Need help to do things right

[Alison.g]

Summary:
I have been on testosterone Enanth 500mg EW dose for last 6 months and I feel that I need a more stable and reasonable TRT dose. Any help is appreciated.


Full Story of why I started using 500mg and stay on it for 6 months!
9 years ago I suffered from bad ED (I was 30 at that time), Initially used Viagra and Cialis and was happy with them but then those stopped working on me. As a frustrated man I took I started tripling the doses (still nothing happened). Doctor did all the tests possible (every part of my body was good, no heart issues, I was not fat, I didn't drink, I never smoked, I never did drugs) My relationship started suffering, my work started suffering, my life started suffering, my kickboxing (the only sport I loved) started suffering. I started feeling weaker and weaker. When these pills stopped working I went to doctor heartbroken asking him to do blood test again. He did it again and again and again but my test level was low as 70 years old but still in the range of 'provided range scale' 1% above the last scale. He never said I had low testosterone and sent me to a urologist, him did the same thing and sent me to a psychologist , I went to a psychologist for about an year (while still suffering from ED) then involved my partner and took her to psychologist. Nothing worked, went back to urologist and he prescribed injections for my penis to get erections. Being scared of injections I know how hard it was for me to inject medicine into my penis while many times hurting like hell. No pleasure for me, just erected penis full of pain for my gf (I did it for her, it was hell for me) then penis injection started giving me semi erections (most likely due to the pain I was in during the erections). Went back to doctor, doctor closed the file saying the reason of his ED is 'unknown' (trust me, these was the exact words he wrote on my file) where the idiot should have known that my test levels was down to bottom. So I went to 3 other doctors in different cities, as soon as they will see the test levels in range they will say no test levels are in range and you are healthy so get mental health. Months past, I tried everything, exercise, gym, healthy eating, everything I could to get rid of my ED and nothing worked. So once again I went to a doctor, lucky or unlucky this time my test levels came below the standard level line. He said he can give me some Testosterone injection (testosterone Cyp) and I can take one injection every 2 weeks from nurse, it was 100mg injection, so basically 100mg testosterone every 2 weeks. I knew nothing about trt so I was happy to have hope (was not consultanted at all in regards to natural production being shutdown neither HCG was given), Anyway I took the first injection, waited two weeks (didn't feel a thing) went back to get the 2nd injection and Doctor refused saying he will be in trouble giving me testosterone at this young age regardless of my levels unless it is validated by a uralogist, so I went to another uralogist and told him the story, he called the doctor an idiot and sent me home saying seek mental health as at this age I should be able to get my testosterone back naturally.


At that point things between my girlfriend and me was at the breaking point. My penis size started to reduce (not joking, literally), I said to her one night to go and leave me while I was crying, she didn't reply, but after a month or so I found out that she was cheating on me (a long relationship went to shit). I don't blame her at all, she did what she could. When we started seeing we had the best sex of our lives. I left the house, went to suicide and so close to jump off the building because I knew I am going to die alone. I was put on antidepressants and sleeping pills which kinda prevented me to commit a suicide and it helped me to find another job. So I started working again as a zombie, stopped talking to family and friends, I hated myself but again wanted to give it another try, started gym again with zero energy, saw a doctor, he was getting medicines from compounding pharmacies and knew a bit about testosterone etc. he said my test levels are down to bottom but still he doesn't have authority to give me Testosterone, the only thing he can do is hit me with few things such as HCG and Clomid, well I took that, nothing changed, he Also gave me DHEA, if I remember I paid about more than $10,000 for that treatment in total as it also included the laser ray blast on your penis which could heal ED. Well Clomid/HCG or laser ray blast on penis, nothing worked. but he said it may or may not work and obviously it didn't work. I was already depressed, started looking for drugs to give me peace because I really believed I will never have a family or ever be able to satisfy a woman and I will definitely die alone. I everyday inside I was dying, I see any girl I like and feel miserable because I could never go forward or even talk to girls knowing that I am going to end up in embarrassment so what's the point. Completely lost interest in sex, didn't even masterbate or have will to masterbate for months and still didn't feel anything. I don't know what was holding me back not to commit suicide, always I have been so close, so close guys, but at the end I will backoff. In the mean while I was continually on antidepressants and working with psychologist 2 sessions a week supported by my work as I fucking couldn't afford it, I was a zombie.


