Insulin Use For Bodybuilding - question/answer thread

[charger69]

Obs is running Humalog , rapid acting insulin (you get a full peak in like 30 mins then its out of system), your using Novalin r, a short acting insulin which is a bit more steady and slower acting then Humalog , it kicks in in about 30 mins but does not peak until 1.5 to up to 2 hours later. If Obs takes 15iu then he's going to get 15iu in the blood stream rather quickly . If you take 15iu its going to be bit more slower and steady and easier to control blood sugar (it gives you time to drink your carb drink, get a meal in etc..)

also insulin sensitivity . if a guy is more insulin sensitive then he is able to much more efficiently drive glucose into muscle cells and that will lower blood sugar quicker then someone that is not quite as insulin sensitive. more chance of going hypo

I forgot, Obs likes livng on the edge.
Ok, so Novalog is fast acting which means that You have a very short window to cram the nutrients in the cells. Is there a point of saturation where you do not get the max absorption due to saturation?
Or is it like pinning ED as opposed to 2x week? Every day helps keep serum levels consistant however the body utlizes the same amount as if you pinned 2x wk there are just bigger peaks that only have more pronounced sides

[Obs]

Novolog is rapid acting insulin (thats thats the fastest acting insulin as far as when it kicks in)

Novolin R (r stands for 'regular') is a regular or 'short' acting insulin . not as fast as rapid acting in regards to when it kicks in


we can look at charts and see when these things peak and the onset , but really whats most important is when is the drug in my system and beginning to drive down blood sugar. this is the most important thing for non diabetics because when we go to take insulin we will have normal blood sugars to begin with, and they can get driven down to hypo rather quickly (whereas a diabetic may take this drug and have very high blood sugar to begin with)

Be damned. Yeah that chart was misleading

[charger69]

somewhere you wrote that you use slin of 2-3 iu in a fasted state to do cardio to promote fat loss.
If you do cardio in the afternoon, can you still use 2-3 of slin without carbs to improve fat loss?

[GearHeaded]

somewhere you wrote that you use slin of 2-3 iu in a fasted state to do cardio to promote fat loss.
If you do cardio in the afternoon, can you still use 2-3 of slin without carbs to improve fat loss?

yes. but you may need a slight amount more, depending on where your blood sugar level is before the cardio session. the point is to lower your blood sugar and do cardio in a 'slightly' hypo state to promote lipolysis.
you can get into a fat burning state much quicker when your glucose levels are low. insulin is just a quick tool to help you get there.

[AlphaMindz]

Ok.....so please correct me if I'm wrong, but the main benefit from using insulin is to help your pancreas while running HGH to help mitigate the constant demand for insulin...? And then there's a host of other benefits like delivering more nutrients to the muscle cells, accentuating meal timing (by exaggerating insulin responses pre and post WO with exo slin), lowering blood sugar to help metabolize stubborn fat and also to make your body better at accessing fat stores during cardio (I imagine this effect would be increased during lifting to some extent as well..?) Now here's the potential deal breaker for me, personally. Similar to what happens to your hpta when supplementing exo sex hormones, does that happen to an insulin users pancreas? Will your pancreas eventually stop making insulin (or severely cut back production) due to prolonged insulin usage? The other concern I'd have (although not as big as the first concern) is will using insulin in combination with HGH cause that bloated belly look that a lot of modern body builders are sporting?? I feel that the physiques in the 70's were among the most aesthetically pleasing physiques I've seen in body building, although granted those guys were no where near as big as the guys from the 90's 2000's and today.. I personally would like to compete in men's physique and that's partly due to not wanting that bloated hgh/insulin gut which one pretty much HAS to accept if they wanna compete with the big boys in today's body building. However, I'm still so far away from achieving that goal so by the time I'm getting closer to that being a reality for me maybe my mind will change! (I'm not an idealist but a realist and know that once I'm balls deep I may easily say "f*ck it I have what it takes to beat this big f*ckers.. Bloated gut? So be it" lol.. Anyway, I'm digressing...Those are my main two questions atm so pls when you find the time drop a knowledge bomb on me as I know you do so well brotha lol!

Wanted to add - how long have you been using hgh/slin cause from your avatar it doesn't seem as though you have that bloated belly thing going on..?

[GearHeaded]

Ok.....so please correct me if I'm wrong, but the main benefit from using insulin is to help your pancreas while running HGH to help mitigate the constant demand for insulin...?

this is "A" benefit , but not the main benefit. yes HGH use will cause your pancreas to have to crank out more insulin and if doing high dosages long term that might wear our the beta cells of the pancreas and thus cause diabetes . adding exogenous insulin gives the pancreas a rest.

