Obama to AIPAC- "no ones hurting more than the Palestinians".

[DTBusta]

http://ezraklein.typepad.com/blog/20...and_aipac.html

[Tock]

Well, is anyone hurting more than the Palestinians?

That may very well be true . . .

[Logan13]

Well, is anyone hurting more than the Palestinians?

That may very well be true . . .

If I cut my own wrists, I can't very well blame my pain on anyone else. They elected their own gov't. If they can not survive w/out international hand-outs, than they have internal issues that they should be paying more attention to.

[singern]

Obama is correct,
The Palestinians are indeed suffering, no doubt about it.
The question is why they are suffering:
The Arab world enjoys blaming the Israelis, and Islamic leaders enjoy blaming the Jews, but the truth is the Palestinians have freely chosen the path they are on, the path of violence, corruption, and a morbidly inhuman view of death and God, one which has them killing each other in the streets like rabid animals fighting over scrap of meat, just to prove which terror group is the strongest.

So yes let us all take pause and shed a tear for the poor Palestinians, who name schools after suicide bombers, and children’s TV shows that make the kids sing songs of murder, hatred, and the glory of death.

[Act of God]

In all fairness, the Jewish fringe settlers (there illegally) are pretty hateful and reek of an ethnic superiority complex. From what I read, most are from America.

[Logan13]

In all fairness, the Jewish fringe settlers (there illegally) are pretty hateful and reek of an ethnic superiority complex. From what I read, most are from America.

well that explains it, they are better than they are..........

[Act of God]

oh no you didn't!

[Dude-Man]

If I cut my own wrists, I can't very well blame my pain on anyone else. They elected their own gov't. If they can not survive w/out international hand-outs, than they have internal issues that they should be paying more attention to.

Isreal couldn't survive without the united states. Are you saying that they also have internal issues they should also pay attention to?

The united states couldn't operate without foreign loans. Don't we have some internal issues we should clear up?

[Hoggage_54]

Everyone in that region is hurting. The decisions of a few are affecting millions of innocent people.

[DNoMac]

If you read a little furhter down, it says he made these comments the night before in Iowa. Regardless, it says he did mention the suffering of Palestinians to the AIPAC which is still bold.

[Mus505]

i thought the mod said that this is not a political forum.

[RamyGras]

Obama may have a point. First of all, I ABSOLUTELY condemn any act of terrorism against Israeli civilians. I've always felt that living in Israel must be a curse, probably the most dangerous state in all the world. And, there is no excuse for when it occurs, due to the fact that they are mostly done by suicide bombs. Suicide bombing is the epitomy of precise targeting. However, I'd like to make a point that the IDF is also a major contributor to the violence between both Israel and Palestine.

Look no further than the Human Rights Watch 2006. Between Sept. 2000-Sept. 2005, Israel had killed nearly 3,000 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, over 600 of those children. The Palestinians are also to blame, having killed 900 Israelis in that time period.

In 2005, alone, there were over 2,000 IDF incursions into Palestinian population centers. On August 24 of that year, during an arrest raid in the Tulkarem refugee camp, the IDF shot and killed 5 unarmed Palestinians, including 3 seventeen year olds. There were twenty similar crimes reported in 2005, but due to amendments in their laws (specifically the Civil Wrongs Law 5712-1952), Palestinians were barred from suing for wrongful death. Which, of course, is against international law. Less than 10% of wrongful Palestinian deaths had been investigated by the time the law had passed anyway, so this wasn't that big of a deal. The longest sentence given out was an 8-year incarceration for the killing of British civilian Tom Hurndall who was shot in the head by a sniper while evacuating a group of Palestinans from Israeli shellfire.

Approximately 8,000 Palestinians are imprisoned by Israel, today, while 800 of those are held without trial or charge.

Even though the International Court of Justice's Advisory Opinion deemed Israel's building of their wall inside Palestinian territory to be illegal, Israel ignored them and continued to build in their territory. We're not talking about a few feet here and there. 85% of the wall is unapologetically in Palestinian territory and now that it lies within Israel's wall, it has become Israeli territory, whether the Palestinians were okay with it or not. (I don't blame Israel for building the wall. It just shouldn't have been built in Palestinian territory) The territory that was taken holds Palestine's most productive farmland and key water resources. Even President Bush called for a freeze in settlement expansion, yet provided no political or economic sanctions. Israel's response was that they would continue to build, despite U.S. displeasure.

