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Thread: Reconfiguring TRT dose

  1. #1
    Black's Avatar
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    Reconfiguring TRT dose

    Quick backstory, as I have been away for awhile. Been on TRT for about 7 years now. Started out at a clinic, which over prescribed me (300mg a week) and then from there, I modified my protocol based on blood work and sharing info on forums.

    So, I've always wanted to try and lower my test to the lowest therapeutic dose. But I hesitated as I didn't want to risk feeling like crap going too low. So a little over a month ago, I dropped my test down. I also needed to get started on a good AI protocol (I've struggled with getting e2 to a good range. Always been to high or too low).

    So here is what I currently take:
    Test C - 60mg 2x a week
    DIM - 200mg 2x a day
    HCG - 250iu 2x a week

    I have only been taking the DIM for about 2 weeks now. Could tell it is doing something as morning erections started popping back up. However, I am mainly seeing if DIM is effective enough on its own.

    Here are current numbers taken right before next dose:

    Testosterone , serum - 956 (348-1197)
    Testosterone, free - 38.24 (5.00-21.00)
    % Free Testosterone - 4.00. (1.50-4.20)
    Estradiol, sensitive - 39.5. (8.0-35.0)

    I'm not under a prescribing Doctor, so I want to bounce my ideas off everyone.

    Should I try and drop test down further? Say 100mg a week? I know my e2 will go down as well, but probably not enough to avoid an AI.

    Estrogen needs addressed. I read an article that basically was talking about how an AI can help with testosterone conversion after it is taken. But in cases where estrogen has been high for awhile, only a SERM (nolvadex ) will help with that. Like a buildup on receptors. Bad job paraphrasing, but it made sense when I read it. Before retesting, I was taking Arimidex 0.5mg 4x a week without any symptoms of crashing. I still felt like my estrogen was high. I was thinking of adding nolvadex in at 20mg a day for a month? Or would a different protocol be better? Any input appreciated.

    As for AI therapy, I have 1mg tabs of Arimidex. Looking for the best way to dose it. I can definitely split them once, but not sure how they will fare trying to split them into quarters. They are pretty small.

    Thanks everyone!
    Last edited by Black; 03-17-2016 at 10:58 PM.

  2. #2
    almostgone's Avatar
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    I'll let the more knowledgeable guys help you out, Black. Just wanted to give you a quick shout out. Good to see you, man!

    I quarter my anastrozole tabs with a cheap pill splitter.
    There are 3 loves in my life: my wife, my English mastiffs, and my weightlifting....Man, my wife gets really pissed when I get the 3 confused...
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  3. #3
    Mp859's Avatar
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    You could probably just do .5mg arimidex twice a week to start IMO. You are not super high. Unless you would rather lower your test dose.

  4. #4
    Chauffeur is offline Associate Member
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    Estradiol being around the top, or above, the reference range isn't always a bad thing. Many of us feel great with our E2 a little bit on the high side. I know I do.

    You've got some room to drop your dose of testosterone for sure. As you can see your free T is well above the range, so don't focus too much on the total T number. Free T is what matters most...well, secondary to how you feel.

    How do you feel?

    I'd say dropping your dose to 50mg 2x/week is a logical next step. You'll still be getting plenty of testosterone to keep your levels adequate. E2 will also likely come down a bit, but probably nothing crazy.

    I don't think that your estradiol needs to be addressed in an aggressive manner right now. Any amount of Adex is likely going to overkill, you'll probably overshoot your mark even with a small dose. Drop the dose of testosterone and continue with the DIM. Give it a couple of months and reevaluate.
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  5. #5
    SweepTheLegJohnny is offline Junior Member
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    Personally, I'd drop the test dose to 50mgs, two times a week and see if that brings the e2 back into range. You're just on the high end and that, coupled with the DIM should bring it back it into range. Also, switch to sub-q injections if you're not already: they make a world of difference. Taking a zinc supplement would help too, assuming your gut can handle it.

