Doesn't seem that low, should I even go down this road?

[bioshocked]

Bioshocked, I've glanced at all of the above and understand where you are coming from. In my teens, 20's, 30's and into my 40's I killed myself in the gym, ate clean, tried different routines/forms of training, diets, etc. yet, never made the gains / saw the results I desired.

I am currently 57. Six months ago I started on TRT - since that time, I've gained 13 pounds of muscle and have dropped from 16% to 13% body fat (this is determined through underwater weighing). My wife of 30 years tells me what I sometimes cannot believe, that is that my physique is the best it's been ever. BTW, I still eat clean, but now take in more calories than I've taken in since I've been a teenager. Oh, and I'm sure I'll be roasted for this one, I absolutely refuse to eliminate my wine, which is about 1 - 2 bottles per night.

I inject .75 mg of T, 2x per week.

This is a life commitment though and one which I gladly will continue. There are costs involved and ancillary things to consider, it all adds up.

Thanks for commenting. And would you say that knowing what you know now, that you wish you had started TRT when you were younger? If I can get results now, I don't see why I should wait until I am in my 50's or 60's. I am almost 40 and spent my entire 30's living a gym lifestyle and not getting anywhere. I enjoy the lifestyle, but I am sick of not getting anywhere.

[Proximal]

Tough question for me, many factors involved. But let me ask you a question, the same question that I continually ask myself - what do you ultimately want to look like?

Take Bio-Active from this thread, incredible physique, incredible! Insane work, diet and dedication. However, you did see that it wasn't just TRT, but some of his doses and the doses of many of the members on this forum are significantly larger. Is it just TRT you are looking for?

Have to go to the gym shortly and looking forward to seeing your response after I get home.

[bioshocked]

Tough question for me, many factors involved. But let me ask you a question, the same question that I continually ask myself - what do you ultimately want to look like?

Take Bio-Active from this thread, incredible physique, incredible! Insane work, diet and dedication. However, you did see that it wasn't just TRT, but some of his doses and the doses of many of the members on this forum are significantly larger. Is it just TRT you are looking for?

Have to go to the gym shortly and looking forward to seeing your response after I get home.

Yes, just a Hormone Replacement Therapy to bring my 400's (low end of the normal spectrum) up to the high end of the normal spectrum. Such as 900-1200. Bio-Active mentioned that the photo he shows, is from around 1200. And I know everyone is different. You mention 150mg per week of T and you gained 13 Lbs in 6 months. And lost some fat. If I can gain 10 Lbs of muscle and lose some fat, all in 6 months while at 1200 T levels of TRT lifestyle, that sounds like success to me.

My ultimate goal is to reach and maintain 200 Lbs of lean muscle. At 6'0", that doesn't seem like a far stretch. But at the same time, I would need to gain about 32 Lbs of muscle and lose about 11 lbs of fat from my current 177 Lbs body. Rough estimates of course since I don't have an accurate BF% measurement to know exactly how many pounds of fat to lose to get to single digits BF%.

Maybe 900-1200 will only get me 15 Lbs of muscle no matter how long I train for. But it's a start. I don't know of any legal ways to get my levels over 1200 or if that is even needed. But that is my main goal, 200 Lbs and lean to see my abs. If I reach that, I can always modify my goals.

[Proximal]

Back from work & the gym, been thinking about this almost non-stop.

If I would have started this at a younger age it would have saved me a lot of grief. You are aware that there are people out there that respond poorly to weight training, despite the effort, diet, supplements, etc? I am one of those individuals and it would eat me up inside.

With that said, these gains I've experienced thus far will plateau and unfortunately I have an addictive personality - this means of course I will never be satisfied.

I'd say, go for it, provided you've done all your homewor as in costs, blood work, hgh, AIs if your E2 climbs, meds like cabergholine if your prolactin climbs, etc.

If I started at your age, I think my need for more would have taxed even ruined my marriage, so in a weird way, despite the pain of not progressing as a youth, makes my starting age @ 57 better for me.