The MAIN benefit of insulin use in bodybuilding is for its Anabolic effect. you can run insulin solo with no HGH or AAS use and get anabolic effects from it (if the timing and nutrient intake is on point). its ability to open up muscle cells to take in glycogen, amino acids, creatine, and other nutrients is the the starting point and basis for muscle growth. Without that ability we can never grow.

And then there's a host of other benefits like delivering more nutrients to the muscle cells, accentuating meal timing (by exaggerating insulin responses pre and post WO with exo slin), lowering blood sugar to help metabolize stubborn fat and also to make your body better at accessing fat stores during cardio (I imagine this effect would be increased during lifting to some extent as well..?)

again driving these nutrients into muscle cells is the primary benefit of insulin. using insulin at low dose to lower blood sugar before a cardio session is not the 'main' use of insulin in bodybuilding at all, but it is a tactic that guys can use (over and above normal insulin use)..
the insulin use during your workout is not at all geared towards lowering blood sugar or fat mobilization. Blood sugar generally increases during this time as we take in our pari workout nutrition , it then decreases towards the end of the workout.. the main goal here is to shuttle as much nutrients into the muscle cells as possible while there is a ton of blood flow going to the muscles . your taking advantage of all this blood flow to a given area by taking in the insulin and the amino acids and nutrients, the blood is the transportation , when the transportation is going to an area you want to be at , then thats when we put the things in we want transported.

if during most the day my blood is hanging around my organs and other areas, then I workout my legs and 70% of all my blood is now going to my legs, then its at this time I want the anabolic substrates transported to my legs (insulin , glycogen, aminos, creatine etc..). your taking advantage of the 'free ride'

Now here's the potential deal breaker for me, personally. Similar to what happens to your hpta when supplementing exo sex hormones, does that happen to an insulin users pancreas? Will your pancreas eventually stop making insulin (or severely cut back production) due to prolonged insulin usage?

no, not that I'm aware of or informed about. the beta cells that produce insulin do not work in any way like the HPTA does. they are never 'shut down', even when you take exogenous insulin your beta cells still produce insulin when you eat, its just that now with exogenous insulin it does not have to produce near as much.

The other concern I'd have (although not as big as the first concern) is will using insulin in combination with HGH cause that bloated belly look that a lot of modern body builders are sporting??

the bloated extended stomachs are not directly from insulin use nor HGH use , its from uncontrolled levels of IGF (which yes HGH and insulin do elevate IGF) and mis use and abuse of slin and HGH. This is why timing your HGH and insulin use is very important . I'll explain.

If you have high levels of IGF floating around your blood stream and your crushing your workout or you just finished then there is going to be 'cell signaling' going on ,, IGF is going to respond to this signal and go to the muscle cells for repair and building. BUT IGF does not just go to build skeletal muscle cells, its not biased towards muscle . it will grow and repair any cells. if all we want is muscle cells to grow then you want to try and time things for your IGF to be elevated during and after your workout. thats hard to do.

now lets say you have super high levels of IGF floating around your blood stream and its your day off .. your just crushed a 3000 calorie meal. The intestines and the smooth muscles of the stomach and gut are all working real hard at digesting all that food. guess what is now sending the signal for cell growth ? yep, your gut. IGF is being signaled to repair and grow your gut. not what we want, not the timing that we want. thats why we shouldn't abuse and over do the HGH and insulin use.

Some of these guys are taking 100+ iu of insulin every day and 20iu of HGH.. they do it all day long, they don't time it. they are just flowing with IGF all all the time. their stomach as well as other things will grow.

this is why I only recommend bolus doses of insulin pre and post workout (along with HGH). that way your IGF levels spike towards the end of your workout or just after, and the cells signaling for repair will be muscle cell. this is also why I don't personally exceed more then 30iu of slin in a day. I don't want to have spill over at times that I don't have muscle cell signaling.

I personally would like to compete in men's physique and that's partly due to not wanting that bloated hgh/insulin gut which one pretty much HAS to accept if they wanna compete with the big boys in today's body building.

plenty of physique and classic physique guys run GH and Slin . they just run it in smaller doses pari workout ,, unlike some of the open class body builders that need to get huge and they take high doses all day long.

Wanted to add - how long have you been using hgh/slin cause from your avatar it doesn't seem as though you have that bloated belly thing going on..?