    My e2 levels were just outside of range (much like yours) just using DIM so I know the struggle. Personally, I avoid the AIs at all cost (even aromasin ) because they can be unpredictable.Adex is a tricky one because it hits it's peak plasma concentration in 2 hours but has a 50 hour long half life. Test cyp peaks at 24 hours but it's half-life is 5-7 days. So, timing the adex just right can be difficult. I took .25 mgs, 24 hours after my testosterone injection (pretty standard) and had it crash my e2 hard and and then have it slowly bounce back. So, I'd feel pretty good the day of the injection, crash my e2 the next day, feel like crap, feel "okay" for a few days and then start it all over again. I struggled with it while taking the DIM as well because, again, I could never time it up right and my e2 levels were hopping all over the place. I feel that it's better to just have a lower dose of test in your system without much else (preg and DHEA are nice additions) and keep all of those hormone levels at as steady state as possible.

  6. #6
    Black's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by almostgone View Post
    I'll let the more knowledgeable guys help you out, Black. Just wanted to give you a quick shout out. Good to see you, man!

    I quarter my anastrozole tabs with a cheap pill splitter.
    Hey AG! I already can split the 1mg tabs into halves nicely. I'll give splitting them into quarters a shot if I try and dose 0.25mg. Thanks man!

    Quote Originally Posted by Mp859 View Post
    You could probably just do .5mg arimidex twice a week to start IMO. You are not super high. Unless you would rather lower your test dose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Chauffeur View Post
    Estradiol being around the top, or above, the reference range isn't always a bad thing. Many of us feel great with our E2 a little bit on the high side. I know I do.

    You've got some room to drop your dose of testosterone for sure. As you can see your free T is well above the range, so don't focus too much on the total T number. Free T is what matters most...well, secondary to how you feel.

    How do you feel?

    I'd say dropping your dose to 50mg 2x/week is a logical next step. You'll still be getting plenty of testosterone to keep your levels adequate. E2 will also likely come down a bit, but probably nothing crazy.

    I don't think that your estradiol needs to be addressed in an aggressive manner right now. Any amount of Adex is likely going to overkill, you'll probably overshoot your mark even with a small dose. Drop the dose of testosterone and continue with the DIM. Give it a couple of months and reevaluate.
    Good question. I feel pretty good. Libido isn't as crazy high when I was on 200mg/week of course, but it is still going strong. Erections as well. I am definitely a lot more peaceful. Not that I was aggressive or hostile, I just feel more calm if that makes sense. I do feel like I'm holding water more than usual. And a bit more on the emotional side as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by SweepTheLegJohnny View Post
    Personally, I'd drop the test dose to 50mgs, two times a week and see if that brings the e2 back into range. You're just on the high end and that, coupled with the DIM should bring it back it into range. Also, switch to sub-q injections if you're not already: they make a world of difference. Taking a zinc supplement would help too, assuming your gut can handle it.

    My e2 levels were just outside of range (much like yours) just using DIM so I know the struggle. Personally, I avoid the AIs at all cost (even aromasin) because they can be unpredictable.Adex is a tricky one because it hits it's peak plasma concentration in 2 hours but has a 50 hour long half life. Test cyp peaks at 24 hours but it's half-life is 5-7 days. So, timing the adex just right can be difficult. I took .25 mgs, 24 hours after my testosterone injection (pretty standard) and had it crash my e2 hard and and then have it slowly bounce back. So, I'd feel pretty good the day of the injection, crash my e2 the next day, feel like crap, feel "okay" for a few days and then start it all over again. I struggled with it while taking the DIM as well because, again, I could never time it up right and my e2 levels were hopping all over the place. I feel that it's better to just have a lower dose of test in your system without much else (preg and DHEA are nice additions) and keep all of those hormone levels at as steady state as possible.
    I agree. The best I ever felt on TRT was when I was dosing Test P EOD @ 40mg, subq. I didn't need an AI at all. Sensitive assay came back at 10. I would've continued that, but it was when I was supplying my own test. I go through a doc/insurance now, so test cyp it is. But I had the exact issues with AI dosing as you describe. I would either crash my estrogen or my timing (or something) was off, because I was dosing 0.5mg EOD @ 200mg test a week (split doses) and still had e2 on the higher end.

