Israel or Palestine?

[Undercover]

I know this probably belongs in the lounge, but it's political and thought I would get more serious answers.

So whose side are you on? and why? Just curious to know what you guys know/feel about this issue.

[Panzerfaust]

Well certainly it "was" the Palestinians land and the British made a deal with the "Jews" that if they could get the US involved in the war they would give them that land after.

And the rest is history!

I'd certainly hate to be a Palestinian living in what is nothing more than a concentration camp that is the Gaza strip.

[Matt]

X2 ^^^

[Flagg]

Israel and Palestine is a classic case of "might is right".

"We're stronger than you, so we can do what we want"...

I voted Palestine.

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Israel. They have hotter women.

[Flagg]

Israel. They have hotter women.

You're not wrong there mate.

[Kratos]

I think people who start these threads are brainwashed propaganda fed muslims who have an axe to grind on the issue and hope to recruit popular opinion to their side of the argument. Both sides are wrong but for different reasons.

[Undercover]

^^ wtf? i'm totally lost on the whole Muslim propaganda thing.

You have to choose a side. You either think the land should have stayed with the Palestinians or that are Jews were more entitled to it. The 'both sides are wrong' reasoning is the main cause of the ongoing Middle East crisis. One side has to be more wrong than the other or more reponsible for what's going on.

[Kratos]

^^ wtf? i'm totally lost on the whole Muslim propaganda thing.

You have to choose a side. You either think the land should have stayed with the Palestinians or that are Jews were more entitled to it. The 'both sides are wrong' reasoning is the main cause of the ongoing Middle East crisis. One side has to be more wrong than the other or more reponsible for what's going on.

The current state of Palestine is unfortunate, but Palestine made it's own bed. The Jews should have a right to live and exist. Muslims are more wrong. But, you won't be satisfied with that answer...actually it's the answer you were hoping to get from someone, so you would have a reason to state your case.

[Undercover]

Of course I won't be satisfied with that answer. Care to explain more? So far, you've just stated your opinion.

Stop thinking there's a hidden agenda behind my thread. I'm pretty sure I can't compete with Israeli PR campaigns, and even if I did, a steroids forum wouldn't be my starting point.

[DKU]

They're both nuts imo.

[thegodfather]

If someone doesn't see the 1940s situation in Israel as being analagous to Native American Indians coming to your town and evicting you and all of your neighbors because they lived there at one time centuries ago, then there is no point in arguing with that person.

Palestinians occupied the land most recently, and therefore they should be able to live there as citizens. Not the second class citizens that they are under the apartheid Israeli regime, where food, water, and medical care are used as weapons against 2 million innocent people. Causing 2 million people to suffer for the crimes of MAYBE a few THOUSAND terrorists will never be justified in my eyes, all politics aside.

What we have now is a big f**ing mess, and in my PERSONAL opinion the only solution would be a 2 state solution, and I use the word solution very hesitantly.

[Bio-boosted]

^^ wtf? i'm totally lost on the whole Muslim propaganda thing.

You have to choose a side. You either think the land should have stayed with the Palestinians or that are Jews were more entitled to it. The 'both sides are wrong' reasoning is the main cause of the ongoing Middle East crisis. One side has to be more wrong than the other or more reponsible for what's going on.

Palestine, as you see it today, is no less 'invented' than is the State of Israel.
It vanished 100's of years ago, falling eventually under Persian spears. What you see today is an Ottoman invention, an attempt to create an Islamic state that encompassed Jerusalem.
It is simply romantic to side with the 'original peoples of Palestine'; they are Turks, Moroccans and Persians.
Historically speaking, they are no more indigenous than the Jews who also want to settle. In fact i'd go further, but i'm not looking to upset people.

[MuscleScience]

My only question is, Where was America when the Romans were occupying Israel and oppressing the Jews???

[Tock]

IMHO, since the Arabs owned it last, it's theirs.

IMHO, the best solution to the problem is for the Arabs who live in Israel to keep increasing in population and then form a majority voting block, and then vote to become a state with Palestine, then elect a Palestinian majority government, make all the changes they want, and live happily ever after.
All it would take is lots of sex.

