Doesn't seem that low, should I even go down this road?

[bioshocked]

Let's start with some numbers. Here are some basic numbers from my last 2 labs.

6'0" currently 177 Lbs.

2016 March: (sadly this is all I got from the lab)
Total T: 429 ng/dL (Morning)
IGF-1: 143 ng/mL

2015 August: (I have more details, just have to find the full lab results again)
Total T: 390 ng/dL (Afternoon)
Free T: 6.08 ng/dL ( 60.8 pg/mL )

2009 August: (Not sure I can find the labs on this one to see the rest of the blood work)
Total T: 454 ng/dL (not sure on the time, likely afternoon)

I am 39 and have been going to the gym hardcore since 2009. Yet my body stays at 170-180 Lbs at 6'0" height. I rarely miss a week at the gym. And have tried 3, 4, and 5 day splits. I do Cardio and Weight lifting. Shifting back and forth on how much cardio I do. 2015 I tried no cardio other than 5 min warm ups and cool downs. And have pretty much tried every supplement and diet out there. I simply can't seem to get my body composition to change. Fat levels change slightly between 15-20% (generalized measuring) when I greatly change my calorie intake. Lean mass doesn't change much either.

I am so tired of putting in the effort and not getting anywhere. People at the gym and around me are always asking why I am so tired all the time. More so at the gym. I got a new bed in 2015 after seeing my 390 T number and I think that has helped a little. But I am not looking at HRT to help me sleep or have more energy. I simply want to improve my body's ability to gain mass and lose fat with all my efforts.

So, the basic question. Does anyone thing I should try an HRT plan to see if it will change my body composition with all my efforts with gym, recovery, and diet?

Is it even realistic to think it will help me when my numbers are around 400?

[bioshocked]

And the obvious next part of this. If I do start therapy, I am looking for a Dr in Phoenix. I have called a few compounding pharmacies and got a few Dr's to call. But so far it's not going too well.

This is how it goes so far when I call:
1. They don't do it. My PCP is this way.
2. They do it, but are not taking new patients.
3. They do it, but max they maintain ranges from 500 to 700. Not sure I want that limit imposed when the range goes to 1100-1200 on many lab results.
4. They are a clinic and the cost is insane and/or they won't let you self inject at home. They control lab pricing etc. Just super expensive.

And then I found 1 that will let me self inject at home and fill the script where I want. But they charge a 125 monthly "subscription" that doesn't give you anything. Given that I don't expect many visits per year, it seems expensive to pay 1500 a year just for them to write scripts and advise 2 times a year after I am stable. But they have experience and at willing to maintain a range as high as 800-1200 depending on all the other numbers and symptoms.

Given that I have only found 1 that might work, I would like to keep looking for someone in Phoenix.

[bullshark99]

I would proceed with caution if I were you. The cost is the cost, your gonna pay about 200 a month unless you can get your GP to manage you.
The big thing here, you go down this road its for life. This isn't something you try then stop, if so you will be risking your own production further.
Based on your reasons, seems to me your more interested in a cycle than TRT? Nothing wrong if that's the case....

[bioshocked]

I would proceed with caution if I were you. The cost is the cost, your gonna pay about 200 a month unless you can get your GP to manage you.
The big thing here, you go down this road its for life. This isn't something you try then stop, if so you will be risking your own production further.
Based on your reasons, seems to me your more interested in a cycle than TRT? Nothing wrong if that's the case....

I agree, this is for life. I am not interested in a cycle. But if it doesn't help me reach my goals and I can get off before it totally destroys my natural production permanently; then I wouldn't continue and I would change my goals.

But does anyone think that TRT in general would help me reach my goals when my numbers look like this?

[Mp859]

I would imagine you aren't eating enough quality food.

[bioshocked]

I would imagine you aren't eating enough quality food.