[bioshocked]

That is a big part of why I am doing so much research. There is so much money and factors for this. My family life is already taxed heavily for time and money. And as the kids get older, that will likely get worse before it gets much better. Yet I also hate failing year after year. Heck, if I could just be 180 Lbs with highly visible abs for all my efforts, I probably wouldn't even be looking at this. But if I do this, I expect more for my efforts and money.

Still, I am just not sure I am ready for the cost and risks involved. I appreciate the comments and hopefully more people will share their opinions and experience. I almost feel like I fall into a strange middle category. Not quite low enough and none of the major symptoms to be in the clinically needed group where I feel I need to do this for my health. And not quite in the group of wanting gains so huge that I do huge-doses and possibly illegal use as I doubt any Dr would prescribe or be allowed to put my T levels in the 3000+ ng/dL range.

Unfortunately I don't know if I can keep pushing year after year with no changes. It's so hard to stay motivated when I am stuck at a level way below where I think I should have been years ago.

[Proximal]

That is a big part of why I am doing so much research. There is so much money and factors for this. My family life is already taxed heavily for time and money. And as the kids get older, that will likely get worse before it gets much better. Yet I also hate failing year after year..

Failing, how are you failing? Kids & family, that's a responsibility that men take on. I mean that as a compliment to you.

[bioshocked]

Failing, how are you failing? Kids & family, that's a responsibility that men take on. I mean that as a compliment to you.

I love my family and as a father I feel like a big success. Blessed with an awesome wife and awesome kids. I only meant my failures in the gym. My fitness failures. When I started, it felt like I was simply working on more goals to better myself. Now as I am almost 40, it feels like I might be chasing my youth. And I don't think that is a bad thing either. I just want to succeed in my fitness goals.

Right now I am still sick, so hard to focus on anything else at the moment. Unless I can find a more affordable way to get and maintain a TRT script and monitoring, it doesn't look like I will be doing it any time soon. I really don't want to spend $200+ a month for this.

[Proximal]

I love my family and as a father I feel like a big success. Blessed with an awesome wife and awesome kids. I only meant my failures in the gym. My fitness failures. When I started, it felt like I was simply working on more goals to better myself. Now as I am almost 40, it feels like I might be chasing my youth. And I don't think that is a bad thing either. I just want to succeed in my fitness goals.

Right now I am still sick, so hard to focus on anything else at the moment. Unless I can find a more affordable way to get and maintain a TRT script and monitoring, it doesn't look like I will be doing it any time soon. I really don't want to spend $200+ a month for this.

Sorry, should have been more clear - just sounded like you were being too tough on yourself.

Yeah, the costs can build. Speaking of which, I'm sure my wife and I will have more than a couple of discussions about Sermorelin, which is a growth hormone peptide that will run me another couple of hundred a month. Definitely wasn't in a position to spend this freely years ago.

Hope I helped a bit, get better.

[bioshocked]

Appointment went well. Had blood drawn today.

Lab order for:
CBC with Auto Diff
CMP - Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
Estradoil
Progesterone
DHEA-S
Testosterone , Free and Total
TSH - Thyroid Stimulating Hormone
PSA, Total (not sure what this is)
Vitamin D 25-OH

[bioshocked]

What?!?! Got the labs back and I have never seen my levels so low! And I have been trying to do everything I can with my eating, sleeping and exercise to keep it high. And it wasn't long ago this year that the levels were 429 for my total. But look at where they came in at from yesterday's blood draw. I know time of day and fasting or not can affect the results. Blood was drawn around 4:30p, up since 5:00am. Good sleep. I was only partially fasted. I think 4-5 hours instead of the 8+ they asked for. But I have never seen my results vary this much. How could they drop so much in just about a month? That test was around 11am and my last low of 390 was in the afternoon. But 263 now?!


Total T: 263 ng/dL
Free T: 4.44 ng/dL

Albumin 4.7 g/dL (high, range 3.0 - 4.6)
Progesterone: 0.49 ng/dL
Estradiol: 23.9 pg/mL
DHEA-S: 249.0 (high, 48-244)
RBC: 4.70 (4.70-5.90)
WBC: 5.52 (2.9-11.60)
Urea Nitrogen/Creatinine: 23 (high, <=20) could this be from Creatine supplimentation?