I've been running HGH for years off and on . started about 6 years ago. insulin use has been over the last couple years off and on.
I have a 29" waist . but I don't abuse shit and I've tried to educate myself on the science behind this stuff and how it works so I can avoid negative and unwanted side effects.
I also have clients that depend on my advice and I surely don't want to fuck their physique up or give them unwanted sides either . so its my job to try and know this shit as best I can

[AlphaMindz]

Ok, that's a lot to take in lol. I do appreciate your articulate style of writing and what you say makes perfect sense to me, but it's still a lot of info to digest! The fact that using exo insulin does NOT cause damage to your pancreas, and actually inversely, saves it from wearing out the beta cells if one is running growth is a huge selling point for me.

I was under the impression that guys who run insulin essentially become diabetic in the sense that they're body's become dependent upon exo insulin. The fact that this is NOT the case is very interesting to me.

Thank you for taking the time to properly explain this topic as I feel it is a very misunderstood part of bodybuilding. If one has decided to start running growth hormone for reasons discussed in this thread, and they want to do it safely and responsibly, from what I gather from your information then the safest way to do it is in combination with insulin.. It's a big step, though, IMO...I'm thinking I'm gonna start running growth at a relatively low dose 3ius/day and after some time I'll start experimenting with insulin in small doses to get familiar with it...Thanks for the insight mang

[GearHeaded]

nothing wrong with just running HGH for now. I suggest purchasing a blood glucose monitor and getting into the habit of monitoring your blood glucose BEFORE taking HGH and then continue monitoring it when taking HGH and see how much its effecting your fasted and post meal blood sugar.
you can pick one up at Walmart for like $10

[kelkel]

I have a 29" waist .

Prick.

[GearHeaded]

Prick?

thats a little over 8 inches

[kelkel]

thats a little over 8 inches

I guess with a tiny waist you can't have everything.

[JackMan017]

Thank you GearHeaded for this incredible information. While I have no plans to use it, it's an incredible feeling to be able to read about this information and learn. As well as all the other information you contribute to other posts, I feel blessed to have you here.

[charger69]

Thank you GearHeaded for this incredible information. While I have no plans to use it, it's an incredible feeling to be able to read about this information and learn. As well as all the other information you contribute to other posts, I feel blessed to have you here.

He’s just a computer so he doesn’t understand feelings. LOL


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[cousinmuscles]

Why would low blood sugar levels contribute to fat loss? What's the mechanism triggering the fat loss such that it can be emulated instantly with insulin?

Nice thread BTW

[GearHeaded]

Why would low blood sugar levels contribute to fat loss? What's the mechanism triggering the fat loss such that it can be emulated instantly with insulin?

Nice thread BTW

well despite what Palumbo recently said when he answered this same question just off the cuff without really thinking about it (he said it was a kooky idea to pin slin prior to cardio, even though coaches and gurus with higher levels of education and degrees them him promote this),, lower level of blood glucose induces lipolysis (if its for a short duration, long term low blood sugar may do the opposite by slowing down metabolism ).

think about it , if you got kids and you see them eat a shit ton of pop and candy or sweets, 30 mins later they are bouncing off the walls full of energy cause they have all that glucose/sugar to burn off for fuel.

glucose is energy, we store this energy in either the liver, muscle, fat, or the blood stream .. and the body utilizes it from these different areas dependent on the demand (e.g... weight training will burn up blood glucose AND muscle glucose/glycogen for energy).

If we are about to do steady state cardio, and we have a fairly decent amount of blood sugar floating around the blood stream to be used as energy, then your body will tap into that glucose for energy and then after that is used up it starts oxidizing fat for energy (it can actually somewhat use both at the same time). so if we go into a non glycogen dependent cardio session with lower blood sugar then we will burn more fat for energy . steady state LISS is a form of cardio that doesn't use glycogen , where as HIIT does . so if you did HIIT cardio then going into it with low blood sugar makes no difference, its just going to use muscle glycogen anyways. going into LISS cardio with lower blood sugar to start will help burn more fat

[charger69]

well despite what Palumbo recently said when he answered this same question just off the cuff without really thinking about it (he said it was a kooky idea to pin slin prior to cardio, even though coaches and gurus with higher levels of education and degrees them him promote this),, lower level of blood glucose induces lipolysis (if its for a short duration, long term low blood sugar may do the opposite by slowing down metabolism ).

think about it , if you got kids and you see them eat a shit ton of pop and candy or sweets, 30 mins later they are bouncing off the walls full of energy cause they have all that glucose/sugar to burn off for fuel.

glucose is energy, we store this energy in either the liver, muscle, fat, or the blood stream .. and the body utilizes it from these different areas dependent on the demand (e.g... weight training will burn up blood glucose AND muscle glucose/glycogen for energy).

