. For the last 6 months my blood count has been creeping up and was at 54% last test. My general practice dr that prescribes my testosterone was against a phlebotomy so he sent me to an oncologist/hematoligist. Well after much testing he said your counts not that bad. Then he calls my office and says just stop taking the test. I was livid. So I called back and left message that we agreed on a phlebotomy and I wasn't taking no for an answer. Said I am not trying to play dr but everything I have researched is those who give blood their % rates drop quickly. They also do it on a regular basis. Well he called back and said ok come in today. So I did. But things took a bad turn. How so?

The nurse said are you squeamish of afraid of large needles? I said no. She got started and we were chatting fine. After about a half pint she said for some reason its going slow. Can you pump your fist while we continue? I said sure. Well she kind of walked around for a bit and everything seemed fine. But then out of nowhere I started feeling dizzy,broke out in a sweat. I raised my hand to another nurse behind the desk and said nurse,something is wrong. Then the last thing I remember saying was "God remember me please". I must have known something was really wrong. Apparently I passed out. But this was no ordinary "pass out". Why?

Well I awoke to all the nurses mumbling saying his blood pressure and vital signs dropped. As I came out of the groggy state with the dr over me I had tubes in my nose and my feet elevated. I was nauseas and could barely speak. I felt extremely weak and could barely talk. I said "I must have fell asleep". She said no you passed out. She said first time anyone had ever passed out during a phlebotomy. I thought to myself that was strange. I asked why she wasn't with me when I was passing out. She said she was going to get some saline solution. She said she was worried as they had a stretcher there and a defibrillator. I was thinking this was odd but didn't have my wits about me. They kept me there for 2 hours until I could walk. They kept saying call someone to drive me home. I insisted I was ok but looking back I wasn't. Really I see things in a whole different light now. Why?


Well I remember looking at the blood bag. It looked like it was going to explode. My take is she got distracted and forgot about me. The blood was too much of a loss and they lost me for a bit. I can't prove this. I did ask her why the bag was so stretched,she said some saline went into the bag. Find that odd. To top it off she said the dr wants me to come back and do it again next week. I'm sitting here thinking I don't want to ever do that again but I probably will. I asked her how much saline she put in. She said a little more than half the blood we took out. I said isn't that counterproductive to lowering my volume? She said no. I said then why does the dr want me to take more out next week when he was against it in the first place? She said ask the dr next week.

Ok now you know the whole story. I am just now getting to feel almost normal again so I wrote this. What's your take on what I consider a botched phlebotomy? Am I reading too much into it?

I'm going to tell you a little something mate you're not going to like.

You just passed out.

Why?

You can safely donate 2 pints all at once without traumatic impact to the body.

How do I know from personal experience?

I would donate 1 liter of blood at a time in Afghanistan every three months. Then no water, no sugar cookie, just get up and hike down the marble steps with no hand rail.

1 liter is more or less about 2 pints. You gave a pint and a little more at most.

I've donated a liter on two separate occasions. No big deal.

You passed out. No big deal. Don't look for a scape goat, as this one is all on you mate.

Now, the other issue.

If your RBC is high, that means you need to drop your TRT dose. You need to fine tune this bad boy. It can take a year before you can find the right mix between maximizing your testosterone and minimizing your side effects. I'm at 70 (really 80) mg/week. What are you taking????

[Times Roman]

i've donated a lot of blood (red cross) and I never had personal nurse the entire time. I've gotten dizzy, but mostly because I hadn't eaten enough b4 gave blood. sounds scary. do you think there is a lawsuit?

don't encourage him Girly..........

[j2048b]

Man i thought i was the only one this had happened to!!! Same thing happened to me, i went in for a routine phlem, passed out and all hell broke loose after that and that was in august! I still am not the same, that same weekend after i passed out, i started having panic attacks, and my body started cramping up, well fast forward 3 days later 1st day back to work, what do u know i damn near pass out again! Get hauled away in an ambulance and am told again its panic attacks!! Got a Hefty dose of potassium, a few iv's and am told im under hydrated??? How when i just spent a day in the hospital 4 days ago with iv's in me and all weekend super hydrating?? And again i still feel like crap and its now September??? Went to a cardiologist and had to wear a machine all weekend long which blew goats! And everything has come back fine, now im seeing a hematologist and soon an endo.... WTF??? And im bairly even on trt now because my hematocrit goes super high super fast.... Like from a 48-53 quickly....

Hope u feel better op, i know im still not the same and not sure even how to get back to that place of feeling normal again! Hell everytime i try to lift, my legs cramp, like im dehydrated! Wtf?

[lovbyts]

They knocked you guys out so they could do some secret experiment on you guys. They either put something in you or took something out. I would say look for scars but they probably did it with nano technology through your blood and just didnt want you to see them doing it.

At some point they will turn it on and you will become their personal robot or bomb???

Just an idea.

