Obama to AIPAC- "no ones hurting more than the Palestinians".

[Bigen12]

i really don't understand what i'm supposed to clarify, saying
"The Israelis are predominently european/russian/american (white) immigrants who came there since the 1930's."

in no way contradicts

"I'm not saying Jews should leave that country or that they don't have a right to live there"

Since don't understand the question, never mind.

[RamyGras]

His stance is simple. Earlier on this thread, somebody stated that the Palestinians were the people that had flocked to the region. He was stating that this wasn't true. That the Palestinians had been there for much longer than that. He's saying that the majority of Israelis began immigrating in the 1930's, also true. And, quite fairly, he agrees that the Israelis have a right to live there. Then, again, I believe ANYBODY has the right to live there, as long as they have proper paperwork!

[RamyGras]

....

[alphaman]

I think he was trying to say that they need to protest in a non-violent manner.

Of course I realize that. But my point is that waht they have done is so far from that -- there is no point in sympathizing with them. And on top of that, to think that there would EVER be a chance of that happening is evidentiary of crack smoking.

The cause isn't ruthless, cowardly murders. It's about a group of people suffering, and right now their universal representatives are ruthless, cowardly murderers.

Why are they suffering?

It's amazing how when you look at the situation, all you gather out of it is that they are crazy murderers. What is making them so darn crazy??? Why are they acting like this???

Their misguided religious beliefs.

[RamyGras]

Honestly, with the Palestinians, it isn't the religion that fuels them. It's their misguided religious beliefs (and I'm very glad you understand that it's misguided) that makes them think that their actions are okay by God, and that once they're done killing a bunch of innocent Israelis, that the doors to Heaven will be open to them. What fuels them is strictly political and at this point an absolute bitterness toward the Israelis for actions that have taken place since 1948.

And the reason they're suffering. Well, I obviously don't know an exact number. But, a huge majority of the people want nothing more than peace with Israel, only b/c they're smart enough to realize that their quality of life will be much better. Unfortunately, a small minority are ruining it with attempted suicide bombs and other actions that make the rest of them look bad.

And, I know what you're thinking. These people elected Hamas to run their government. Well, from what I've learned, Fatah is very corrupt, especially with the money that is donated by such nations as the U.S. Hamas did a great job of convincing the people that they would give the money to the people. I don't think the Palestinians could have forseen the financial difficulties it would face once Hamas took power (U.S. and E.U. halting funds). At the next elections, the people over there will be able to fix this problem. Because, in my opinion, the U.S. really wants to help them, but they are not willing to deal with Hamas, and I can understand that.

But you should know that religion has nothing to do with them being so angry at the Israelis. Islam is actually a peaceful religion, it's a shame that these morons ruin it for the rest of the followers.

[mcpeepants]

It's amazing how you guys argue for the cause of ruthless, cowardly murderers. I mean, saying they should get a leader like MLK or Ghandi? Are you kidding? What are you smoking?

The Palestinian would be better served by a leader like MLK or Ghandi than there current leaders. Using violence has not helped and it's makes it easier to demonize them. There are already peace groups in the Palestinian terrorities. They just need a charasmatic, non-violent, and uncorrupt leader to argue for one-state solution. What I wonder is how Israel and the West would react to a leader like that. Remember, Martin Luther King Jr is popular now but he wasn't back in the 50s and 60s.

[alphaman]

The Palestinian would be better served by a leader like MLK or Ghandi than there current leaders. Using violence has not helped and it's makes it easier to demonize them. There are already peace groups in the Palestinian terrorities. They just need a charasmatic, non-violent, and uncorrupt leader to argue for one-state solution. What I wonder is how Israel and the West would react to a leader like that. Remember, Martin Luther King Jr is popular now but he wasn't back in the 50s and 60s.

I know what you meant, obviously. My point is -- that's like saying, "What Tock needs is a beautiful wife." It's an oxymoron.

[mcpeepants]

I know what you meant, obviously. My point is -- that's like saying, "What Tock needs is a beautiful wife." It's an oxymoron.

Then wouldn't you be assuming Palestinians and Peace are in contradiction if I'm following your logic correctly.