If we are about to do steady state cardio, and we have a fairly decent amount of blood sugar floating around the blood stream to be used as energy, then your body will tap into that glucose for energy and then after that is used up it starts oxidizing fat for energy (it can actually somewhat use both at the same time). so if we go into a non glycogen dependent cardio session with lower blood sugar then we will burn more fat for energy . steady state LISS is a form of cardio that doesn't use glycogen , where as HIIT does . so if you did HIIT cardio then going into it with low blood sugar makes no difference, its just going to use muscle glycogen anyways. going into LISS cardio with lower blood sugar to start will help burn more fat

A little off topic, but can you explain the part about LISS and HIIT and the use of glycogen. Now I can see where some studies may be misleading.


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[GearHeaded]

A little off topic, but can you explain the part about LISS and HIIT and the use of glycogen. Now I can see where some studies may be misleading.

Sure. if you follow any pro bodybuilders you'll see some of them doing a depletion phase a week or so out from a show followed by a carb back load day before and of the show. The depletion workouts are for glycogen depletion. a lot of this is done in their weight training as thats glycogen dependent , but for cardio you'll see some of them switching over from steady walking on a treadmill cardio to doing a spin bike with high intensity or the step mill or super incline treadmill with higher intensity. Reason is for more glycogen depletion.

think of the difference between a brisk walk or riding a bike up a steep hill . they can both be considered cardio, but the steady walk does not use glycogen , where as the bike uses a ton of glycogen. the bike requires contraction of muscles to power the bicycle, thats one reason why it uses glycogen as its fuel source. the walk does not.

so LISS cardio or MISS cardio on a treadmill will burn up blood sugars and oxidize fat for fuel.. the HIIT training will use these as well but with the resistance and intensity amped up it taps into glycogen.

a lot of the studies comparing HIIT to LISS can be skewed because of this . and they are really only accounting for calories burned. Sure a high intensity session of HIIT for 20 mins will keep your body systems revved up for an hour or two after the session is over and thus burn more calories. But a MISS cardio session done for a steady hour may end up oxidizing more actual fat (more of the calories burnt and from fat and not some fat plus a bunch of glycogen).

of course none of these studies are generally done on bodybuilders using a bunch of gear, drugs , and fat burners .. and this would skew the results to an entirely different level.

[GearHeaded]

just in case anyone is wondering why someone would want to deplete glycogen before going into a bodybuilding show. I'll explain..

super compensation--

heres a crappy analogy.. think of a small bucket of water that physically can hold 1 gallon of water, but the water supply is such that it only fills it 3/4 of the way full and this is done by a signal that the bucket is sending to the faucet,, when the bucket gets down to half way it slowly trickles in more water until that 3/4 mark again. it aways does this slowly..
now say the bucket spills and is now completely empty, lets say the bucket and faucet see's this as a state of emergency and the faucet is turned on full blast, when the bucket gets to that 3/4 full mark and 'then' sends the signal to the faucet, which is going full blast, by time the faucet registers that signal and turns off , its actually filled the bucket way past the 3/4 mark and now the bucket is completely full.

it 'super compensated' because of the presumed state of emergency being without water all together..

Same with glycogen storage.

if we deplete all of our glycogen store this is a bit of an emergency situation to the body. Then we suddenly and rapidly with a bunch of Insulin and a shit ton of Carbs blast the body with all this glucose the body will then fill up these glycogen stores to a much greater capacity then they were before, because its super compensated.

now with a lot more glycogen and water in the muscle cells , the muscle will look much bigger, fuller, rounder, and harder.

and to tie things back to the topic of this thread, insulin can be used as a tool to help accomplish this

[charger69]

just in case anyone is wondering why someone would want to deplete glycogen before going into a bodybuilding show. I'll explain..

super compensation--

heres a crappy analogy.. think of a small bucket of water that physically can hold 1 gallon of water, but the water supply is such that it only fills it 3/4 of the way full and this is done by a signal that the bucket is sending to the faucet,, when the bucket gets down to half way it slowly trickles in more water until that 3/4 mark again. it aways does this slowly..
now say the bucket spills and is now completely empty, lets say the bucket and faucet see's this as a state of emergency and the faucet is turned on full blast, when the bucket gets to that 3/4 full mark and 'then' sends the signal to the faucet, which is going full blast, by time the faucet registers that signal and turns off , its actually filled the bucket way past the 3/4 mark and now the bucket is completely full.

it 'super compensated' because of the presumed state of emergency being without water all together..

