Power lifting routine questions

[X-Tank]

I have been bodybuilding for 6 years and started doing powerlifts. I am really digging this powerlifting stuff since everything is blowing up. My real concern is with all these routines is there any way to incorperate a powerlifiting/bodybuilding routine and make it work or would it be best to do seperate routines like powerlifit in the winter/bodybuild in the summer months to let your joints recover. What I have been doing is just throwing in deadlifts since I basically do everything else but you would think in my 6 years of training I would have learned that you cant go heavy all year. So my question is should I make up like 12 week routines for deadlifting then take a break considering my joints but then again I would like my deadlift to get over 600 I am currently stuck there. Thanks for the help guys.

[saboudian]

I think we were talking about this over on bolex. Anyways, i tried to incorporate WSB and BB into one split and this was the first split i tried

Day 1 ME Bench/Tri's
Day 2 ME S/DL
Day 3 Shoulder/Bi/misc
Day 4 Off
Day 5 DE Bench/Tri's
Day 6 DE S/DL
Day 7 Lats/calves/misc
Day 8 Off
repeat


Well, after about 3 weeks or so on this type of split, i found out that i was overtraining and i need much more rest and after going through it i realize why the WSB split is the way it is and why you shouldn't fuck with it. Anyways I followed the standard WSB split for about 2 weeks and i found that on my bench days, after i got done with bench work and tri work, i had very lil if any energy for any shoulder or lat work, so i decided to fuck around with the WSB split again and this is what i came up with.

Day 1 ME Bench/Tri's/Bi's
Day 2 Off
Day 3 ME S/DL
Day 4 OFF
Day 5 DE Bench/Tri's
Day 6 Shoulder/Lats/calves/misc
Day 7 OFF
Day 8 DE S/DL
Repeat

Every now and then i throw an extra day off in there if I feel i need it. Your suggestion of periodizing your workouts is a good one, and i've incorporated it into my scheme. Right now i'm doing

8 weeks PLing (also trying to do some GPP 2-3 time/week)
3 weeks Hypertrophy
1 week Off
Repeat

My emphasis this year is to focus on muscle density and thickness, which is why PLing dominates my periodized approach. Next year, I plan on focusing more on size and detail, so PLing will probably still be in my approach but it'll be dominated more by hypertrophy and circuit type training, and i also plan to compete in summer '05 so i have to figure that into the battle plan.

If your main focus is PLing and getting that stubborn DL up, then your best bet would probably be a pure WSB split, but its up to you. I am a BBer trying to incorporate and take advantage of WSB principles and want to compete in a BB show again one day which is one of the reasons i do not go pure WSB year round. You'll have to make your own call here and figure out what your goals really are and then go from there.

Anyways, thats my experience so far with it, hope that helps.

[X-Tank]

Thanks for the info. What you came up with is something i was trying to figure out and from the sound of it i might rotate my routines occordining to my body and joints. Since I also would like to compete in BB someday but you cant beat the mass Pl gives you or i should say deadlifts.

[xxxl83]

Just follow a basic westside routine and add some BB movements at the end of the workout.

xxxl83

[saboudian]

Just follow a basic westside routine and add some BB movements at the end of the workout.

xxxl83

You could try that, but you won't really be able to attack certain parts like you could if you were on a hypertrophy routine for example. Like i said on my bench days, i usually have very lil energy after i do tri's and sometimes i can squeeze out a couple sets for Bi's but thats it. So my shoulders and Lats would lack because i would have no energy left for them at the end of my workouts or it would be a half-assed effort if i did try.

I find i have this same problem on my S/DL days, by time i get done training lower back, quads, hams, and abs, i'm done and thats it. So i'm leaving out my intercostals, calves, soleus, and traps.

I take it that when you refer to "add BB movements" you mean hypertrophy techniques. Its not just lil things like leg extensions that BBers do, its the whole technique. When i train for hypertrophy, i incorporate alot of big giant sets, short rest intervals, drop sets, etc. It is simply too demanding to for example max out on your DL, do a superset of GHR and Stiff legged DL's, do a giant set of leg extensions, box squats, and then finish off with a drop set of leg presses. Then you would still have abs to do. This would be a very demanding workout.

The other problem is that WSB doesn't emphasize areas that are not important. For example, upper chest and flies would never be touched or at least be given very lil attention.

Another problem is that many BBers have weak spots, and usually the best way to go about fixing weak spots is to emphasize them at the beginning of a workout, so if you have bad Bi's then you'd be outta luck.

If you saw the pics of PLerJay, then you would notice that he was a very muscular and a big guy, but his symetry was horrible. PLing simply placed too much emphasis on certain parts and other parts didn't get as much emphasis and it showed.

Anyways i feel bad for bashing WSB so much but it is a great split for PLing and there are many great concepts in there. I think you just have to understand that its not a BBing split, and this will come apparrent when you try it and you will realize there are a lot of problems with it for BBers. WSB has taught me a great deal and if you can grasp the concepts, i think that BBers can really get alot from it.

Anyways, i just wanted to explain to xxxl in further detail and the problems i encountered on this split. Some may have these problems, some may not, some may have different problems and there are probably many other solutions for BBers, but so far this is the only approach i've come up with.

[saboudian]

Oh i did realize that l left some things out and i'm sure ppl will probably call me out on them and tell me i'm an idiot and i don't know anything about WSB, but i think at this point i've already probably written too much as it is. I'm just pointing out a few things, the whole picture becomes much clearer when you actually try it.

[Huge Presser]

Saboudian, thanks for the info. I'm with you 100% on WSB... speed is overrated, and the routine puts too much emphasis on the top of the lift, so you can kiss your pecs goodbye. I like the way you set up your routine.

