north Korea

[Logan13]

What pisses me of is when people claim european countries are just pacifist countries that does "nothing". We choose not to take military action against other countries. That doesnt mean we doesnt help ALOT all over the world.

Maby just maby european countries has learned not to meddle after our age of imperialism.

I do still respect you as a knowledgable member of this forum, Johan.

[Kärnfysikern]

You never know, maybe the US will want a northern getaway for it's citizens some day. Knowing that you guys will just cave, perhaps it could happen with no loss to life..........

The only thing Im gonna reply with is that sweden was waring before anyone had a clue your beloved country even existed. We have seen far more war in our history than american can even dream of.
Europe has learned its lessons. Maby america will in the next few hundred years.

Open up your eyes and realise the shortcomings of your own country and maby someday you will realise why the rest of the world is so critical....

[Badgerman]

With great power comes great responsibility.

I agree

When it comes to North Korea........the proper military solution is to level it.......that is the only proper military solution........ I have come to that
conclusion........anything short of that is just fooling around and doesn't solve
anything.
That would have been the solution in Iraq......if the civilian population
doesn't have the will to control their leaders.......then they are willing participants.........we should have leveled both Afghanistan and Iraq.......
otherwise we should stay the hell out.

[Badgerman]

I also think every American should start arming themselves just in case

[Kärnfysikern]

Kind of ironic to try and use pacifist as a insult. Most of the world greatest minds has been firm pacifists. But then again what do they know

There puny minds are nothing compared to the immense intellects of people like Bush.

[Badgerman]

Kind of ironic to try and use pacifist as a insult. Most of the world greatest minds has been firm pacifists. But then again what do they know

There puny minds are nothing compared to the immense intellects of people like Bush.

Here's the problem with being a pacifist........you either need non-pacifist people to defend your right to profess such a philosophy.......or you need to sell your soul to remain neutral in the face of an enemy........look at the moral
compromises made by the church and "neutral" countries such as Switzerland
who sold thier souls to the Nazis.
To be a true pacifist you have to be willing to die for your belief.........are you willing to do that???
Because without a balance of power against evil .....pacifism is impossible
Right now..... the US balances against what I would consider evil men.......
sometimes the boundaries are a little grey for my taste........but who do you want running the world........the Chinese mafia??

[RA]

The only thing Im gonna reply with is that sweden was waring before anyone had a clue your beloved country even existed. We have seen far more war in our history than american can even dream of.
Europe has learned its lessons. Maby america will in the next few hundred years.

Open up your eyes and realise the shortcomings of your own country and maby someday you will realise why the rest of the world is so critical....

Your letting the argument cloud your judgement.

[RA]

oooo, johan. You know I love ya bro but I got to disagree on some things. If it wasnt for countries like the U.S., Sweden would be learning German as their primary laungage. Its not about being better or worse. Its just the way it is.

As far as N. Korea..ol fat kim is a bully and who would deal with him if we left the scene? Japan is looking to us right now to deal with the problem. No, the U.S. government has the responsibility because they have the power to do something. I still advocate standing up to him. I truly believe that he would back down. He doesn't want a war with the U.S.A.

I laughed tonight because my wife bought some Swedish vodka. I thought..hmm Im going to have to tell johan..apparently you guys make some good hooch.

[Kärnfysikern]

Your letting the argument cloud your judgement.

Huh?? quite possible I was semi worked up last night.

oooo, johan. You know I love ya bro but I got to disagree on some things. If it wasnt for countries like the U.S., Sweden would be learning German as their primary laungage. Its not about being better or worse. Its just the way it is.

Not realy. I would be more afraid that we would be speaking russian though. Because the russians would have beaten germany.

As far as N. Korea..ol fat kim is a bully and who would deal with him if we left the scene? Japan is looking to us right now to deal with the problem. No, the U.S. government has the responsibility because they have the power to do something. I still advocate standing up to him. I truly believe that he would back down. He doesn't want a war with the U.S.A.

All Im saying realy is that there is no way to deal with him. Putting sanctions on N.Korea kills the inocent people of N.Korea and going to war is to dangerous. The only (sane) thing that can be done is continue talks..The talks will probably get no where, but atleast it might prevent war.

I laughed tonight because my wife bought some Swedish vodka. I thought..hmm Im going to have to tell johan..apparently you guys make some good hooch.