Same with glycogen storage.

if we deplete all of our glycogen store this is a bit of an emergency situation to the body. Then we suddenly and rapidly with a bunch of Insulin and a shit ton of Carbs blast the body with all this glucose the body will then fill up these glycogen stores to a much greater capacity then they were before, because its super compensated.

now with a lot more glycogen and water in the muscle cells , the muscle will look much bigger, fuller, rounder, and harder.

and to tie things back to the topic of this thread, insulin can be used as a tool to help accomplish this

Oh mighty supercomputer, You never cease to amaze me! I may be slow, but the light bulb does come on. I read many studies on HIIT vs LISS and I did not remember them mentioning glycogen.
The glycogen depletion is Sort of the same action as when dehydrating. Drink a bunch of water and condition the body to release it and then stop. By the time the body realizes, you are on your way to dehydration.


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[Iron Frenchie]

Last time I checked my igf-1 I was 355 ng/ml. How beneficial would it be to use GH?

[GearHeaded]

Last time I checked my igf-1 I was 355 ng/ml. How beneficial would it be to use GH?

what compounds were you taking when that blood work was done ?

[Iron Frenchie]

what compounds were you taking when that blood work was done ?

Nothing at all.

[GearHeaded]

have you gotten a GH blood serum test done

[Iron Frenchie]

have you gotten a GH blood serum test done

Nope never had that done. My glucose serum was 62 mg/dl. Test was done the morning.

[cousinmuscles]

I'm not well read in studies on the subject but I get the point you make. I eat high fiber low carbs during cuts and it works well for me mostly because of the glycogen depletion, though when I measure my blood glucose before meals it is pretty equal as when bulking (I'll have to measure a lot to make sure it's the same though but I think my body regulates this pretty well) my assumption was that forcing the body to release glucose from storages and regulate itself in opposite terms from when bulking (being underfed vs overfed) is what creates a good fat loss environment. So the short term drop in blood glucose triggers this response? I know elaborate questions lol but I assumed it had little to do with blood sugar at any given moment but more so with being low on storages. So this is what confused me, insulin comes when you feed, wouldn't this also tell the body "I just got fed". I know from experience that having meals close to cardio sessions is a bad idea. But if lowering blood sugar doesn't signal "I'm fed" but forces you to release glucose later on and triggers the same "I'm underfed" response i then understand why. Might do some experiments

Re: Dave palumbo, I watch his stuff too but mostly for the news. I think he has good stuff to tell but sometimes you can just tell he's in it for the money and just pulls up a bunch of cookie cutter replies to questions lol.

[charger69]

I'm not well read in studies on the subject but I get the point you make. I eat high fiber low carbs during cuts and it works well for me mostly because of the glycogen depletion, though when I measure my blood glucose before meals it is pretty equal as when bulking (I'll have to measure a lot to make sure it's the same though but I think my body regulates this pretty well) my assumption was that forcing the body to release glucose from storages and regulate itself in opposite terms from when bulking (being underfed vs overfed) is what creates a good fat loss environment. So the short term drop in blood glucose triggers this response? I know elaborate questions lol but I assumed it had little to do with blood sugar at any given moment but more so with being low on storages. So this is what confused me, insulin comes when you feed, wouldn't this also tell the body "I just got fed". I know from experience that having meals close to cardio sessions is a bad idea. But if lowering blood sugar doesn't signal "I'm fed" but forces you to release glucose later on and triggers the same "I'm underfed" response i then understand why. Might do some experiments

Re: Dave palumbo, I watch his stuff too but mostly for the news. I think he has good stuff to tell but sometimes you can just tell he's in it for the money and just pulls up a bunch of cookie cutter replies to questions lol.

Your whole cut cycle is low carb? If so, you are a better man than me!


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[GearHeaded]

I'm not well read in studies on the subject but I get the point you make. I eat high fiber low carbs during cuts and it works well for me mostly because of the glycogen depletion, though when I measure my blood glucose before meals it is pretty equal as when bulking (I'll have to measure a lot to make sure it's the same though but I think my body regulates this pretty well) my assumption was that forcing the body to release glucose from storages and regulate itself in opposite terms from when bulking (being underfed vs overfed) is what creates a good fat loss environment. So the short term drop in blood glucose triggers this response?

Being in a chronically low blood sugar state and completely depleted of glucose and glycogen stores , Imo, is NOT the best situation for fat loss. These conditions will greatly effect the metabolism and make it slow way way down, as the body senses its in a "starvation" scenario. it will hold on to fat and slow the metabolism down to try and preserve stored calories.

This does not happen with a short temporary drop in blood sugar however.