Peace,
HP

[solidj55]

Saboudian, thanks for the info. I'm with you 100% on WSB... speed is overrated, and the routine puts too much emphasis on the top of the lift, so you can kiss your pecs goodbye. I like the way you set up your routine.

Peace,
HP

I said the same thing a long long time ago when I tried Westside the first time(yea I tried it for several different cycles). I was very unimpressed with it to say the least. I am old school all the way when it comes to getting strong.

[xxxl83]

Ok guy's let's see if I can clear some of this wsb stuff up?

The not having any energy to do BB work after the PL exercises thing.--
One of the bigest mistakes newcomers to WSB make is they take on too much volume at once. You need to start off with minimal volume and increase it as your GPP (general physical perparedness) increases this is why WSB uses "extra workouts" (sled work pro-active recovery, etc..)to increase GPP and volume.

The hypertrophy thing.--
By adding BB type movements and techniques at the end of the workout you will build muscle mass. By training assisting and stablizing muscle groups after your PL work the muscle is already pre-fatigued. It works try it, us powerlifters need to put on some muscle too.
Oh and about PLjay his symetry was just fine although he may have been out of Proportion a bit which is probably what you meant.

The speed is over-rated thing. Speed is not over rated.
Speed training is a complicated process that takes time to get right. Weight percentages, bands, chains, and technique all play a part in this. So the more variables you add to your training the harder it is to get them all to "come together". Also for the occasional guy who has natural speed you're right it may not be a big deal.

The WSB put too much emphasis on the top of the lift thing. --
The DE day is for the bottom of the lift but if you think the that wsb is all about the top of the lift here maybe a a couple basic reasons. 1. The routine is set up for competive lifters in which case bench shirts are used so you already have good bit of help getting the bar off the chest 2. Most people fail lifts on lock out. 3. If you are having problems getting the bar off your chest it's because of your LACK OF SPEED. so obviously you weren't doing something right reguarding your speed training.

If you don't understand something don't just bash it because you don't like it, or don't understand it.
Different things work for different people I'll be the first to tell you that but don't discount some of the methods that have produced some of the strongest people in the world.

I hope this cleared a few things up.

xxxl83

[saboudian]

I pretty much agree with everything you've said xxxl83.

The point i was trying to make (and i probably did not do a very good job of it) is that its not a good idea to just do WSB and add BB movements, and do this type of training year round if your focus is BBing. I've messed around with it, and it didn't work for me very simply and although i know different things work for different people, i can see it as only being very problem traumatic as most will find when they try it out, which is what you really have to do to understand what i mean.

Then you will understand the variety of problems that come, i tried to outline a few above, but everyone will obviously encounter different problems.

[X-Tank]

Great info here guys maybe more people will read it. I honestly am trying to come up with some sort of cycling theory where for lets say 12 weeks I can concentrate on pure pl movements (still incorperating assistance and bb movements) and then the next 12 weeks still incorperate pl movement but concentrate on bb movements to sculpt your body from the mass you have gained ( and give your joints a rest) durning your heavy 12 week cycle. I am not an expert and am just throwing this out there.

[xxxl83]

Saboudian,

You're right but, my question is why would a BB train like a powerlifter? I think x-tank is confused about what his goals are or maybe I'm confused about what his goals are. If you want to be a powerlifter train like one, if you want to be a BB train like a BBer. Now if he's looking for some sort of periodization training to gain muscle mass for the winter then diet down and get lean for the summmer then maybe that would be his best bet.

Above I was just trying to clear up some WSB concepts.

xxxl83

[solidj55]

XXX83, I dont think anyone was bashing WS they were just stating their opinions. I think what you as well as everyone else on this thread said is valid. My experience with WS was negative because it didnt seem to help my raw or shirted bench. I didnt have high volume in the begining, I worked up to what it should be. I gave it a fair shot(16 total weeks).
I mean, it helped my shirted max some but nothing that I couldnt have gotten faster from my old school routine. Your right about the speed, I have a naturally fast stroke, its really damn fast, so speed didnt really do much for me. The ME work is a good idea but I feel that for a naturally fast person more emphasis should be put on full range of motion movements rather than just the top of the lift. My sticking point would change from time to time but I feel that doing board work, etc messed me up because its only a partial movement. Different strokes for different folks. Some people I know that use WS get awesome gains in size and strenght(raw and equiped). Just doesnt work for me. Oh and the reason bodybuilders train as a powerlifter is usually because strength=size in the long term if used correctly and there is no density and developement like a lean powerlifter.

[saboudian]

Saboudian,

You're right but, my question is why would a BB train like a powerlifter? I think x-tank is confused about what his goals are or maybe I'm confused about what his goals are. If you want to be a powerlifter train like one, if you want to be a BB train like a BBer. Now if he's looking for some sort of periodization training to gain muscle mass for the winter then diet down and get lean for the summmer then maybe that would be his best bet.

Above I was just trying to clear up some WSB concepts.

xxxl83

Well a BBer might want to train like a PLer to get that beautiful thick, dense muscle. Thats my hopes from a WSB type of system. I know many ex-PLer's turned BBers all feel that they did not waste anytime by doing PLing earlier in their career and most feel it gave them an edge later in their BBing careers.

The only reason that i didn't do pure WSB is that i didn't want certain bodyparts to fall way behind so i just modified it a bit.

I think WSB can be a great method whether you're dieting down or bulking up. Its either going to increase your strength or its going to keep you from losing your strength. There are many ways to incorporate it no matter what your strategy is, I think you just have to figure out what your goals are and it will be much clearer on how or if you should incorporate it, which is kinda what you were saying xxxl83.

[slobberknocker]

Powerlifting gives you what many bodybuilders call "muscle maturity." To echo Saboudian, it gives you "thick, dense muscle." A lot of bb'ers spend years and years trying to achieve that look.