[dreadnok89]

Put it this way, if your making it to the gym I and staying in shape I'd say your body is fine. I was at 99,total test at 29 and never did any type of steroids . I couldnt get out or bed let alone think about going to the gym.

[bioshocked]

Put it this way, if your making it to the gym I and staying in shape I'd say your body is fine. I was at 99,total test at 29 and never did any type of steroids. I couldnt get out or bed let alone think about going to the gym.

I agree. I am "fine". I am not on any meds. I go to the gym 3-5 times a week and rarely miss gym time. I do cardio and weights. I am active with the family. I get good sleep most of the time and 8+ hours most of the time. While I am tired often, it's usually on gym days and that seems normal to me. Wish I had more energy. Sex life is good too. Mood is fine. Etc, etc.

But yes, in general I would say I am healthy and "fine". But I am not reaching my goals for gaining muscle mass and cutting fat to see my abs. Over the many years I have tried so many things to see what puzzle piece isn't fitting or is missing. Yet I can't seem to make any progress. I push to failure often. I have tried often and not often, etc. More recovery time, less recovery time. twice a day, less times a week, and more. My body doesn't seem to react to any of it. And I am not being impatient. I do this week after week for years on end. People keep saying to stick with it. Which I do. But still nothing.

At this point I don't know what else could be the issue other than my T levels combined with my lack of muscle gains and fat loss seem to point to needing more T.

Yet I was just talking to a guy at the gym that is way stronger that me, more mass, less fat, and older; yet is a natural 400 for total T on a recent blood test. He is only maintaining, so maybe he built that when he had more T. I don't know.

[Proximal]

Sorry I'm not an expert with interpreting blood tests bio, wish I could help there. Wish you continued luck with your decision.

[bioshocked]

Looks like am I taking the plunge. Nurse has setup my TRT plan and I picked up my Test C from the compound pharmacy. My starting plan below.

Test C, 200mg a week. 10ml vial.
D3 50,000 IU twice a week. My D3 levels are at the bottom of the lab range.
DHEA 50mg every day. Even though the lab says mine is high. She says that she usually goes for 250 for women and higher for men.

And she said I should stop taking my Creatine Monohydrate supps to bring down my Creatine levels, which she said my levels aren't that high, but that I really don't need them that high.

We will then meet in 8 weeks to review for adjustments.

[juggs]

Looks like am I taking the plunge. Nurse has setup my TRT plan and I picked up my Test C from the compound pharmacy. My starting plan below.

Test C, 200mg a week. 10ml vial.
D3 50,000 IU twice a week. My D3 levels are at the bottom of the lab range.
DHEA 50mg every day. Even though the lab says mine is high. She says that she usually goes for 250 for women and higher for men.

And she said I should stop taking my Creatine Monohydrate supps to bring down my Creatine levels, which she said my levels aren't that high, but that I really don't need them that high.

We will then meet in 8 weeks to review for adjustments.

200mg/wk - that's at the very top end of the range and should put your blood levels really high. For many clinics though I believe that is the standard dose. I think you will certainly start to respond to training much better.

I just started TRT a month ago, at 210mg/wk, and I'm still waiting for most of the positive benefits. I would say overall I feel a little better and my libido is no longer in the shitter. Also, I had a testicular injury years ago and have been in pain ever since, and that pain has completely ceased. So if nothing else it's been worth it for me.

I haven't experienced much, if anything in my physique yet, but I'm told it's way too early to start seeing benefits yet. I started TRT right after having a major shoulder surgery, so I'm not lifting weights at all except some limited lower body work, but I have noticed so far that my conditioning has improved. I strap my prowler to my weight belt and drag it up and down my driveway for conditioning, and today I went twice as far as I normally do, and didn't feel too worn out afterward. I would say it's helping so far.

I've been told by my doctor and many on this board and others that many of the positive benefits, especially physique-wise, don't begin to become apparent until the 8-12 time period, with peak benefit realized at 1-2yrs after beginning therapy. I'm certainly looking forward to it. I've been lifting weights since I was 15, played sports all my life, was in the Army for 9 years and still work out as often as I can, and I've struggled to look like I work out, especially bodyfat-wise. And don't even get me started on the years I've invested in the kitchen and in the nutrition books, academic studies, seminars, etc.