I am told this all the time. And I have changed it many times. Other than talking about my total calories, which I have increased many times until it seems I am only gaining fat. I will say that I think I eat pretty good foods. I rarely eat out, only on vacations if I can't make stuff on my own. No soda. Rarely cereal. Chicken breast, leans meats, whole milk on and off depending on purpose. Almonds. Peanut Butter, veggies, bananas, apples, fish, sweet potatoes off and on when I have time to peel and cook them. Cottage cheese. Plain greek yogurt. Oatmeal. Eggs. Beans. Occasional home made mexican food with and without the tortilla shells. Brown rice. Cheese sometimes. And sometimes desert foods, generally around holidays and events. Also under control. Trying to think of other things I eat often. It's mostly Chicken, rice, oatmeal, eggs, veggies, and milk for my protein shakes. Which is only once a day right now.

Enough = Not sure, when I do track the amounts I think I typically get around 2200-2500. And when I force it and plan, I have a hard time hitting 3000-3300 calories. And when I am at this range I seem to gain a little fat but still no muscle mass and no strength increses.

Quality = I think I eat quality foods. I stay away from processed foods in general. I don't buy grass fed beef, but I wouldn't call the fish, beef, and chicken that I eat as low quality.

Still, while I think my T has improved with some foods, I just am not getting anywhere with all the things I try and it seems like the only thing left to try is altering my biology through medical treatment.

Or should the low 400's be plenty in general for muscle mass and fat loss, and I am simply wasting my time researching TRT for this?

[SweepTheLegJohnny]

This is a grey area toss-up, honestly...

My first round of BW showed that my total T was just below 300 back in 2014 and I had the most "respected" endocrinologist in the area tell me that my levels weren't low enough to warrant a hypogandism diagnosis even though that number was out of the lab's range. I found many doctors that were willing to prescribe testosterone after that but I also found that I needed hCG due to the severe suppression of the my already deficient HTPA... I couldn't find a doctor to prescribe hCG so I went with an expensive private clinic for awhile, got everything dialed in and then hunted down an endo six months later and showed him how successful my protocol had been. He was more than happy to work with me after seeing all of blood work and doing a full CBC round himself.

But, I honestly wouldn't have gone down the TRT road if a)my libido hadn't been shit, b) I couldn't drop weight to save my life and I was 290lbs at 5'11'' (I was a former competitive bodybuilder so I know how to eat and train..) and c) my depression and anxiety were worsening every single year and the docs were just piling on psychotropics. So, if I were in your shoes, I would think long and hard about jumping into TRT given that your test levels wouldn't be considered low for your age, you'd have a difficult time finding a doctor that would take the case on and that's a circus because it takes time to get the protocol dialed in.

[bioshocked]

This is a grey area toss-up, honestly...

My first round of BW showed that my total T was just below 300 back in 2014 and I had the most "respected" endocrinologist in the area tell me that my levels weren't low enough to warrant a hypogandism diagnosis even though that number was out of the lab's range. I found many doctors that were willing to prescribe testosterone after that but I also found that I needed hCG due to the severe suppression of the my already deficient HTPA... I couldn't find a doctor to prescribe hCG so I went with an expensive private clinic for awhile, got everything dialed in and then hunted down an endo six months later and showed him how successful my protocol had been. He was more than happy to work with me after seeing all of blood work and doing a full CBC round himself.

But, I honestly wouldn't have gone down the TRT road if a)my libido hadn't been shit, b) I couldn't drop weight to save my life and I was 290lbs at 5'11'' (I was a former competitive bodybuilder so I know how to eat and train..) and c) my depression and anxiety were worsening every single year and the docs were just piling on psychotropics. So, if I were in your shoes, I would think long and hard about jumping into TRT given that your test levels wouldn't be considered low for your age, you'd have a difficult time finding a doctor that would take the case on and that's a circus because it takes time to get the protocol dialed in.

I am happy that I don't have any sexual issues or concerns. Depression comes and goes. Likely just life stress. Not on anything right now. I do have energy issues, but that too could be many things or I simply just push too hard and recover poorly.

The Doctors are out there. As my first posts says, I can get on a TRT plan now and depending on many factors, they could bring my Total T up to 900-1200. Etc.

So far the people replying don't think I should use a TRT plan to build muscle and lose fat for the rest of my life. Is it because it is a life long commitment? Or is it because no one here thinks it will actually help me build muscle and lose fat. I am neither skinny nor fat. 15% body fat is higher than I want. But not fat. I would like to be single digits for body fat, and a lot more lean muscle. Would like to get to 190-200 Lbs and 7-9% BF. After years of staying the same no matter what I try or the trainers I get, I am searching for answers that might be my biology.