[Logan13]

But you should know that religion has nothing to do with them being so angry at the Israelis. Islam is actually a peaceful religion, it's a shame that these morons ruin it for the rest of the followers.

You are partially correct, it is their jealousy and their misguided religion that make them hate the Israelis, and everyone else for that matter.

[alphaman]

But you should know that religion has nothing to do with them being so angry at the Israelis. Islam is actually a peaceful religion, it's a shame that these morons ruin it for the rest of the followers.

Did you think I said misguided because I thought they had Islam all wrong? That is not what I'm saying. Islam is peaceful, huh? Try and make a case for that.

And it is a religious thing. If you think it's not, you are wrong. You think it's a coincidence that the most fanatical Muslim countries are the ones who appeal to the plight of the "palestinians"?

[RamyGras]

I'm not going to get into religion, b/c this site frowns on it. However, it is unfair to judge the religion based on the fanatical believers. It is absolutely no different than judging Christians based on the Ku Klux Klan or Erik Robert Rudolph. And, I'm sorry, but I think I understand quite well the reasoning behind Palestinians distaste for Israel. It has nothing to do with religion. They're burning Israeli flags, not Holy books. And, I realize that you're set on your beliefs. But, I've studied the Palestinian conflict and Islam. And, I hate to break it to you, but Islam is VERY similar to Christianity and Judaism, since they borrowed almost everything from those two religions. Taking another life is the biggest no-no.

I'll try not to bring religion up again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

[alphaman]

I'm not going to get into religion, b/c this site frowns on it. However, it is unfair to judge the religion based on the fanatical believers. It is absolutely no different than judging Christians based on the Ku Klux Klan or Erik Robert Rudolph. And, I'm sorry, but I think I understand quite well the reasoning behind Palestinians distaste for Israel. It has nothing to do with religion. They're burning Israeli flags, not Holy books. And, I realize that you're set on your beliefs. But, I've studied the Palestinian conflict and Islam. And, I hate to break it to you, but Islam is VERY similar to Christianity and Judaism, since they borrowed almost everything from those two religions. Taking another life is the biggest no-no.

I'll try not to bring religion up again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

You think you're talking to someone who hasn't studied this themselves? You have no idea what you are talking about. Stick to what you know (that of which you haven't yet revealed).

[RamyGras]

You think the Palestinian-Israeli issue is based on religion. I say it's based on politics and land. If you studied the Palestinian-Israeli issue, then you would know this. Please explain to me, someone that doesn't know what I'm talking about, how the issue has anything to do with religion. And, please, don't use a bunch of Arab fanatic maniacs as your source on religion. I have no idea what I'm talking about? Please, inform me.

[eliteforce]

I think I mentioned this earlier in the thread..but after the last 10 posts lets revisit it, people here are saying the Palestinians (in the w bank and Gaza) hate Israel because of things like "jealousy, mis-guided religious beliefs":

When Israel occupied the west bank in 1967 about 400,000 Palestinians were forced out or fled into Jordan, the Israeli military was brutal during the takeover. And most of those people were not allowed back in intil the oslo peace accords in 1991. That and what happened in 1948 with 800,000 to 1,000,000 Palestinians made refugees gave WB/Gaza Palestinians pretty good reason to hate.
But anyways once the situation settled down, there was no violent backlash from the Palestinians as Israel allowed them to start working in Israel with a system of day passes. A small number of Israeli settlers entered the WB and found the Palestinians to be friendly. This was Israel's best chance to fix the relationship with the Palestinians by giving them expanded autonomy. But instead they allowed right wing Israelis to start flowing into the west bank and confiscating land and seting up jewish only roads, the more settlements, the more restrictions were put on the oppresed population, by the 1980s militancy was on the rise and it exploded into rioting in the first intefada in 1986, of cource the more militancy the more oppresive become the israeli security measures became, but even when the first intefada started it was almost entirely stone throwing, Israel responded by shooting thousands dead attempting to control the riots..the first suicide bomber did not detonate until 1991 by then Hamas and Islamic Jihad were active in the WB.
The suicide attacks were halted has Yassr Arafat and the PLO entered the territories as a result of Oslo and Israel conducted their first pullback out of Palestinian cities.
Again Israel increased settlement activity;preemting any final status aggreement that would end the occupation, by 1996 the suicide attacks resumed.