Was it a bottle of "absolut vodka" I prefer finish vodka myself

[The OutLord]

It aint smart to bomb a country that has nukes. The second that country obtained nuclear weapons it became impossible to invade. The civilians are brainwashed in that country to believe the "Dear Leader" is a living God. A defector said If the U.S. invaded you will never see a smiling waving crowd like in Iraq. They will fight to the last man.

I agre 100%

And to everybody remaining

Is this "jing jong ding dong" or what his name was is so stupid that He can blow up half of the people of china,NK and SK????
and his army in one hit and "Jing jong ding dong" die to and china will of course say.
-:If you never put you fingers in the game it never hade happend!!
And the ww3 have started.

[IronFreakX]

TBH here, this is a messed up situation.

This is how Im thinking:

-We and Israel among other countries have nukes why not N Korea? True!

-But nukes should only be obtained by sane responsible leaders!! True

-Who are we to decide who is sane and who is not? they view us as the enemy and we the same

My suggestion would be to not bother anyone untill they bother us, but if we wait until they obtain them and then bother us(ie launch just one) the casualties will be too great.

so what do we do? If we go in, I DO NOT SUPPORT SOMETHING LIKE IRAQ, a job half done, when theres a threat you eliminate it not weaken it or give it a reason to be angrier nor do I want to see more Americans die for no reason.

Even though a little voice in my head shouts equality! it is not always possible as this is not a utopian world we live in.

In the end we MUST look after OUR best interest and hopefully the ends will justify the means, if they do not stop then eliminate them.

A hard desicion to reach but it MUST be made.

[PrimoPup]

Do not be surprised if one of their missiles accidentally blow up in their own country, (hint, hint)

[Kärnfysikern]

Here's the problem with being a pacifist........you either need non-pacifist people to defend your right to profess such a philosophy.......or you need to sell your soul to remain neutral in the face of an enemy........look at the moral
compromises made by the church and "neutral" countries such as Switzerland
who sold thier souls to the Nazis.
To be a true pacifist you have to be willing to die for your belief.........are you willing to do that???
Because without a balance of power against evil .....pacifism is impossible
Right now..... the US balances against what I would consider evil men.......
sometimes the boundaries are a little grey for my taste........but who do you want running the world........the Chinese mafia??

Im not realy a true pacifist. I someone attacks first then everything is allowed. I am totaly against beeing the one to throw the first punch though unless under VERY special circumstances.

imo violence is 9 times out of 10 just the way stupid people handle things. Educated people usualy refrain from fighting and so should educated countries.

[Logan13]

Here's the problem with being a pacifist........you either need non-pacifist people to defend your right to profess such a philosophy.......or you need to sell your soul to remain neutral in the face of an enemy........look at the moral
compromises made by the church and "neutral" countries such as Switzerland
who sold thier souls to the Nazis.
To be a true pacifist you have to be willing to die for your belief.........are you willing to do that???
Because without a balance of power against evil .....pacifism is impossible
Right now..... the US balances against what I would consider evil men.......
sometimes the boundaries are a little grey for my taste........but who do you want running the world........the Chinese mafia??

Good points, none of which were answered by the person it was addressed to.

[Logan13]

I agree

When it comes to North Korea........the proper military solution is to level it.......that is the only proper military solution........ I have come to that
conclusion........anything short of that is just fooling around and doesn't solve
anything.
That would have been the solution in Iraq......if the civilian population
doesn't have the will to control their leaders.......then they are willing participants.........we should have leveled both Afghanistan and Iraq.......
otherwise we should stay the hell out.

I totally agree with your proper military solution. As you know, I am a Bush supporter, but the war in Iraq has not gone down the way it should have IMO. We are letting politics interfere with what nees to be done, at the cost of soldiers lives I might add. If we are gonna go to war, we had better do what needs to be done from the beginning to the end to win it. This half ass fighting is driving me nuts. I know Johan thinks that diplomacy can work with everyone, but the fact of the matter is that it can not.

[Kärnfysikern]

Good points, none of which were answered by the person it was addressed to.

Did mahatma Ghandi sell his soul? has Dalai Lama sold his soul? Do those 2 people show that pacifism acomplish nothing? Are they hiding behind people willing to use force?