Now, Obama was probably referring to Palestine's economic troubles, resulting in a halt of U.S. and EU aid after Hamas won elections in 2006. The U.S., up until then, had provided $50 M a year, a far cry from the $3 B provided for Israel, due to Hamas being a "terrorist organization". The real problem, however, lies with the fact that Israel has halted the $50M a month in tax receipts due to the Palestinians. This has left the Palestinians in shambles, as this money is what is used to pay their government employees. Without U.S. and EU aid, and with the holding of Palestinians' tax receipts, they really have no way of making money and feeding themselves. Over 50% are unemployed and over 2/3 of the population is living below the poverty line. The U.S. not only halted funding, but placed a financial blockade on their banks so that neighboring Arab nations, most notably Saudi Arabia and Qatar could no longer send aid. It wasn't until May 2006, did the World Bank convince the U.S. and the EU to somehow get support to the Palestinians without contact with Hamas (the contributions considerably less).

And, don't forget, it was Israel that broke Hamas' 16 month cease-fire in June 2006 with the attack on a beach that killed seven Palestinans, three of which were children, aged one, three, and 10.

Now, I know that once I post this I will be perceived as some sort of "terrorist" advocate. However, that would be very unfair. My goal is for others to understand that there are two sides in this battle. It's very common for people to look at Palestinians as inhumane and savage. Or to look at them as having taken a "path of violence, corruption, and a morbidly inhuman view of death and God, one which has them killing each other in the streets like rabid animals fighting over scrap of meat, just to prove which terror group is the strongest", as 'singern' so eloquently pointed out. It's easy to point at these people and label them "TERRORIST", and support Israel's actions indiscrimately. There's no doubt that the Palestinans have done unspeakable crimes against the humanity of Israelis. I can't imagine living in Tel Aviv, looking over my shoulder for a possible kaytusha rocket landing in the cafe that I'm sitting in. But, I also can't imagine being in Gaza and having my house plowed down because of "suspected terrorism".

The Palestinians are suffering. This is fact. You may believe they deserve it, you may not. Just remember, the majority have come to accept the state of Israel, and their only hope is to live in peace.

[alphaman]

i thought the mod said that this is not a political forum.

[alphaman]

The whole thing has gone too far. The Palestinians should have never been bargained with. They have been terrorists since day one.

Up until the beginning of the twentieth century, there was no one occupying the land that is now called "Palestine". They are squatters from surrounding Muslim countries. The name 'Palestine' means "land of the Phillistines". The name came about when the Roman Emporer, Hadrian destroyed the temple in 70 AD. Hadrian "renamed" Israel, 'Palestine' as a slap in the face (the phillistines were the long wiped out enemies of the Israelites). Yasser Arafat, the "father of Palestine" was an Egyptian. It is all a way for Muslims to try and claim a land they say is holy to them. Palestinians are a fictional people.

[RamyGras]

Well, in all fairness, I never stated that the state of Israel belonged to the Palestinians. I simply was stating that there are two equally oppressive sides in this conflict. I would never debate that the Jews were there first. The Jews were there before the term Muslim even meant anything, this is fact. Now, you can refer to the Muslim people that live there any way you want. It just happens to be universally accepted to refer to them as Palestinians.

By the end of the 18th century, 89% of the area were Muslims. By the end of the 19th century, 81% of the area were Muslims. And, by 1931, 73% of the area were Muslims. So, it's not as though these people came from nowhere. They have been the majority for close to 1,000 years. And they, just like the Jews and Christians, do look at this land to be a rich part of their religious history.

And, to say "terrorists since day one", doesn't make sense. If you are laying claim that they have been terrorists since before the 12th century, then who wasn't? It wasn't the Muslims who drove out the Jews from Israel, it was the Romans, as you have pointed out.

The "Father" of our nation is President George Washington. But, didn't he once live under British rule and even fight in their military? Does that make him any less American? Of course not. Hell, I'm not a supporter of Arafat. He died a very wealthy man as he sat and watched other Palestinians fight his fight with little compensation, begging in the streets in their later years.

The term fiction is defined as "something invented by the imagination". If Palestinians are fictional, then who are these people you feel should have never been bargained with? And have been terrorists since day one? You can call them whatever you want. That wasn't my point.

[alphaman]

Well, in all fairness, I never stated that the state of Israel belonged to the Palestinians. I simply was stating that there are two equally oppressive sides in this conflict. I would never debate that the Jews were there first. The Jews were there before the term Muslim even meant anything, this is fact. Now, you can refer to the Muslim people that live there any way you want. It just happens to be universally accepted to refer to them as Palestinians.

By the end of the 18th century, 89% of the area were Muslims. By the end of the 19th century, 81% of the area were Muslims. And, by 1931, 73% of the area were Muslims. So, it's not as though these people came from nowhere. They have been the majority for close to 1,000 years. And they, just like the Jews and Christians, do look at this land to be a rich part of their religious history.

And, to say "terrorists since day one", doesn't make sense. If you are laying claim that they have been terrorists since before the 12th century, then who wasn't? It wasn't the Muslims who drove out the Jews from Israel, it was the Romans, as you have pointed out.

The "Father" of our nation is President George Washington. But, didn't he once live under British rule and even fight in their military? Does that make him any less American? Of course not. Hell, I'm not a supporter of Arafat. He died a very wealthy man as he sat and watched other Palestinians fight his fight with little compensation, begging in the streets in their later years.