[almostgone]

There is no way they accidentally took too much blood. Phlebotomy is a slow process. Even if they took more than a pint (which is all the bag will hold), most don't show significant hemodynamic compromise until they've lost several times that amount (though factors like age, cardiovascular health, and meds will play into how well you can compensate for blood loss).
You probably just got upset about the idea of losing blood, freaked yourself out, and fainted from psychogenic shock. This seems very likely, since you weren't progressively symptomatic, but fainted out of nowhere.
And what's this about saline? Were they adding it to the blood bag, or putting it back into you?

Maybe he did a double donation? Seems like they do a return line with those from what I recall..... usually once I get settled in the chair and I just kick back while they do their thing. Got a feeling you're absolutely correct about the fainting. I've seen quite a few people that just plain flake out at the sight of blood....usually the biggest injury is to their pride.

[suprarob]

She said she was going to get the saline. So no saline was being introduced at the time I passed out. Look if I was squeamish or passed out due to frailty the last thing I would do is post anything here. I would tuck my tail and keep some semblance of my pride in tact. I know my body. I know my limitations. I know that something went awry. I am a very perceptive and astute businessman. I have no plans to sue. I wrote this to help others and to find balance through the ordeal. Maybe I am delusional but my common sense denies it. It keeps telling me that an unforeseen issue arose. Therefore the post to try and ascertain the possible cause.

[almostgone]

I don't think anyone is trying to make fun of your situation. It's just that I( and I'm sure others) have seen people flake.out @ the sight of blood. It does happen.
The only reason I can think of that they would give you saline is if your BP was already running low....I'm sure there are other reasons.
Did you do a regular or double donation?

[lovbyts]

I don't think anyone is trying to make fun of your situation. It's just that I( and I'm sure others) have seen people flake.out @ the sight of blood. It does happen.
The only reason I can think of that they would give you saline is if your BP was already running low....I'm sure there are other reasons.
Did you do a regular or double donation?

[almostgone]

After rereading your post, I'm taking it that you were just in for a therapeutic phlebotomy. I honestly think you just flaked at the sight of blood. Some people do I the same thing at the sight of needles/syringes. Since your beliefs prevented you from donating blood in the past, you would have never way of knowing this would be your reaction.
Really, it happens.

...and not all high RBC incidents are caused by TRT. I was @ 52% (perhaps53%) packed cell volume BEFORE starring TRT. Therefore, I drink lots of water and donate blood @ every opportunity.

[bullshark99]

Sup,
I'm not embarrassed to say it, years ago I had a blood test and was starring at the tube as it was filling with blood. After about 7-10 seconds, got dizzy and went right to the ground. To this day every blood test I do, I do not watch and I'm fine. As Bonaparte indicates roughly 3% of people react this way. Couple that with the pressure you put on yourself because of religious beliefs, that would be my guess...

[lovbyts]

I hate needles believe it or not. I never look when they are taking blood and dont like to see certain things on TV but am a fan of B horror films. I have had a LOT of surgeries and never even been a little nervous.

That being said, the body/mind is a funny thing. When my 1st wife was in labor and they were giving her a spinal block (Ive have 3 epidural injections) and I knew exactly what was involved even though I was not looking directly I could see/feel exactly what they were doing and my head started to buzz and I got dizzy. I immediately went and sat down before I fell down.

[suprarob]

There is a remote possibility that it was psychosomatic but my logic coupled with the fact that she got distracted leads me to believe otherwise.

[lovbyts]

There is a remote possibility that it was psychosomatic but my logic coupled with the fact that she got distracted leads me to believe otherwise.

That could have been the trigger even. I really could not believe I got light headed after all the things I have done and seen but just that one time it happened. I just take it as another experience and move on.

[Mr.BB]

Its stupid when religion gets in the way of peoples health IMO

[suprarob]

Its stupid when religion gets in the way of peoples health IMO

Thats the beauty of America,everyone is entitled to their opinion.

[lovbyts]

Thats the beauty of America,everyone is entitled to their opinion.

Except that is going away quickly also. You are no longer allowed to feel or especially say you dont agree with being gay/lesbian, you are not allowed to prefer one race over another or to profile anyone although profile means they fit a certain description. If you are Caucasian you are automatically considered to be racist. I could go on and on but you probably get the point.

You can have your opinions but more and more you have to keep them to yourself.

[Times Roman]

There is a remote possibility that it was psychosomatic but my logic coupled with the fact that she got distracted leads me to believe otherwise.

a nurse will never just sit there by your side. she has other things to do than just sit there and keep you company. when you donate blood, it can be as high as one nurse for a half a dozen or so donars. maybe more.

you had an emotional response and you can not rationalize it away. It just happens. Accept it. Nothing sinister happened.

And you have not acknowledged the possibility of having to reduce your TRT dose.....?

[Beethoven]

Except that is going away quickly also. You are no longer allowed to feel or especially say you dont agree with being gay/lesbian, you are not allowed to prefer one race over another or to profile anyone although profile means they fit a certain description. If you are Caucasian you are automatically considered to be racist. I could go on and on but you probably get the point.

You can have your opinions but more and more you have to keep them to yourself.

I agree. Political correctness has run amuck.

[Juced_porkchop]

I agree. Political correctness has run amuck.