[Kärnfysikern]

I totally agree with your proper military solution. As you know, I am a Bush supporter, but the war in Iraq has not gone down the way it should have IMO. We are letting politics interfere with what nees to be done, at the cost of soldiers lives I might add. If we are gonna go to war, we had better do what needs to be done from the beginning to the end to win it. This half ass fighting is driving me nuts. I know Johan thinks that diplomacy can work with everyone, but the fact of the matter is that it can not.

No not realy, I dont think you can be diplomatic with a person like for instance Hitler. I belive force is neccesary sometimes.
But only under the most pressing circumstances where no other option is possible and not using force will harm more people than using force.

[Kärnfysikern]

If a person breaks into my home and threatens to hurt someone in my family I would break there neck in a instance if i had the chanse.

I would not however go out on the streets and break the neck of someone that looks like a robber just because he might break into my home.

[Logan13]

The only thing Im gonna reply with is that sweden was waring before anyone had a clue your beloved country even existed. We have seen far more war in our history than american can even dream of.
Europe has learned its lessons. Maby america will in the next few hundred years.

Open up your eyes and realise the shortcomings of your own country and maby someday you will realise why the rest of the world is so critical....

That's great Johan, but I am not concerned with your countries actions or inactions from hundreds of years ago. BTW, what wars has Sweden fought in, does this go back to the days of wooden boats and swords? I realise the shortcomings of my country, which are heavily outweighed by the positive. I just do not appreciate some pacifist country throwing their opinions around as though we are beholden to listen to them. And as for the previous unanswered question regarding "valuing lives more", I feel that it is fair to say that the lives you value so dearly are your own. I'm sorry, Perhaps it is just American to perceive pacifism as cowardice.

[Logan13]

If a person breaks into my home and threatens to hurt someone in my family I would break there neck in a instance if i had the chanse.

I would not however go out on the streets and break the neck of someone that looks like a robber just because he might break into my home.

Better scenario: How about when the person threatens to hurt your family, rape your wife and kill your children. Do you wait until after he has done it or is in the process of doing it to do something about it? This scenario better represents the current situation. Perhaps you will not do something about but would prefer that your big neighbor deal with the situation, and then point the finger at him afterwards in crticism for his actions......

[kdawg21]

So what ever happened to the Politics, and religion forum, I swear you go on vcation for a week and everything changes

[Kärnfysikern]

Better scenario: How about when the person threatens to hurt your family, rape your wife and kill your children. Do you wait until after he has done it or is in the process of doing it to do something about it? This scenario better represents the current situation. Perhaps you will not do something about but would prefer that your big neighbor deal with the situation, and then point the finger at him afterwards in crticism for his actions......

Depends on who makes the threat. If its someone small and insignificant compared to me I wouldnt waste a minute of my time(that represents this situation best).
If its someone that seem serious(russia, china) I would be carefull and watch over my family. I would not slit his throath because he has a big mouth.

Also N.Korea has only threaten to respond to any violence against them. They havent threatened to do anything against america.

[Kärnfysikern]

That's great Johan, but I am not concerned with your countries actions or inactions from hundreds of years ago. BTW, what wars has Sweden fought in, does this go back to the days of wooden boats and swords? I realise the shortcomings of my country, which are heavily outweighed by the positive. I just do not appreciate some pacifist country throwing their opinions around as though we are beholden to listen to them. And as for the previous unanswered question regarding "valuing lives more", I feel that it is fair to say that the lives you value so dearly are your own. I'm sorry, Perhaps it is just American to perceive pacifism as cowardice.

Sweden has fought in just about ever big war before ww1. But I guess you dont think history is important? Maby because your country has no history to speak of? I dont se why it matters that those boats where of wood.
Its like saying all wars america has been in that didnt involve jet fighters are unimportant.

Well you should listen to the world when you deal with the world. What you and your goverment do within your country is your buisness. What you do in the world is the worlds buisness.

I gave you the reason why sweden wasnt involved in ww2. Not entering the war wasnt cowardice it was intelligence. It would be like you walking up to a gang of hells angels members alone and unarmed and calling them pussies. Like I said sweden entering ww2 would NOT have saved one single life and WOULD have cost alot of lifes. We where to small to make a difference either way. So not entering saved more lifes than entering. How is that not valuing life?

Sweden supported the war in afghanistan btw, but not the one in iraq. We support what is right.