The term fiction is defined as "something invented by the imagination". If Palestinians are fictional, then who are these people you feel should have never been bargained with? And have been terrorists since day one? You can call them whatever you want. That wasn't my point.

My post wasn't a response to yours. I didn't read it because it was really long. lol I glanced at some of the things you just said and I'll respond, but later, 'cause right now I'm gonna go play some basketball with my son.

[DNoMac]

Go play some basketball with my son=search wikepedia for response

[Logan13]

Isreal couldn't survive without the united states. Are you saying that they also have internal issues they should also pay attention to?

The united states couldn't operate without foreign loans. Don't we have some internal issues we should clear up?

OK, so if the US were not around, who would take out Israel?
We are not starving here in the US, the pali's are without their "aid". This is nothing but international welfare.........

[RamyGras]

It's not just the aid, it's the withholding of tax receipts due to the "Pali's". We're talking $600M a year. To these people, that's quite a bit of cash. International welfare? Seriously? The United States of America and Israel were built on foreign support, or as you would say "international welfare". Do you have ANY idea how many countries receive "aid" from others?

[Logan13]

It's not just the aid, it's the withholding of tax receipts due to the "Pali's". We're talking $600M a year. To these people, that's quite a bit of cash. International welfare? Seriously? The United States of America and Israel were built on foreign support, or as you would say "international welfare". Do you have ANY idea how many countries receive "aid" from others?

Palestine has NO economy, it is a population that lives off of hand-outs. The mere fact that you are trying to somehow equate their plight to the plight of the US early-on is laughable, at best.
define these tax receipts........They are not "owed" anything.

[RamyGras]

Logan, you do know that they drive foreign cars in the West Bank, don't you? You realize that they purchase food, washing machines, tools, tires, cigarettes, toys, etc. Well, just like anywhere else, they get these items from over seas. Well, these items must go through Israeli customs, and for years they have been charged a 17% tax on top of Israeli costs. And, for years, they get their tax return which is around $600M every year. This money belongs to the Palestinians. Since 1994, this tax has been a large portion of Palestinian economy. While the Israelis had attempted to halt payment of these tax receipts in 2001, they weren't given the green light until last year. So, while their economy may not be as strong as ours (we are very fortunate), they still have one.

And, I only compared Palestine to U.S.' early years when it came to foreign aid. And, in that respect, it's not that laughable. You'd be surprised. It's obvious you don't know too much about the situation. For someone who seems very interested in it, you should read a little more about what's going on (maybe with an open mind).

[Logan13]

Logan, you do know that they drive foreign cars in the West Bank, don't you? You realize that they purchase food, washing machines, tools, tires, cigarettes, toys, etc. Well, just like anywhere else, they get these items from over seas. Well, these items must go through Israeli customs, and for years they have been charged a 17% tax on top of Israeli costs. And, for years, they get their tax return which is around $600M every year. This money belongs to the Palestinians. Why do you consider this money the palestinians? Welfare does not belong to nor is it owed to the welfare recipient, it is given and can therefore be taken away. Since 1994, this tax has been a large portion of Palestinian economy. While the Israelis had attempted to halt payment of these tax receipts in 2001, they weren't given the green light until last year. So, while their economy may not be as strong as ours (we are very fortunate), they still have one.

And, I only compared Palestine to U.S.' early years when it came to foreign aid. And, in that respect, it's not that laughable. You'd be surprised. It's obvious you don't know too much about the situation. For someone who seems very interested in it, you should read a little more about what's going on (maybe with an open mind).

I know that some of the oldest civilizations hale from the mid east, and for a population that has been around such a long time, what do they have to show for it? No wonder they hate the israelis for being so successful. I am tired of hearing about the poor Palestinians, the only thing that they produce is suicide bombers and religious dogma. Their culture is quite honestly fuked up, only they can change this but they must quit whining about being victims first and take responsibility for their own actions..........

[singern]

Obama may have a point. First of all, I ABSOLUTELY condemn any act of terrorism against Israeli civilians. I've always felt that living in Israel must be a curse, probably the most dangerous state in all the world. And, there is no excuse for when it occurs, due to the fact that they are mostly done by suicide bombs. Suicide bombing is the epitomy of precise targeting. However, I'd like to make a point that the IDF is also a major contributor to the violence between both Israel and Palestine.

Look no further than the Human Rights Watch 2006. Between Sept. 2000-Sept. 2005, Israel had killed nearly 3,000 Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza, over 600 of those children. The Palestinians are also to blame, having killed 900 Israelis in that time period.