Now check this out, About 6 months ago I said to myself, I will have to find a solution for my problem. I stopped going to psychologist as for years it didn't help, I stopped going and seeking another doctor to go through all those tests and pain again but I thought There is no way someone or something cannot help me in my situation. Come on its 2019..... I started reading about ED, I read that if pills or injections don't work on penis there is still a thing called penis implants as a final solution (put my hopes up). Reading through I came across so many articles talking about low testosterone and it's issues on human body. So I decided, hey I have low testosterone and I don't have anything to lose, how about I just inject testosterone myself. What wrong can happen? I will die? Sure I am already dead. Kill me sooner than later. I got some Testosterone Enanth, I loaded 250mg and shaved it in my leg saying exact these words 'fuck my life, I am done with it' , well started injecting twice a week. (I know that's not TRT dose but I didn't know a thing, I read that on bodybuilding forums and thought fuck it what I have to lose). I read that Testosterone Enanth takes 3-4 weeks to kick in so I waited, waited, week 3 comes. Fuck..... I am horny, I felt like having sex first time, my brain started feeling sexually dirty, my sexual fantasies were coming back, my heart started beeping so fast...... Fuck is this really happening, I waited couple of days and my penis will get erections when I even think about something dirty, oh my god my penis was getting erections...... I just don't know how to describe my feelings. I waited to see how long I will last, week 3, day 3 I sat down and started masterbating because I couldn't hold it (the best masterbation I had in years and years) fuck I cried and cried looking at my erected penis, it wanted me to do it again, I did it again and again. Next day I am horny again fuck me it's really happening ..... My penis is erected during night, morning woods are regular. Oh god it's really happening.... I started losing my mind, started touching myself everyday few times a day like I just missed it so much (yes I missed masterbation)...


I felt strong, I knew I will be rock hard with a girl but just to avoid any anxiety situation, I started booking girls thinking i don't care about embarrassment with them but had sex like a porn star, had 3some and had sex with both girls at the same time while maintaining my erection. Sex was awesome. I last so long then I could even remember in my life, started bookings girls every night for months (spent all my savings, didn't care, I was having sex or should I say I was able to have sex made me a different person) once savings ended I started dating again. went with few girls, had sex, started seeing girls everywhere. Gained confident at work again (before I was easily bullied and so easy to break), everyone at work is like wtf happened to you, 3 months ago met a beautiful girl and dating her since. Sex is awesome, I started kickboxing again, I am so strong so powerful so much energy and full of fuel I just don't know who to share this with? Guys be part of my happiness. I just want to scream and scream and tell everyone how awesome my life has become and hey my penis is fully functional hahahhaha ....... I have sex (without any pill or bloody injections), I also masterbate everyday alongside sex still want more. I have the best fitness in life and I feel like a king........


Guys .......... What the fuck........ Why the fuck I didn't do this before, I can't believe I was going to commit a suicide where the solution was sitting right next to me the whole time.


I just wanted to share.... I am just so fucking happy, my life has changed, completely...............


I wish one doctor could have figured out my issue so I didn't have to suffer for long 9/10 years of my life (I could have done so much in life, I could have been a successful businessman, successful husband and a father)


well I am excited to start over again


Testosterone Enath is my baby, my love, my life, my everything.. If using steroids kills you (all Doctors told me) I will be so happy to die any day then living depressed, suicidal, misreble ED embarrassed life. I am still learning, just glad I didn't kill myself and somehow injected testosterone into my body to end the suffering of my 9 long years.............. Guys I love everything again, I love weather, I love birds , I love the girl I am seeing crazy about her...