[bioshocked]

How about this question as another way to look at it. If my low 400's at 39 is considered fine, "don't do anything". Then what range are people going to here when they are committed to TRT? 400? 450? 500?

I see plenty of people saying they are on TRT for specific symptoms and with a natural range usually way below 300 for total T. But are most of you only getting your levels up to the 400 range? If many labs list a normal range between 300-1100, then isn't 400 on the low side? Maybe not low enough to cause sexual or other issues, but I don't recovery, build muscle, or lose fat as well as I used to. And that might be normal. But why not tweak biology to be closer to a naturally strong male in their 20's?

[Qball692]

How about this question as another way to look at it. If my low 400's at 39 is considered fine, "don't do anything". Then what range are people going to here when they are committed to TRT? 400? 450? 500?

I see plenty of people saying they are on TRT for specific symptoms and with a natural range usually way below 300 for total T. But are most of you only getting your levels up to the 400 range? If many labs list a normal range between 300-1100, then isn't 400 on the low side? Maybe not low enough to cause sexual or other issues, but I don't recovery, build muscle, or lose fat as well as I used to. And that might be normal. But why not tweak biology to be closer to a naturally strong male in their 20's?

I feel you on that! My test is in the 520's. Yet I have hit a wall, and i have all the symptoms of low Test, the Low T centers up here in the Springs tell me im low. Yet I have been told not to do TRT.

[bioshocked]

I feel you on that! My test is in the 520's. Yet I have hit a wall, and i have all the symptoms of low Test, the Low T centers up here in the Springs tell me im low. Yet I have been told not to do TRT.

Like anything, it's risk/reward. As of this stage in my life, really the only reward that I see as worth the risk, is if I can build muscle and lose fat with all my time in the gym and clean eating. Other than that, I don't really mind the lack of energy as I have dealt with that for years and probably don't know any better.

So for men with natural levels that are extremely low like 200 or less, would they be happy with the risk and life time injections to only get their numbers to 400-500? Maybe they would. I am sure it depends on the goal. If the goal is just to correct other symptoms and not to build muscle, I would probably be happy with just doing the bare minimum to correct those things.

But since I don't have those symptoms, I would like to have all my levels at the high end of the "healthy" spectrum for prime muscle building, fat loss, and healing/recovery of strong men that likely also have high levels naturally.

What do people think of my Free T levels that I posted?

[Bio-Active]

How about this question as another way to look at it. If my low 400's at 39 is considered fine, "don't do anything". Then what range are people going to here when they are committed to TRT? 400? 450? 500? I see plenty of people saying they are on TRT for specific symptoms and with a natural range usually way below 300 for total T. But are most of you only getting your levels up to the 400 range? If many labs list a normal range between 300-1100, then isn't 400 on the low side? Maybe not low enough to cause sexual or other issues, but I don't recovery, build muscle, or lose fat as well as I used to. And that might be normal. But why not tweak biology to be closer to a naturally strong male in their 20's?

most of us didn't start trt till out levels were well below 300.. My levels were 220 and I was still able to get shredded and had people asking what I was running

[bioshocked]

most of us didn't start trt till out levels were well below 300.. My levels were 220 and I was still able to get shredded and had people asking what I was running

wow, so you were shredded and had good muscle mass at 220? I guess that is why the lab range is so huge. People must be able to build muscle and lose fat in a wide spectrum of levels. I seriously have tried an insane number of natural things for at least 8+ years. And when I do lose fat, I lose muscle as well and just end up looking like a very skinny runner. And when I gain muscle, I only restore what I had before and restore the fat levels as well. I see all these people who claim to be all natural (and they look natural), that have amazing body transformations in 12 weeks. Or even 1 year. But I haven't really changed in 8 years.