In 2005, alone, there were over 2,000 IDF incursions into Palestinian population centers. On August 24 of that year, during an arrest raid in the Tulkarem refugee camp, the IDF shot and killed 5 unarmed Palestinians, including 3 seventeen year olds. There were twenty similar crimes reported in 2005, but due to amendments in their laws (specifically the Civil Wrongs Law 5712-1952), Palestinians were barred from suing for wrongful death. Which, of course, is against international law. Less than 10% of wrongful Palestinian deaths had been investigated by the time the law had passed anyway, so this wasn't that big of a deal. The longest sentence given out was an 8-year incarceration for the killing of British civilian Tom Hurndall who was shot in the head by a sniper while evacuating a group of Palestinans from Israeli shellfire.

Approximately 8,000 Palestinians are imprisoned by Israel, today, while 800 of those are held without trial or charge.

Even though the International Court of Justice's Advisory Opinion deemed Israel's building of their wall inside Palestinian territory to be illegal, Israel ignored them and continued to build in their territory. We're not talking about a few feet here and there. 85% of the wall is unapologetically in Palestinian territory and now that it lies within Israel's wall, it has become Israeli territory, whether the Palestinians were okay with it or not. (I don't blame Israel for building the wall. It just shouldn't have been built in Palestinian territory) The territory that was taken holds Palestine's most productive farmland and key water resources. Even President Bush called for a freeze in settlement expansion, yet provided no political or economic sanctions. Israel's response was that they would continue to build, despite U.S. displeasure.

Now, Obama was probably referring to Palestine's economic troubles, resulting in a halt of U.S. and EU aid after Hamas won elections in 2006. The U.S., up until then, had provided $50 M a year, a far cry from the $3 B provided for Israel, due to Hamas being a "terrorist organization". The real problem, however, lies with the fact that Israel has halted the $50M a month in tax receipts due to the Palestinians. This has left the Palestinians in shambles, as this money is what is used to pay their government employees. Without U.S. and EU aid, and with the holding of Palestinians' tax receipts, they really have no way of making money and feeding themselves. Over 50% are unemployed and over 2/3 of the population is living below the poverty line. The U.S. not only halted funding, but placed a financial blockade on their banks so that neighboring Arab nations, most notably Saudi Arabia and Qatar could no longer send aid. It wasn't until May 2006, did the World Bank convince the U.S. and the EU to somehow get support to the Palestinians without contact with Hamas (the contributions considerably less).

And, don't forget, it was Israel that broke Hamas' 16 month cease-fire in June 2006 with the attack on a beach that killed seven Palestinans, three of which were children, aged one, three, and 10.

Now, I know that once I post this I will be perceived as some sort of "terrorist" advocate. However, that would be very unfair. My goal is for others to understand that there are two sides in this battle. It's very common for people to look at Palestinians as inhumane and savage. Or to look at them as having taken a "path of violence, corruption, and a morbidly inhuman view of death and God, one which has them killing each other in the streets like rabid animals fighting over scrap of meat, just to prove which terror group is the strongest", as 'singern' so eloquently pointed out. It's easy to point at these people and label them "TERRORIST", and support Israel's actions indiscrimately. There's no doubt that the Palestinans have done unspeakable crimes against the humanity of Israelis. I can't imagine living in Tel Aviv, looking over my shoulder for a possible kaytusha rocket landing in the cafe that I'm sitting in. But, I also can't imagine being in Gaza and having my house plowed down because of "suspected terrorism".

The Palestinians are suffering. This is fact. You may believe they deserve it, you may not. Just remember, the majority have come to accept the state of Israel, and their only hope is to live in peace.

It is well documented that Palestinians have never once honored a cease fire. Since the first Intefada in the mid 80s There has never been a single day when Palestinians have not shot at passing Israeli cars, smuggled weapons, and suicide bombers across the border, or fired rockets into Israel to the tune of dozens per day from Gaza, But they have the balls to cry foul when Israel retaliates.

Palestinians have a militant culture where violence, and murder is rewarded. This is undeniable, Children are fed, taught, and raised with the goal of killing Jews. Its in the mosques, schools, tv shown, music, and every aspect of there culture.

Israel certainly also has its faults and issues that need to be corrected, but when it comes to complete separation from the Palestinians there is no argument. If the Palestinians would just reject and deny the terrorist culture and leadership they would have had independence long ago.

[alphaman]

Go play some basketball with my son=search wikepedia for response

That would be funny if it were true. lol

This is something I don't need to research, I've already done that arguing back and forth with causasian and militiaguy a while back.

[alphaman]

It just happens to be universally accepted to refer to them as Palestinians.

Very true.

By the end of the 18th century, 89% of the area were Muslims. By the end of the 19th century, 81% of the area were Muslims. And, by 1931, 73% of the area were Muslims. So, it's not as though these people came from nowhere. They have been the majority for close to 1,000 years. And they, just like the Jews and Christians, do look at this land to be a rich part of their religious history.

Source?

Alphonse de Lamartine in 1835:

"Outside the gates of Jerusalem we saw indeed no living object, heard no living sound, we found the same void, the same silence ... as we should have expected before the entombed gates of Pompeii or Herculaneam a complete eternal silence reigns in the town, on the highways, in the country ... the tomb of a whole people."

