Endus's Sarm S4 (lyons) log

[Okinawa_Power]

Another record - I now don't have any doubt about S4 and strength increase.

Day 19 (shoulder):

I've increase my shoulder press by another 10lb but big increase was on Upright row - I've went up another 20lb!

Day 20 (legs):

This is where I've set a new record. I did my squat at 3 plates like normal but felt light. Did it anyway to failure and did 2 more reps.

The leg press was another matter - I've warmed up with 5 plate and went up to 7 plates and still felt like I could of went another 1/2 plate. I got tired more from loading and unloading the plate.

Another strange thing - other than couple of occasion, everything looked normal. No yellow tint - weird! Again it comes and go but it was wonderful to see normal colors.

One other development - I've decided to hire an online trainer. I found 2 guys - Shelby Starnes or Phil Hernon. Anybody heard of these guys? I seen their transformational stuff and looks amazing. I'm not ready for AAS due to my high fat % or length of workout at this point, so I figure this would be a better course (I know, S4 was done on a whim).

Yes Bass, I'll have to take several pics to send it to these guys so I'll post

Cheers.

Endus it must suck for you that you have to load and unload all those plates!!!!!! I am glad your strength is going up!!! You don't need an online trainer you have this website!!!! Spend the money you plan on paying them on some more S4!!!!! Don't do it brother!!!!!

[endus]

Endus it must suck for you that you have to load and unload all those plates!!!!!! I am glad your strength is going up!!! You don't need an online trainer you have this website!!!! Spend the money you plan on paying them on some more S4!!!!! Don't do it brother!!!!!

Hah, compared to you, I'm a lightweight. It must take you an hour just to load/unload for every exercise you do.

I'm going to back down on a weight a bit though - like any new found strength, I may went bit overboard. I'm definitely feeling it a little on my knee today. Will take it easy next week.

Trainer is more out of my lazyness and constant confusion about what is good/bad than anything else. I figure these guys could get me through some of the humps, instead of posting dozens of post about routine or diet, which will further lead to more confusion due to varying opinion. Sometimes not thinking is priceless?

[TexSavant]

The half-life of Ostarine/S-4 is 4 hours

[Okinawa_Power]

Hah, compared to you, I'm a lightweight. It must take you an hour just to load/unload for every exercise you do.

I'm going to back down on a weight a bit though - like any new found strength, I may went bit overboard. I'm definitely feeling it a little on my knee today. Will take it easy next week.

Trainer is more out of my lazyness and constant confusion about what is good/bad than anything else. I figure these guys could get me through some of the humps, instead of posting dozens of post about routine or diet, which will further lead to more confusion due to varying opinion. Sometimes not thinking is priceless?

Brother you have TOP for your diet, Bass gives great advice about working out...You can PM them and don't have to worry about starting a thread just use PM....Also hit me up on your work-outs I will give you a hand!!

[endus]

Here's update on my cycle,

Day 21-22 - off days.

Day 23 - 27 - same routine as last week. Strength is about same as last week.

Day 28 - 29 - off days.

Not much have changed since last week. No large strength gains like previous week - just steady at this point. The vision problem is about the same and is affecting my mood. Its difficult to feel positive when everything is tinted or looks darker. At night, even with lights on, it feels darker... and requires additional attention.

As a side note, on 28th day, I've increase my dosage to 150mg/day. This will be my last week on S4 and I wanted to experiment to see if higher dosage will have any effect. I wanted to run this cycle for 8 weeks but I have a vacation coming up and I'll need my night vision. Cheers

[endus]

Day 30 - 31 (chest/back days),

As mentioned, I've increased my dosage to (from 90-100mg) 150mg-200mg on day 28 (not very precise I know - marking has worn off on my syringe) and it took 2 days for me to feel the effects...

1) strength - again increased bit more but not as much as 2nd week. Still I was surprised at this point.

2) Aggression - first time I've noticed. When working out, I've noticed much more aggressive mood - almost mad like feel. Was great as I did extra reps on every one of my sets!!!

3) Vision - really bad at this point. Almost to a point where driving is (amost) out of the question. I'm also seeing a color wheel effect where color is changing from light blue to green to pink - every couple of seconds. This is constant.

4) Libido - through the roof. Even more than last week.