[alex18]

i say kick them both out and let the gypsies live there

[Undercover]

Palestine, as you see it today, is no less 'invented' than is the State of Israel.
It vanished 100's of years ago, falling eventually under Persian spears. What you see today is an Ottoman invention, an attempt to create an Islamic state that encompassed Jerusalem.
It is simply romantic to side with the 'original peoples of Palestine'; they are Turks, Moroccans and Persians.
Historically speaking, they are no more indigenous than the Jews who also want to settle. In fact i'd go further, but i'm not looking to upset people.

Wrong. "Recent genetic evidence has demonstrated that Palestinians as an ethnic group represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times," largely predating the Arabian Muslim conquest that resulted in their acculturation and the establishment of Arabic as the lingua franca, eventually becoming the sole vernacular of the locals, most of whom would over time also convert to Islam from various prior faiths."

I don't know where you got the idea that they're Turks, Moroccans, and Persians. That's like saying Egyptians are English or the Lebanese are French.

In fact, Palestinians, genetically and historically, are 'more Jewish' than Ashkenazi Jews. The argument is that why should a people who had nothing to do with the land for hundreds of years claim to be more deserving than the Palestinians. It doesn't seem fair that some European Jews have dual citizenship, while some Palestinians have none.

And you're wrong about the idea of Palestine. The boundaries have varied immensely long before the Ottoman Empire. What Palestinians claim to be modern day Palestine is not the Ottoman version, but rather the British mandate of Palestine (Sykes-Pico agreement and the Hussein-Mcmahon letters).

If someone doesn't see the 1940s situation in Israel as being analagous to Native American Indians coming to your town and evicting you and all of your neighbors because they lived there at one time centuries ago, then there is no point in arguing with that person.

Palestinians occupied the land most recently, and therefore they should be able to live there as citizens. Not the second class citizens that they are under the apartheid Israeli regime, where food, water, and medical care are used as weapons against 2 million innocent people. Causing 2 million people to suffer for the crimes of MAYBE a few THOUSAND terrorists will never be justified in my eyes, all politics aside.

What we have now is a big f**ing mess, and in my PERSONAL opinion the only solution would be a 2 state solution, and I use the word solution very hesitantly.

Agreed, but that can't happen with illegal settlements growing everywhere in the Palestinian territories. I really hope something comes out of the US-Israeli talks.

[Kratos]

I'm pretty sure I can't compete with Israeli PR campaigns, and even if I did, a steroids forum wouldn't be my starting point.

100 x more muslims in the world and they don't have PR campaigns of their own?

[Undercover]

When did I say anything about Muslims? But to answer your question, there's definitely Muslim propaganda out there, but most Muslim countries don't really care enough. Lebanon, Palestine, Syria, and Iran are the major players; Iran mostly for religious reasons.

Can you really compare the two? Israel's PR campaigns are extremely well-planned and generously financed.

If you have time on your hands, watch this film: http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...75898578139565

It's not Muslim propaganda, by the way. It's just a glance on how news about the Middle East conflict is handled in the US.

[MuscleScience]

Might equals right, has always been that way. Not saying its right unless you can kick my ass then your right, right?

[Bio-boosted]

Wrong. "Recent genetic evidence has demonstrated that Palestinians as an ethnic group represent modern "descendants of a core population that lived in the area since prehistoric times," largely predating the Arabian Muslim conquest that resulted in their acculturation and the establishment of Arabic as the lingua franca, eventually becoming the sole vernacular of the locals, most of whom would over time also convert to Islam from various prior faiths."

I don't know where you got the idea that they're Turks, Moroccans, and Persians. That's like saying Egyptians are English or the Lebanese are French.

In fact, Palestinians, genetically and historically, are 'more Jewish' than Ashkenazi Jews. The argument is that why should a people who had nothing to do with the land for hundreds of years claim to be more deserving than the Palestinians. It doesn't seem fair that some European Jews have dual citizenship, while some Palestinians have none.