[Bio-Active]

wow, so you were shredded and had good muscle mass at 220? I guess that is why the lab range is so huge. People must be able to build muscle and lose fat in a wide spectrum of levels. I seriously have tried an insane number of natural things for at least 8+ years. And when I do lose fat, I lose muscle as well and just end up looking like a very skinny runner. And when I gain muscle, I only restore what I had before and restore the fat levels as well. I see all these people who claim to be all natural (and they look natural), that have amazing body transformations in 12 weeks. Or even 1 year. But I haven't really changed in 8 years.

Yes i would have been happy with a level in the high 400's. My eating was impeccably clean and training was totally dialed in as well. Once i started looking at it the highest i ever came back was 280

[Bio-Active]

You need to take those snacks and turn them I to meals. Your not eating enough. The food choices are pretty good but we need to get you eating more food. Those protein shakes don't have many calories either I gave those up years ago and put food in there place

[bioshocked]

You need to take those snacks and turn them I to meals. Your not eating enough. The food choices are pretty good but we need to get you eating more food. Those protein shakes don't have many calories either I gave those up years ago and put food in there place

Yeah, I generally only have 1 shake for my post workout to satisfy my sweet tooth and for quick carbs and quick protein. And I rarely have the bedtime shake. A tub of powder lasts me a long time. I tried to replace it with food but miss the sweetness of the shake.

Last year I did pretty much what you are suggesting. I would prep tubs of brown rice (1 cup cooked) with a chicken breast and veggies. And eat 3 of those while at work. Plus my workout shake and my usual breakfast. AND with the snacks. And still have dinner and bedtime snack. I did that for 6 weeks and finally gained 1 or 2 Lbs. but no change in gym performance. Still tired as could be. That was hard for 2 reasons. Took a ton of time over the weekends to cook a whole box of rice, peel my sweet potatoes and grill a ton of chicken. And 2nd, I really have a hard time eating that much food. Always feeling constantly full to the point of feeling ill.

At that point I was getting around 250 and sometimes as high as 300g of protein a day and well over 3000 calories a day. I think it came to around 3500-3600 cals a day.

I also tried caffeine to help with gym fatigue but it didn't help and only gave me the shakes. I don't like it.

Still, was actually already planning on bumping my calories up again this weekend but now that I feel sick and it's a holiday, I will probably wait until next weekend to bump it up that much. And even when when I wasn't that prepped, I was still trying to eat a ton all of 2015 with little success. I only did the actual counting and full preps for 6 weeks. The rest was me thinking I was eating a lot.

[Bio-Active]

Yeah, I generally only have 1 shake for my post workout to satisfy my sweet tooth and for quick carbs and quick protein. And I rarely have the bedtime shake. A tub of powder lasts me a long time. I tried to replace it with food but miss the sweetness of the shake. Last year I did pretty much what you are suggesting. I would prep tubs of brown rice (1 cup cooked) with a chicken breast and veggies. And eat 3 of those while at work. Plus my workout shake and my usual breakfast. AND with the snacks. And still have dinner and bedtime snack. I did that for 6 weeks and finally gained 1 or 2 Lbs. but no change in gym performance. Still tired as could be. That was hard for 2 reasons. Took a ton of time over the weekends to cook a whole box of rice, peel my sweet potatoes and grill a ton of chicken. And 2nd, I really have a hard time eating that much food. Always feeling constantly full to the point of feeling ill. At that point I was getting around 250 and sometimes as high as 300g of protein a day and well over 3000 calories a day. I think it came to around 3500-3600 cals a day. I also tried caffeine to help with gym fatigue but it didn't help and only gave me the shakes. I don't like it. Still, was actually already planning on bumping my calories up again this weekend but now that I feel sick and it's a holiday, I will probably wait until next weekend to bump it up that much. And even when when I wasn't that prepped, I was still trying to eat a ton all of 2015 with little success. I only did the actual counting and full preps for 6 weeks. The rest was me thinking I was eating a lot.

bottom line is if you were eating that much and only gaining 1-2 lbs then you still were not eating enough. Clean food dies not have a lot of calories in it and you have to eat a ton of food to grow. You could add more essential fats to your meals to get more calories in as well. Take a look at nach and my thread. Bio and nachs extreme lifestyle and see how much work we put into eating and training

[bioshocked]

Bio-Active, is that photo of you naturally at 220 T levels?