Oh, just for reference, at 210mg per week, I just had my own bloods done and my new test level was astronomical, at 2645 total and 37.6 free. I don't want my doc to lower my prescription, but I'm going to probably back off to 100-150mg/wk and bank the rest for a future cycle. Side effects I've noticed so far - my dick stopped working for the first week, then slowly came back to life and now thinks it's 18yrs old again. That I think might have been because the anastrozole tanked my E2 levels initially before the test had time to activate. I've had two pimples in the last month, which is two more than I would normally get, but still not a big deal. Initially my skin got oily for a few days and then went back to normal.

Just wanted to give you some insights from someone who recently started TRT, with a history of frustrations somewhat similar to yours. I hope we both make steady progress in the coming months. Good luck!

[kelkel]

Looks like am I taking the plunge. Nurse has setup my TRT plan and I picked up my Test C from the compound pharmacy. My starting plan below.

Test C, 200mg a week. 10ml vial.
D3 50,000 IU twice a week. My D3 levels are at the bottom of the lab range.
DHEA 50mg every day. Even though the lab says mine is high. She says that she usually goes for 250 for women and higher for men.

And she said I should stop taking my Creatine Monohydrate supps to bring down my Creatine levels, which she said my levels aren't that high, but that I really don't need them that high.

We will then meet in 8 weeks to review for adjustments.

Absolutely no clue why so many clinics / doc's start patients at a top end dose. Then what, what for the side effects and subsequently reduce the dose! What other med's do doc's start at the maximum dosage, hope for the best and then 90% of the time have to titrate down? Never made sense to me.

D3 at 50K twice per week? Do you mean D2? (Drisdol)

Re your creatine levels know that muscular trauma (exercise) or simply carrying more muscle will elevate this level.

[bioshocked]

200mg/wk - that's at the very top end of the range and should put your blood levels really high. For many clinics though I believe that is the standard dose. I think you will certainly start to respond to training much better.

I just started TRT a month ago, at 210mg/wk, and I'm still waiting for most of the positive benefits. I would say overall I feel a little better and my libido is no longer in the shitter. Also, I had a testicular injury years ago and have been in pain ever since, and that pain has completely ceased. So if nothing else it's been worth it for me.

I haven't experienced much, if anything in my physique yet, but I'm told it's way too early to start seeing benefits yet. I started TRT right after having a major shoulder surgery, so I'm not lifting weights at all except some limited lower body work, but I have noticed so far that my conditioning has improved. I strap my prowler to my weight belt and drag it up and down my driveway for conditioning, and today I went twice as far as I normally do, and didn't feel too worn out afterward. I would say it's helping so far.

I've been told by my doctor and many on this board and others that many of the positive benefits, especially physique-wise, don't begin to become apparent until the 8-12 time period, with peak benefit realized at 1-2yrs after beginning therapy. I'm certainly looking forward to it. I've been lifting weights since I was 15, played sports all my life, was in the Army for 9 years and still work out as often as I can, and I've struggled to look like I work out, especially bodyfat-wise. And don't even get me started on the years I've invested in the kitchen and in the nutrition books, academic studies, seminars, etc.

Oh, just for reference, at 210mg per week, I just had my own bloods done and my new test level was astronomical, at 2645 total and 37.6 free. I don't want my doc to lower my prescription, but I'm going to probably back off to 100-150mg/wk and bank the rest for a future cycle. Side effects I've noticed so far - my dick stopped working for the first week, then slowly came back to life and now thinks it's 18yrs old again. That I think might have been because the anastrozole tanked my E2 levels initially before the test had time to activate. I've had two pimples in the last month, which is two more than I would normally get, but still not a big deal. Initially my skin got oily for a few days and then went back to normal.

Just wanted to give you some insights from someone who recently started TRT, with a history of frustrations somewhat similar to yours. I hope we both make steady progress in the coming months. Good luck!