I am now lowering my doses so I could end the cycle by end of the week. If someone can figure the vision issue at high dosage, this would be a killer. I should have my before after pics next week.

Cheers

[bass]

wow 200mgs! i know the vision thing sucks...i look forward to seeing your pics...

[endus]

Day 32 - today was my off day.

I've lowered my dosage to 50mg and will keep it at this level until Thursday, then I will stop.

The vision issue at 150-200mg was intense. It not only affected night vision, it also affected day light vision as well. The color cycling when looking at a computer monitor (LCD) was amusing for few seconds but not much fun after that.

During the day, I've noticed some blurring and I had to focus lot more to see things clearly. Hope I didn't do any damage to my vision.

Just as I've expected, the vision improved in about 12 hours (after going down to 50mg - I'm getting good at predicting what S4 will do to my body/vision) and is improving every hour. I think it will take few more days to go back to week 2-3 level, then another week to completely get rid of them (I hope).

[endus]

wow 200mgs! i know the vision thing sucks...i look forward to seeing your pics...

I can't tell the difference, I do feel bit harder but still see a little porker. My wife did noticed that I've changed a bit - she will be taking pics this weekend.

When are you starting your S4 cycle again? I'm starting it back as soon as I come back from my vacation.

[endus]

hey this is a great log mate! i was wondering i always here bout strength/endurance gains. but have u had any good size gains?

Thanks!

Hard to tell - I am on a cutting cycle but I haven't lost a single pound. My calorie intake is definitely lower and is fairly clean - I've even got rid of the cheat day/meal but no dice - actually even gained a pound. Only difference in diet was higher protein intake but less calories overall - weird.

[bass]

I can't tell the difference, I do feel bit harder but still see a little porker. My wife did noticed that I've changed a bit - she will be taking pics this weekend.

When are you starting your S4 cycle again? I'm starting it back as soon as I come back from my vacation.

glad your vision is getting better, don't worry, it will come back 100%. as for my next cycle, most likely February next year. three months at 25-50mgs per day. mainly just to help keep muscle while cutting. i will do blood test every 2-4 weeks just to be sure...

[bass]

hey endus, i meant to ask you but keep forgetting! are you still taking your dose all at once or are you splitting it?

[endus]

hey endus, i meant to ask you but keep forgetting! are you still taking your dose all at once or are you splitting it?

For 90-100mg, I've split it into 2 dose - 10am and hour before workout (around 5-6pm). For 150-200mg (turns out it was more like 220 - stupid marking), I did same but added 3rd - midnight dosage.

[cvictorg]

Day 32 - today was my off day.

I've lowered my dosage to 50mg and will keep it at this level until Thursday, then I will stop.

The vision issue at 150-200mg was intense. It not only affected night vision, it also affected day light vision as well. The color cycling when looking at a computer monitor (LCD) was amusing for few seconds but not much fun after that.

During the day, I've noticed some blurring and I had to focus lot more to see things clearly. Hope I didn't do any damage to my vision.

Just as I've expected, the vision improved in about 12 hours (after going down to 50mg - I'm getting good at predicting what S4 will do to my body/vision) and is improving every hour. I think it will take few more days to go back to week 2-3 level, then another week to completely get rid of them (I hope).

I think that the yellow vision and impaired night vision that people are reporting are side effects of acute overdose of S-4.

The only clinical trials on S-4 are the ones that GTx is doing for Ostarine (their brand name for S-4). But their clinical trials used up to 3mg TOTAL per day, not per kg of bodyweight per day. That's a difference of a couple orders of magnitude. The dosing for this chemical has been WAY too high, because one of the primary people selling it does not understand the research.


This preliminary study on S-4 in rats found that anabolism in muscle was maxed out at around 0.75 mg or 2.82 mg/kg per day

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040238/

When corrected for body surface area and converted to dosing for humans, the dose that maxes out the anabolic response would be around 0.46 mg/kg. In a 200 lb male, that works out to about 40 mg/day. That may sound low, but it's still 13 times higher than the highest dose they used in the clinical trials. You sure as hell don't need hundreds of mgs per day.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2040234/#R9

Analysis of variance showed no significant difference in the CL of S-4 at doses of 0.5, 1 and 10 mg kg−1 ( p>0.05). Previous in vivo studies in the present authors' laboratory showed that the dose required to restore the levator ani muscle weight in castrated animals, an indicator of anabolic activity, compared with that of intact animals was less than 4 mg kg−1 day−1 (Yin et al. 2003). Thus, S-4 demonstrates linear pharmacokinetics within the dose range needed to exert maximal pharmacological effects.