Thanks for listening guys, the purpose of this whole story is, before I break up with my ex I was on this forum reading through stuff, I can't remember my account but there was something stuck in my mind that TRT might be the solution to my problem. Obviously everything went shit from there and I lost track on everything for years, anyway guys I need some guidelines to how to continue my self TRT and don't suffer from ED again, unfortunately I have been on same dose 500mg test a week which is way higher than a regular TRT dose. I would like to know what you guys think as I have been on this dose for last 6 months and having a dream life, how do i do a proper TRT without losing benifits, this is more like bodybuilding doses and I don't want that... Please guide me with the doses and what testosterone should I use or in general what should I do now? I don't want my life to go back to shit,


In all honesty I am so scared to change anything in my life especially the dosage of testosterone, thought of dropping the dose last month but got scared thinking what if I lose the sex again and what I have right now, the awesome girl, awesome life, awesome health so I kept going and going, now it's 6 months and I feel like I need to come out of the Honeymoon period, calm down and think about trt professionally as it is going to be for life, that's where I need help from you guys.


Thank you guys..... any feedback advice is welcome

[HoldMyBeer]

Welcome to the forum OP
Don't be offended if you don't get too many responses, that post length is daunting
I am glad you are feeling better. That sucks about those urologists, what country do you live in? Also, you mentioned depression and suicide, idk if too many people are going to want to risk giving you advice given that is the something to worry about if that advice doesn't work. Read the TrT section, educate yourself, and continue seeing your psychologist throughout the process.
I have dealt with depression before myself, it creeps up on you, by the time you realize your depressed it already killed your motivation so you don't have the drive to do anything about it.

[Alison.g]

Welcome to the forum OP
Don't be offended if you don't get too many responses, that post length is daunting
I am glad you are feeling better. That sucks about those urologists, what country do you live in? Also, you mentioned depression and suicide, idk if too many people are going to want to risk giving you advice given that is the something to worry about if that advice doesn't work. Read the TrT section, educate yourself, and continue seeing your psychologist throughout the process.
I have dealt with depression before myself, it creeps up on you, by the time you realize your depressed it already killed your motivation so you don't have the drive to do anything about it.

Hey, I understand, I wanted to open my heart out, last 6 months of my life have been so different, I feel like I was born again, if things go wrong from here I have enough encourage to cope with it as I have seen the worse but on the other hand I do feel that I need to drop my dose from 500 to somewhat reasonable trt dose, the sexual benifits I got from testosterone Enanth are stunningly mind blowing, I just don't know how to show how happy I am right now. Sorry I didn't mean to freak you guys out hahahahhaa and definitely far from committing a suicide I might write another post just focusing on my self TRT and nothing else if that's okay so everyone can be comfortable sharing their thoughts.

[Windex]

If you summarize your question in 2-3 sentences you are going to get feedback + support.

Lots of people here are able to help, but they are not going to spend 15 minutes reading your novel.

[Youthful55guy]

I skimmed through the first part of your post and I read the second half and that was enough to convince me that you did indeed have Low T and you have morons for doctors. This was probably made worse by antidepressants which are well documented for suppressing natural testosterone . In particular the doctor that prescribed 100mg every other week should have his/her license revoked. That dose and frequency probably made the situation much worse. It shut down any natural production you had and the dose is not nearly enough for 2 week intervals (which is way too infrequent anyway).

I don't see any actual lab vales from those early tests. If you have them, please post them and don't forget to include the "normal" ranges. Every lab has different normal ranges due to variability in equipment, technique, and methods. You always have to interpret your values within the lab's normal range. Also, Total T is only a screening lab. If you have high or low Sex Hormone Binding Globulin (SHBG), I have high, Total T is a worthless number. You absolutely need to run the Free T test and base your dosing decisions on that lab. The Bioavailable T test is a good alternative. My experience is that it parallels Free T very well.

I also think (as you already know) that a dose of 250mg twice per week (500mg/week) is way too much and is not sustainable over the long run due to probably side-effects. In a nutshell, T some of your T converts to both Estradiol (E2) and Dihydrotestosterone (DHT). High Estrogen may bring on the low T symptoms again (the T to E ratio is very important). Symptoms of high DHT take a bit longer to become evident. DHT can cause benign prostate hyperplasia (BHP) and DHT drives red blood cell production much more than T and that will push your hemoglobin/hematocrit over the top of the normal range. This thickens the blood and can cause blood clots and/or stokes in extreme cases.