Nice to hear from someone that has similar efforts in the gym, kitchen, and recovery starting TRT. That sure is a high T level! Wow. Though based on what people say of cycling, levels in the 6,000+ range are not unheard of. I will say more in my reply to Kelkel below. While I hear that it takes time to see all the benefits, I am hoping to notice something the first 10 weeks (this first vial). Mostly hoping to feel improvements in my recovery time from the gym.

[bioshocked]

Absolutely no clue why so many clinics / doc's start patients at a top end dose. Then what, what for the side effects and subsequently reduce the dose! What other med's do doc's start at the maximum dosage, hope for the best and then 90% of the time have to titrate down? Never made sense to me.

D3 at 50K twice per week? Do you mean D2? (Drisdol)

Re your creatine levels know that muscular trauma (exercise) or simply carrying more muscle will elevate this level.

I don't know why she picked 200mg/wk to start. I don't know a ton of people personally on TRT, but one that I know is on 140mg/wk and they barely maintain a total T of 700 and he wants his T higher. At this point, I don't really care about the dose amount, just that I hope to maintain 1000-1200 in total T. And more importantly, that regardless of all the numbers, that I am able to finally build some muscle mass, shed enough fat to see my abs, recovery better, and not feel like sleeping at 4pm all the time.

No, definitely Cholecalciferol - Vitamin D3 50,000 IU twice a week. I am not sure why she wants me to take D3 versus D2. Though the general research I did says that many consider D3 superior to D2 for human Vitamin D supplementation. I looked at 3 completely different sources on the subject. All said D3 works better. I know the rules say no sources, but does that count for Vitamins and things you get without a prescription?

For my creatine levels, I have been supplementing with 5g of Creatine Monohydrate daily for the last 2 weeks before the blood test. Figured I don't like the feeling of using it so I will just stop for right now.

As for the 200mg dose to start. While I mostly only care about the final outcome, besides possible negative side affects, is there anything really bad about a high dose? Seems some people cycle 500mg and higher per week. Yes, I know that is a cycle, but is 200mg really that high? She seems really knowledgeable about this. More than any other doctor or clinic that I have seen so far. Not that I have a huge sample of experiences to gauge my opinion. One person I know is on 140mg/wk and is only maintaining total T at 700 and the Dr he was going to will not prescribe more than 140mg/wk. So he is looking for someone else right now.

[bioshocked]

I will keep searching, but is there a thread about using Test C via Intramuscular vs Subcutaneous injections? The bottle and script says I should be IM. Which I did. And it was 100% painless. Which is that normal? Or should I feel something? 24 hours later I do feel a slight muscle soreness. But barely there. Nothing like the soreness I get from exercising. Is IM or Sub more common for Test C? The only basic comments I found was some people find twice a week Sub shots to be more stable for levels than once a week IM shots. But isn't that more to do with 2 vs 1 shot a week and not the shot method or location? For now, as long as my shots are painless I will keep doing the once a week upper glute shot.

As for weekly shots and gym time. Does Testosterone affect a single area of bodybuilding more than others? Meaning training vs recovery. And depending on when T levels spike from an IM shot of Test C, do I want my weight training to be on those high T level times? Or do I want them elevated on rest days? Right now I am doing Friday shot, Weights M/W/F, cardio Tu/Thur, rest days Sat/Sun. Should I change that plan?

[Proximal]

Hey bio, maybe my last pm didn't go through. I most certainly can't speak for Kelkel, but recall some of these topics in other threads over the past months.

200 mg. might just raise your E2 levels, necessitating an AI. And after all, this is TRT not cycling like many of the other members, so 200 isn't "high" by cycling standards, is on the high end for TRT.

There have been threads/posts regarding sub-Q, so that method is not unheard of.

Two injections does keep t levels more constant and by breaking up a larger dose into smaller doses, lessen aromitization into E2 and eliminating the need for an AI.

I personally do two injections, keeping my test levels consistent, so effects on training & recovery are more consistent as well.

Just my rookie input. Congrats on your first step. Be sure to keep up your blood work.