And you're wrong about the idea of Palestine. The boundaries have varied immensely long before the Ottoman Empire. What Palestinians claim to be modern day Palestine is not the Ottoman version, but rather the British mandate of Palestine (Sykes-Pico agreement and the Hussein-Mcmahon letters).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ObB2WVFvw
Further more, as you've pointed out the boundaries have indeed varied over the years. I didn't want to bother going too far back but...
The land 'belonged' to the Egyptians who's neighbours were the Hebrews (Kingdom's of Judea & Israel). The Philistines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines) were the invaders.
These invaders/settlers waged a near constant war against the Jews - Chaim Herzog & Mordechai Gichon, Battles of the Bible, Barnes & Noble Publishing, 2006 - a classic being ole David & Goliath (Valley Of Elah)
Palestine was fully erased many times over the years, but the land spread you see today though is similar to biblical times- but are they peopled by ancient Canaanites today? No. This is their gene spread - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_%28Y-DNA%29
But of course the real problem is a religious one (imo, less a territorial one). The Jew is the fly in the ointment, it is their faith that forms the foundation of Islam. And now they have returned and occupy an important holy site. One they now share. As some desire, like that Iranian bigot dinner-jacket, if the Jews are wiped from existence Islam is purified. And it is this that is the real bother.
I'd bother with deeper detail, but it is late.

[thegodfather]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=53ObB2WVFvw
Further more, as you've pointed out the boundaries have indeed varied over the years. I didn't want to bother going too far back but...
The land 'belonged' to the Egyptians who's neighbours were the Hebrews (Kingdom's of Judea & Israel). The Philistines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines) were the invaders.
These invaders/settlers waged a near constant war against the Jews - Chaim Herzog & Mordechai Gichon, Battles of the Bible, Barnes & Noble Publishing, 2006 - a classic being ole David & Goliath (Valley Of Elah)
Palestine was fully erased many times over the years, but the land spread you see today though is similar to biblical times- but are they peopled by ancient Canaanites today? No. This is their gene spread - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_J1_%28Y-DNA%29
But of course the real problem is a religious one (imo, less a territorial one). The Jew is the fly in the ointment, it is their faith that forms the foundation of Islam. And now they have returned and occupy an important holy site. One they now share. As some desire, like that Iranian bigot dinner-jacket, if the Jews are wiped from existence Islam is purified. And it is this that is the real bother.
I'd bother with deeper detail, but it is late.

It is so trivial for you to go that far back in history. You only need to deal with 1919 and forward. Were people who had nothing to do with these past conflicts leaving peacefully on the presently occupied land? YES. Are these same people now being oppressed, demoted to 2nd class citizen status? YES. Is water, food, and medical treatment being used as a weapon and means of control over 3 million innocent civilians who have nothing to do with a 'conflict'? YES.

Who did what to who 1,000 years ago doesn't mean jack shit to the present situation. The Jewish settlers have uprooted people who had every right to live on the land that they were living on. Settlements are inside of the West Bank and Gaza which are against international law, they are illegal. Non-Jews do not have the right to move freely about 'their' land, and a host of other things. So there is in essence, no difference between what Israel is doing now, and what South Africa did for so many years. They oppressed the indigenous population, demoted them to 2nd class citizens, and evicted them from their land and forced them to live in ghettos.

Whats even more appauling, is that Israel is doing to 3 million people, what Germany did to millions Jewish people. The only difference? Israel is doing it slow and painfully, and Hitler did it quick and fast. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing, it doesn't matter what face you put on it.

Asking who attacked who, is really an argument like the chicken or the egg. Do Palestinians commit suicide bombings because they hate Jews and their religion? Of course not, that is as absurd as saying Arabs commit terrorism against America because we are "Free and prosperous, and they hate our way of life and our freedom." Arabs commit terrorism against the US because we have been meddling in their affairs for 60 years, overthrowing their elected governments, installing dictators, setting up bases on their holy land, etc. Palestinians commit suicide bombings because Israel has evicted millions of people from their land which was rightfully theirs, routinely targets civilians in engagements, uses civilians as human shields, starves them of food and water, denies them freedom of movement, denies them access to medical care, and has imprisoned them in two areas known as the Gaza strip and West Bank. After all, Palestinians didn't commit suicide bombings prior to the formation of Israel and the eviction of its people did it?