Also , when you look at Pro bodybuilders like Phil Heath dieting down for Mr Olympia and trying to get down to 5% body fat. He does not want to deplete glucose or glycogen stores during this dieting phase . just the opposite, he eats every 2 hours. about 5500 calories per day (which is a very small deficit for him).. the reason he is constantly eating is to keep the metabolism revving along at full speed. heck he is burning 900 calories a day just in the digestion process of that food (thats like a 3 hour cardio session just right there). If he got too depleted , like your suggesting, then his metabolism would crash and slow way down, and he would not be able to burn body fat while eating a shit ton of food to maintain 255 pounds of muscle .

I'm on a Recomp/cut myself right now. I'm working with a pro level coach. he has me on 3300 calories. some days I'm consuming upwards of 500 grams of carbs. yet the goal with the diet is to get shredded by the end of my 12 week prep.

Sound confusing why I'd be eating so much while cutting ?? well there are ways to burn fat without starving yourself. most open class pro's eat a shit ton of food getting down to 5% body fat.

I know elaborate questions lol but I assumed it had little to do with blood sugar at any given moment but more so with being low on storages. So this is what confused me, insulin comes when you feed, wouldn't this also tell the body "I just got fed". I know from experience that having meals close to cardio sessions is a bad idea. But if lowering blood sugar doesn't signal "I'm fed" but forces you to release glucose later on and triggers the same "I'm underfed" response i then understand why. Might do some experiments

I think your thinking about this 'opposite' of the way it works.. when your blood sugar gets lowered your body will release Ghrelin , which is a hunger hormone, telling you to eat (I'm putting this in super simple terms ,, glucose metabolism system works in much more advanced ways then I'm explaining it).. you may also be getting natty pulses of GH (as there is a connection between Ghrelin release and growth hormone).

so low blood sugar, caused by the release of insulin does not signal "I'm Fed" , its signals "I'm hungry" .. now sure, insulin release itself happens as a result from eating a meal. but by time you've eaten this meal, digested in the stomach, turned into mash and it enters your small intestine so that nutrients can be absorbed into the blood stream (including sugars/carbs), and then your blood sugar raises and then the beta cells release insulin, and AFTER all that your blood sugar goes from being elevated to being lowered again. your ready to eat again . the insulin release resulted in "I'm hungry and need to eat" , NOT "I'm fed""

so again, insulin does not signal "I'm fed"" ,, just the opposite, by time its actually released and done its job, theres signaling for hunger hormones going on and your ready to eat again.

and its during this time , before you eat, when insulin has lowered blood sugar significantly enough to make you hungry, that you could benefit from doing cardio, get a natty pulse of HGH, and tap into stored body fat as fuel for the workout .
if your doing NON GLYCOGEN DEPLETING cardio.. steady state cardio. your body is going to hold onto that glucose it just stored as muscle glycogen so long as you don't do glycogen dependent exercise.

there is really a lot more to this and to glucose metabolism , insulin, etc.. hopefully that explains a little bit the angle I'm coming from

[cousinmuscles]

Being in a chronically low blood sugar state and completely depleted of glucose and glycogen stores , Imo, is NOT the best situation for fat loss. These conditions will greatly effect the metabolism and make it slow way way down, as the body senses its in a "starvation" scenario. it will hold on to fat and slow the metabolism down to try and preserve stored calories.

This does not happen with a short temporary drop in blood sugar however.

Also , when you look at Pro bodybuilders like Phil Heath dieting down for Mr Olympia and trying to get down to 5% body fat. He does not want to deplete glucose or glycogen stores during this dieting phase . just the opposite, he eats every 2 hours. about 5500 calories per day (which is a very small deficit for him).. the reason he is constantly eating is to keep the metabolism revving along at full speed. heck he is burning 900 calories a day just in the digestion process of that food (thats like a 3 hour cardio session just right there). If he got too depleted , like your suggesting, then his metabolism would crash and slow way down, and he would not be able to burn body fat while eating a shit ton of food to maintain 255 pounds of muscle .

I'm on a Recomp/cut myself right now. I'm working with a pro level coach. he has me on 3300 calories. some days I'm consuming upwards of 500 grams of carbs. yet the goal with the diet is to get shredded by the end of my 12 week prep.

Sound confusing why I'd be eating so much while cutting ?? well there are ways to burn fat without starving yourself. most open class pro's eat a shit ton of food getting down to 5% body fat.