[singern]

Again Israel increased settlement activity;preemting any final status aggreement that would end the occupation, by 1996 the suicide attacks resumed.

But since then Israel has unilaterally emptied 12 settlements in the West bank, and completely evacuated all settlements in the Gaza strip. And yet the terrorism and violence continues, Political efforts are halted due to a Hamas led government that refuses to accept the existence of Israel, and calls for the death of all jews, while Israel on the otherhand is completely onboard with a palestinian state, and yet the terrorism and violence continues. Yes settlements are still on occupied land and some are growing, but given the reality on the ground I would say that the Israel/palestinian agreement of "land for peace" is a only a fantasy of Israeli wishful thinking..

[alphaman]

I'm not going to get into religion, b/c this site frowns on it. However, it is unfair to judge the religion based on the fanatical believers. It is absolutely no different than judging Christians based on the Ku Klux Klan or Erik Robert Rudolph. And, I'm sorry, but I think I understand quite well the reasoning behind Palestinians distaste for Israel. It has nothing to do with religion. They're burning Israeli flags, not Holy books. And, I realize that you're set on your beliefs. But, I've studied the Palestinian conflict and Islam. And, I hate to break it to you, but Islam is VERY similar to Christianity and Judaism, since they borrowed almost everything from those two religions. Taking another life is the biggest no-no.

I'll try not to bring religion up again, I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

I'd rather not waste my time -- it's obvious that you have a veil over your eyes.


Matthew 7:6

[RamyGras]

I'd rather not waste my time -- it's obvious that you have a veil over your eyes.


Matthew 7:6

That's not fair. I've always understood the Israeli mentality. I've always believed the Palestinians should protest in a non-violent manner. I simply believe that the situation is political one, not a religious one. I'm not blind to the situation. I've been there countless times and have seen with my own eyes the consequences of both parties' actions. However, I'd still really like to hear how the fighting has anything to do with religion. But, I guess since I don't agree with you completely, we can just brush me off as an idiot with "a veil over (my) eyes".

[eliteforce]

They closed 4 settlements in the west bank, 4 little ones, the other 8 your talking about are 'illegal outposts' consisting of a few mobile homes and a water tank, these are not really closed, they're moved somewhere else; settlers have bragged that for everytime an outpost is closed they open even more in other places.

I never heard Hamas say "all Jews must Die" I have heard them say that Israel must end the occupation to the 1967 border for an extended 20 year 'cease-fire'

These partial withdrawels are simply not good enough to completly end the violent tactics (considering the scale of the settlements and the fact thatsuch small withdrawels don't change the lives of Palestinians) and get militant groups disarmed, but currently the level of attacks as down consideribly, whats more important that unilateral withdrawels are signals from Israels government that they are ready to negotiate on ending the occupation and closing the settlements.

But since then Israel has unilaterally emptied 12 settlements in the West bank, and completely evacuated all settlements in the Gaza strip. And yet the terrorism and violence continues, Political efforts are halted due to a Hamas led government that refuses to accept the existence of Israel, and calls for the death of all jews, while Israel on the otherhand is completely onboard with a palestinian state, and yet the terrorism and violence continues. Yes settlements are still on occupied land and some are growing, but given the reality on the ground I would say that the Israel/palestinian agreement of "land for peace" is a only a fantasy of Israeli wishful thinking..

[singern]

I never heard Hamas say "all Jews must Die" I have heard them say that Israel must end the occupation to the 1967 border for an extended 20 year 'cease-fire'

These partial withdrawels are simply not good enough to completly end the violent tactics .

You should read the Hamas charter, it clearly and boldly calls for destroying the state of Israel, and cleansing the land of every single Jew. This charter, which Hamas is unwilling to change is one of the reasons the Palestinian people are no longer getting foreign aid, it is also the main reason Israel is rightly refusing to have any contact with them.

The withdrawals we made in the West Bank and Gaza are more than enough of a political/social gesture, since the palestinians have done absolutely nothing in return, other than reward us with more violence, rocket fire, and terrorism against our civilians........ Where is land for peace? we give some land, we expect some peace. But the Palestinian leadership is clearly not willing or is unable to take control.

the rest should be up to negotiations., but how do negotiate with a leadership who's only goal is to kill you? This is the reality.