[Bio-boosted]

Absurd, yes! Trivial, no.
History is the explanation for where we are today. What you think, trivial, is very important to others.
But I can't be bothered anymore, because what you are getting at is true. To dig too deep or far back is to make the concerns of those in dire need today seem... trivial.

Here's a passing thought tho, check these two 90sec graphic vids out. No, they don't back up my ideas. But if you have 3 mins to spare you might like what you see. I've bookmarked them, good quick bit o history (of religion and imperialism), enjoy!
http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/history-of-religion.html
http://www.mapsofwar.com/ind/imperial-history.html

peace

[TJ09]

Israel follow the bible back to the beginning and it was given to Abraham(Jew)

[Panzerfaust]

It is so trivial for you to go that far back in history. You only need to deal with 1919 and forward. Were people who had nothing to do with these past conflicts leaving peacefully on the presently occupied land? YES. Are these same people now being oppressed, demoted to 2nd class citizen status? YES. Is water, food, and medical treatment being used as a weapon and means of control over 3 million innocent civilians who have nothing to do with a 'conflict'? YES.

Who did what to who 1,000 years ago doesn't mean jack shit to the present situation. The Jewish settlers have uprooted people who had every right to live on the land that they were living on. Settlements are inside of the West Bank and Gaza which are against international law, they are illegal. Non-Jews do not have the right to move freely about 'their' land, and a host of other things. So there is in essence, no difference between what Israel is doing now, and what South Africa did for so many years. They oppressed the indigenous population, demoted them to 2nd class citizens, and evicted them from their land and forced them to live in ghettos.

Whats even more appauling, is that Israel is doing to 3 million people, what Germany did to millions Jewish people. The only difference? Israel is doing it slow and painfully, and Hitler did it quick and fast. Ethnic cleansing is ethnic cleansing, it doesn't matter what face you put on it.

It is ok because they are Jews, you know the special people who can do no wrong. An idiot can go back at look at history and see the havoc they cause everywhere they go. Yet they have everyone believing "Poor Jews"..bla bla bla

Asking who attacked who, is really an argument like the chicken or the egg. Do Palestinians commit suicide bombings because they hate Jews and their religion? Of course not, that is as absurd as saying Arabs commit terrorism against America because we are "Free and prosperous, and they hate our way of life and our freedom." Arabs commit terrorism against the US because we have been meddling in their affairs for 60 years, overthrowing their elected governments, installing dictators, setting up bases on their holy land, etc. Palestinians commit suicide bombings because Israel has evicted millions of people from their land which was rightfully theirs, routinely targets civilians in engagements, uses civilians as human shields, starves them of food and water, denies them freedom of movement, denies them access to medical care, and has imprisoned them in two areas known as the Gaza strip and West Bank. After all, Palestinians didn't commit suicide bombings prior to the formation of Israel and the eviction of its people did it?

Amen!

Bold

[mho]

I know this probably belongs in the lounge, but it's political and thought I would get more serious answers.

So whose side are you on? and why? Just curious to know what you guys know/feel about this issue.

What is Palestine? Is that a new country or something?

[kickinit]

Both are shit holes.

[*El Diablo*]

+1 for Israel. My middle name is Israel. Im a Jew.

[BJJ]

My only question is, Where was America when the Romans were occupying Israel and oppressing the Jews???

drunk?

[BJJ]

Israel follow the bible back to the beginning and it was given to Abraham(Jew)

Yes sure, the Bible is the right book to follow!


You are drunk as well, right?