You will get different advice from different people's perspective on dialing in dose. I suggest you read the stick post I made on "Best Practices in TRT" for my suggested approach which reflects about 8 years of very successful TRT. In a nutshell, I suggest you circumvent the doctors and purchase your own labs out of pocket. If you live in a state where this is allowed (most do), they are efficient and relatively low cost for the basic labs. For example Free and Total T is $30.45 plus a $5 lab draw fee. Explore the site and you will see they offer ala carta lab tests and bundled "panels" for comment tests. The $5 dab draw fee covers all the labs within a single order. Here's a link to the lab web site I use: https://www.discountedlabs.com/. They will place your order with LabCorp and you will go to one of their draw stations for the blood sample. LabCorp has numerous draw locations through out the USA.

My advice stems from many years of TRT experience with my first 3 years being treated by one of the top TRT docs in the world, so the program is basically his with a few trial and error tweaks by me and so many lab tests I need a spreadsheet to keep them straight (really). In a nutshell, I suggest every 3 day (E3D) day dosing. Compared to weekly dosing (as many guys use), this allows guys to drop down on the injected volume and that allows guys to switch to a much smaller needle (assuming you also drop the total dose you are currently using). I use a 28G 1/2 inch insulin syringe. There's very little sensation from the stick. You will find that with more frequent dosing, guys can get buy with lower overall weekly average doses than less frequent dosing. For example, your 250mg every 3.5 days dose (500 mg weekly) split into E3D dosing is about 214mg, or about 55% of your dose. My experience is that an E3D dose of 50mg (which equates to about 117mg per week), even with my high SHBG, is enough to keep my Free T at the high end of normal for a 30 year old guy. The key learning point is that with large weekly doses, you will need to use enough T to skyrocket your T levels out of range the first half of the injection cycle in order to keep it in range at the end of the injection cycle (day 7 in your case). By lowering the dose and increasing the frequency, you keep your T at a more steady level and always within the normal range. This helps to reduce side-effects.

Regarding goals, for medically necessary TRT (not bodybuilding), your goal is to keep your free T in the upper 75th percentile for a 30 to 40 year old guy. The lab draw should be done on the day you are due for your next injection but it should be before the injection. While on TRT, the time of day is unimportant because you have totally suppressed natural production, you don't need to worry about first thing in the morning testing.

Hope this helps!

[alphaman]

Y55G are you doing subcutaneous injections?

Why this instead of intramuscular?

[Alison.g]

I

Hope this helps!

Thanks you so much for detailed response,

- Agree that it could have been managed by doctors better, I suffered for 9 years just because Doctors couldn't understand the issue including the urologist (the doctor who prescribed test to me was retired later, he was pretty old)

- I don't mind paying for labs, really I would love to, unfortunately it is not allowed in Australia, I don't know anyway I can get my blood test done without a doctor. Before my first injection I went to doctor and asked him to do the full test but he only did Testosterone Test (didn't do E2, Free test, prolectin etc) by reading online I knew I needed those tests but when I asked he refused and told me I am still young for anything extreme of that nature (to be honest that was last try, same night I shaved 250mg test in me). If any oz here knees how to get the blood test without the doctor please help and let me know as I have looked everywhere, the max I could find was a spit test for $250 but I am not sure how reliable they are?

- I completely feel ok with E3D injection, I have lost the fear of injections after ED penis injections was given so the frequency really doesn't bother me, I am.using 23G 1.5 needle currently.

- Thanks for explaining the side effects and correct dose selection criteria, I am using T-Enanth and do feel like E2 is through the roof (no gyno symptoms probably because I have been using Aromasin 12.5mg whenever I felt my nipples were getting hard) so far in 6 months I used it about once or twice every week. I really need to read more and more and understand this fully. If high E2 can bring low testosterone symptoms again do you think all my sex drive is coming from the aromasin?