[Bio-Active]

Bio-Active, is that photo of you naturally at 220 T levels?

no in my avi I was running 200 mg of test cyp every 5 days. Nothing else

[bioshocked]

no in my avi I was running 200 mg of test cyp every 5 days. Nothing else

Darn, that kind of makes me want to do test cyp as well. I was hoping that was your before picture while at a natural 220 level. So what is your level at in that photo on test cyp? 500?

[Bio-Active]

Darn, that kind of makes me want to do test cyp as well. I was hoping that was your before picture while at a natural 220 level. So what is your level at in that photo on test cyp? 500?

not very high about 1200 ng/dl

[SweepTheLegJohnny]

I viewed starting TRT from a strictly medical stand-point. I had destroyed my HPTA system using pro-hormones and AAS, my body fat levels crept up and up (even with a proper diet and exercise), my blood sugar was climbing, I had NO libido, my depression and anxiety were getting out of control and the docs were pouring on psychotropics (that I am now weaning off of) and the fatigue was so bad that they tested me for several auto-immune disorders.. I finally asked a doctor to run my testosterone levels and we found out that they were completely crashed, along with several other hormones. To make matters worse, I couldn't really hit the gym much anymore as I wasn't recovering, even while eating properly and getting rest.

You're correct, there is a risk/reward behind every decision but I feel that making the choice to jump on TRT is a big one given that it really is a life-long commitment and it can be an extremely bumpy road to try and get it dialed in. I struggled to get proper treatment for three years as doctors just weren't educated on the subject. They loaded me up on test, didn't listen to me when I my e2 sky-rocketed and my testicles throbbed until I could barely sit. I quit therapy cold turkey three times because of all of these problems which was hell-on-earth, in and of itself.

To be honest, I wasn't even impressed with the private TRT doctor that I was seeing. She started me out on the max dose for TRT (200mgs week), didn't return messages when I was fighting the symptoms of high e2 and then threw me on a .5mgs of arimidex twice a week when my e2 levels were less than five points out of range. I crashed my e2, I felt like death and finally just cut my dosage in half to save myself the hassle. It took me THREE weeks to get a hold of her to tell her that I was dropping my dosage.

So, just be aware that this isn't a simple path to go down.

[bioshocked]

...
So, just be aware that this isn't a simple path to go down.

Sorry to hear your story. This is a serious matter and by far not a simple process at all. I have seen success stories and stories of hell like yours. Which is why I didn't just simply a month ago when a clinic wanted me to start. I wanted to research first.

Currently I only see 2 options for me:

1. Don't start a TRT lifetime lifestyle. Which based on the last 8+ years, means I am 99% likely to not get anywhere with my body image goals. I am healthy and don't suffer any debilitating symptoms. Sex life is fine. Energy is manageable but could likely be improved with or without TRT. I am not on any medical treatments, etc. Other than being on the low end of the "normal" spectrum of T levels, I would say I am healthy and don't NEED anything to just keep living. Body fat is respectable around 15-17%, lean mass is ok with my body weight at 170-180 range. No abs. Just look like a regular healthy 39 year old that goes to the gym.

2. I alter my biology. As that appears to be the only factor I haven't tried in 8+ years.

After so many years of being patient and trying so many things while seeing others around me making great improvements in their fitness body image goals, I don't want to wait until I am even older to start TRT if this is the missing key to my goals. The major downsides are the lifetime commitment, needles, cost, and risks. Which I don't take lightly and it worries me a lot. And is the only reason I haven't just jumped on this years ago. And then I see success stories of men that are dialed in and stable for years and loving their body changes.

I have only talked to a few people in person, the rest online. But it makes me ask "Do I wait until I am 50 or 60 before I try? Or take advantage in my 40's and enjoy the benefits for the rest of my TRT life?" Of course like plastic surgery and other areas, I could also be the hell story.

[tbody66]

I'm a fan of starting sooner than 50 or 60, but it appears that caloric intake is going to be your biggest enemy. My levels were at 50 when I was put on. Without pics and specifics of diet and exact training I can't do much more than that.

[bioshocked]

I'm a fan of starting sooner than 50 or 60, but it appears that caloric intake is going to be your biggest enemy. My levels were at 50 when I was put on. Without pics and specifics of diet and exact training I can't do much more than that.