I think all sides should be able to voice their opinions.. as long as its in a respectful way and what you would expect back. I am not goignt o ge tintot he religion thing.. i belive there is alot of truth in many religions and man/greed and reach for control and power has destroyed or twisted most truths in these "books" made by man..
Allz i know is ima good persona and try to help others NOT because I fear god.. but because the label "GOD is an energy in all of us and to be good out of fear of a guy "god" is not true goodness.. Respect for all life and helping people when you can is the way to live, otherwise whats the point of living .. IMO
I was brought up roman catholic and believe 99% of it to be BS. not Jesus and his now lost or twisted expressions of spiritual advancement/enlightenment, he was a very important spiritual leader and teacher, but all the other crap they tossed in and taken out to sit a certain view piss's me the heck off.. then people fight over it... sad... religion is a scape goat to many and not seen for what it should be
wow im just gonna stop now lol.. i barely started venting lol

And I think there is nothing wrong with being gay.. I see us as evolved enough that two souls/minds/people can connect on a deep level that gender is not the value.. we just get into relation ship to reproduce? Id liek to think we are passed that and it means alot more than kids.. : /
Im not gay by any means, just thinking of a women give me a hard one.. but I am completely comfortable around gay people and got o gay clubs with my GF and its some of the best times because there seems to be less begots and people are more open and friendly.
I didnt always see it that way when younger, but i was just homophobic and close minded. much bigger issues in the world today then what you got between your legs IMO...

[Lifted1]

I hate needles believe it or not. I never look when they are taking blood and dont like to see certain things on TV but am a fan of B horror films. I have had a LOT of surgeries and never even been a little nervous.

That being said, the body/mind is a funny thing. When my 1st wife was in labor and they were giving her a spinal block (Ive have 3 epidural injections) and I knew exactly what was involved even though I was not looking directly I could see/feel exactly what they were doing and my head started to buzz and I got dizzy. I immediately went and sat down before I fell down.

shit that happened to me with our fist kid! when i watched the anesthesiologist push that big ass needle in my wifes spine i got light headed and had to sit down. i ghosted up too cause the nurse asked if i was ok. i also got a bit light headed when i watched the nurse take 5-6 large vials of my blood a few years ago, so now i just dont watch...i can watch the needle going in , but when i start leaking out its game over lol

[Mr.BB]

Allz i know is ima good persona and try to help others NOT because I fear god.. but because the label "GOD is an energy in all of us and to be good out of fear of a guy "god" is not true goodness.. Respect for all life and helping people when you can is the way to live, otherwise whats the point of living .. IMO

Amen

[< <Samson> >]

a nurse will never just sit there by your side. she has other things to do than just sit there and keep you company. when you donate blood, it can be as high as one nurse for a half a dozen or so donars. maybe more.

Welly, well, well


This is why I am damn near 90% self medicated.


I much rather have my GF by my side throughout the whole process. In case shit goes wrong, just stop the fvcking flow.

[suprarob]

Welly, well, well


This is why I am damn near 90% self medicated.


I much rather have my GF by my side throughout the whole process. In case shit goes wrong, just stop the fvcking flow.

Yep. Next time wife will be with me.

[The Noose]

Wow, that sounds like a super strong reaction. I would guess you just fainted as well, but thats just an opinion. If you did just faint, that would obviously, in no way, be a qualifier of your manhood though. Certainly nothing to be ashamed of.

[suprarob]

Reading back on this it is amazing how many can amass an assumption based on their experiences. When at every turn on this forum we are encouraged to listen to our own bodies and that everyone is unique. Tune,tweak and adjust is the cree until their presumption is challenged. Double standard.

[Bonaparte]

Reading back on this it is amazing how many can amass an assumption based on their experiences. When at every turn on this forum we are encouraged to listen to our own bodies and that everyone is unique. Tune,tweak and adjust is the cree until their presumption is challenged. Double standard.

Mine was based on actual medical training and experience. I've never had an issue with blood.

[lovbyts]

Yep. Next time wife will be with me.

I take my 8yr, Oh she just turned 9yr old daughter in when I get blood. She likes to watch. lol Of course when it's her turn I tease her by asking the doctor if I can do it.

[Times Roman]

Reading back on this it is amazing how many can amass an assumption based on their experiences. When at every turn on this forum we are encouraged to listen to our own bodies and that everyone is unique. Tune,tweak and adjust is the cree until their presumption is challenged. Double standard.

personal experience here too. I've donated whole liters before without the faintest hint of dizziness.

Still no comment on lowering your TRT dose?

[suprarob]

personal experience here too. I've donated whole liters before without the faintest hint of dizziness.

Still no comment on lowering your TRT dose?

Different people have different constitutions and different physiques. No "one" experience dictates everyone else. As far as the TRT I cut it in half.

[Times Roman]

Different people have different constitutions and different physiques. No "one" experience dictates everyone else. As far as the TRT I cut it in half.

good for you (on adjusting the trt dose). stating the obvious here, but keep monitoring your levels, and your RBC should drop. it takes time fine tuning, and if a significant drop, you may be able to bump slightly. This could take time. At 70/(80)mg, my RBC is still a little on the high side.

[fit2bOld]

People pass out giving blood all the time.