The lack of parent drug in the urine suggests that S-4 is extensively metabolized. Assuming a hepatic blood flow of 13.8 ml min −1 in the rat (Davies and Morris 1993), the hepatic extraction ratio of S-4 would be less than 0.05. Based on this hepatic extraction ratio, a greater than 95% bioavailability (i.e. less than 5% of the drug would be removed by first-pass metabolism) is predicted. The present results confirmed this prediction, as S-4 was completely bioavailable following pharmacologically relevant doses (i.e. doses ≤ 10 mg kg−1).

The CL of S-4 at a dose of 0.5 mg kg−1 (1.92 ml min−1 kg−1) was significantly ( p<0.001) greater than that observed for the 30 mg kg−1 dose (1.00 ml min−1 kg−1). These data suggest that saturation of the drug-metabolizing enzymes might be occurring at this higher dose. Therefore, one would expect to see further suppression of CL following doses greater than 30 mg kg−1. However, due to the potency of S-4, the authors do not anticipate the need for such high doses during clinical use. Forthcoming data from the present authors' laboratory will provide needed information about the hepatic metabolism and pharmacokinetics of S-4 in this and other species.

The pharmacological activity and pharmacokinetics of S-4 in rats suggest that this compound has the properties of an ideal SARM as defined by Negro-Vilar (1999). It is rapidly absorbed following p.o. doses (tmax, 48−84 min), and it exerts tissue-specific anabolic effects in vivo, with anabolic effects in muscle and bone but lesser effects in the prostate and seminal vesicles (Kearbey et al. 2003, Yin et al. 2003). These properties coupled with forthcoming reports from the present authors' laboratory about the pharmacological effects of S-4 in other pertinent animal models and its pharmacokinetics and metabolism in dogs and humans, favour the continued development of S-4 as an orally bioavailable non-steroidal SARM.

Pharmacokinetics of S-3-(4-acetylamino-phenoxy)-2-hydroxy-2-methyl-N-(4-nitro- 3-trifluoromethyl-phenyl)-propionamide in rats, a non-steroidal selective androgen receptor modulator; Xenobiotica - 34(3):Pages 273-280 - Informa Healthcare

Oral bioavailability was also dose dependent, with the lower doses showing complete oral bioavailability. The half-life of S-4 over the dose range tested was between 2.6 and 5.3h.

Dose translation from animal to human studies revisited

http://www.fasebj.org/cgi/content/full/22/3/659

As the abstract states, "The animal dose should not be extrapolated to a human equivalent dose (HED) by a simple conversion based on body weight..." The FDA has stated that the extrapolation of animal dose to human dose is correctly performed only through normalization to body surface area. To convert mg/kg in rats to mg/kg in humans, you multiply by 0.162 (6/37). For mice to humans, multiply by 0.081 (3/37). There are several other values for other animals.


Again - anabolism in muscle was maxed out at around 0.75 mg or 2.82 mg/kg per day

So do the math - lets say you weigh 90kgs - 90kgs @ 2.85kg = 256.5mg
Convert from rats to human - 256.5x.162 = appx 40mgs

But you took the dosage up to 200mgs per day

My questions are - WHY and ARE YOU CRAZY???

You couuld have PERMANTELY DAMAGED YOUR VISION!!!

[bass]

this stuff have been dosed at 300mgs per day and no one, i mean NO ONE has ever reported a permanent sides...

[endus]

You couuld have PERMANTELY DAMAGED YOUR VISION!!!

You could be right - BUT!!!

You know what type of forum this is right? You do realize that people are taking way too much xxx for 12 weeks and yyy for 4 weeks on top of that and zzz on top of that - all over dosed to a point where in lab test, those doses could cause cancer or whatever in lab rats.

You also realize that people are willing to lose their hair, deal with acne, deal with man boobs and even deal with complete loss of their own Testosterone production?