Unless more people comment, the limits people so far seem to start when their T was super low, but yet maintain higher than my low 400's. So I don't see how 400 is a decent number naturally when I want to build muscle. I share photos on another site. While I think it's against the rules to say other site names, is it considered OK to share my forum name via Private message here so that they can google and find the other site?

I agree with the calories. That will be a huge factor for me if I start a TRT lifestyle and want to gain any mass. My current low 400's with typically 5 says at the gym a week. I have been stuck around 175 for years. Even if it wasn't muscle gains, if I was eating enough, I would gain either fat or muscle no matter what my T levels. So yes. I really need to get the calories up. I can seek more help with that when the time comes. Hopefully soon.

[tbody66]

My understanding of the low side of the acceptable scale is at a range to get a sedentary lifestyle adult male off of the couch or not want to kill himself. For an active lifestyle or wanting to put on mass it needs to be at or over the top of the acceptable levels. I'm suggesting you do a cycle, just be prepared to eat to get the gains. I have worked with hundreds of people that changing the way they lifted, several with years of lifting experience, proved more results than any other single part of the program.

[bioshocked]

My understanding of the low side of the acceptable scale is at a range to get a sedentary lifestyle adult male off of the couch or not want to kill himself.

That is what I think as well. At 429 (last number) I feel just fine as a regular healthy adult. But not sure that is good enough to reach my goals of cutting fat and gaining more muscle.

For an active lifestyle or wanting to put on mass it needs to be at or over the top of the acceptable levels. I'm suggesting you do a cycle, just be prepared to eat to get the gains. I have worked with hundreds of people that changing the way they lifted, several with years of lifting experience, proved more results than any other single part of the program.

By cycle you mean a plan that I come off of and go natural again? And the last part of your comment, are you saying the way I lift is the most important part of all of it? I have tried so many different lifting methods as well. None seemed to have worked any better than others. I am open to hearing what you think I should try for lifting. As for food, in the past when I track it and get 3300+ cals for an extended time, I eventually gained a little weight, but I don't think it was muscle mass as I didn't get stronger and I felt like I had more fat around my midsection. This was over a 6 week period. Recovery was still poor as well. I tend to stay sore for days.

Still, I am willing to try natural gains for a while longer before throwing in the towel. I don't like needles or buying stuff I don't need. So if I am simply missing something, I would like to hear more. I have trained with several people in person. Still am. They get results, but somehow I don't.

[bioshocked]

2 quick photos I took today. Arms to the side, resting state. Then a basic double bicep flex. Both are pretty crappy looking. But thought maybe people might want to see what I look like after nearly a decade of working out. I have pretty much looked exactly like this for years. If you go bad about 10+ years ago before I was doing anything physical and eating fast food constantly, I was 215 Lbs and fat with likely less muscle mass than I have now. I was that way between years 24-27 I think. In high school I was never heavy. I was 160-165 and thin/low fat and I ate a ton of crap. So that is some history.

Sick for Easter, sucks. I was hoping to prep meals this weekend, but looks like I won't be going to the gym for at least part of this week.

[Proximal]

Bioshocked, I've glanced at all of the above and understand where you are coming from. In my teens, 20's, 30's and into my 40's I killed myself in the gym, ate clean, tried different routines/forms of training, diets, etc. yet, never made the gains / saw the results I desired.

I am currently 57. Six months ago I started on TRT - since that time, I've gained 13 pounds of muscle and have dropped from 16% to 13% body fat (this is determined through underwater weighing). My wife of 30 years tells me what I sometimes cannot believe, that is that my physique is the best it's been ever. BTW, I still eat clean, but now take in more calories than I've taken in since I've been a teenager. Oh, and I'm sure I'll be roasted for this one, I absolutely refuse to eliminate my wine, which is about 1 - 2 bottles per night.

I inject .75 mg of T, 2x per week.

This is a life commitment though and one which I gladly will continue. There are costs involved and ancillary things to consider, it all adds up.