I think your thinking about this 'opposite' of the way it works.. when your blood sugar gets lowered your body will release Ghrelin , which is a hunger hormone, telling you to eat (I'm putting this in super simple terms ,, glucose metabolism system works in much more advanced ways then I'm explaining it).. you may also be getting natty pulses of GH (as there is a connection between Ghrelin release and growth hormone).

so low blood sugar, caused by the release of insulin does not signal "I'm Fed" , its signals "I'm hungry" .. now sure, insulin release itself happens as a result from eating a meal. but by time you've eaten this meal, digested in the stomach, turned into mash and it enters your small intestine so that nutrients can be absorbed into the blood stream (including sugars/carbs), and then your blood sugar raises and then the beta cells release insulin, and AFTER all that your blood sugar goes from being elevated to being lowered again. your ready to eat again . the insulin release resulted in "I'm hungry and need to eat" , NOT "I'm fed""

so again, insulin does not signal "I'm fed"" ,, just the opposite, by time its actually released and done its job, theres signaling for hunger hormones going on and your ready to eat again.

and its during this time , before you eat, when insulin has lowered blood sugar significantly enough to make you hungry, that you could benefit from doing cardio, get a natty pulse of HGH, and tap into stored body fat as fuel for the workout .
if your doing NON GLYCOGEN DEPLETING cardio.. steady state cardio. your body is going to hold onto that glucose it just stored as muscle glycogen so long as you don't do glycogen dependent exercise.

there is really a lot more to this and to glucose metabolism , insulin, etc.. hopefully that explains a little bit the angle I'm coming from

Thank you for the long post. Yes I carb up too though I have made the mistake before of not letting go lol. I haven't carb cycled the traditional way instead I just lower my carbs gradually and when I feel too tired and at the point of losing strength I carb up as well as readjust so I don't go too low on calories... Works damn good although next time I'll try regular carb cycling.

How would you compare small doses of insulin pre cardio with using ghrp/ghrh pre cardio? The ghrelin release is much higher with peptides so if the point of lowering blood glucose is to trigger that response would be equally or better done with peptides.

Thanks again

[cousinmuscles]

Your whole cut cycle is low carb? If so, you are a better man than me!


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No I oversimplified it, for my last cut you can see in the August most improved thread, I gradually lowered carbs and then carbed up depending on whether I needed it. Wanted to try carb cycling but my work is physically demanding and my performance drops if I make sudden diet changes. I try to yoyo in that range of being low on stores and refilling but I don't know the science behind it, just know that it works, thus I ask here what it is I used peptides btw GHRPs and ghrhs. Not pharma grade but they make fat loss more efficient no doubt. Too bad that source went down lol.

[GearHeaded]

Thank you for the long post. Yes I carb up too though I have made the mistake before of not letting go lol. I haven't carb cycled the traditional way instead I just lower my carbs gradually and when I feel too tired and at the point of losing strength I carb up as well as readjust so I don't go too low on calories... Works damn good although next time I'll try regular carb cycling.

How would you compare small doses of insulin pre cardio with using ghrp/ghrh pre cardio? The ghrelin release is much higher with peptides so if the point of lowering blood glucose is to trigger that response would be equally or better done with peptides.

Thanks again

when on AAS carb cycling is the way to go for cutting or Recomp . When not on AAS, Keto is not a bad option. just keep experimenting and find what works best for you

regarding whats in bold --

I actually don't "compare" them , I use them all together..

here is my protocol , btw I usually get paid to give clients protocols like this

upon waking I inject my GHRPs ( I may use different ones or stack them together, like CJC no Dac with GHRP2 , or hex by itself, also may have a secretagogue like MK in there as well dosing morning and night).

This is going to give me pulses of GH and raise my blood serum levels of it. about an hour later, when my blood levels of GH should be high, I then inject 2iu of Exogenous HGH, this is going to go right to the blood stream (no pulse needed) and amplify and significantly raise my already elevated blood levels of GH. I then inject HGH-Frag, which will oxidize fat for fuel, as well inject the insulin.

I'll take Yohimbe, Green tea extract , and also inject 4Ml of Synthetine.

after doing all this 30 mins later I'm on the treadmill doing my MISS Cardio and in prime fat burning mode

[cousinmuscles]

Lol honestly I'd have to quit my job to time all that.

Tried keto in 2016 didn't find that it was that much better though who knows might try again in case I could have tweaked something for the better...

[charger69]

When carb cycling on slin, do you do it as normal and forget about the carbs required for slin?

[GearHeaded]

When carb cycling on slin, do you do it as normal and forget about the carbs required for slin?

its best to formulate your insulin use around your diet then it is to formulate your diet around your insulin use (theres some exceptions to this if your in a massive growth phase).. so the carbs that are specified in your diet should be used around the time of your insulin use. especially if your cutting, you really don't want to have to throw in an extra 50 carbs just cause you pinned 10iu of slin .

having said that keep in mind that protein also raises blood sugar. for the average person, nearly 20% of their protein gets converted to glucose and illicits an insulin response. so you don't 'have to' just have carbs with your insulin . make your diet and timing work, you may want to have your protein and some carbs with your insulin use.
BUT that all really needs to be dialed in and you should be on top of monitoring your blood sugar and know exactly what you need to eat to keep from going hypo.