[bioshocked]

Hey bio, maybe my last pm didn't go through. I most certainly can't speak for Kelkel, but recall some of these topics in other threads over the past months.

200 mg. might just raise your E2 levels, necessitating an AI. And after all, this is TRT not cycling like many of the other members, so 200 isn't "high" by cycling standards, is on the high end for TRT.

There have been threads/posts regarding sub-Q, so that method is not unheard of.

Two injections does keep t levels more constant and by breaking up a larger dose into smaller doses, lessen aromitization into E2 and eliminating the need for an AI.

I personally do two injections, keeping my test levels consistent, so effects on training & recovery are more consistent as well.

Just my rookie input. Congrats on your first step. Be sure to keep up your blood work.

Thanks for the continued input.

•The 10 week of doses came with 10 syringes with draw needles, and 10 1.5" injection needles. I would need more needles and shorter needles for sub injections. As the Test C is in oil, is it still more even to do 2 injections a week? I hate shots so once a week was already a high number to me. Though I can always change this at some point depending on how things go.

•In line with the injection frequency and the gym, are there a lot of people here that feel splitting the dose into 2 per week has made a measurable difference in muscle gains and recovery? Or is it more of a mood/energy swing that is more stable with 2 doses? As I don't know how I will be affected by Test C, I would be more likely to switch to twice a week to keep E3 in check so I don't need an AI. By the way, what measurement is E3 on my lab work? Didn't see anything called E3.

•For my 10 week first vial, I have an 8 week appointment to follow up. I am guessing I will do blood work right before that time. Appointment on a Wed, injections on Friday, blood work likely on Tuesday 4 days after my Friday shot. Since I am just starting, is 8 weeks too long to wait for my first blood work after starting a TRT plan?

•Injection method, IM vs Sub. Is there a thread here that polls opinion on this?

NOTE: the list formatting showed in the preview but didn't work when posted, so I had to edit the list and just use ALT+0149 for •

[Proximal]

A disclaimer, I am still a rookie at this, alright?

From what I've read, the half life of the test C is about 6 days, peaks around the first day, drops quickly @ the fourth, how significantly will that effect your personal workouts & mood, I can't say. Personally, switching from 1 to 2 x per week, seems to improve my workouts, I'm still trying to get my estradiol (E2) and AI figured out / balanced. 1 vs. 2x never effected my mood.

Never saw a poll on sub - Q vs IM. If you're not big on shots, have you considered gel?

One thing I just realized is the fact that hCG hasn't been discussed. Have you considered it, discussed it with your doc?

E2 is estradiol. Test aromitizes into this and you want to keep yourself within normal ranges. You need a sensitive or enhanced assay for this. There are other things to consider as well, like your hematocrit levels climbing and also possibly your prolactin as well. The higher the dosage of test, the more all of these will climb - thus the comments on 200 mg. being on the high end.

There are three TRT books I really like: " the definitive TRT manual" by Jay Cambell, Testosterone : A Man's Guide by Nelson Vergel and TRT A recipe for success by DR. John Crisler.

Got to head to work, hope this helps.

[juggs]

Thanks for the continued input.

•The 10 week of doses came with 10 syringes with draw needles, and 10 1.5" injection needles. I would need more needles and shorter needles for sub injections. As the Test C is in oil, is it still more even to do 2 injections a week? I hate shots so once a week was already a high number to me. Though I can always change this at some point depending on how things go.

•In line with the injection frequency and the gym, are there a lot of people here that feel splitting the dose into 2 per week has made a measurable difference in muscle gains and recovery? Or is it more of a mood/energy swing that is more stable with 2 doses? As I don't know how I will be affected by Test C, I would be more likely to switch to twice a week to keep E3 in check so I don't need an AI. By the way, what measurement is E3 on my lab work? Didn't see anything called E3.

•For my 10 week first vial, I have an 8 week appointment to follow up. I am guessing I will do blood work right before that time. Appointment on a Wed, injections on Friday, blood work likely on Tuesday 4 days after my Friday shot. Since I am just starting, is 8 weeks too long to wait for my first blood work after starting a TRT plan?

•Injection method, IM vs Sub. Is there a thread here that polls opinion on this?