[RamyGras]

Agreed. In all reality, while I support a Palestinian state, and I DO feel bad for the people, Hamas should not be running this "government". They need to find people that don't have that lingering bad taste in their mouth, and they need to sit with the Israelis and come up with a compromise. Then, the first thing the new government must do is stop any attack against Israeli civilians. I don't think the Israelis are completely innocent, by any means, but I agree with Singer on this point. And, it IS part of their charter. So, whether they changed it or not (which they haven't), this group should never be a part of Palestine's decision making authority.

[alphaman]

Agreed. In all reality, while I support a Palestinian state, and I DO feel bad for the people, Hamas should not be running this "government". They need to find people that don't have that lingering bad taste in their mouth, and they need to sit with the Israelis and come up with a compromise. Then, the first thing the new government must do is stop any attack against Israeli civilians. I don't think the Israelis are completely innocent, by any means, but I agree with Singer on this point. And, it IS part of their charter. So, whether they changed it or not (which they haven't), this group should never be a part of Palestine's decision making authority.

Nevermind.

[RamyGras]

Alphaman, I have no idea what you were going to say, but I assume you had a problem with my post. I guess we're not going to agree on much, but for what it's worth, it's always cool to chat with you and see things from your perspective.

[eliteforce]

Can you tell me exactly where in the Hamas charter it says "cleansing the land of every single jew" or "that all jews must die"?-which is what you said earlier:

http://www.palestinecenter.org/cpap/...s/charter.html

You should read the Hamas charter, it clearly and boldly calls for destroying the state of Israel, and cleansing the land of every single Jew. This charter, which Hamas is unwilling to change is one of the reasons the Palestinian people are no longer getting foreign aid, it is also the main reason Israel is rightly refusing to have any contact with them.

The withdrawals we made in the West Bank and Gaza are more than enough of a political/social gesture, since the palestinians have done absolutely nothing in return, other than reward us with more violence, rocket fire, and terrorism against our civilians........ Where is land for peace? we give some land, we expect some peace. But the Palestinian leadership is clearly not willing or is unable to take control.

the rest should be up to negotiations., but how do negotiate with a leadership who's only goal is to kill you? This is the reality.

[alphaman]

Alphaman, I have no idea what you were going to say, but I assume you had a problem with my post. I guess we're not going to agree on much, but for what it's worth, it's always cool to chat with you and see things from your perspective.

Well thanks.

I don't understand how we woudln't agree on anything considering that you said you argue the western side on other sites..........

My perspective on this is probably the most radical around here, though. I see this thing through 'spiritual goggles', rather than the political perspective like everyone else here now. There were a couple others around at one time, but when the prw forum was deleted, they split.

From my point of view, the ball is set in motion and there is nothing that anyone can do to make peace in a holistic sense -- rather all anyone can do is play a part in the divine plan.

[juicedOUTbrain]

Bottom line, thousands of innocent people who have no say in their government are suffering. Its simple humanity to help them. If you dont agree with that then you are an evil human being, straight the **** up!

And if you think that every palestinian is evil, or has made a decision to support violence than you are equally as dumb as you are inhumane.

done.

[alphaman]

Bottom line, thousands of innocent people who have no say in their government are suffering. Its simple humanity to help them. If you dont agree with that they you are an evil human being, straight the **** up!

And if you think that every palestinian is evil, or has made a decision to support violence that your as equally as dumb as you are inhumane.

done.

Your name suits you very well.

[juicedOUTbrain]

Your name suits you very well.

should I take that as a compliment or an insult?

[alphaman]

should I take that as a compliment or an insult?

Take it however you like, big guy.

[juicedOUTbrain]

Take it however you like, big guy.

Well then, thanks for the compliment.

[alphaman]

Bottom line, thousands of innocent people who have no say in their government are suffering.

The Palestinian people elected Hamas.

Its simple humanity to help them. If you don't agree with that then you are an evil human being, straight the **** up!