To summarise from Monday, I am going to reduce the dose to 125mg E3D and will pray for everything to stay the way it is. Really i feel the best in 9 years, also I was thinking to do testosterone Cyp, what do you think? I think the test Cyp is done on trt for its longer ester time, I think. In addition as you describe in your post, I didn't really add an HCG , what are my chances to add HCG now after 6 months dosing on 500mg test.

- I also feel like getting off antidepressants now, I feel like I don't have any depression now but my psychologist wants me to wait, I feel the best right now.

Is there anything else I need to consider if I can't get my blood tests?

Really appreciate you reading it through, you are the first guys I ever told this, not even my close friends know I inject testosterone.

I think I talk too much I will shut up now

[Alison.g]

If you summarize your question in 2-3 sentences you are going to get feedback + support.

Lots of people here are able to help, but they are not going to spend 15 minutes reading your novel.

I updated the question, put a summary on the top, thanks for suggesting.

[Alison.g]

Y55G are you doing subcutaneous injections?

Why this instead of intramuscular?

I will let Y55 answer it but here what I read in his post

I MUCH prefer and recommend a smaller 28G needle.
I recommend injection straight (no angling) into the upper middle quadriceps muscle

You can read all in here https://forums.steroid.com/hormone-r...rting-trt.html
It's gold

[Youthful55guy]

Y55G are you doing subcutaneous injections?

Why this instead of intramuscular?

No, I do shallow IM into the upper outer thigh area as in the diagram in my "Best Practices" sticky post. I use a one piece 28G 1/2 inch long needle and go straight in. My doctor actually recommended a 25G 5/8 inch needle, but gave me some of the 28G to try and I prefer the smaller size. Draw up is slower, but it is more comfortable to use. Keep in mind that I am only injecting about 0.25 mL, so draw up with a 28G is only about a minute.

[Youthful55guy]

Thanks you so much for detailed response,

- Thanks for explaining the side effects and correct dose selection criteria, I am using T-Enanth and do feel like E2 is through the roof (no gyno symptoms probably because I have been using Aromasin 12.5mg whenever I felt my nipples were getting hard) so far in 6 months I used it about once or twice every week. I really need to read more and more and understand this fully. If high E2 can bring low testosterone symptoms again do you think all my sex drive is coming from the aromasin?

It is very difficult to control E2 without labs to guide you. Some say you can, but I cannot. As for how you feel and for ED, I believe it's the T to E ratio that is important. Guys need E2 too for normal erections, the goal is to get Free T into the normal range all the time (even with you peak 24 hour vales as well as your 72 hour nadir values). That way conversion to E2 should stay within normal physiological ranges. High E2 can cause it's own set of problems, particularly for those who are stacking T with certain anabolic steroids that that progesterone-like activity (nandrolone for example). The combination can cause breast development if E2 is not well controlled. If there is high prolactin in the mix, it can even lead to lactation. I've seen videos, not a pretty sight.

To summarise from Monday, I am going to reduce the dose to 125mg E3D and will pray for everything to stay the way it is. Really i feel the best in 9 years, also I was thinking to do testosterone Cyp, what do you think? I think the test Cyp is done on trt for its longer ester time, I think. In addition as you describe in your post, I didn't really add an HCG , what are my chances to add HCG now after 6 months dosing on 500mg test.


While, 125mg E3D is a small step in the right direction, it is just a small step. Just to offer an example, my standard dose is about 50mg E3D, and that is enough to keep my Free T in the upper end of normal for a 30 year old guy (I'm 62). I also have very high SHBG, which makes getting Free T up even more of a challenge. My E2 has never been a problem, although I've toyed with anastrozole a few time. Bottom line for me is that I found it too difficult to micro manage my E2 and that the best management of E2 is simply to keep Free T within the normal range at all times. In fact, for reasons unknown, I'm going through a period of low E2 without any use of E2 control. Somewhat perplexing, but I feel OK.

- I also feel like getting off antidepressants now, I feel like I don't have any depression now but my psychologist wants me to wait, I feel the best right now.

I have no experience with antidepressants, so I have no advice to give. Wish you the best in whatever your decision. Keep in mind that while antidepressants do suppress natural T production, you are already fully suppressed with the TRT.