    When I used to inject subq before, I used insulin syringes. Of course, I wasn't able to change needles, and after stabbing the test vial and then the HCG vial, I'm sure the needle was fairly dull. Plus, I use 3ml syringes right now and my test is 200mg/ml. So dosing 50mg isn't possible (increments of 20mg a tic). With insulin syringes, I was able to dose easier. In addition to only having a 1/2" needle. So what do you use?
    Last edited by Black; 03-18-2016 at 10:00 AM.

  7. #7
    SweepTheLegJohnny is offline Junior Member
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    I use insulin pins for both test and hCG . Yeah, they dull a bit and drawing the test out can be a bit tedious and time consuming for it's worth it. We don't need a script for syringes or pins in this state so getting my hands on insulin supplies is easy. I've had to use 1mL, 25 gauge needles before and they suck for sub-q injections (hurts like hell) but it still works.

    My personal experience with DIM wasn't good either. I used that to control e2 before the adex and I could never get the dosing or the timing right on it.. There are many guys that have had success with the DIM so I'm not suggesting you quit using it but I just hated it.

    Honestly, I'll drop down to an even lower test dose down the road if estrogen becomes an issue. The 160mgs you're on right now would be quite high for me. It may be for you too seeing as your free-test is a bit out of range. My free test was really high when I was having e2 problems and bringing that into ranges brought the e2 down with it. But, it is amazing how many TRT docs out there are pretty insistent on the 200mgs/week. I started my therapy with a doc through LowT and they were great but they popped in on 200mgs straight off the bat and was floored when I told them that I'd rather cut my test dosage in half versus taking any more a-dex or aromasin .

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chauffeur View Post
    Estradiol being around the top, or above, the reference range isn't always a bad thing. Many of us feel great with our E2 a little bit on the high side. I know I do.

    You've got some room to drop your dose of testosterone for sure. As you can see your free T is well above the range, so don't focus too much on the total T number. Free T is what matters most...well, secondary to how you feel.

    How do you feel?

    I'd say dropping your dose to 50mg 2x/week is a logical next step. You'll still be getting plenty of testosterone to keep your levels adequate. E2 will also likely come down a bit, but probably nothing crazy.

    I don't think that your estradiol needs to be addressed in an aggressive manner right now. Any amount of Adex is likely going to overkill, you'll probably overshoot your mark even with a small dose. Drop the dose of testosterone and continue with the DIM. Give it a couple of months and reevaluate.

    Totally agree with this. Good points by Johnny as well.

    Good to see you Black!
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  9. #9
    NEMESIS RR is offline Associate Member
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    You would be surprised how much small drops in test dosage can effect estrogen. With the right insulin needle you can get exact measurements wether it be 50mg or even 55mg.

    As far as adex usage I would strongly discourage using it before dropping test dosage a bit and never starting at .5 mg. .25 mg is plenty to start with at 2x a week.

  10. #10
    Black's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SweepTheLegJohnny View Post
    I use insulin pins for both test and hCG . Yeah, they dull a bit and drawing the test out can be a bit tedious and time consuming for it's worth it. We don't need a script for syringes or pins in this state so getting my hands on insulin supplies is easy. I've had to use 1mL, 25 gauge needles before and they suck for sub-q injections (hurts like hell) but it still works.

    My personal experience with DIM wasn't good either. I used that to control e2 before the adex and I could never get the dosing or the timing right on it.. There are many guys that have had success with the DIM so I'm not suggesting you quit using it but I just hated it.