[BJJ]

1948, David Ben-Gurion declares the foundation of the State of Israel (14th May). Israel is recognised immediately by the United States and the USSR, followed by the other countries. In war of independence, the day after, the armies of Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon and a quota by Iraq invades the new state. In 15 months of intense fighting, all the invaders are rejected. Then, it was founded the Defence Forces of Israel (IDF), incorporating all the organizations of defence; hence the army of Israel called "Zhaal". Mass migration from Europe in the II WW and also started to come Jews by the Arab countries. In the years to come Israel doubled its Jewish population. The anti-Semitic prejudice nourished for centuries of lies that in literature and popular belief were considered truth without appeal. The propaganda feeds similarly of lies that, radically changing the history and creeping abominations, are intended to undermine and demonise Israel as before the Jews. So, many lies became indisputable a x i o m s!
I'll mention 5 of them:

1. Zionism is a racist movement.
2. Palestine, as the name suggests, is the land of Palestinians, that the Jews have seized.
3. The Israeli control of Jerusalem, threat religious freedom and access to the Holy Places.
4. If Israel end the occupation of the Palestinian territories there would be the peace in the Middle East.
5. The only solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the creation of a State transnational where the two people share the same land.

[Kratos]

Whats even more appauling, is that Israel is doing to 3 million people, what Germany did to millions Jewish people. The only difference? Israel is doing it slow and painfully, and Hitler did it quick and fast.?

So, they should have done what muslims did in the pakistan partition when they killed millions of hindu for no good reason other then wanting a Muslim nation seperate from India.

These are people who waged war against Israel and ended up behind fences as a result. Not innocent citizens. It isn't so simple.

[Nooomoto]

Me and some Army buddies got into a brawl with about 30 Israeli jews one night...we stood our ground (3 vs 30ish)...took some and dealt some. They showed a lot of respect in the end and we are pretty good friends with a few of them now. So...I'll go with Israel. Somehow I don't think a bunch of Palestinians would be that cool.

[Older lifter]

We would all be better just dropping all religion period, so sick of the whole lot.

Heaven and hell,,, well if there is such places people won't be going to any heaven thats for sure....

[crazy_rocks]

a basic knowledge in the history of the issue would lead anyone with common sense to choose israel.

[eliteforce]

basic facts:

1948- British 'peacekeepers' are forced to leave by zionist terrorists and presure from america and western zionists.. 800,000 Palestinians are expelled so a "jewish state' Israel could be created or invented in British Mandate Palestine, a country that has a jewish population that is no more than 1/4 and 3/4s being Palestinian, in the 1920s the jewish population was 10% , the sudden increase due to waves of immigrants from Europe. Israel's founding war takes place after Arabs reject partition of the country into several cantons; instead they insist that the country be represented democratically with jews taking minority representation.

1967- Israel creates a pretext and occupies the rest of Palestine, another 2-400,000 Palestinians are forced out in the war.

1967-now - Israel uses a brutal system of aphartied, land consfiscations, house demolitions, jewish only roads, harassment, torture, detensions w/o trial, and ethnic cleansing in the worst racist oppresion the world has ever seen..

[crazy_rocks]

basic facts:

1948- British 'peacekeepers' are forced to leave by zionist terrorists and presure from america and western zionists.. 800,000 Palestinians are expelled so a "jewish state' Israel could be created or invented in British Mandate Palestine, a country that has a jewish population that is no more than 1/4 and 3/4s being Palestinian, in the 1920s the jewish population was 10% , the sudden increase due to waves of immigrants from Europe. Israel's founding war takes place after Arabs reject partition of the country into several cantons; instead they insist that the country be represented democratically with jews taking minority representation.

1967- Israel creates a pretext and occupies the rest of Palestine, another 2-400,000 Palestinians are forced out in the war.

1967-now - Israel uses a brutal system of aphartied, land consfiscations, house demolitions, jewish only roads, harassment, torture, detensions w/o trial, and ethnic cleansing in the worst racist oppresion the world has ever seen..

basic facts.

the palestinians that were expelled were few. the majority that did leave did so out of safety for a invasion against israel that its arab neighbors warned about.

if the palestinians followed the resolution 181 they would have had their own state along time ago.

normally when a country goes to war with another and wins land is kept. many countries attacked israel in the six day war. israel won and kept what they felt they should. not sure what you find wrong.

worst racist oppression in history? you must be a holocaust denier

[xlxBigSexyxlx]

Israel FTW!