I realize that some dosage might be too high but if you looks at some AAS threads, you'll see tons of "should I do a lower dosage to avoid sides" and most will say, yes it will lower the sides but will not make you gain anything. We don't know at this point what the limit of S4 is - so you actually have a few lab rats testing its boundary and learning from each rat's experience.

By the way, there's already some logs on other forum that report that even at low dosage that you are talking about - they are having vision issue.

I understand your concern and hopefully no one is harmed by using or testing this on their lab rat but this is not a WebMD forum. cheers

[endus]

Update - last day for this cycle.

As expected, my vision is improving leaps and bound. I could actually see things in the dark. I have my moments where it takes longer to get acclimated but generally its good.

Today was my leg day and set a another record - 350lbx4 on squat and 8 plates x 6 on leg press. One of my better workout!

Tomorrow is shoulder day - no S4

I'll keep this log open for few more weeks with occasional updates - to see if strength goes down or any other anomaly. Cheers

[Little Herc]

How much weight did you gain on your cycle?

[bass]

Update - last day for this cycle.

As expected, my vision is improving leaps and bound. I could actually see things in the dark. I have my moments where it takes longer to get acclimated but generally its good.

Today was my leg day and set a another record - 350lbx4 on squat and 8 plates x 6 on leg press. One of my better workout!

Tomorrow is shoulder day - no S4

I'll keep this log open for few more weeks with occasional updates - to see if strength goes down or any other anomaly. Cheers

endus, my strength is still up, my tennis elbow pain is almost gone. Today i curled 16 plates using cables which is my record for biceps. it’s funny how quick you got the vision sides and how quickly you're recovering, it took me about 10 days to get it and 10 days to get rid of it, this goes to show you that everyone is different...i look forward to seeing some pics…

[endus]

How much weight did you gain on your cycle?

None - I didn't gain or lose weight. If you look at my log, I was on a cutting cycle with about 400+ calorie deficit a day. In normal sense, I should of lost weight but none at all, which is frustrating. But I'm getting harder so hopefully this means I've just gained all lean mass.

[endus]

endus, my strength is still up, my tennis elbow pain is almost gone. Today i curled 16 plates using cables which is my record for biceps. it’s funny how quick you got the vision sides and how quickly you're recovering, it took me about 10 days to get it and 10 days to get rid of it, this goes to show you that everyone is different...i look forward to seeing some pics…

Yes, my vision issue started on 3rd day in and now, its been less than 24 hours since stopping and I'm doing better. This morning was bit worst but I'm not too worry in such a short time.

My elbow tendinitis didn't get better - maybe slightly worst? I think it was due to using heavier weights though.

I forgot - I got an anomaly. Both of my earlobe is swollen and is itchy. I've noticed this when I was taking higher dose - didn't think much of it and last night, it almost looked like cauliflower ear. I took a anti-histamine and it subsided a bit but its still swollen. Its going down now but itchy as hell - I guess higher dose was causing allergic reaction? I've also got some more acne on my face but not like when I started.

[freakinhuge]

great log, thank you so much tons of great information, looks like you are getting really good strength gains.

[endus]

great log, thank you so much tons of great information, looks like you are getting really good strength gains.

Thanks. Before I've started taking S4, I was making a steady gain in strength. Once S4 kicked in, it went up quite a bit, I would say 50% more than it normally would of been. For example, on shoulder press. I was dabbling with one 45 lb plates on each side. If I've just continued without the S4, I probably would of added 5 or 10lb more on each side at this point. With S4, I've just leaped frogged it and went up another 25lb. Leg is different matter - I went way over the board with 8 45lb plates on each side. Before S4, I was doing 5 plates with dabbling toward 6 plates.

So even though I am still skeptical (always am), I would would say it definitely added to my normal progression.

[endus]

Update - Day 4 since stopping S4.

My vision has improved slightly since last update but I still have many of the vision side effect. Here's more detail of vision issue at this point,

1) while driving - I now could see objects on side window. Before I could only see where the light is pointing at diminished rate. I now could see much more scenery and object with just the ambient lights.

2) I now could see the sky - clouds and stars. Before, all I could see was black sky.

3) Yellow/Green Tint is now greatly diminished. I still get some color cycling but only when looking at LCD monitor. The yellow tint is still dominant at Dusk.