    Honestly, I'll drop down to an even lower test dose down the road if estrogen becomes an issue. The 160mgs you're on right now would be quite high for me. It may be for you too seeing as your free-test is a bit out of range. My free test was really high when I was having e2 problems and bringing that into ranges brought the e2 down with it. But, it is amazing how many TRT docs out there are pretty insistent on the 200mgs/week. I started my therapy with a doc through LowT and they were great but they popped in on 200mgs straight off the bat and was floored when I told them that I'd rather cut my test dosage in half versus taking any more a-dex or aromasin.
    I think I remember using 27g insulin pins last time I did subq. It wasn't terribly painful, but bigger than the other gauges which made drawing oil a bit easier. I'm gonna place an order for some. I'm getting tired of IM injections anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Totally agree with this. Good points by Johnny as well.

    Good to see you Black!
    Hey Kel! Good to see you as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by NEMESIS RR View Post
    You would be surprised how much small drops in test dosage can effect estrogen. With the right insulin needle you can get exact measurements wether it be 50mg or even 55mg.

    As far as adex usage I would strongly discourage using it before dropping test dosage a bit and never starting at .5 mg. .25 mg is plenty to start with at 2x a week.
    I'll definitely start with a lower dose of 50mg 2x a week and continue to DIM for now. Thanks for the input.

    I appreciate all the responses. Thanks guys.

  11. #11
    Black's Avatar
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    So I'm not sure if I ran bloodwork too soon after dropping test dose. I've been on 50mg 2x a week for a little over a week now. Before that, I dropped from 200mg to 120mg a week. That was about a month ago. Lately, I've been feeling terrible.

    Been feeling depressed, negative, uninterested, etc. Physically, I feel weak and tired. I'm sore for several days after a workout. I can get erections, but libido is down a little bit. That could be due to other issues within sex life.

    I've been feeling this way for awhile now, but it's greatly increased over this last week. My test levels looked great last bloodwork, so I don't know what to think. I'm trying to figure out if it's hormone related or something else. Before I started TRT years ago, I used to be on SSRIs. I thought TRT had taken care of that, but maybe I need to continue that therapy as well.

    I guess my question would be how long does it take to adjust to a dose of test? I was on 120mg a week for about a three weeks to a month before I tested.

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    fireeater49 is offline Associate Member
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    Just my 2 cents, I dropped test cyp dose to 50mg x e3d, hcg x 2 @250iu each, no ai, no dim, clomid 25mg ed (dr just started it, really do not know why, labs are great) and I use tb syringe 25 g 5/8 alternating deltiods each time. Labs consistently run (on trough) tt 950 ish, ft 40ish, e2 20ish, and no complaints at all excepting taking to long to climax. Considering cabergoline maybe to help.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black View Post
    So I'm not sure if I ran bloodwork too soon after dropping test dose. I've been on 50mg 2x a week for a little over a week now. Before that, I dropped from 200mg to 120mg a week. That was about a month ago. Lately, I've been feeling terrible.

    Been feeling depressed, negative, uninterested, etc. Physically, I feel weak and tired. I'm sore for several days after a workout. I can get erections, but libido is down a little bit. That could be due to other issues within sex life.

    I've been feeling this way for awhile now, but it's greatly increased over this last week. My test levels looked great last bloodwork, so I don't know what to think. I'm trying to figure out if it's hormone related or something else. Before I started TRT years ago, I used to be on SSRIs. I thought TRT had taken care of that, but maybe I need to continue that therapy as well.

    I guess my question would be how long does it take to adjust to a dose of test? I was on 120mg a week for about a three weeks to a month before I tested.
    Try and hang in there another month Black and re-test for TT, FT and E2 Sensitive. In-flux hormones aren't always fun.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelkel View Post
    Try and hang in there another month Black and re-test for TT, FT and E2 Sensitive. In-flux hormones aren't always fun.
    That's exactly what I was wondering, if everything was still adjusting. Cause some days are great (usually right after injection) and then some aren't so good. I think it's also a mental adjustment for myself, as I'm used to being on 200mg a week.

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    Remember, even when we weren't on TRT we had good days and bad days....
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