Mark Twain said this in 1867:

"Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes. Over it broods the spell of a curse that has withered its fields and fettered its energies. Palestine is desolate and unlovely -- Palestine is no more of this workday world. It is sacred to poetry and tradition, it is dreamland." "There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country". "A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action. We reached Tabor safely. We never saw a human being on the whole route". "There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent – not for thirty miles in either direction. ...One may ride ten miles hereabouts and not see ten human beings." ...these unpeopled deserts, these rusty mounds of barrenness..."

The idea that there was a massive immigration of Arabs into Palestine around the beginning of the twentieth century is, of course, highly debated. But the evidence leans substantially toward my argument. The only people who deny it are Muslims who have an agenda. These same people claim that the idea was created by Zionist writers, but one can't deny that the two above weren't Zionists. That paired with the fact that the United Nations recorded the Arab population at almost 1.3 million in 1948 -- it's indisputable. C'mon, natural growth of the population from a point where a visitor can't detect any inhabitants at all, to 1.3 million in less than a hundred years? IMPOSSIBLE.

And, to say "terrorists since day one", doesn't make sense. If you are laying claim that they have been terrorists since before the 12th century, then who wasn't? It wasn't the Muslims who drove out the Jews from Israel, it was the Romans, as you have pointed out.

The "Palestinians" didn't have a political voice until the mid sixties when the PLO (terrorists) was formed. NOBODY recognized them as a state until 1988, and the UN still doesn't recognize them.

The term fiction is defined as "something invented by the imagination".

fic·tion Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[fik-shuhn]
–noun 1. the class of literature comprising works of imaginative narration, esp. in prose form.
2. works of this class, as novels or short stories: detective fiction.
3. something feigned, invented, or imagined; a made-up story: We've all heard the fiction of her being in delicate health. 4. the act of feigning, inventing, or imagining.
5. an imaginary thing or event, postulated for the purposes of argument or explanation.
6. Law. an allegation that a fact exists that is known not to exist, made by authority of law to bring a case within the operation of a rule of law.

I realize that referring to them as Palestinians makes sense. I used the word "fictional" to make a point.





.

[RamyGras]

To Logan: I don't think that the reason the Palestinians hate the Israelis is b/c they are jealous of their success. The root of their anger is due to the state of Israel being established in 1948. There really is no disputing that there was a war that the Israelis won and that Palestinians were pushed out of their homes. Even the Israelis don't dispute this. The only argument about this is how many Palestinians lost their homes. You say that their culture is f#@&ed up. I agree with you. They definitely need to make changes in their culture and they definitely need to catch up with the rest of the world when it comes to solving problems in a civil fashion, among other aspects. I'll probably come off as a hypocrite for saying the "solving problems in a civil fashion" part, since I'm an American. However, your comment on how all they produce is suicide bombers and religious dogma is a stereotype created by a small minority (i realize that is hard to believe) that have tainted what is actually a very great religion. I know it's a great religion b/c it follows the rules and stories of the Bible, which in turn follow the rules and the stories of the Torah, both very great books from very great religions (if you don't believe in religion, disregard the statement). In Islam, the general belief is that these suicide bombers will be punished for their horrible crimes.

To singern: There really isn't much to argue with you. The ceasefires of the past were never honored. You're right. The only one I referred to was between Hamas and Israel that began in February 2005. This one, surprisingly was honored. And Hamas never really made a move until the Israelis attacked a civilian beach in June 2006. This can't be disputed either. You say there hasn't been a single day that a suicide bomber hasn't been smuggled into Israel or shot at a passing Israeli car. Well, first of all, the Israeli cars you refer to are military vehicles, otherwise there wouldn't be Israeli cars in Palestinian territory. And a suicide bomber every day? Not quite. Actually, not close. I realize that you believe that they are horrible people b/c of the violence that occurs. But here is something to think about. In the U.S. in 2005, there were 16,692 murders reported and 1.4 million violent crimes. Does that mean, that we as a whole, are a horrible nation? But, you're right, the Palestinians need to condemn the crimes commited against innocent Israeli civilians and they need to find the peretrators, and punish them.

To Alphamale: I have no problem that you search wikipedia. I get info there a lot, as long as they provide a legit source. That is where you got your Mark Twain quote. I just find it odd that out of everything on that page, that was the quote you would use. I think Twain was trying to stress the point that the living conditions were horrible and that there most of the people resided in small areas. You actually believe that there was NOBODY there in 1867? You're wrong. There were Jews, Christians, and Muslims there. But if you want to stick to your guns on your beliefs, then by all means. The League of Nations had placed the number at 700,000 Arabs in Palestine in the 1920's. So, I could see the number being at 1.3 million by 1948. However, there had to be a lot of Arabs coming into that region in that time period, just like there were Jews. When it comes to state recognition, you're right as well. Nobody recognizes them.