I never said that we shouldn't help them. Just because the thread is titled "Obama says: 'Nobody is hurting more than the Palestinians' " and I am arguing on the side of Israel, doesn't mean I am evil.

And if you think that every Palestinian is evil, or has made a decision to support violence than you are equally as dumb as you are inhumane.

When did I say that??? T-h-e-n would be the correct choice here, BTW. (Probably would be wise to use proper grammar and punctuation when trying to call someone stupid)



.

[juicedOUTbrain]

The Palestinian people elected Hamas.
America elected GWB, that doesn't mean that I did. People can elect who ever they want. It may be a result of the anger they feel toward israel, maybe they are right, maybe they are misguided, they may be under a threat of violence. That doesn't mean they are all evil. They are just as human as you or I.

I never said that we shouldn't help them. Just because the thread is titled "Obama says: 'Nobody is hurting more than the Palestinians' " and I am arguing on the side of Israel, doesn't mean I am evil.
My post was not directed at you. I never said you were...But to say the palestinians are evil as opposed to the fact that they are a result of their situation is to dehumanize a whole people.
Arabs are not genetically predisposed to psychotic behavior. Their actions are a result of their treatment, and their treatment may very well be a result of the actions of a few. But violence and poverty lead to anger and hate. Anger and hate lead to more violence. My point is that the treatment of the palestinians is making the problem worse not better, regardless if the palestinians complaints are right or wrong.


When did I say that??? T-h-e-n would be the correct choice here, BTW. (Probably would be wise to use proper grammar and punctuation when trying to call someone stupid)
I know its then. I type as fast as i think and i didnt look it over...Not to mention, i dont feel grammer is any indication of one overall intelligence.

.

im done with this thread, i dont feel like rehashing the whole palestinian israeli debate...

[alphaman]

America elected GWB, that doesn't mean that I did.

You said they had no say in their government. And I was saying that they democratically elected it. If you're saying that there are thousands of people that voted the other way, and those are the ones we should help -- well, that could be said of any country, including ours.

People can elect who ever they want. It may be a result of the anger they feel toward israel, maybe they are right, maybe they are misguided, they may be under a threat of violence. That doesn't mean they are all evil. They are just as human as you or I.

I never came out and said they were evil -- but at the same time -- I'm not saying that they aren't evil. I believe that we are all flawed and have a tendency to do evil things. I also believe that they are misguided in their religious beliefs, which are particularly evil in nature.

My post was not directed at you.

I see that you've edited now, but you quoted me in your original post, so it's hard to think it wasn't directed at me.

Arabs are not genetically predisposed to psychotic behavior.

Palestinians are culturally and religiously predisposed to violence.

My point is that the treatment of the palestinians is making the problem worse not better, regardless if the palestinians complaints are right or wrong.

So you're saying we should give into terror?

[juicedOUTbrain]

You said they had no say in their government. And I was saying that they democratically elected it. If you're saying that there are thousands of people that voted the other way, and those are the ones we should help -- well, that could be said of any country, including ours.

Yes, again there are thousands of innocent palestinians who had no say in their government, and thosands more who are guilty only of thought that you disagree with. Only a very small minority are extremists actually commit violent acts and target civilians. Your logic is the same type of generalized rhetoric that breeds the terror against the israeli civilians. "Civilians elected the leaders, the leaders do evil things, therefore civilians are a responsible for these acts, and are reasonable targets.". Im sure you would disagree with that philosophy if it were coming from the other side, would you not?

I never came out and said they were evil -- but at the same time -- I'm not saying that they aren't evil. I believe that we are all flawed and have a tendency to do evil things. I also believe that they are misguided in their religious beliefs, which are particularly evil in nature

.
I think it has more to do with poverty, lack of education, and the war thats being waged daily in their own back yard than it has to do with religion. Such strong beliefs in religion also stems from all three other factors. The Israels want total peace while occupying others land. That is an unreasonable request, IMO.

I see that you've edited now, but you quoted me in your original post, so it's hard to think it wasn't directed at me.

I hit quote instead of edit, nothing i said in my post was specific towards you.

Palestinians are culturally and religiously predisposed to violence.

Again, they are not genetically predisposed to violence. Cultually, Sure. But they are also culturally predisposed to an occupation and I think the two are pretty closely tied.