[bioshocked]

Bioshocked, I've glanced at all of the above and understand where you are coming from. In my teens, 20's, 30's and into my 40's I killed myself in the gym, ate clean, tried different routines/forms of training, diets, etc. yet, never made the gains / saw the results I desired.

I am currently 57. Six months ago I started on TRT - since that time, I've gained 13 pounds of muscle and have dropped from 16% to 13% body fat (this is determined through underwater weighing). My wife of 30 years tells me what I sometimes cannot believe, that is that my physique is the best it's been ever. BTW, I still eat clean, but now take in more calories than I've taken in since I've been a teenager. Oh, and I'm sure I'll be roasted for this one, I absolutely refuse to eliminate my wine, which is about 1 - 2 bottles per night.

I inject .75 mg of T, 2x per week.

This is a life commitment though and one which I gladly will continue. There are costs involved and ancillary things to consider, it all adds up.

Thanks for commenting. And would you say that knowing what you know now, that you wish you had started TRT when you were younger? If I can get results now, I don't see why I should wait until I am in my 50's or 60's. I am almost 40 and spent my entire 30's living a gym lifestyle and not getting anywhere. I enjoy the lifestyle, but I am sick of not getting anywhere.

[Proximal]

Tough question for me, many factors involved. But let me ask you a question, the same question that I continually ask myself - what do you ultimately want to look like?

Take Bio-Active from this thread, incredible physique, incredible! Insane work, diet and dedication. However, you did see that it wasn't just TRT, but some of his doses and the doses of many of the members on this forum are significantly larger. Is it just TRT you are looking for?

Have to go to the gym shortly and looking forward to seeing your response after I get home.

[bioshocked]

Tough question for me, many factors involved. But let me ask you a question, the same question that I continually ask myself - what do you ultimately want to look like?

Take Bio-Active from this thread, incredible physique, incredible! Insane work, diet and dedication. However, you did see that it wasn't just TRT, but some of his doses and the doses of many of the members on this forum are significantly larger. Is it just TRT you are looking for?

Have to go to the gym shortly and looking forward to seeing your response after I get home.

Yes, just a Hormone Replacement Therapy to bring my 400's (low end of the normal spectrum) up to the high end of the normal spectrum. Such as 900-1200. Bio-Active mentioned that the photo he shows, is from around 1200. And I know everyone is different. You mention 150mg per week of T and you gained 13 Lbs in 6 months. And lost some fat. If I can gain 10 Lbs of muscle and lose some fat, all in 6 months while at 1200 T levels of TRT lifestyle, that sounds like success to me.

My ultimate goal is to reach and maintain 200 Lbs of lean muscle. At 6'0", that doesn't seem like a far stretch. But at the same time, I would need to gain about 32 Lbs of muscle and lose about 11 lbs of fat from my current 177 Lbs body. Rough estimates of course since I don't have an accurate BF% measurement to know exactly how many pounds of fat to lose to get to single digits BF%.

Maybe 900-1200 will only get me 15 Lbs of muscle no matter how long I train for. But it's a start. I don't know of any legal ways to get my levels over 1200 or if that is even needed. But that is my main goal, 200 Lbs and lean to see my abs. If I reach that, I can always modify my goals.

[Proximal]

Back from work & the gym, been thinking about this almost non-stop.

If I would have started this at a younger age it would have saved me a lot of grief. You are aware that there are people out there that respond poorly to weight training, despite the effort, diet, supplements, etc? I am one of those individuals and it would eat me up inside.

With that said, these gains I've experienced thus far will plateau and unfortunately I have an addictive personality - this means of course I will never be satisfied.

I'd say, go for it, provided you've done all your homewor as in costs, blood work, hgh, AIs if your E2 climbs, meds like cabergholine if your prolactin climbs, etc.

If I started at your age, I think my need for more would have taxed even ruined my marriage, so in a weird way, despite the pain of not progressing as a youth, makes my starting age @ 57 better for me.

[bioshocked]

That is a big part of why I am doing so much research. There is so much money and factors for this. My family life is already taxed heavily for time and money. And as the kids get older, that will likely get worse before it gets much better. Yet I also hate failing year after year. Heck, if I could just be 180 Lbs with highly visible abs for all my efforts, I probably wouldn't even be looking at this. But if I do this, I expect more for my efforts and money.