Just so you all know, my entire goal was for others to see both sides. When I argue with Arabs, I stand my ground and argue for the Israelis, b/c I find that their arguments are without fact and sometimes full of ignorance. But, when I visit this site, I feel compelled to do the same, but for the other side. Anyway, thanks for not burning me at the stake!!

[eliteforce]

Typical Zionist crap.
First of all the notion that the levant, which is the most fertile part of the ME region didn't have inhabitants prior to the Zionist movement which in effect started in 1895 with the first zionist conference in Europe. Large numbers of Zionist settlers didn't start to appear in Palestine until the 1930's & 1940s.

The Israelis are predominently european/russian/american (white) immigrants who came there since the 1930's.

You only need to go to Nazareth or Jenin or any Palestinian town and trace the familiy history of any Palestinian and you will find that a Palestinians parents were born in Palestine, and so were theirs, and so were theirs..thats called and indeginous people. The Israelis are immigrants, not indeginous. Saying your forefathers came from the levant or that Jews have historic ties to the land does not make you indeginous.

Yassir Arafat's entire family were from Jerusalem. Lets keep such things in perspective. This is a small region between Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt; it is not uncommon for someone from Texas to have extended family in Louisiana. Does that mean that Chinese people can come by force, expell all the white people into Louisiana, and say there were never white people in Texas?

If you look at CIA world factbook you will see that 51% of the population west of the Jordan are Palestinians/Palestinian (Arab) Israelis. So it doesn't matter where or exactly how they got there; they need to have equal rights to the country, in a 1 state solution or a 2 state solution. Settlements make a 2 state solution impossible and Israel is currently a racist aphartied state. Do we say that black people should not have equal rights in America because they came from Africa 100s of years ago?

One more thing about the Arab Muslims. It was the Byzantine (Roman) empire that first expelled Jews (and muslims) from Palestine. The Arabs bulldozed the Byzantines and let the Jews back in.
THEN, the 1st Crusaders invaded Palestine, murdered 30,000 Jews and Muslims in Jerusalem, expelled the rest out of the country. THE ARABS fought those bastards for 88 years, and when they retook Palestine again they let the Jews back in. They never put restrictions on how many jews could come back, any jew that wanted to go back, could go back in both situations!

THEN the European Zionist Jews come and expell 1,000,000 muslim and christian arabs in 1948!

The consistency here is that Romans/Byzantines/Crusaders/Zionists/Americans(in Iraq) are a racist white element bent on racist oppresion, genocide, and imperialism. Notice that when the Jews were dark skinned (like during the crusader period) there was no "jewdao christian", gee I wonder why?

Up until the beginning of the twentieth century, there was no one occupying the land that is now called "Palestine". They are squatters from surrounding Muslim countries. The name 'Palestine' means "land of the Phillistines". The name came about when the Roman Emporer, Hadrian destroyed the temple in 70 AD. Hadrian "renamed" Israel, 'Palestine' as a slap in the face (the phillistines were the long wiped out enemies of the Israelites). Yasser Arafat, the "father of Palestine" was an Egyptian. It is all a way for Muslims to try and claim a land they say is holy to them. Palestinians are a fictional people.

[alphaman]

Typical Zionist crap.
First of all the notion that the levant, which is the most fertile part of the ME region didn't have inhabitants prior to the Zionist movement which in effect started in 1895 with the first zionist conference in Europe. Large numbers of Zionist settlers didn't start to appear in Palestine until the 1930's & 1940s.

The Israelis are predominently european/russian/american (white) immigrants who came there since the 1930's.

What's your point? I didn't deny this.

You only need to go to Nazareth or Jenin or any Palestinian town and trace the familiy history of any Palestinian and you will find that a Palestinians parents were born in Palestine, and so were theirs, and so were theirs..thats called and indeginous people. The Israelis are immigrants, not indeginous. Saying your forefathers came from the levant or that Jews have historic ties to the land does not make you indeginous.

Uh-huh. We'll take your word for it.

You can call Israel racist, you can sympathize with terrorists, but anyone with a brain can see that Israel isn't the terrorist. Palestine is choking from sanctions, and on Saturday, formed this half assed moderate alliance between fatah and hamas to try and get sanctions lifted, but they didn't comply with the most critical points -- renounce violence and recognize Israel as a state! Instead the leader of Hamas highlights their "right to resistance" in his speech. They are a senseless, fanatically violent people.

Notice that when the Jews were dark skinned (like during the crusader period) there was no "jewdao christian", gee I wonder why?

What do you think Judaeo-Chrisitian means?