NOTE: the list formatting showed in the preview but didn't work when posted, so I had to edit the list and just use ALT+0149 for •

E2 = Estradiol. The most prominent and therefore most important to track estrogen. In general yes, mood and everything else will be more stable with twice per week injections. Injection frequency being equal, subcutaneous is said to result in more stable blood levels. I don't know of a specific thread, but I've seen this repeated just about everywhere, so take with a grain of salt. It makes some logical sense though, given that muscle receives much more blood flow than subcutaneous fat, so while it might take longer for levels to build up initially, they will probably be more stable in the long run.

I was told to wait 8 weeks before followup blood work too, but some recommend sooner. I had my own done through ************* at 4 weeks, which is how i found out my test levels were astronomical.

[bioshocked]

A disclaimer, I am still a rookie at this, alright?

From what I've read, the half life of the test C is about 6 days, peaks around the first day, drops quickly @ the fourth, how significantly will that effect your personal workouts & mood, I can't say. Personally, switching from 1 to 2 x per week, seems to improve my workouts, I'm still trying to get my estradiol (E2) and AI figured out / balanced. 1 vs. 2x never effected my mood.

Never saw a poll on sub - Q vs IM. If you're not big on shots, have you considered gel?

One thing I just realized is the fact that hCG hasn't been discussed. Have you considered it, discussed it with your doc?

E2 is estradiol. Test aromitizes into this and you want to keep yourself within normal ranges. You need a sensitive or enhanced assay for this. There are other things to consider as well, like your hematocrit levels climbing and also possibly your prolactin as well. The higher the dosage of test, the more all of these will climb - thus the comments on 200 mg. being on the high end.

There are three TRT books I really like: " the definitive TRT manual" by Jay Cambell, Testosterone : A Man's Guide by Nelson Vergel and TRT A recipe for success by DR. John Crisler.

Got to head to work, hope this helps.

Thanks for the reading ideas. I will look into that.

She did discuss hCG and is planning on having me start that at the 3 month mark. She claims that this is to keep natural production going which in turn will supposedly help make my levels more stable as well. Though not sure how that would affect the level swings. Seems it would just increase the floor levels of the swings.

I didn't post all my lab work, but I think it covers all the items mentioned so far.

[bioshocked]

E2 = Estradiol. The most prominent and therefore most important to track estrogen. In general yes, mood and everything else will be more stable with twice per week injections. Injection frequency being equal, subcutaneous is said to result in more stable blood levels. I don't know of a specific thread, but I've seen this repeated just about everywhere, so take with a grain of salt. It makes some logical sense though, given that muscle receives much more blood flow than subcutaneous fat, so while it might take longer for levels to build up initially, they will probably be more stable in the long run.

I was told to wait 8 weeks before followup blood work too, but some recommend sooner. I had my own done through ************* at 4 weeks, which is how i found out my test levels were astronomical.

With your comments on IM vs SUB injections, it sounds like my initial 10 weeks could be fine with this method and after it builds up maybe I will switch to biweekly with SUB injections. I will consider that and discuss at my next visit.

Lots of things being checked in my labs. I will double check what I had checked last time and what else I can add to the labs for next time. As long as I don't have any symptoms of issues, I am not sure I want to know how high my levels are in just 4 weeks. And by astronomical, do you mean way over 1200 total? And did you change anything or keep them high?

As I have been telling a few other people that I know in person on TRT plans, they too are shocked that I am starting out at 200mg a week. Not sure if I should be highly concerned about that or not. For now I will just see how it all goes as I am sure things will change.

hCG will add to my monthly cost for sure. But the pricing seems reasonable.

What about HGH and Sermorelin? Are either of these worth adding to a TRT plan with hCG, given the hCG is mainly to help keep my testes producing. What exactly would the HGH be for? Is there a good thread on this topic? The little reading I have done says Sermorelin is worthless compared to hGH. But hGH is very expensive and seems to be harder to dose right from person to person. Not sure it's worth the risk to benefits for hGH. And not sure Sermorelin is effective enough to be worth adding cost to my TRT / hCG plan.

One thing at a time right.