I personally inject insulin quite often with NO carbs at all (I'm currently carb cycling as well, and carb back loading and only having carbs most days late in the day). but I know exactly what 5iu of slin will do to me when my post protein meal puts me at 105 blood sugar..

if you slin use is all revolved around your workout timing to drive glucose and nutrients into muscle cells as much as possible. Then I high recommend you get as many carbs as your diet will allow around this time

[charger69]

When taking AAS the synthesis of protein is more efficient therefore you do not need as much as off cycle. With this being said, using slin opens up the gates to the muscles. Should you increase protein intake on AAS and slin?

[GearHeaded]

As long as your diet calls for a sufficient amount of protein to provide muscle with enough "raw material" then you should not need to adjust your diet for your insulin use in regards to protein.

having said that , the protocol I generally recommend has 10g of EAAs and 10g of BCAAs for your first insulin dose and then 30-50g of whey isolate for your second insulin dose. this is providing you that 'extra' and guarantees the aminos are going to be there in the blood stream when you use your insulin. these 'extra' aminos are over and above your normal dietary protein.

[tarmyg]

Maybe you could create a list similar to the First AAS cycle thread. A lot of information in this thread and one could piece it together but a single post might be better. It would also minimize the possibility of a newbie error.

Great read this far.

[Paulpaul]

Some good info here, I just wanted to add, there are oral carb "pastes" that usually contain around 15 grams of "-ose". Most use Dextrose, and even if you cant swallow, or keep anything in your stomach, there is some buccal, sublingual(inside areas of mouth) absorption of the sugars without even swallowing it. Squirt it in, swish it around your mouth, and if able to swallow/keep in stomach, swallow.

Other advantages:
•They aren’t as tempting to snack on as candy is.
•They contain no fat, which can slow down digestion, or fructose, which has a smaller and slower effect on blood glucose.
•The commercial products are standardized, so it’s easy to measure out a dose of 10–15 grams of carbohydrate.

When treating hypoglycemia consuming a truckload of sugars wont hasten its effectiveness.
Typical symptoms of low blood sugar, which include trembling, sweating, heart palpitations, butterflies in the stomach, irritability, hunger, or fatigue.
Severe hypoglycemia can cause drowsiness, poor concentration, confusion, and even unconsciousness.

Play safe guys.

[BigB04]

So I started researching HGH and realized that some suggest that Insulin is needed along with HGH. As I read through this post I see that GearHead also commented that you also need to take Insulin to basically keep yourself from becoming a diabetic from HGH. Is this true with any amount of HGH or only higher amounts?

[GearHeaded]

So I started researching HGH and realized that some suggest that Insulin is needed along with HGH. As I read through this post I see that GearHead also commented that you also need to take Insulin to basically keep yourself from becoming a diabetic from HGH. Is this true with any amount of HGH or only higher amounts?

its going to be dose and timing dependent. if you only do say one 2iu dose in the morning and thats it, then your less likely to become insulin resistant as you would from taking multiple HGH doses throughout the day and having consistently higher levels of GH .
either way , if your running HGH you should be monitoring fasted blood glucose levels.

Things like MK677 which increases your natty pulse of HGH over multiple hours of the day (it has a long half life) will make nearly everyone who takes it insulin resistant and Most peoples fasting blood sugar goes up by 20 points.

insulin use helps with lowering blood glucose, but its also synergistic with HGH and will thus help stimulate more IGF production. its also going to help take the burden off the pancreas from having to produce so much insulin by itself.

[BigB04]

its going to be dose and timing dependent. if you only do say one 2iu dose in the morning and thats it, then your less likely to become insulin resistant as you would from taking multiple HGH doses throughout the day and having consistently higher levels of GH .
either way , if your running HGH you should be monitoring fasted blood glucose levels.

Things like MK677 which increases your natty pulse of HGH over multiple hours of the day (it has a long half life) will make nearly everyone who takes it insulin resistant and Most peoples fasting blood sugar goes up by 20 points.

insulin use helps with lowering blood glucose, but its also synergistic with HGH and will thus help stimulate more IGF production. its also going to help take the burden off the pancreas from having to produce so much insulin by itself.

Ive learned so much from this thread, did you happen to have an HGH thread like this too? Im totally new to HGH and considering giving it a shot but I want to make sure I know a lot more about it than I currently do. Something like this to read about HGH would be awesome.