If you dont want any oppinion on americas actions in the world maby you should preach for america to isolate itself? Because aslong as you meddle in other countries buisnesses my country and all others will say what they think and are entitled to do so.

[Kärnfysikern]

So what ever happened to the Politics, and religion forum, I swear you go on vcation for a week and everything changes

read this thread it explains it
So is the Politics/Religion Forum done?

[Kärnfysikern]

Im very curious about your oppinion on Dalai Lama, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther king and offcourse Einstein. Where they just pacifist disconnected from reality that acomplished nothing?

[kdawg21]

N. Korea is like a child throwing a tantrum for attention, Kim has used this same technique multiple times and has been successful. I am sure you have heard the old saying, fool me once shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. I think there is more to the story than what we are being told. I would be less worried about N. Korea and more worried about how China and Russia refuse to go along with imposing sanctions against N. Korea. Is it just me or does it seem like the old Soviet Russia may be rearing its ugly head again? Like a hydra, cut off the head and another grows back.

[kdawg21]

Damn man that sucks.............

[kdawg21]

Damn man that sucks.............

[Logan13]

Depends on who makes the threat. If its someone small and insignificant compared to me I wouldnt waste a minute of my time(that represents this situation best). You know, my grandma can shoot a gun just like a would-be assassin can. It's not the person to fear, it is there means available to accomplish their goal to be concerned about. Wouldn't waste a minute of your time? Anyone who threatens my family will be dealt with at the time of the threat. If its someone that seem serious(russia, china) I would be carefull and watch over my family. I would not slit his throath because he has a big mouth.

Also N.Korea has only threaten to respond to any violence against them. They havent threatened to do anything against america.

Actually they have threatened to use their weapons if sanctions are imposed on them.....

Do you have a Swedish word for "wishy-washy"?

[Logan13]

Im very curious about your oppinion on Dalai Lama, Mahatma Ghandi, Martin Luther king and offcourse Einstein. Where they just pacifist disconnected from reality that acomplished nothing?

Einstein's science helped to create the Atom bomb.....
As for the others, I guess I do not know why you brought them into this discussion. They were pacifists, but they were also men of action who set out to accomplish a goal and succeeded. To liken yourself to these men you would have to be able to say that you or your country stepped into a situation like Iraq ot n korea and worked through diplomacy that resulted in a calming of the tensions and avoided war. You guys do not even do this, Johan. You stay out of it completely, just throwing your opinions around but not solving anything. Men of action Sweden has not.........

[Logan13]

Hey Johan.

You like apples?


Regardless, you are still my favorite Swede besides ABBA.

[Kärnfysikern]

Actually they have threatened to use their weapons if sanctions are imposed on them.....

Do you have a Swedish word for "wishy-washy"?

I didnt know they had threatened if sanctions are imposed. Only that they had said the would retaliate with nuclear weapons to any attack on them...

Einstein's science helped to create the Atom bomb.....
As for the others, I guess I do not know why you brought them into this discussion. They were pacifists, but they were also men of action who set out to accomplish a goal and succeeded. To liken yourself to these men you would have to be able to say that you or your country stepped into a situation like Iraq ot n korea and worked through diplomacy that resulted in a calming of the tensions and avoided war. You guys do not even do this, Johan. You stay out of it completely, just throwing your opinions around but not solving anything. Men of action Sweden has not.........

Well not realy. The only part Einstein had in the atom bomb was the letter to the president. But he helped create the atom bomb as much as farday helped create the computer...

Like I have said earlier sweden has peacekeeping forces everywhere UN is, we are involved in diplomatic talks almost everywhere. Hell folke bernadotte(a member of swedish royal family) was even assasinated by israeli terrorist when negotiating betwen israel and palestine. I suspect you dont even know anything sweden does and just assume we do nothing. But with a population about equal to the population of New York its not like we can put any presure on any nation. Not financial, not military, nothing like that.
We do what we can for our size and you can not dismiss that in anyway because it is the truth.

And if you dont think sweden has men of action. Just look up Raoul Wallenberg for instance. Not to mention alot of swedes have held important positions in the UN. Like Hans Blix for instance or Dag Hammarskjöld that was general secretary of the UN. Carl Bildt was a important mediator in the balkan conflicts. I could go on and on but all of them have very limited options and limited power.