So you're saying we should give into terror?

Please dont make assumptions on my beliefs. 1st off you make a jump of saying that palestinian militants are somehow ALL terrorists. According to International law, when under occupation a population has the right to defend itself. What international law does not say is that you can occupy land outside of your borders, or that permenant settlements can be build on this land. Of course there are crazies on both sides that take there anger out on civilians and this includes jewish extremist settlers. Most of the world views this plight as a civilized genocide, and the only reason that the UN has not condemned it more than they have is because of the huge pull of the US and Israel on the security council.

I love how zionists love to accuse anyone who questions there beliefs as giving into terror. We just disagree on how to solve the problem. Look how far your method has gotten us in the last 40 years...I think its time for a new plan of attack. One where we understand the true cause of the problem so it can be adressed truthfully and dealt with. Im sick of hearing they just hate all jews, and hate infidels. The problem is much deeper, and will never be done until people like yourself see the true issue and adress it.

I really didnt want to rehash this argument, it will never go anywhere productive...so im going to bow out on this one...Your 100% right on everything, OK?

[Logan13]

Yes, again there are thousands of innocent palestinians who had no say in their government, and thosands more who are guilty only of thought that you disagree with. Only a very small minority are extremists actually commit violent acts and target civilians. Your logic is the same type of generalized rhetoric that breeds the terror against the israeli civilians. "Civilians elected the leaders, the leaders do evil things, therefore civilians are a responsible for these acts, and are reasonable targets.". Im sure you would disagree with that philosophy if it were coming from the other side, would you not?

.
I think it has more to do with poverty, lack of education, and the war thats being waged daily in their own back yard than it has to do with religion. Such strong beliefs in religion also stems from all three other factors. The Israels want total peace while occupying others land. That is an unreasonable request, IMO.


I hit quote instead of edit, nothing i said in my post was specific towards you.


Again, they are not genetically predisposed to violence. Cultually, Sure. But they are also culturally predisposed to an occupation and I think the two are pretty closely tied.


Please dont make assumptions on my beliefs. 1st off you make a jump of saying that palestinian militants are somehow ALL terrorists. According to International law, when under occupation a population has the right to defend itself. What international law does not say is that you can occupy land outside of your borders, or that permenant settlements can be build on this land. Of course there are crazies on both sides that take there anger out on civilians and this includes jewish extremist settlers. Most of the world views this plight as a civilized genocide, and the only reason that the UN has not condemned it more than they have is because of the huge pull of the US and Israel on the security council.

I love how zionists love to accuse anyone who questions there beliefs as giving into terror. We just disagree on how to solve the problem. Look how far your method has gotten us in the last 40 years...I think its time for a new plan of attack. One where we understand the true cause of the problem so it can be adressed truthfully and dealt with. Im sick of hearing they just hate all jews, and hate infidels. The problem is much deeper, and will never be done until people like yourself see the true issue and adress it.

I really didnt want to rehash this argument, it will never go anywhere productive...so im going to bow out on this one...Your 100% right on everything, OK?

If individual Palestinians will not rise up against a government that you claim that they do not support, than they are as much to blame for being part of the problem and not of the solution. Done.

[juicedOUTbrain]

If individual Palestinians will not rise up against a government that you claim that they do not support, than they are as much to blame for being part of the problem and not of the solution. Done.

I never said they all dont support the government. Many did not, and the ones that do are guilty only of disagreement with you. They are not all violent and they are not all militants. That same logic could be used to justify the 9-11 attacks, and I whole heartedly disagree. Civilians are civilians, governemnts can propagandize people and make good people support horrible things. That can be said for both sides.

I agree with you 100%, that rising up against their government would be to their benefit, but why would they do this when its easier to blame israel. Right or wrong, people will always side with their own kind before they take the side of an outside force...Just ask the Iraqis.

My point is that Israel needs to realistically adress the problem, and make SOME concessions to the palestinians in order to bring peace. I dont feel we should "give in to terror" but the request to withdraw to the internationally recognized borders is not an unreasonable one, IMO. Once this occurs I think a true peace process could begin. Until then, its just more of the same, death and destruction on both sides.