Is there anything else I need to consider if I can't get my blood tests?

Seek advice from others in your country for their experience. I's sorry to hear that you can't get them on your own. That really sucks! Some states here are also restrictive on self testing. I think it's a medical industry lobby that is looking out for the financial interests of physicians and not the best interest of their patients. Knowledge is power!

Really appreciate you reading it through, you are the first guys I ever told this, not even my close friends know I inject testosterone.

I like that we are anonymous in the forum. It's easier to be open and honest.

See replies in blue font.

[Youthful55guy]

Oh, I missed your question regarding T-eth vs. T-cyp. They are generally interchangeable. From my research, both carry about the same amount of molecular T per 100mg of ester: 70mg for T-eth and 69mg for T-cyp.

T-eth has a shorter half life of 4.5 days vs. 8 days for T-cyp. However, I've seen variable estimates for the half lives.

I don't think there is a cut and dry answer. Most guys in the USA use T-cyp, simply because it is more common for doctors to prescribe and for pharmacies to carry in stock.

[Youthful55guy]

A last though, consider dropping your dose gradually, perhaps by 10mg every 2 injections (6 days). It will be a long process, but it might be easier to handle. My recent experience from an experiment in High T dosing (I was simply curious) is that 10% to 20% drops about every 6 weeks were easy to tolerate. My conclusion from this experiment was that my standard dose of 50mg E3D is about perfect for me. This is just slightly higher than what my original doc stared me at (40mg E3D = 93mg/week).

See the table below for results from my recent High T experiment. Note that I included some older data for reference and that I aborted the experiment at about 163mg/week because I had some unrelated medical issues to deal with and want to drop back rapidly to the low end of my normal dose range (40mg E3D = 93mg/week). I stepped the dose down from a high of 245mg/week to 204mg to 180mg to 163mg to 120mg per week for 4 weeks (not tested) and then to 93mg where I am at now. I did not have any problems.

[Alison.g]

Thank you so much Y55, one question about the use of HCG ? Do you think I still have a chance with HCG? Or should I just ignore it for now. I mean I have suppressed for last 6 months...

[Youthful55guy]

Thank you so much Y55, one question about the use of HCG? Do you think I still have a chance with HCG? Or should I just ignore it for now. I mean I have suppressed for last 6 months...

Yes, I use HCG and have from nearly the beginning about 8 years ago. I first dialed in my T dose, which didn't take long and then layered in HCG. Can't remember the exact timing, but I think it was around 8 weeks into TRT. I started out and stayed at 500 IU for many years and then about mid 2015 bumped it up to 700 IU per week and then sometime in 2018 bumped it up again to 1,050 IU per week. I always split my doses into at least 3 per week, usually E3D dosing with the T-cyp. I bumped it up for two reasons:

1) I came across two medical publications that indicate around 1000 IU per week is about the right amount to bring testicular function back to normal in healthy male volunteers taking 200 mg T-eth per week.

2) I established a dependable supply of branded Pregnyl HCG. First with overseas suppliers and then legally with my GP who has taken over management of my TRT protocol. Loved my old world-renowned hormone doc, but he was costing me an arm and a leg and I had to drive 2 hours each way to see him. I now have a very supportive local GP.

I do recommend regular use of HCG for all guys on TRT for a variety of reasons. First, the cosmetic aspect of not having your testicles shrink to pre-pubescent sized grapes should not be ignored. Secondly, there are other glands in the body that have LH receptors and they need the stimulation that HCG provides as a replacement for LH. The adrenals for example need HCG to continue to produce DHEA. Two other important glands are the seminal vesicles and the prostate. Together they produce about 80% to 90% of the ejaculate volume. The SV produce about 60% and the prostate about 20%-30%. They require both T/DHT and LH to function properly. Without replacing the lost LH signal, many guys find that after a year or two on TRT that their seminal volume diminishes quite a bit. As most guys know from experience, the size of the load does positively influence pleasure.

If it's fertility you are concerned with, then HCG can also help maintain fertility with TRT as long as you were fertile to begin with.