Hans Blix worked very hard to prevent the iraq war.

Im willing to bet sweden does more for peace in the world than ANY other country similar in size. We do far more than just give our oppinion. We back that oppinion up as much as we can.

[Kärnfysikern]

Anyway Im done with this now. All it does it piss us off, so far in all threads we have managed to stay peacefull so no point in breaking that record here

[Badgerman]

I totally agree with your proper military solution. As you know, I am a Bush supporter, but the war in Iraq has not gone down the way it should have IMO. We are letting politics interfere with what nees to be done, at the cost of soldiers lives I might add. If we are gonna go to war, we had better do what needs to be done from the beginning to the end to win it. This half ass fighting is driving me nuts. I know Johan thinks that diplomacy can work with everyone, but the fact of the matter is that it can not.

Diplomacy seems to work for awhile.......but then the human condition takes over.......greed, lust, vengence........the very things the law tries to control
I consider Iraq a test ground for weaponry.......in ways they did their job.....
quick defeat.......but the military and politicians can not cope with the human condition........they have no clue and can never understand why we weren't embraced as liberators........you have people who are hot tempered, living in heat and poverty.......no wonder they are all pissed off........now we are mired in the muck.......and we're pissed off........that's why our guys are going insane too.........
These smart weapons might seem to be the solution.........but there is more of a civilian component to the problem than meets the eye........they plain
DONT LIKE US...........
my solution is either destroy the country........or leave it alone
best leave it alone and save 500 billion

[Badgerman]

Anyway Im done with this now. All it does it piss us off, so far in all threads we have managed to stay peacefull so no point in breaking that record here

The problem is smart people have figured out war is not a good approach..........now how do you get rid of the 99% of the population that hasn't quite figured that out.........

[Logan13]

Anyway Im done with this now. All it does it piss us off, so far in all threads we have managed to stay peacefull so no point in breaking that record here

No reason to get pissed. How better to grow one's perception of the world than through a peaceful debate? A narrow minded fool would choose not to discuss such issues, we are simply giving ourselves a chance to rethink and reshape our own opinions. For this we grow as a person. I appreciate your passion. As I stated 2 times during our discussion, I still respect you as a member here with valid opinions which I continuely like to hear and discuss. Just remember Johan, we ALL live in glass houses.
-Logan13

[Badgerman]

If we could only convince the religious radicals that Mars is the promised land..........and then ship them all there!!

[Kärnfysikern]

No reason to get pissed. How better to grow one's perception of the world than through a peaceful debate? A narrow minded fool would choose not to discuss such issues, we are simply giving ourselves a chance to rethink and reshape our own opinions. For this we grow as a person. I appreciate your passion. As I stated 2 times during our discussion, I still respect you as a member here with valid opinions which I continuely like to hear and discuss. Just remember Johan, we ALL live in glass houses.
-Logan13

Yupp. Sometimes(not that often though) I just get to worked up for my own good and lose my edge so to speak. So then its better for me to take a few steps back rather than make posts that doesnt present my point of view properly

[ZIA1]

The only thing Im gonna reply with is that sweden was waring before anyone had a clue your beloved country even existed. We have seen far more war in our history than american can even dream of.
Europe has learned its lessons. Maby america will in the next few hundred years.

Open up your eyes and realise the shortcomings of your own country and maby someday you will realise why the rest of the world is so critical....

Only took Europe 1,000 years to learn its lesson. And just to add, I guess you meant Western Europe b/c the former yugoslavia is one fvcked up area.

Further, I would add that Europe's colonialism only ended in the 1970s. If Europe truly had learned its lessons after the great wars, they wouldn't have tried to hold on to far off lands.

[kdawg21]

I think Badger said that we should leave them alone and save a few billion dollars. At the risk of sounding like a war monger, I would like to point out that war was the greatest economic venture ever created, it generates far more money than most companies ever dream of, lest I remind you that it was WWII that vaulted the United States into the world economic drivers seat, those billions of dollars that we spend on troops and supplies go right back into the economy, the rebuilding that we do in those countries will go a long way for free trade in the future and make may people rich. I believe that history has shown us that the economic benefits of a victorious war far outweigh the cost of neutrality.

*I am not a war monger, nor should my statements be construed to support war at all times. I am simply pointing out another way of viewing war in general*