Still, I am just not sure I am ready for the cost and risks involved. I appreciate the comments and hopefully more people will share their opinions and experience. I almost feel like I fall into a strange middle category. Not quite low enough and none of the major symptoms to be in the clinically needed group where I feel I need to do this for my health. And not quite in the group of wanting gains so huge that I do huge-doses and possibly illegal use as I doubt any Dr would prescribe or be allowed to put my T levels in the 3000+ ng/dL range.

Unfortunately I don't know if I can keep pushing year after year with no changes. It's so hard to stay motivated when I am stuck at a level way below where I think I should have been years ago.

[Proximal]

That is a big part of why I am doing so much research. There is so much money and factors for this. My family life is already taxed heavily for time and money. And as the kids get older, that will likely get worse before it gets much better. Yet I also hate failing year after year..

Failing, how are you failing? Kids & family, that's a responsibility that men take on. I mean that as a compliment to you.

[bioshocked]

Failing, how are you failing? Kids & family, that's a responsibility that men take on. I mean that as a compliment to you.

I love my family and as a father I feel like a big success. Blessed with an awesome wife and awesome kids. I only meant my failures in the gym. My fitness failures. When I started, it felt like I was simply working on more goals to better myself. Now as I am almost 40, it feels like I might be chasing my youth. And I don't think that is a bad thing either. I just want to succeed in my fitness goals.

Right now I am still sick, so hard to focus on anything else at the moment. Unless I can find a more affordable way to get and maintain a TRT script and monitoring, it doesn't look like I will be doing it any time soon. I really don't want to spend $200+ a month for this.

[Proximal]

I love my family and as a father I feel like a big success. Blessed with an awesome wife and awesome kids. I only meant my failures in the gym. My fitness failures. When I started, it felt like I was simply working on more goals to better myself. Now as I am almost 40, it feels like I might be chasing my youth. And I don't think that is a bad thing either. I just want to succeed in my fitness goals.

Right now I am still sick, so hard to focus on anything else at the moment. Unless I can find a more affordable way to get and maintain a TRT script and monitoring, it doesn't look like I will be doing it any time soon. I really don't want to spend $200+ a month for this.

Sorry, should have been more clear - just sounded like you were being too tough on yourself.

Yeah, the costs can build. Speaking of which, I'm sure my wife and I will have more than a couple of discussions about Sermorelin, which is a growth hormone peptide that will run me another couple of hundred a month. Definitely wasn't in a position to spend this freely years ago.

Hope I helped a bit, get better.

[bioshocked]

Appointment went well. Had blood drawn today.

Lab order for:
CBC with Auto Diff
CMP - Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
Estradoil
Progesterone
DHEA-S
Testosterone , Free and Total
TSH - Thyroid Stimulating Hormone
PSA, Total (not sure what this is)
Vitamin D 25-OH

[bioshocked]

What?!?! Got the labs back and I have never seen my levels so low! And I have been trying to do everything I can with my eating, sleeping and exercise to keep it high. And it wasn't long ago this year that the levels were 429 for my total. But look at where they came in at from yesterday's blood draw. I know time of day and fasting or not can affect the results. Blood was drawn around 4:30p, up since 5:00am. Good sleep. I was only partially fasted. I think 4-5 hours instead of the 8+ they asked for. But I have never seen my results vary this much. How could they drop so much in just about a month? That test was around 11am and my last low of 390 was in the afternoon. But 263 now?!


Total T: 263 ng/dL
Free T: 4.44 ng/dL

Albumin 4.7 g/dL (high, range 3.0 - 4.6)
Progesterone: 0.49 ng/dL
Estradiol: 23.9 pg/mL
DHEA-S: 249.0 (high, 48-244)
RBC: 4.70 (4.70-5.90)
WBC: 5.52 (2.9-11.60)
Urea Nitrogen/Creatinine: 23 (high, <=20) could this be from Creatine supplimentation?

[dreadnok89]

Put it this way, if your making it to the gym I and staying in shape I'd say your body is fine. I was at 99,total test at 29 and never did any type of steroids . I couldnt get out or bed let alone think about going to the gym.