/thread

[eliteforce]

basic facts.

the palestinians that were expelled were few. the majority that did leave did so out of safety for a invasion against israel that its arab neighbors warned about.

They mostly left because zionist terrorists were conducting an ethnic cleansing campaign, this is well documented, it's the same tactic used in the balkins decades later; but even if they were just fleeing war-refugees often flee a war zone, when Germany invaded France there were long lines of refugees but once France surrendered, even hitler allowed them go back to the country or area they fled..
the difference here is 'Israel the jewish state' refused to let them back in to their homes once the armistice went into effect, so clearly they had an agenda by forcing them out in the first place, a UN resolution demanded that they be let back home but it was ignored.

keep in mind zionism isn't just giving a homeland to jews by moving them to palestine, so they can be palestinians, like jews going to america and being americans.. it's getting rid of the people there because they're not jewish and establishing a 'jewish state'.. it's just so fdup! there were already jews there-palestinians jews, and they were living in peace there with christians and muslims.. Why wasn't zionism just getting jews over there to be Palestinians, like to be Americans or Argentinians or south africans and everywhere else where jews have migrated from europe.. no they get this .. can't everyone see this-zionism is an outdated fascist ideology from a bygone era..

basic facts.
if the palestinians followed the resolution 181 they would have had their own state along time ago.

if they accepted partition, as I stated earlier they wanted their rights as the majority of the population, they were forced to take european refugees so they should at least have fair representation, but in the 181 partition the 'jewish' segregated areas had a Palestinian population of 40%, no one mentioned what was supposed to happen to them-presumably they were supposed to be expelled into the 'arab' part, and the only reason the zionists accepted that ridiculous plan was because they knew the Palestinians would reject it- zionists wanted even more, they wanted jordan too.

normally when a country goes to war with another and wins land is kept. many countries attacked israel in the six day war. israel won and kept what they felt they should. not sure what you find wrong.

worst racist oppression in history? you must be a holocaust denier

not sure what you find wrong. have you been to the WB! what I find wrong is that they kept the land BUT didn't extend equal rights to the indigenous population that lived on it! When the US won a war against mexico and the kept California-anyone living there became Americans. see you can do that because 'America' isn't this racist 'white only' nation state, anyone is an american..but the Palestinians cannot be 'Israeli' thats a "jewish state"

what israelis did instead is create an aphartied scheme, one worse than south africa and thats why i call it the worst..

the holocaust was when millions of jews, gypsies, and ethni minorities were exterminated, i'm speaking in terms of forced ghettoisation .. which the Germans subjected Jews to in the early years of the war before America started bombing the hell out of them and they started exterminating prisoners. it was also about the time that German occupied countries like belgium, holland, and the rest of them were experiencing food shortages.

btw America kept Japanese Americans in concentration camps, one has to wonder what would have happened to them had Japan carpet bombed san francisco, chicago, and new york and there were food shortages..i'm pretty sure they would have been dead.

the reason palestine is the worst because it has been going on for more than 60 years in 'peacetime' ..

all that other stuff was during world war where 60 million people died in addition to those upto 6 million jews that were killed, including 8 million various peoples executed by stalin.

and lets not forget the million iraqis that have died just recently because of yet another zionist war.. funny how american politians and commentators are more concerned about 6 million people dying 60 years ago than they are millions dying now.

[Kratos]

They mostly left because zionist terrorists were conducting an ethnic cleansing campaign, this is well documented, it's the same tactic used in the balkins decades later; but even if they were just fleeing war-refugees often flee a war zone, when Germany invaded France there were long lines of refugees but once France surrendered, even hitler allowed them go back to the country or area they fled..
the difference here is 'Israel the jewish state' refused to let them back in to their homes once the armistice went into effect, so clearly they had an agenda by forcing them out in the first place, a UN resolution demanded that they be let back home but it was ignored.

Where was hitler going to put them? Germany???
He was trying to take over the world dumb ass. If you just push them out of the current border, you just end up fighting them again. Martial law is how Hitler delt with them.

Amrmistice but no argreement for peace has been reached, which is why they remain where they are.