4) Everything is still darker than usual - day or night. Its slightly better than before but its kind a depressing when everything is gloomy in color. I would say couple of shade darker than normal (like light sunglass).

It seems like S4 have some appetite suppression. Once I stopped, after 1 day, my appetite increased tremendously. I had to cheat quite a bit to get rid of the craving - then tremendous will power to stay on diet.

Oh and I've injured my forearm - dropped 90lb weight as I was starting my dumbell press - yikes! So I'm taking a day off and lots of pain pill. If I don't workout and stay on track - I tend to fall off fast. So I'm trying my best.

I'm also feeling slightly lethargic - not quite like coming off of aas/ph, but enough to notice. I've also noticed slight decrease in strength and libido - its really too early and its probably more of a placebo effect. I'm getting my blood work done this week and I should have it soon. I don't think it will be too much different as I could tell if something is changed or not.

I'll be on vacation next week and once I come back - I'll be re-starting at 10-20mg a day, pending blood test. This next cycle is strictly to see if libido and appetite suppression effect is valid (hope so) as I don't care too much about strength at this point. At my age, my joint will thank me!


Cheers

[bass]

thanks Endus, sorry to hear about your injury, hopefully you get better during your vacation. i look forward to the blood test results and hopefully some pics!!! have a great one...

[endus]

Update - day 6.5 since stop taking S4.

I got my blood test back - and it looks like it did supress them a bit, but not much. My test is normally low (feel fine though) so drop % is larger than someone who is in higher range. Also note that baseline number is over a year old.

Base Total Serum - 344
New total Serum - 318

Base Free 9.8
New Free Test - 9.6

All are within normal range - though in the lower side.

My vision is still not 100% - still takes a bit to get used to dark. Even in day/lighted situation, its shaded. This morning I had a Ghost of Sarm visit me. I would of thought I wouldn't see that at this point but it came back.

Strange thing is - my workout is now more intense. I was still able to increase weights for my back workout. Hope this will go on till I plateau at much later point.

Cheers

[bass]

thanks for the report Endues, it sounds like what i have experienced, my vision went back to normal after two weeks, but strength is still there...your blood test looks good actually, but do another one after your second cycle and then see what happens, I think your test will go up slightly or at least it’ll stay t he same.

[endus]

I would of guessed that it went down slightly as I felt some lethargy for few days. Its not quite like when I came off PH but still felt it.

I'm probably going to change my plan - I just scored some Havoc/E-stan/bold for super cheap (they are getting banned), so I'll probably do that - maybe add one more item like H or M-drol?.

After this S4 cycle, I do need some change - to have that invincible feeling for 4-6 weeks. Granted, there's bit more side/ lethargy but worth it for a short time - especially in winter for that extra pick me up. I'll use the S4 for PCT which might be good since I never get shutdown much from mild PH cycle.

[endus]

Ok Bass, here are pics. The first pic was 2 years ago - I actually was lot fatter than that - another 20lb, size 38 pants but couldn't find any pics. I guess I've avoided picture taking during that time.

I still have lots of fat around lower waist and lower pecs but everything feels harder - I guess got long way to go to lose more fat. At least I enjoy working out now and look forward to it each day.

My current stats are - I wear size 33-34 and large shirt instead of 38/XL/XXL. Thats most important stats for me! Would love to be 32 though.

[bass]

you did pretty good there Endus, nice loking wheels, shoulders look good too...i look allot like you maybe less BF, but have the same issues, fat aroung my waist and under my pecs, but like you said its getting harder every day, and i also look forward to working out, with this attitude you and i could compete for the title one day!!!

thanks for posting the photos...

[endus]

Day 14 since stopping S4 (last log for this one).

My vision is normal at this point (day 13) - no more green/blue tint, no night vision issue, double vision, ghosting, etc.

This was an interesting experience and hoped you found this helpful. Cheers

[bass]

thanks for everything Endus....great log. glad your back to normal with your vision...

[endus]

No prob Bass. Even though it was good, I'm glad its over. I think I'm going to stick with ph/aas for now. Didn't realize how much I miss full vision.

By the way, I bought extra S4's that I haven't used - let me know if anyone wants it cheap or trade.

[adam15425]

By the way, I bought extra S4's that I haven't used - let me know if anyone wants it cheap or trade.

Dibs! PM'd you Endus