[singern]

To singern: There really isn't much to argue with you. The ceasefires of the past were never honored. You're right. The only one I referred to was between Hamas and Israel that began in February 2005. This one, surprisingly was honored. And Hamas never really made a move until the Israelis attacked a civilian beach in June 2006. This can't be disputed either. You say there hasn't been a single day that a suicide bomber hasn't been smuggled into Israel or shot at a passing Israeli car. Well, first of all, the Israeli cars you refer to are military vehicles, otherwise there wouldn't be Israeli cars in Palestinian territory. And a suicide bomber every day? Not quite. Actually, not close. I realize that you believe that they are horrible people b/c of the violence that occurs. But here is something to think about. In the U.S. in 2005, there were 16,692 murders reported and 1.4 million violent crimes. Does that mean, that we as a whole, are a horrible nation? But, you're right, the Palestinians need to condemn the crimes commited against innocent Israeli civilians and they need to find the peretrators, and punish them.
!

I’m sorry , I dont know where you get this fiction so allow me to fill you in. There has never been a ceasefire from Hamas or any other Palestinian group, ever.

Cars are shot at and stoned from cliftops every single day, They are 100% civilian vehicles,

The United States has 300 million people and 1.0 million crimes. The Palestinians have 1.5 million people and all of them dance and pass out candy when a terrorist kills Jews on a buss, or public place.
Hardly comparable

Lets have a look at todays news events, shall we:

Hamas showed its true colors on Monday, just two days after establishing a unity government, by taking credit for a terrorist attack at the Karni crossing.

On Monday morning a Palestinian sniper in the Gaza Strip shot and wounded an Israel Electric Corporation employee , Hamas took responsibility for the attack.


Meanwhile Monday, Egyptian authorities announced that they had detained a Hamas suicide bomber who was on his way to carry out an attack inside Israel.

Palestinians threw rocks at several Israeli cars south of Bethlehem on Tuesday morning. IDF troops were sweeping the area in search of the perpetrators.




There is a real problem when only one side of a story is told.

Shalom

[Bigen12]

Typical Zionist crap.
First of all the notion that the levant, which is the most fertile part of the ME region didn't have inhabitants prior to the Zionist movement which in effect started in 1895 with the first zionist conference in Europe. Large numbers of Zionist settlers didn't start to appear in Palestine until the 1930's & 1940s.

The Israelis are predominently european/russian/american (white) immigrants who came there since the 1930's.

And where did their ancestors live before they were forced out of their homeland to Europe/Russia and America?

[eliteforce]

Who knows and who cares, I'm not saying Jews should leave that country or that they don't have a right to live there, thats what these zionist extremists like alphaman say about the Palestinians and he says they are "squatters" suggesting they should be forced out of the country like homeless people from a condemned building.
By this logic white people (particularly anglo-saxon decendents that trace their family tree all the way back to the mayflower in America are actually "squaters" and they should be expelled because they only been there for 300 years or so. The Land was promised to siberians by some sungoddess, the siberians (Russia) settled there first therefore it's their land, and I'm afraid you will have to leave because it was not promised to nyou by God. So goes the idiotic zionist logic. To say the zionist are the same people as the people that were living there 4000 years ago? I think more accurate to say that the Palestinians are also the same people from 4000 years ago, Jewdiasm is a religion, geneology is a science. If your an indeginous arab then you are from thousands of years of people that lived where you live now, those people didn't disappear, they just intermarried.

between 1967-1986 there was little "terrorism" in the occupied territories and the Israelis built up hundredes of settlements all over the place anyways, on confiscated land, creating a ridiculously oppresive aphartied system..so the Palestinians do not get anything from not militantly resisting so why should they start? If Israel was really interested in ending "terrorism" they would go to final status negotiations.

[singern]

Typical Zionist crap.
First of all the notion that the levant, which is the most fertile part of the ME region didn't have inhabitants prior to the Zionist movement which in effect started in 1895 with the first zionist conference in Europe. Large numbers of Zionist settlers didn't start to appear in Palestine until the 1930's & 1940s.

Yassir Arafat's entire family were from Jerusalem. Lets keep such things in perspective. This is a small region between Palestine, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, Egypt; it is not uncommon for someone from Texas to have extended family in Louisiana. Does that mean that Chinese people can come by force, expell all the white people into Louisiana, and say there were never white people in Texas?

Typical Jihadist propoganda.
The Idea that Jews are not the indiginous people of the land is tattod on Nasralas ass, but has no value historicaly or realisticaly.

And for your information Yasser Arafat is Egyptian, Arafat was born and raised in Cairo on August 24, 1929. Arafat's father was a textile merchant. Arafat attended the University of King Fuad II (later renamed Cairo University).
The story that he is born in Israel is made to order for your consumption.

[alphaman]

Who knows and who cares, I'm not saying Jews should leave that country or that they don't have a right to live there, thats what these zionist extremists like alphaman say about the Palestinians and he says they are "squatters" suggesting they should be forced out of the country like homeless people from a condemned building.

I never said they didn't have a right to live there. What I do say is that they don't have claim over Israel. They don't have the right to kill innocent people. And Obama is an ass for coming to their side. They're hurting by their own choice.

[RamyGras]

I’m sorry , I dont know where you get this fiction so allow me to fill you in. There has never been a ceasefire from Hamas or any other Palestinian group, ever.

From February 2005-June 2006, Hamas did honor a ceasefire that was broken when Israelis bombed a civilian beach killing seven family members. Tell me where the fiction is here?

There is a real problem when only one side of a story is told.

When have you looked at this situation from both points of views? I have, on numerous occassions explained that I DO look at both points of views. However, why bother explaining the faults of the Palestinians, just about everybody else on this thread does a tremendous job of doing that? I know the Palestinians react in a very violent fashion, and if they would just protest in a non-violent way, they would make it a lot easier for others to see their point of view.

Let's look at some other news, shall we?:

http://www.jewishtimes.com/News/6395.stm

http://www.infozine.com/news/stories...iew/sid/21710/

http://www.jta.org/cgi-bin/iowa/news...fJewforte.html

And for those who believe that Fox News can do no wrong.....

http://www.informationclearinghouse....rticle7545.htm


Look, there's no arguing that the Israelis were there first a long, long time ago. And there is ABSOLUTELY no arguing that the Palestinians are by no means innocent people just getting attacked. They can be amazingly senseless. For example, killing the Israelis you mentioned earlier, just days after attempting to convince the world of their new partnership between Hamas/Fatah. The hypocrisy amazes me. But something I will NEVER understand is the obsession that a group of people that nobody in the world recognizes (Palestinians) must recognize Israel. If they don't exist, why must they recognize their sworn enemies? And how come it's okay for Israel and the rest of the world to not recognize the Palestinians, but the Palestinians are considered evil for not recognizing the Israelis? It's a double standard.

I'm not asking you to change your beliefs, I'm just asking you to look at both sides.

[RamyGras]

Let me just state that I don't take the Fox News part with even half a grain of salt. I was simply making a point.

[mcpeepants]

when there were ceasefires and when there were no ceasefires, Israel continued building settlements. so acting as though things would be alright if Palestinians did nothing is false.

I think Palestinians need to get a leader like Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi to lead a non-violent protest against Israel in order to achieve a one state solution (I personally don't think a 2-state solution will work). I always wanted to know how the west would react to something like that.

RamyGras, I like your point how the west demands the Palestinians to recognize the Israelis but they won't ask the same of the Israelis.

[alphaman]

when there were ceasefires and when there were no ceasefires, Israel continued building settlements. so acting as though things would be alright if Palestinians did nothing is false.

I think Palestinians need to get a leader like Martin Luther King Jr. or Ghandi to lead a non-violent protest against Israel in order to achieve a one state solution (I personally don't think a 2-state solution will work). I always wanted to know how the west would react to something like that.

RamyGras, I like your point how the west demands the Palestinians to recognize the Israelis but they won't ask the same of the Israelis.

It's amazing how you guys argue for the cause of ruthless, cowardly murderers. I mean, saying they should get a leader like MLK or Ghandi? Are you kidding? What are you smoking?

[RamyGras]

It's amazing how you guys argue for the cause of ruthless, cowardly murderers. I mean, saying they should get a leader like MLK or Ghandi? Are you kidding? What are you smoking?

I think he was trying to say that they need to protest in a non-violent manner. The cause isn't ruthless, cowardly murders. It's about a group of people suffering, and right now their universal representatives are ruthless, cowardly murderers. It's amazing how when you look at the situation, all you gather out of it is that they are crazy murderers. What is making them so darn crazy??? Why are they acting like this??? Surely, you have had to ask yourself these questions. I know, as an American, if I was moved from my home by a foreign people, I wouldn't let it slide. I wouldn't go killing innocent people, but I darn sure wouldn't lay down. They DO need a leader with some common sense and that knows how to deal with world leaders in a civil fashion.

But, you're right, it IS much easier to just call them a bunch of rabid animals and suggest putting them in cages (not that you used those exact words).

[Bigen12]

Who knows and who cares, I'm not saying Jews should leave that country or that they don't have a right to live there,

You seem too, take a look at what you posted.

The Israelis are predominently european/russian/american (white) immigrants who came there since the 1930's.

You only need to go to Nazareth or Jenin or any Palestinian town and trace the familiy history of any Palestinian and you will find that a Palestinians parents were born in Palestine, and so were theirs, and so were theirs..thats called and indeginous people. The Israelis are immigrants, not indeginous. Saying your forefathers came from the levant or that Jews have historic ties to the land does not make you indeginous.

Please clarify your position,

[eliteforce]

i really don't understand what i'm supposed to clarify, saying
"The Israelis are predominently european/russian/american (white) immigrants who came there since the 1930's."

in no way contradicts

"I'm not saying Jews should leave that country or that they don't have a right to live there"